The Shift to Casual and Chapter Releases

Stamicka

Over time I have noticed a gradual shift in the player base as well as the creative direction of the game. There is no doubt that the game is getting more and more casual. We see it in almost every corner of the game. Content continues to get easier with DPS increases, balance changes attempt to close the skill gap, and the majority of content released requires very little combat. All that said, I see nothing wrong with a casual game. Creating a virtual environment where friends can chat and unwind is great and I think ESO has excelled at this. However, what if your idea of fun is competition and challenge? If this is the case, then this game isn’t so great.

I fully understand that many people want to relax and escape from their busy lives. Some people find this escape through questing, farming, fishing, exploring, or many of the other casual activities this game has to offer. There is nothing wrong with this and I think that ZOS has done an amazing job at creating this casual experience.

However, what if these casual activities become the only thing that ESO has to offer? Unfortunately, each year we approach this point. In creating this new casual experience, ZOS has ostracized non-casuals. I think there exists a balance where the game can appeal to both casuals and non-casuals. In fact, we’ve seen it in previous years. The majority of the updates released are: new zones, new houses, quests, and dungeons. The newest chapters have added: Scrying, Companions, and A Card Game. While I’m sure some people have loved these additions, none of it appeals to the non-casual players. To be clear, the addition of these new systems is perfectly fine, my problem is that the chapters don't contain much for the non-casual audience.

Let's take a look at in my opinion, one of the best years/ chapters ESO has ever had: 2017

In 2017 we got:
Player Housing
Battlegrounds
2 New Zones
New Class
2 New Trials
2 New Dungeons

I think that 2017 was a perfect blend of releases that appealed to both casual and non-casual audiences. The casual audience got: Housing, new quests, and new zones to explore. The non-casual audience got: BGs, 2 very challenging trials, and I think that the new class appealed to both groups. I was perfectly happy spending $40 on the Morrowind chapter because ZOS still had players like me in mind. Comparing 2017 to 2021 is a night and day difference. Personally, I was reluctant to spend $40 on the newest chapter (I only did so to access the new trial). Companions have no use to me, and I don't enjoy exploring or questing in new zones. Essentially I paid $40 for a trial.

Next, let's talk about Dungeon DLC's. Dungeons are pretty poor DLC's for both groups of players. whether you are a casual or a non casual, dungeons have very little replay value. Higher end players will typically finish the HMs on the release date and other groups will soon follow. On top of this, the rewards for completing the difficult achievements in these dungeons has gotten more and more lackluster. Since dungeons are not scored, the only reason to go back in will be for fun (which has its limits) and for grinding gear (often more efficiently done on normal). On the other hand for casual players, the quest and the scenery really only needs to be experienced once. DLC dungeons are also often avoided in random dungeon queues. These types of DLC releases need to happen much less frequently, or they need to be accompanied by something with replay value.

I consider myself a non-casual. I love ESO's combat system, I love competing with others, and I once loved PvP. After getting into combat intensive content; questing, housing, and exploring overland content just became too slow and boring for me. I suspect that this is the case for other players. Despite new content and a massive game, I find myself in a paradox where there is nothing for me to do. Admittedly, outside of trials, dungeons, and PvP, I have barely scratched all that this game has to offer (it's just too slow paced). While challenging and combat focused content don't have to be the core focus of the game, please keep players like me in mind as you continue to release new content.

phaneub17_ESO

There's only so much you can do with a horizontal progression system, its going to plateau and when it does you have limits on how to compensate the lack of a power growth. We could have seasons where we go up to to X limit for 6 months then everything resets back down at the end, but that favors the hardcore players. We could switch to a vertical progression system, but that means older content continuously gets weaker with new content being the primary focus.

DagenHawk

Shift to casual?

.....you are kidding right?

Stamicka

DagenHawk wrote: »

Shift to casual?

.....you are kidding right?

No? Why?

Stamicka

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

There's only so much you can do with a horizontal progression system, its going to plateau and when it does you have limits on how to compensate the lack of a power growth. We could have seasons where we go up to to X limit for 6 months then everything resets back down at the end, but that favors the hardcore players. We could switch to a vertical progression system, but that means older content continuously gets weaker with new content being the primary focus.

I'm not so sure that the progression system is the problem. My main concern is that each year, we get new systems that only appeal to a very casual crowd. This will be the 3rd year in a row. It started with Scrying, then it was Companions, now it will be a Card Game. These new systems could coincide with the release of something new for non-casual players. New BG maps, a new Alliance Ranking or reward system, an Imperial City revamp, anything to keep the PvP or competitive PVE scene fresh.

