Rele and Kinras need changes....

Brrrofski

...to the description of the 5 piece. And all other sets that use stacks from light attacks.

I've recently started on Xbox NA (usually play EU), and some of the stuff I've seen in dungeons has blown my mind (one guy did a whole dungeon with just 1 sword...).

One of the big ones I'm seeing a lot of, that I haven't before, is people and light attacks.

I've been doing pledges recently and come across a lot of people whoo are light attacking like 90% of the time.

So I started paying more attention to them while healing. I see a lot of players light attacking ONLY, then it procs Kinras, they do some skills (usually without weaving) for a few seconds until Kinras drops off, then go back to light attacking.

And I mean I've seen some variant of this about 8 or 9 times this fortnight alone. Not one offs, but consistently seeing it

Being CP 500 something, and do the lion share of the damage as a healer is really rage inducing.

I mean, the wording is quite clear to me, but maybe not for other people?

merpins

That doesn't mean sets that gain stacks through light attacks need changing. That means those people need to learn how to light attack weave. I've seen some terrible dps', some as high level as cp 1200. But I've also seen terrible tanks and terrible healers, and then people that are super kitted out and rush ahead clearing random normals faster than lower level players can even keep up: should they reduce movement speed to help reduce that problem? No. Kinras is fine, possibly slightly over-tuned but the mechanic isn't the problem with the set.

This isn't a moment where we should be nerfing sets to bring up the dps of people that aren't learning the game, as that's just going to further push the game towards the casual market. And being casual-friendly is good! But it can alienate longtime players. This is a teaching moment where showing players that don't know about mechanics like animation canceling can really help someone out. Some people will get offended at your want to help them learn game mechanics, but players that actually want to learn to be better at the game would appreciate the help from a veteran player, I guarantee you that.

preevious

I don't really see your point.

In any game, there will be players uninterested in learning the finer points of the system.
It's well within their rights, and those people are perfectly fine.

They'll still be competent enough for normal/base game vet content.


Does that means that those sets are badly designed? No. Actually, the aforementioned people use them quite logically, and it's enjoyable for them. No everyone needs to be at the top of their game.

RealLoveBVB

Some players are lazy or only want to bother with one button (same as those heavy attacking guys). So they just lean back and press left mouse button and have equipped sets that advantage their "playstyle".

colossalvoids

I'm pretty sure it's not really about people not understanding the tooltips which are pretty clear even for non primarily english speaker. It's more about generally people aren't putting much effort and doing things the way they've personally choose. Let them la their way through normals as they've no intention to improve in anything but leech experience and gear.

Brrrofski

People just read titles, don't they?

Where did I say these sets needed to be nerfed? lol.

I'm saying, clearly some people are misunderstanding descriptions of some sets qhd are just light attacking. I don't think they think you need to hit 5 in 5 seconds. So that's all they do for 5 seconds.

proprio.meb16_ESO

You did write a misleading title with three points of suspension, ending the phrase in the first post, what did you expect? A sweetroll?

As anyone else, I entered the thread prepared to read the umpteenth rant of a player who does not like a couple sets and want them to be nerfed

Brrrofski

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

You did write a misleading title with three points of suspension, ending the phrase in the first post, what did you expect? A sweetroll?

As anyone else, I entered the thread prepared to read the umpteenth rant of a player who does not like a couple sets and want them to be nerfed

Haha, yeh, I did.

But it was to prove a point that people don't read things property, much like the tooltips of sets in game.

proprio.meb16_ESO

Yeah, the lightweave being a feature and not a bug is nowhere explained, you learn it by other players and by yourself as soon as you start to be kicked from groups for not doing enough damage (and you decide to check online).

It's common that newbies and even less newbies are unaware of it and are confused by tooltips... i think, though, the solution is not to enhance tooltips, but to properly address how to fight in this game

Brrrofski

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, the lightweave being a feature and not a bug is nowhere explained, you learn it by other players and by yourself as soon as you start to be kicked from groups for not doing enough damage (and you decide to check online).

