New Power Bash Scaling.

MindOfTheSwarm

Here is comments on the new Power Bash being considered bash damage.

“In efforts to inject some life into an incredibly niche play style, we've significantly amped up the viability of Bash builds by giving them a true spammable. We are aware of how much power is behind Bash builds, however, so we'll be keeping a close eye on this functionality and see if we need to tone down the base damage to make up for its ability to stack with new bonuses.”

I personally think this was a very silly move, it is inevitable that the base damage of this skill will be nerfed as people stack bash damage and resistances. This will mean that any viable sword and board DPS build goes out of the window.
Bash damage should scale with Weapon Damage and Max Stamina like it used to.
Having high resistance players and tanks deal high amounts of damage will only result in nerfs. This will ultimately make a ‘niche’ play-style an obsolete one.
Sword and Board DPS is now viable with bash glyphs and Deadlands Set. Having bash scale with resistances will only lead to heavy armor users abusing it in PvP.
The eventual nerfs will lead to both heavy armor players and medium armor players abandoning the play style.
I can see it coming and calling it now.

Mephilis78

Sounds about right lol

This, and this game in particular, is why I started hating metas and MMO PvP, all together.

xylena_lazarow

I'm likewise uncomfortable with the idea of buffing your damage by wearing Pariah, but at least these builds have always been all-in one trick ponies, if you can deal with their bash spam, nothing else they do hurts, they're just annoyingly tanky like most everything else you'll encounter. If it turns out there's another epidemic of players dropping dead to two GCDs of bashing, they'll nerf it for sure.

I wish they would take advantage of having four different 1h weapons and allow them to affect your weapon line passives to slant your SnB setup more offensive or defensive. Swords could increase damage while reducing the buffs to your blocking effectiveness, maces could do the opposite, or whatever. Puncture also used to feel really good as a spammable, much smoother to weave with than Power Slam.

divnyi

Scaling with armour is really tiny, at least from my experience. But yeah scales with heavy pieces, as you get 1% bash damage per piece in passive.

And yes, I think that bash will be OP in PvP in the next patch.

Do I see it as a big problem? Not really, bash weaving would be one hell to master, it's the opposite of heavy attack builds in terms of actions per second. Also it's point blank and non-target.

Extinct_Solo_Player

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I'm likewise uncomfortable with the idea of buffing your damage by wearing Pariah, but at least these builds have always been all-in one trick ponies, if you can deal with their bash spam, nothing else they do hurts, they're just annoyingly tanky like most everything else you'll encounter. If it turns out there's another epidemic of players dropping dead to two GCDs of bashing, they'll nerf it for sure.

I wish they would take advantage of having four different 1h weapons and allow them to affect your weapon line passives to slant your SnB setup more offensive or defensive. Swords could increase damage while reducing the buffs to your blocking effectiveness, maces could do the opposite, or whatever. Puncture also used to feel really good as a spammable, much smoother to weave with than Power Slam.

Yeah, All they had to do was actually bring up one of the puncture morphs and low slash morphs up to the damage standards of other spammables like surprise attack but i guess that's asking for too much these days.

MindOfTheSwarm

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I'm likewise uncomfortable with the idea of buffing your damage by wearing Pariah, but at least these builds have always been all-in one trick ponies, if you can deal with their bash spam, nothing else they do hurts, they're just annoyingly tanky like most everything else you'll encounter. If it turns out there's another epidemic of players dropping dead to two GCDs of bashing, they'll nerf it for sure.

I wish they would take advantage of having four different 1h weapons and allow them to affect your weapon line passives to slant your SnB setup more offensive or defensive. Swords could increase damage while reducing the buffs to your blocking effectiveness, maces could do the opposite, or whatever. Puncture also used to feel really good as a spammable, much smoother to weave with than Power Slam.

Yeah, All they had to do was actually bring up one of the puncture morphs and low slash morphs up to the damage standards of other spammables like surprise attack but i guess that's asking for too much these days.