Sylvermynx

Perhaps @Stamicka you should read the overland content thread?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590162/overland-content-feedback-thread#latest

katanagirl1

It seems to me that both extremes are getting what they want.

The push to make solo arenas more like vet level are catering to elite players and making it more difficult for average players like me to finish normal content.

The vet dlc dungeons have so many mechanics now that I only try to run them on normal since I have to queue up in the group finder to do them.

Mandragora

Stamicka wrote: »

Over time I have noticed a gradual shift in the player base as well as the creative direction of the game. There is no doubt that the game is getting more and more casual. We see it in almost every corner of the game. Content continues to get easier with DPS increases, balance changes attempt to close the skill gap, and the majority of content released requires very little combat. All that said, I see nothing wrong with a casual game. Creating a virtual environment where friends can chat and unwind is great and I think ESO has excelled at this. However, what if your idea of fun is competition and challenge? If this is the case, then this game isn’t so great.

I fully understand that many people want to relax and escape from their busy lives. Some people find this escape through questing, farming, fishing, exploring, or many of the other casual activities this game has to offer. There is nothing wrong with this and I think that ZOS has done an amazing job at creating this casual experience.

However, what if these casual activities become the only thing that ESO has to offer? Unfortunately, each year we approach this point. In creating this new casual experience, ZOS has ostracized non-casuals. I think there exists a balance where the game can appeal to both casuals and non-casuals. In fact, we’ve seen it in previous years. The majority of the updates released are: new zones, new houses, quests, and dungeons. The newest chapters have added: Scrying, Companions, and A Card Game. While I’m sure some people have loved these additions, none of it appeals to the non-casual players. To be clear, the addition of these new systems is perfectly fine, my problem is that the chapters don't contain much for the non-casual audience.

Let's take a look at in my opinion, one of the best years/ chapters ESO has ever had: 2017

In 2017 we got:
Player Housing
Battlegrounds
2 New Zones
New Class
2 New Trials
2 New Dungeons

I think that 2017 was a perfect blend of releases that appealed to both casual and non-casual audiences. The casual audience got: Housing, new quests, and new zones to explore. The non-casual audience got: BGs, 2 very challenging trials, and I think that the new class appealed to both groups. I was perfectly happy spending $40 on the Morrowind chapter because ZOS still had players like me in mind. Comparing 2017 to 2021 is a night and day difference. Personally, I was reluctant to spend $40 on the newest chapter (I only did so to access the new trial). Companions have no use to me, and I don't enjoy exploring or questing in new zones. Essentially I paid $40 for a trial.

Next, let's talk about Dungeon DLC's. Dungeons are pretty poor DLC's for both groups of players. whether you are a casual or a non casual, dungeons have very little replay value. Higher end players will typically finish the HMs on the release date and other groups will soon follow. On top of this, the rewards for completing the difficult achievements in these dungeons has gotten more and more lackluster. Since dungeons are not scored, the only reason to go back in will be for fun (which has its limits) and for grinding gear (often more efficiently done on normal). On the other hand for casual players, the quest and the scenery really only needs to be experienced once. DLC dungeons are also often avoided in random dungeon queues. These types of DLC releases need to happen much less frequently, or they need to be accompanied by something with replay value.

I consider myself a non-casual. I love ESO's combat system, I love competing with others, and I once loved PvP. After getting into combat intensive content; questing, housing, and exploring overland content just became too slow and boring for me. I suspect that this is the case for other players. Despite new content and a massive game, I find myself in a paradox where there is nothing for me to do. Admittedly, outside of trials, dungeons, and PvP, I have barely scratched all that this game has to offer (it's just too slow paced). While challenging and combat focused content don't have to be the core focus of the game, please keep players like me in mind as you continue to release new content.

And 0 of playable guilds/factions in 2017 . The painful fact, that it was "return to Morrowind" with no factions for vampires, house Hlaalu, military house of Redoran or Morag Tong, with their lore explanation that it didn't exist, still for some reason Fighters and Mages guilds does have presence in Vivec.
Dungeons are great, but without something new like weapons or skills it is getting old aswell. And it is good for groups who know each other, but even guilds don't work well for them - there is "dps waving" requirement or players don't have the same pledges and experience with pubs is very painful both normal and veteran it is like 50/50 and you can meet very ugly people there. But alteast you can earn equipment there.