It's common that newbies and even less newbies are unaware of it and are confused by tooltips... i think, though, the solution is not to enhance tooltips, but to properly address how to fight in this game

There was a CP 2470 just doing light attacks for 5 seconds, skills for 5 seconds, light attack for 5 seconds, skills for 5 seconds etc.

In vet unhallowed grave. It's one of the most frustrating things I've encountered in 7 years or playing the game.

And he was just one I've seen. There's been plenty more.

So it's not just noobies.

I whispered him trying to explain, and because I'm only 600 cp or something on this sever he just said "you're new, you'll learn the game".

And then he just ignored me. I wasn't mean in what I said at all either.

The tooltips of these sets doesn't need much changing. Just like "once every 5 seconds" thrown in.

You can't educate every player you come across. I think the game needs to help with that.

Because I see too many people just light attacking to get a Kinras or rele stack before they even do skills. And I think it's how the tooltip is worded.

colossalvoids

I remember that Devs opinion on that matter (in-game explanation of weaving) is kind of "muddy" in a sense, on one hand they're encouraging it and see a benefit of (talks with devs, patch notes and other non in-game communication) but on the other one don't want to force it onto players that probably have no use for it and won't be really interested in learning. I'm fine with this balance myself and learned it first time rather intuitively but an in-game option at least can be plucked somewhere in help menu or some similar place where info is available but not forced on players.

proprio.meb16_ESO

However you change the tooltip it will still confuse a player who doesn't know what lightweaving is...

The issue here (with kinra's) is that you get a stack lasting 5s when you lightweave, and 5 stacks start the effect, so as soon as it kicks in you just need to do 5 la every 5s to keep that reassuring orange aura on...
Ofc no dd that knows anything about weaving will ever drop 5la+5skill+5la+... it would keep aura on, but it would be a quite poor move, not to use worse words.
That cp2400 must be some newbie playing with his elder brother account (now that i think about it, it could be my kid once he'll be old enough to play eso )... but it could also be someone who just did pve content and never had to worry about his dps before, who knows...

I think the main reason is that the game does not tell you at all how to fight... some kind of tutorial would probably be sufficient.

Coatmagic

The only change I can see needs to be made to the 'frisbee' sets is a toggle to be able to turn off that awful effect.

Troodon80

I've said it numerous times, but this is exactly when meta is not meta. Players read a guide without doing any real work, they see some content creator say "Bahsei + Kinras" and this is the end result. Players using meta/best in slot gear and not knowing how to utilise it.

The game is never going to hand those sets to players on a silver platter. It's expected that if you can do the content, you can work out how to use them. Several content creators out there have guides on light attack weaving. People simply don't care or are misinformed. Worse still, if you attempt to correct/help them, they'll tell you that you know nothing of the game and can get downright nasty with insults, etc. Don't give unsoliticed advice. It's not worth your sanity. It can really suck the fun out of doing multi-player content.

rauyran

Brrrofski wrote: »

I mean, the wording is quite clear to me, but maybe not for other people?

Yes, it's quite clear and doesn't need to be changed.

orgin_stadia

If the game actually gave some feedback on how well people are doing then the text of these sets wouldn't be an issue.

Would be nice if players got realtime feedback from the base game to steer them into proper weaving. And a dps indicator wouldn't hurt either. (For those without addons)

A status window at the end of a dungeon/trial would be nice as well. With statistics like total damage done per player, heals, number of deaths and whatnot. Perhaps even a weighted score for each role.

K9002

orgin_stadia wrote: »

If the game actually gave some feedback on how well people are doing then the text of these sets wouldn't be an issue.

Would be nice if players got realtime feedback from the base game to steer them into proper weaving. And a dps indicator wouldn't hurt either. (For those without addons)

A status window at the end of a dungeon/trial would be nice as well. With statistics like total damage done per player, heals, number of deaths and whatnot. Perhaps even a weighted score for each role.