Disagree with this idea. I like Power Bash as the spammable as it allows the opportunity for a shield maiden style of play. However, I have always felt that Deep Slash could apply a 10 second Bleed to all enemies hit. This would give Sword and Board a DoT which would help its damage. While Heroic Slash would maintain its tank value.
Also, I would change Ransack and make it an execute. Maybe call it Finishing Thrust.
Reverberating Bash I would keep as a defensive morph.
Now you have the following:
Power Slam: DPS spammable
Ransack: Execute
Deep Slash: AoE and DoT.

You could even allow Reverberating Bash keep its Resistance scaling. But having both morphs scale in such a way destroys the possibility of Medium armor and Light armor users from running Power Slam.

katorga

divnyi wrote: »

Scaling with armour is really tiny, at least from my experience. But yeah scales with heavy pieces, as you get 1% bash damage per piece in passive.

And yes, I think that bash will be OP in PvP in the next patch.

Do I see it as a big problem? Not really, bash weaving would be one hell to master, it's the opposite of heavy attack builds in terms of actions per second. Also it's point blank and non-target.

I really don't get it. This will not be a problem. You can do a bash build right now. You don't need the changes to power bash to make it work. How many people use it....hardly any. The reason? Even on a necro with a bash ultimate it does less damage than a spin2win build, and it is less efficient. Next patch will be a healing meta. What does a bash build do? Wreck your healing power.

(Neat bug. I tried this build the last patch when they made bash .3s. Map bash to your mouse wheel and you don't block or move at block speed. You can queue bashes so fast, the server will kick you for "excessive messaging". It happened so often on my necro, I dropped the build. )

runa_gate

katorga wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Scaling with armour is really tiny, at least from my experience. But yeah scales with heavy pieces, as you get 1% bash damage per piece in passive.

And yes, I think that bash will be OP in PvP in the next patch.

Do I see it as a big problem? Not really, bash weaving would be one hell to master, it's the opposite of heavy attack builds in terms of actions per second. Also it's point blank and non-target.

I really don't get it. This will not be a problem. You can do a bash build right now. You don't need the changes to power bash to make it work. How many people use it....hardly any. The reason? Even on a necro with a bash ultimate it does less damage than a spin2win build, and it is less efficient)

The idea is a static defense point build against immovable/resto staff ball groups, able to spam a cone of interrupt that in no other situation is particularly useful.... but one of the few counters to the groups that purposefully use lag to farm AP.

Succuby

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Here is comments on the new Power Bash being considered bash damage.

“In efforts to inject some life into an incredibly niche play style, we've significantly amped up the viability of Bash builds by giving them a true spammable. We are aware of how much power is behind Bash builds, however, so we'll be keeping a close eye on this functionality and see if we need to tone down the base damage to make up for its ability to stack with new bonuses.”

I personally think this was a very silly move, it is inevitable that the base damage of this skill will be nerfed as people stack bash damage and resistances. This will mean that any viable sword and board DPS build goes out of the window.
Bash damage should scale with Weapon Damage and Max Stamina like it used to.
Having high resistance players and tanks deal high amounts of damage will only result in nerfs. This will ultimately make a ‘niche’ play-style an obsolete one.
Sword and Board DPS is now viable with bash glyphs and Deadlands Set. Having bash scale with resistances will only lead to heavy armor users abusing it in PvP.
The eventual nerfs will lead to both heavy armor players and medium armor players abandoning the play style.
I can see it coming and calling it now.

Tanks do exist in this game TOO.

You take tanks procs damage sets away - now want to take sword and board damage to DPS.

Give some DPS to tanks than, some thing !

I can passivly do 10-15 k dps on tank before, 20-30k with some rotation, now i can only do it on bash, i do not agree that some thing i already have before was taken away - give some thing the same as before than !

divnyi

katorga wrote: »

Next patch will be a healing meta. What does a bash build do?

If they release it in the current state with hybrid heals, my build will do nothing, as I will find a better game to play.

