Random BG Made a Team of 4 DKs; We Got Problems

Eormenric

Of any 4 of one class for matchmaking to build, it went with Dragonknight, the most default tanky class we have to choose from and therefore the most overpowered in the current state of pvp. Here's the problems that really get highlighted when you got 4 of these things as opponents:

1) 4 leaps to deal with. Unless you're a freshly shielded, 100% hp bruiser or tank yourself, these homing missiles will knock you up (multiple times in fact) and altogether will guarantee your death--and your nearby teammates. There's no counter to this like if it were 4 Nightblades trying to Incap/SH you or 4 Templar whirling their spears around or 4 Necromancers dropping Colossi. No other single ultimate can make you feel so powerful even if you have zero additional offensive stats.

2) Petrify. If 4 DKs all press their favorite Petrify button on you at the same time (which they will) you are gone. Confusingly, DKs get all the skills that cannot be dodged, blocked, or reflected. Why? Who thought it was good to focus all of these skills onto one class? And why does Petrify do so much hard CC in addition to damage? Nothing compares to the strength of this skill.

3) Breath. Breath. Breath. The only other comparable skill to an AoE Major Breach is Warden's Deep Fissue, which again, does not compare. Deep Fissure needs to be aimed from its thin line 3 seconds after you press the button. Noxious Breath is a conal instant cast with a DoT and resource regen... Um, what? Not like Caltrops or Unnerving Boneyard are good substitutes either because you can just dodge roll out and you're back to full armor. And don't even get me started on how just 1 Engulfing Flames morph adds 40% additional damage to you in this scenario.

4) Lava Whip--a guaranteed buff. You'll rarely see a DK not proc the buffed version of either morph, but you especially won't when there's 4 of these things spamming Petrify on you. Why is there even a buffed version if that's all that a DK will ever utilize because of the ease of accessing it? And now to critique the morphs: Molten Whip, a mini Frenzied Momentum for free. Flame Lash, a giant heal x3 before you manage to break free (with server lag of course) and get out of the immobilized state. Wonderful.

5) Dragon Blood. It doesn't matter which morph is chosen; the fact that this skill heals a flat percentage of missing health is preposterous. Just as you think you're bringing down this over-compensated class to low health, they press 1 button and your hard work is undone. And they'll be waiting to use it again because of course they have plenty of resources leftover from all the poisons and flames they've spit on you.


The DKs that I always see 1vEveryone use each of these skills, seemingly with any armor (I'm not complaining about Plaguebreak--the class itself is the problem), always with dual wields using Whirling Blade, an AoE execute that you'd be foolish to think DK is bereft of (and this execute hits through dodge roll--great, another undodgeable addition). Occasionally you'll see one rocking a morph of Ash Cloud with it's oh so cute SEVENTY percentage snare (highest in the game, right?). And if you think, "Well, at least they don't have travel abilities". I give you Fiery Grip (and it's morphs) or the commonly seen Undo from Psijic.

Dragonknights have been built with no regard in mind for their utility and strength. I cannot find a weakness in their setup besides purely overwhelming them. I do think cost-increase poisons would help deter them, but no 1v1 build is going to rock that--only a support might. Sure would be great to have that be accessible on ANYTHING ELSE. And I think the best counter is break free armor sets like Unchained Aggressor, Zoal, and Indomitable Fury, but it's still not going to be a hard counter; that's just reactionary to what you can expect to be pummeled with.

I do believe any class can warrant a "DIS OP DAWG" thread. However, it appears the skill curve to achieve greatness with a DK is simply the same wombo combo of petrify>breath>whip>leap--which is easily and often done with no drawbacks.

Larcomar

Try a templar

Sneakers

You just wait until next patch

DKs will have access to one more powerful HoT through resto staff / vigor and will be even tankier. I think next patch will be all DK and DK bombing with plague + vd. Imagine 4 DKs on discord who alternate VD + plague in a group cross healing eachother with resto staff and vigor + coag using corrosive when going offensive.

Pure lol.

Eormenric

Sneakers wrote: »

You just wait until next patch

DKs will have access to one more powerful HoT through resto staff / vigor and will be even tankier. I think next patch will be all DK and DK bombing with plague + vd. Imagine 4 DKs on discord who alternate VD + plague in a group cross healing eachother with resto staff and vigor + coag using corrosive when going offensive.

Pure lol.

Yeah, the way DK is looking, I'm thinking of quitting PvP for awhile. It's just not fun when more and more people are picking the over-tuned class because they want to win and there's little we can do to stop them except hope their teammates are way worse than they are.

Everything in the DKs arsenal needs to be toned down 10-20%. Then they might be balanced in respect to other class performance and capability.

Kwoung

Eormenric wrote: »

I do believe any class can warrant a "DIS OP DAWG" thread. However, it appears the skill curve to achieve greatness with a DK is simply the same wombo combo of petrify>breath>whip>leap--which is easily and often done with no drawbacks.

Sorry, but I don't get this, are you saying it is okay if some class/build is overpowered, as long as it takes some amount of skill to play that build, but if you find playing that build to be easy it is not ok? Have you considered that there are players out there to whom this "wombo combo" build might be challenging to play for some reason... and it is all they are capable of?