The lack of a built-in DPS meter is a poor excuse. The game already offers floating damage numbers and the option to turn on enemy health display, both total number and percentage. Everyone can have a decent estimate of their real DPS by looking at a public dungeon boss and noting its total health, then counting how long will it take to kill it. Then you divide that health by your kill time and wham - you know your effective damage. The same goes for estimating other people's damage. You don't need to know specific numbers when you observe a single player melting a delve boss in 2-3 seconds. You can also see your group's combined damage in real time if you briefly stop attacking and look at how quickly (or slowly) the bar and numbers go down. Then you join in on the fight and see if it goes noticeably faster.

People won't see what they don't want to see, even if readily provided with feedback. And very commonly people don't want to see a whole lot.

orgin_stadia

K9002 wrote: »

The lack of a built-in DPS meter is a poor excuse. The game already offers floating damage numbers and the option to turn on enemy health display, both total number and percentage. Everyone can have a decent estimate of their real DPS by looking at a public dungeon boss and noting its total health, then counting how long will it take to kill it. Then you divide that health by your kill time and wham - you know your effective damage. The same goes for estimating other people's damage. You don't need to know specific numbers when you observe a single player melting a delve boss in 2-3 seconds. You can also see your group's combined damage in real time if you briefly stop attacking and look at how quickly (or slowly) the bar and numbers go down. Then you join in on the fight and see if it goes noticeably faster.

People won't see what they don't want to see, even if readily provided with feedback. And very commonly people don't want to see a whole lot.

If the current facilities were enough then this wouldn't be an issue. And evidently there is an issue, ergo it's not enough.

I mean how many years will this have to continue for you to realize that, okey the current way to do this is not a good way to deal with this issue.

If people don't sit in chairs made of course concrete then perhaps you have a design issue that you need to look into.

Sometimes you simply have to adapt your product to the user and not the other way around.

Fennwitty

Regardless of specific sets or bonuses, I am ALWAYS in favor of clarifying the game's tooltips.

This game can be exceptionally confusing merely because of poor descriptions.

For recent examples, see many of the Endeavors -- which appear to use 'internal' definitions for things players don't, and besides that have factual inaccuracies about which monsters can actually trigger them.

proprio.meb16_ESO

I don't find Kinras's tooltip too cryptic... as long as you know how to weave it's perfectly clear:

Dealing damage with a Light or Heavy Attack grants you a stack of Burning Heart for 5 seconds, up to 5 stacks. While you have 5 stacks, you generate an aura of wrath, granting you Major Berserk, increasing your damage done by 10%. While you have an aura of wrath, allies within 12 meters of you gain Minor Berserk, increasing their damage done by 5%.

How would you rephrase it?

colossalvoids

Actually going back to the topic... It might be localisation issue in some of the languages we're not aware of.

I remember when russian one came I saw screenshot of tooltips and sets when it was initially released and knowing russian some were a total mess translation wise. Even recently when we were doing some small achievements in dlc dungeons we noticed that one in castle thorn was actually described incorrectly on German client stating you need HM whilst in reality it was just vet while English one was stating it clearly. Could be same issue in some particular language.

etchedpixels

Brrrofski wrote: »

I mean, the wording is quite clear to me, but maybe not for other people?

Except for harder content about the only thing they could do to make it clearer would be "Wear medusa instead"

There are lots of people who can't usefully light attack weave because of disability, lag, practivce and the like. If they try and wear the "one true build" meta setup designed for top end players they get into a mess.

IMHO the problem isn't that people can't weave well it's that people follow the alleged vet trial eliite streamer meta and assume that it will magically make them awesome at everything. Whereas in fact Kinras sucks for solo and most four man content. You can give someone a fender strat, it doesn't mean they can now play guitar like Jimi Hendrix.

There are plenty of better builds for people trying to master the game, or for those who don't want to spend days pounding on dummies to do the hardest content.