If your argument is that bashes are balanced because heals are broken, then it means that bashes aren't balanced.

etchedpixels

It's the same problem as every other single speciality trick in this game. The game developers make things scale linearly.

If stacking a particular resource or resistance got harder then more you did it we'd get rid of most of the 'if I stack 14,000 X and stand on one leg I can one-shot people from stealth with bash' problems and actually get a far more balanced game.

umagon

From my testing bash and powerslam using mighty chudan, deadlands demolisher, aetherial ascension, 3 infused bashing glyphs, and resistance potions. At 48k resistance I found that bash only did about 6,931 damage to world npcs with major breach placed on them. And the tool tip for power slam was only 11,249 damage. In pvp that damage would be cut by battle sprit and then cut again by players’ armor resistance. Then further reduced by players' active healing.

When maximizing for static armor resistances and stacking bashing glyphs it has negative impacts on the amount of stamina/magicka regeneration the build has. And the health value was only about 33K and the stamina value was about 30k.

Then there are negative impacts from running the aetherial ascension set and the build doesn’t have much healing output potential as the health is kind of low for driving health based heals and there isn’t any significate amount weapon/spell damage on the build to drive skill based heals.

Just looking at the numbers just stacking high amounts armor resistances and bash damage isn’t going have the type of impact in pvp as some would think. Even with stacking bash glyphs and sets one would need to also increase their weapon/spell damage to do any amount of damage that would matter in pvp.

MindOfTheSwarm

Succuby wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Here is comments on the new Power Bash being considered bash damage.

“In efforts to inject some life into an incredibly niche play style, we've significantly amped up the viability of Bash builds by giving them a true spammable. We are aware of how much power is behind Bash builds, however, so we'll be keeping a close eye on this functionality and see if we need to tone down the base damage to make up for its ability to stack with new bonuses.”

I personally think this was a very silly move, it is inevitable that the base damage of this skill will be nerfed as people stack bash damage and resistances. This will mean that any viable sword and board DPS build goes out of the window.
Bash damage should scale with Weapon Damage and Max Stamina like it used to.
Having high resistance players and tanks deal high amounts of damage will only result in nerfs. This will ultimately make a ‘niche’ play-style an obsolete one.
Sword and Board DPS is now viable with bash glyphs and Deadlands Set. Having bash scale with resistances will only lead to heavy armor users abusing it in PvP.
The eventual nerfs will lead to both heavy armor players and medium armor players abandoning the play style.
I can see it coming and calling it now.

Tanks do exist in this game TOO.

You take tanks procs damage sets away - now want to take sword and board damage to DPS.

Give some DPS to tanks than, some thing !

I can passivly do 10-15 k dps on tank before, 20-30k with some rotation, now i can only do it on bash, i do not agree that some thing i already have before was taken away - give some thing the same as before than !

This literally doesn’t make any sense. “Now want to take sword and board damage to DPS.” Damage has always been dependant on your Stam and Weapon Damage. So what is being taken away from Tank damage? If anything the new way bash work gives tanks more damage. But this bad for a few reasons:

1. Tanks in PvP will still be hella difficult to kill but now they’ll be putting out more burst damage. This will be broken. If Power Bash base damage gets nerfed to compensate then nothing has changed from how things are now. But it will lead to my next point:

2. By making Power Bash scale with resistances as it appears to be, you are basically bottlenecking the skill into high resistance builds only. This restricts build options rather than opening them up. After the inevitable nerfs, the usage of the skill will end up virtually 0.

3. If the devs want tanks to put out more damage then they should return the Wrath passive to heavy armor albeit not as strong as its previous incarnation.

Having Power Bash scale with resistances will only serve to kill it as an option in the long run. Not just for people who don’t stack resistances but even for those players that do. It WILL get nerfed. If on the off chance it doesn’t, it will quickly become the meta for PvP. In either case, it pushes Power Bash into one dimensional territory, which is a bad idea.