So I agree ESO is about combat dungeons, and casual story questing - I'm not sure what are you complaining here about - it is there even with the new chapter. And I doubt they can add more - even now th e 2DLCs are at the cost of any other progression system DLC.
But even those casual overland and cities are a bit bland without factions. They could add the variability of different play styles of factions/guilds, but they always take the worst example of totally nonimmersive grind from other MMOs and they say they don't want it - it is sad, because for me it is the main flaw of ESO.
I know there is a bit - like not very poplular psyjic guild. And Antiquarian with funny characters, but it is too little with no real background. So I would like to have more and less grindy.
There has to be progression in MMOs, if you remove the good fun progression, they will turn to crap.

endgamesmug

Overland is pretty boring to me except for maybe harrowstorms, ive paid little attention to any story content anywhere for a long time. I usually grind the new area as fast as possible to get the dye or whatever and get into the dungeons. I enjoy normal/vet dlc non hm, but not the least bit interested in the time consumation aspect of vet arenas and the formidable level of vet trials. Casual is fine to me i guess but im in the middle demographic as far as i can tell, so i guess im currently doing what i qualify for.

Stamicka

endgamesmug wrote: »

Overland is pretty boring to me except for maybe harrowstorms, ive paid little attention to any story content anywhere for a long time. I usually grind the new area as fast as possible to get the dye or whatever and get into the dungeons. I enjoy normal/vet dlc non hm, but not the least bit interested in the time consumation aspect of vet arenas and the formidable level of vet trials. Casual is fine to me i guess but im in the middle demographic as far as i can tell, so i guess im currently doing what i qualify for.

Honestly, even enjoying the combat and engaging with the combat system falls under the non casual crowd to me. I know many people who play this game and they don’t even like to see other players, they don’t like to kill enemies, and they spend most of their time on housing and questing. This is fine of course, but as time goes on this group gets way more content than other groups get. I think it needs addressing.

Araneae6537

Stamicka wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

There's only so much you can do with a horizontal progression system, its going to plateau and when it does you have limits on how to compensate the lack of a power growth. We could have seasons where we go up to to X limit for 6 months then everything resets back down at the end, but that favors the hardcore players. We could switch to a vertical progression system, but that means older content continuously gets weaker with new content being the primary focus.

I'm not so sure that the progression system is the problem. My main concern is that each year, we get new systems that only appeal to a very casual crowd. This will be the 3rd year in a row. It started with Scrying, then it was Companions, now it will be a Card Game. These new systems could coincide with the release of something new for non-casual players. New BG maps, a new Alliance Ranking or reward system, an Imperial City revamp, anything to keep the PvP or competitive PVE scene fresh.

I agree. Ongoing vertical progression discourages me from continuing with a game. What is BiS can change with updates and that’s fine as it doesn’t make existing builds bad or unusable even in more difficult content.

For me I am not at that point yet as I yet have more to learn and achieve in various roles in PvE and PvP but I see your point about more of the added content being casual now. I do hope we see revamping of PvP next year with new modes, rewards and improved performance.

colossalvoids

Well that's a game direction we can't do anything about. They're thinking that 2 dungeon dlc and a trial is enough, so we're getting only those guaranteed with a small chance of solo arena and/or something for everyone - like class, skill line etc. Their thought pattern won't change until "casual crowd" got bored themselves and would also be in favour of something less cosmetic but more substantial.

Also jumping on dungeon DLC's isn't much helping "end game" or vet players either, I personally like those the most nowadays with lackluster chapters and shallow questing we're getting, that's probably the only place where narrative actually meets gameplay instead of being just a campfire story for one.

SammyKhajit

@Mandragora you pinpointed on the lack of factions since 2017. ESO seems to cater for PVEs but they can’t seem to do the extra work of giving more PVE content.

Antiquities is a grind. Yes, some useful gears but still grind and subject to be nerfed. Companion system so far is a grind and without further thoughts to deepening the story lines of the existing characters.

ZOS really needs to think about where this game is heading.

jerek95

Now, here's the big question - has ESO released as a casual game or not?
Craglorn was added later.
Trials were added later.
Challenging dungeons (DLC ones) were added later. The difference in dungeons is so huge that I can solo most non-DLC vet dungs that allow soloing but often die to mobs in DLC vet ones.

Is housing casual? Dunno, the sole cost of furnishing, houses, recipes is so big that most casual players won't be able to buy them or probably won't have time to farm them. You know what they say - the true endgame in ESO is housing...
and crafting - all those years we saw more and more motifs added to the game, where if you do overland and dailies you might get one or two. The rest you probably need to buy. That's also a huge gold sink and casuals don't hoard 10kk gold.

Were dragons casual? Are world bosses in DLC zones casual?

Those are all things that are both casual and hardcore, depending on how you approach them. Outside of trials and Craglorn - most casual players can try to do this content but without hardcore group they will probably not succeed. On the other side - hardcores don't need help to do group content, if the game allows it to be done without group.