Everest_Lionheart

That Kinras tooltip is misleading as hell though. 5 seconds is actually 4 seconds. Try doing more than 3 skills on your backbar with perfect LA weaving and you will lose the proc often. If you are front barring this set you had better get used to a more dynamic rotation or a static rotation with a lot of bar swapping. And then there are trials like VKA hard modes where you do a crazy amount of blocking. If you block while in the back bar portion of the rotation you lose the stacks and have to start over if you block cast and accidentally bash you lose the stacks as well. It’s quite unforgiving and takes high skill to use front bar.

New stam players are better off running it on the body and throwing a set like PON on the front that will proc every 10 seconds as long as they don’t sit on the backbar the whole time. Yes it’s a DPS loss from the meta, but in reality it’s a DPS gain because your proc will be up 100% of the time even if you weave slow.

Mag players may be better served my Tzogvin or Medusa. You gain the extra slot because you don’t have to run channeled or trap and the shield or heal you slot there will keep you alive. If you ply magplar just skip Kinras all together and run Deadly strikes. The 2K dps loss is worth not having the manage to proc. For other classes you can also run PON which is especially strong in fights with adds. It’s about a 3-4K DPS loss as well versus 100% Kinras uptime but again it’s a set you don’t have to manage when there’s lots of mechs going on.

To make Kinras worthwhile on the average player it needs a better proc condition. Increase the stacks to 10 but make it last 10 seconds. Longer ramp up time, but easier to maintain through mechanics. That won’t solve the problem of the players that LA for the whole fight though 🤣

kringled_1

I'm not sure which set you mean by PON?

fizl101

kringled_1 wrote: »

I'm not sure which set you mean by PON?

Pillar of Nirn I would assume

kringled_1

Right, thank you. Somehow I couldn't remember that one.

Everest_Lionheart

kringled_1 wrote: »

Right, thank you. Somehow I couldn't remember that one.

Yes Pillar of Nirn. Which consequently is BiS on Stamden with Dro’Zakar on the body but also requires that you stack multiple bleeds. I believe 7 bleeds is the max you can stack and keeping 7 up at all times is even harder to maintain than Kinras.

Darkstorne

Those players are fine! Sure, dungeons might be slower, but if you're not wiping it's no problem. Not every player wants to maximise DPS. Most just want to maximise fun, however that works for them

This is why I'm really happy about Belharza's Band too. It caters specifically to these players, raising the floor. It's not best in slot, but doesn't have to be.

I'm a healer so I see a lot of these players too. Bow users are quite common la/ha players! I don't mind when I'm doing 50%+ of the group DPS. I only mind if it's in vet dungeons and people are wiping from ignoring mechanics.

MaraxusTheOrc

Doesn’t seem like it’s an issue ZoS is responsible for. The set works as intended and is good in the right hands. The problem is when people look for cookie cutter builds and see Rele and Kinra’s as pseudo-BiS, then feel compelled to run a set they aren’t equipped to run. It’s a community problem.

Influencers need to do a better job of explaining and setting expectations with their “ZOMG BEST STAM PVE BUILD EVER” posts.

OneWingedAnge7

I see it all the time in random dungeon queues.
Comes from players telling more inexperienced players what is best to use, without telling them how to use it.
Also see Olorime, the amount of times I see this proc on an altar, at the healers feet. Opposed to on the dd's that need it.
It is what it is though lol. Tis just a game afterall

Succuby

"I can not do 200 k DPS on healer without pressing buttons" = This game need to change - topic again ?

You have 100+ other sets, you can use it or ask to add new.
What is the point to always cry about changing good thingth already work ?

Do not like - do not use or ask for new.

Why already existing part of the game must change every time ?

May be you will not like that knife is cutting and you can not use it as spoon to it soap. Take a spoon than ! Why knifes need to be changed ? May be spoon is better naming for a knife ?

Peoples already refarm vMA and do 200+ trys, now you get it on 20 runs garantee ?

What a disrespect to players !

I have better idea !

Lets mobs and evil cultist becomes "good", and not hit you, but give you flowers and money.

Will not it make game better ?

(It will not, but i think there will be people who will be happy)