Succuby

umagon wrote: »

From my testing bash and powerslam using mighty chudan, deadlands demolisher, aetherial ascension, 3 infused bashing glyphs, and resistance potions. At 48k resistance I found that bash only did about 6,931 damage to world npcs with major breach placed on them. And the tool tip for power slam was only 11,249 damage. In pvp that damage would be cut by battle sprit and then cut again by players’ armor resistance. Then further reduced by players' active healing.

When maximizing for static armor resistances and stacking bashing glyphs it has negative impacts on the amount of stamina/magicka regeneration the build has. And the health value was only about 33K and the stamina value was about 30k.

Then there are negative impacts from running the aetherial ascension set and the build doesn’t have much healing output potential as the health is kind of low for driving health based heals and there isn’t any significate amount weapon/spell damage on the build to drive skill based heals.

Just looking at the numbers just stacking high amounts armor resistances and bash damage isn’t going have the type of impact in pvp as some would think. Even with stacking bash glyphs and sets one would need to also increase their weapon/spell damage to do any amount of damage that would matter in pvp.

TY for numbers, i ll check it on life. To lazy test it now on test server

Because i already have it on live and on pts need to do it 😊

MindOfTheSwarm

I would not care if at least one of the morphs of Power Bash maintained its standard scaling. But having both morphs scale in such a way is like saying, “This skill is for tanks only, everyone else tough luck.”

katorga

divnyi wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Next patch will be a healing meta. What does a bash build do?

If they release it in the current state with hybrid heals, my build will do nothing, as I will find a better game to play.

If your argument is that bashes are balanced because heals are broken, then it means that bashes aren't balanced.

My argument is that bash builds are not broken, or they would be everywhere right now.

My second argument is that bash builds in next chapter will be in direct opposition to the prevailing meta because to build for bash, you nerf your healing potential.

Actually this is a nerf. If powerbash scales off resistances, the skill is nerfed for builds stacking max damage. Which is most of them.

umagon

From my testing power slam does not scale off of armor resistances. The base game bash does but only small amount. Power slam on pts scales the same as it does on live, it just works now with the heavy armor passives, bash glyphs, and bash enhancing sets. You do not need heavy armor or high amounts of resistance to make a dps build using power slam. You just stack weapon damage like usual.

Necrotech_Master

umagon wrote: »

From my testing power slam does not scale off of armor resistances. The base game bash does but only small amount. Power slam on pts scales the same as it does on live, it just works now with the heavy armor passives, bash glyphs, and bash enhancing sets. You do not need heavy armor or high amounts of resistance to make a dps build using power slam. You just stack weapon damage like usual.

this is kind of how i was reading the patch note

the dmg type was changed to "bash" so that it would count for various bonuses that affect bash

MindOfTheSwarm

umagon wrote: »

From my testing power slam does not scale off of armor resistances. The base game bash does but only small amount. Power slam on pts scales the same as it does on live, it just works now with the heavy armor passives, bash glyphs, and bash enhancing sets. You do not need heavy armor or high amounts of resistance to make a dps build using power slam. You just stack weapon damage like usual.

If this is true then, the patch note comments seemed misleading. It read to me like it scaled with resistances.

divnyi

katorga wrote: »

Which is most of them.

All 3.5 of them?

We don't see bash a lot because bash is hard to build and tricky to use. But it's honestly not bad in the current meta, I have several builds that are fairly strong (well I think you seen them already).

Bash spammable is a huge DPS booster here, and bash spam is DPS pressure tool already. I expect it to become tier1 at the very least. Just a speculation, sure.

Ragnaroek93

This skill is totally overbuffed and it's a complete comedy that a weapon skill spammable (from a defensive skill line on top of that) will outperform almost all class spammables once again.

MindOfTheSwarm

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

This skill is totally overbuffed and it's a complete comedy that a weapon skill spammable (from a defensive skill line on top of that) will outperform almost all class spammables once again.