You've said that Battlegrouds were not casual. Why? To me it's one of the most casual experiances you can get - quick match, auto group, just running and killing players and not long time investment. Is Fortnite casual game? Is CoD casual game? Every single game or game mode that puts you in specific situation with tools to kill other players in a closed environment, without any consequence for the rest of the game - it's casual. It can be played in hardcore way (trying to achieve meta) but at it's core - it's casual.


Now, big question for you - what would you consider "hardcore" addition to the game system? Let me guess - PvP server, where everyone can kill you in overland?

Hurbster

I'm sure ZoS had high hopes for Craglorn, but wasn't it a failure, population-wise? As a result I believe they converted Murkmire into a normal adventure zone?

I still consider it a huge waste of potential, with cities that are well known in lore such as Elinhir just sitting there being wasted.

Could be wrong about those of course.

Seraphayel

Hurbster wrote: »

I'm sure ZoS had high hopes for Craglorn, but wasn't it a failure, population-wise? As a result I believe they converted Murkmire into a normal adventure zone?

I still consider it a huge waste of potential, with cities that are well known in lore such as Elinhir just sitting there being wasted.

Could be wrong about those of course.

Craglorn was a failure because the entire game back then was a failure. Craglorn itself was epic, but it was a group zone which was… problematic. I still think it’s one of the best zones they ever brought into the game.

ESO began to shine when the console version and One Tamriel got released in 2015 (?), the PC version of the game fell pretty flat. After the model change the game was reinvigorated and got better and better. Right until Elsweyr. After Elsweyr, the just stopped to create something interesting new and just relied on the same old boring tropes and themes. That’s the point where the game was incredibly casualized and gameplay became stagnant.

DagenHawk wrote: »

Shift to casual?

.....you are kidding right?

This game is 99% casual and 1% veteran. Besides the very few arenas and trials this game (in PvE) is appeasing to just one type of player and it’s the casual.

rauyran

Seraphayel wrote: »

This game is 99% casual and 1% veteran. Besides the very few arenas and trials this game (in PvE) is appeasing to just one type of player and it’s the casual.

If casual means everything except PvP and trial/arena scoreboards then 99% of the player base are casual and almost certainly more than 99% of the income is from casual.

If you run a game company and you want to invest $500k this year, would you spend it on the 1% or the 99%?

Seraphayel

rauyran wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This game is 99% casual and 1% veteran. Besides the very few arenas and trials this game (in PvE) is appeasing to just one type of player and it’s the casual.

If casual means everything except PvP and trial/arena scoreboards then 99% of the player base are casual and almost certainly more than 99% of the income is from casual.

If you run a game company and you want to invest $500k this year, would you spend it on the 1% or the 99%?

I never said they should stop catering to casual, they should. But they very often forget their other players, especially the non-casual and PvP crowd.

Larcomar

Prety much this _^ Zos is a commercial company, they're going to know a lot about their player base and if they're choosing to release this sort of content, it's going to be because that's what their data tells them the player base want. More generally, while people - or the people who *post* about video games - are always asking for tougher gameplay, the history of video games and MMOs in particular suggests the majority of people don't actually want that in practice. Games that try full on pvp, super tough difficulty, realistic world travel etc tend to fail or very rapidly water themselves down.

Personally I wish there were more challenging content. And regularly wish they'd put a vet overland in. I spend most of my time in stuff like Craglorn and Cyro but the former's just oen zone and the latters dead during the day. That said, running around levelling up a new templar over the weekend, I was cursing the mobs that snared me, stunned me and took more than 2 loads of jabs to die. Because, yeah, I just wanted to grab the skyshard, the book and find that damn rift and didn't really want to bother with, you know, mobs....

tonyblack

Yes, the game definitely moving in one-sided direction focusing solely on attracting new players while ignoring veteran players. New zones, antiquities, companions, card game, none of it has any appeal to endgame community. At least for pve we have 4 dungeons and 1 trial per year, pvp on their other hand was ignored for years and solo activities are all but focused on casual experience. For that reason my excitement for anything new kind of faded.

Arunei

I think a point people are overlooking is that the game was never meant to be marketed to either casual or hardcore players. It was marketed as an Elder Scrolls game, and targeted at fans of the Elder Scrolls franchise. That group includes casual and hardcore players alike, whether they're vets of MMOs or not. And don't forget it's been said that they don't see or try to market ESO as.a traditional MMO either.

So they aren't trying to cater to either casuals or hardcore players. They're catering to the ES fans.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

Because there is a thread already open on this topic, we're going to close this one down so that all feedback can be consolidated in one place. You may continue the discussion here.

Thank you for your understanding.