This was my worry. If it’s base damage gets nerfed so it is in line with other spammables, it will only mean that it is viable if running 3 infused bash glyphs. This only serves to make it a non-option for anything but bash builds.

umagon

Without any gear other than a one hand weapon/shield, with no champ points, passives or gear that increase the damage to bash; power slam only does 182 more damage than surprise attack. There isn’t a large difference in the base damage. Power slam picks up a bulk of its damage from the deadly bash passive. With that passive it adds about 30% damage to the attack. If anything was to be adjusted it should be the deadly bash passive.

VarisVaris

umagon wrote: »

Without any gear other than a one hand weapon/shield, with no champ points, passives or gear that increase the damage to bash; power slam only does 182 more damage than surprise attack. There isn’t a large difference in the base damage. Power slam picks up a bulk of its damage from the deadly bash passive. With that passive it adds about 30% damage to the attack. If anything was to be adjusted it should be the deadly bash passive.

No.
Deadly Bash is totally fine, just like bash damage glyphs or deadlands demolished.


There is only one issue and that is that the Devs randomly overbuffed power Slam.
There is no reason to change anything other than reverting the change to power Slam to be buffed by the former mentioned sources.

umagon

VarisVaris wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Without any gear other than a one hand weapon/shield, with no champ points, passives or gear that increase the damage to bash; power slam only does 182 more damage than surprise attack. There isn’t a large difference in the base damage. Power slam picks up a bulk of its damage from the deadly bash passive. With that passive it adds about 30% damage to the attack. If anything was to be adjusted it should be the deadly bash passive.

No.
Deadly Bash is totally fine, just like bash damage glyphs or deadlands demolished.


There is only one issue and that is that the Devs randomly overbuffed power Slam.
There is no reason to change anything other than reverting the change to power Slam to be buffed by the former mentioned sources.

There isn’t a need to revert the change to make power slam function with bash enhancing items. I have looked at the numbers and they are not extreme as some people claim they are. Stacking all infused bashing glyphs, using heavy armor and the bash enhancing sets all come at cost. I have yet to see anyone post one of these “over buffed” power slam builds that isn’t just some screen cap of a tool tip damage.

I don’t think either deadly bash or power slam need to be changed based on the numbers I have seen in pts. All I am saying is if zos were going to adjust anything it would be better done at the passive level. Power slam functioning as bash allows for new build combos both currently and in the future.

Veg

Power Bash probably wont be that great in pvp. The cost of spamming bash on top of anything else that costs stamina is simply too great. Bash builds are already at their peak, it's just not stam builds that can use them.

https://imgur.com/vzGb34g

VarisVaris

umagon wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Without any gear other than a one hand weapon/shield, with no champ points, passives or gear that increase the damage to bash; power slam only does 182 more damage than surprise attack. There isn’t a large difference in the base damage. Power slam picks up a bulk of its damage from the deadly bash passive. With that passive it adds about 30% damage to the attack. If anything was to be adjusted it should be the deadly bash passive.

No.
Deadly Bash is totally fine, just like bash damage glyphs or deadlands demolished.


There is only one issue and that is that the Devs randomly overbuffed power Slam.
There is no reason to change anything other than reverting the change to power Slam to be buffed by the former mentioned sources.

There isn’t a need to revert the change to make power slam function with bash enhancing items. I have looked at the numbers and they are not extreme as some people claim they are. Stacking all infused bashing glyphs, using heavy armor and the bash enhancing sets all come at cost. I have yet to see anyone post one of these “over buffed” power slam builds that isn’t just some screen cap of a tool tip damage.

I don’t think either deadly bash or power slam need to be changed based on the numbers I have seen in pts. All I am saying is if zos were going to adjust anything it would be better done at the passive level. Power slam functioning as bash allows for new build combos both currently and in the future.

Building for full bash damage is a waste, 1 set and 2 bash glyphs is all you need.
On a proper build this will still give you a +15k TT on power slam without the 33% boost.

The only thing that makes it look less op on the pts is that ZOS thought it was a good idea to shove even more buffs up the bottoms of magplars and magdks.
However it still is completely broken and desperately needs to be reverted.

Ragnaroek93

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

This skill is totally overbuffed and it's a complete comedy that a weapon skill spammable (from a defensive skill line on top of that) will outperform almost all class spammables once again.

This was my worry. If it’s base damage gets nerfed so it is in line with other spammables, it will only mean that it is viable if running 3 infused bash glyphs. This only serves to make it a non-option for anything but bash builds.

It kinda HAS to be in line with other spammables for balance reasons tho. I'd even say that it has to be WORSE than class spammables because ZOS themselves stated that they want class abilities to be ~20% stronger than weapon skills. Then you have to consider that sword and board is a defensive skill line which means that it shouldn't be optimal for dealing damage to begin with. This is definitely not the case on the PTS, powerslam is significantly stronger than surprise attack for example. Class identity just gets ruined even further with each patch.

A much better solution would be to just give classes proper class spammables. Running your class spammable on a defensive weapon results in bad to mediocre damage, running it on an offensive weapon should result in good damage. That's balance in my opinion. Balance is not to give sword and board both great defense and offense.

Urzigurumash

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Balance is not to give sword and board both great defense and offense.

Hmm, but all of the offensive weapon lines offer some form of mediocre defense - Blade Cloak, Hasty Retreat, Frost Staff, Rally. Some combination of Bow + DW + 2H is optimal for LOS, which is the best defense of all. I don't see why the possibility of SnB offense is necessarily contrary to the potential for class identity. Warden and Frost Staff, for instance.

Understood that a 20k tooltip spammable isn't the same as a few seconds of 10% Crit Damage taken, but you get my point. I don't have any specific comment about this post other than I haven't seen Explosive Rebuke once in PvP since it got Resistance scaling, not that it was ever common.

MindOfTheSwarm

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

This skill is totally overbuffed and it's a complete comedy that a weapon skill spammable (from a defensive skill line on top of that) will outperform almost all class spammables once again.

This was my worry. If it’s base damage gets nerfed so it is in line with other spammables, it will only mean that it is viable if running 3 infused bash glyphs. This only serves to make it a non-option for anything but bash builds.

It kinda HAS to be in line with other spammables for balance reasons tho. I'd even say that it has to be WORSE than class spammables because ZOS themselves stated that they want class abilities to be ~20% stronger than weapon skills. Then you have to consider that sword and board is a defensive skill line which means that it shouldn't be optimal for dealing damage to begin with. This is definitely not the case on the PTS, powerslam is significantly stronger than surprise attack for example. Class identity just gets ruined even further with each patch.

A much better solution would be to just give classes proper class spammables. Running your class spammable on a defensive weapon results in bad to mediocre damage, running it on an offensive weapon should result in good damage. That's balance in my opinion. Balance is not to give sword and board both great defense and offense.

I think you missed my point. I meant that bring it down to be in line with other spammable WHILE full specced for bash damage. This means that non bash builds can’t use it effectively.
Bash damage should scale with weapon and spell damage as should Power Bash and morphs. Having it scale with resistances is not wise in my opinion.
Also, I think it should be fine to have sword and board do decent damage. A damage dealer usually has to wear medium or light and put all their stats into one of their resources. A fully specced DPS build is not going to get much mileage out of the defensive value sword and board offers.
No one is saying every skill in the line should match other weapon lines, but bash builds is how you can make sword and board DPS viable. It’s the correct direction.
What is wrong, is having Power Slam count as bash damage as it will scale with bash glyphs heavily. I suppose it does mean smaller numbers on any other skill. So in the long run we will have to wait and see.

My concern is that if nerfs come it will kill off any viability of bash builds altogether which shuts down diversity when building characters and shoeboxes everything into cookie cutter builds that everyone runs.

katorga

It is a wash. If powerbash scales with max damage/resource and uses bash glyphs, then the two basically cancel each other out. You use 3x bash glyphs you lose *multi-use* 3x damage glyphs losing both damage and healing power.

I'm surprised powerbash still scales with damage/resource, I read the pts notes and tooltip to mean it would scale off resistances like bash damage does.