Urzigurumash

Interesting. Here are the years DK was widely regarded as among the worst classes in High MMR BGs: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020.

Having played StamDK through thousands of BGs over the years, I wonder - what class(es) do you play in BGs?

divnyi

@Urzigurumash StamDK was considered the worst. MagDK was good in duels but worse in bigger fights.

I don't see anyone complaining about StamDK, it's MagDK that is an issue.

Urzigurumash

divnyi wrote: »

@Urzigurumash StamDK was considered the worst. MagDK was good in duels but worse in bigger fights.

I don't see anyone complaining about StamDK, it's MagDK that is an issue.

True, OP mentioned Whirling Blades + Noxious, but my main point is really - is it Active Skills which have received no adjustment in a long time which should draw our attention, or more recently arisen global imbalances from which a particular class may inequitably benefit? In the absence of these global imbalances - do the adjustments to DK passives help equalize its power with other classes, where they were putatively deficient over the years?

Vevvev

Urzigurumash wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash StamDK was considered the worst. MagDK was good in duels but worse in bigger fights.

I don't see anyone complaining about StamDK, it's MagDK that is an issue.

True, OP mentioned Whirling Blades + Noxious, but my main point is really - is it Active Skills which have received no adjustment in a long time which should draw our attention, or more recently arisen global imbalances from which a particular class may inequitably benefit? In the absence of these global imbalances - do the adjustments to DK passives help equalize its power with other classes, where they were putatively deficient over the years?

You make a good point though about the changes. There hasn't been any real drastic changes to DK's abilities or even fighting style as most of it was passive adjustments, increased duration of certain effects, or side grade workarounds. DK always was pretty solid in a 1v1 engagement, but the hybridization of DK's kit, the changes to HP recovery, changes to the charged trait, and other factors mostly outside of the DK kit led to it becoming what it is now. Devs even foresaw the change to charged being a super serious issue and added that cooldown on Combustion to compensate for instance.

Raeyleigh

Its just how the balance winds blow atm.

Back in One Tamriel time magsorcs and stamnbs were super op and everyone played one.
Back in greymoor stamwardens and stamnecros were super op and everyone played one.
Currently magdk and magplar are super op and everyone plays one.
And those are just some examples.

The devs always take ages, usually atleast half a year, to rebalance the meta, and they tend to always either overbuff or overnerf when they finally get around to it.
Magdk waited no less than 6 years (!) to get the spot in the sun back again.

Tbh i hope they still adress undeath passive, plaguebreak and caluurion in this pts cycle and then just watch how the coming hybrid meta settles before they do significant changes.

Amottica

With a random group of players that queued solo any possibility of grouping can happen. In a different game, I have seen four DDs grouped against four healers in a deathmatch.

Rhaegar75

Random BG…4 magsorc bouncing around stunning people and a hailstorm of frags

Random BG…4 unkillable necros tanking the map to death

Seriously, can we stop with the nerf magdk threads? Or at least please consider that magDK are just on pair with other classes rather than being left at the bottom of the pile

Larcomar

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Random BG…4 magsorc bouncing around stunning people and a hailstorm of frags

Random BG…4 unkillable necros tanking the map to death

Seriously, can we stop with the nerf magdk threads? Or at least please consider that magDK are just on pair with other classes rather than being left at the bottom of the pile

+1 These forums have just degenerated into people who play a particular class - and I'm going to say it, usually nightblade - calling for other classes nerfed. Magdks finally got a bit of a buff - to their sustain of all things - so I guess it's their turn. But then ofc if one class gets buffed, I guess that means everyone else got less good so they're going to howl....

SkaraMinoc

DK was a joke in BGs for years. Now they are finally viable and everyone complains.

Irfind

Hm maybe Zos should adjust the groupfinder(solo queue only) with classes in mind ? No more full 4 necro, mage or whatever in 1 team ?

Ok one can dream ...

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Magplars are the true op class. Such a carry class as well. Imagine if Blizzard let retribution paladins spam lay on hands every 1 second, that is magplar. Obviously they are both beyond broken, but at least magdk has to work for it. I hear the argument that templar should be good because it is the noob class, but I disagree. Class with the highest skill requirement should be the best, not the two button class.

Thraben

The usual 3 Wardens + 1 Necro/DK team ist still more dangerous, and so is a 4 PetSorc group. Still, no one cries for PetSorc nerfs.

L_Nici

@Thraben 4 Petsorcs isn't dangerous, its just easy win because they have 4x guaranteed last hit.

Hotdog_23

L_Nici wrote: »

@Thraben 4 Petsorcs isn't dangerous, its just easy win because they have 4x guaranteed last hit.

Isn't winning the point?

divnyi

Thraben wrote: »

Still, no one cries for PetSorc nerfs.

Because there is nothing no nerf. Only viable pet is healing pet, and that's basically great heal that takes 2 slots and can be disrupted by killing pet. Damage-wise you are better up sloting inner light / bound armor and something useful at backbar.

Kaysha

In Cyrodiil I only see Templars right now. Spamming nothing but jabs after charge+ult. Let DKs have their fun. At least they have to press more than one button!

Vevvev

Thraben wrote: »

The usual 3 Wardens + 1 Necro/DK team ist still more dangerous, and so is a 4 PetSorc group. Still, no one cries for PetSorc nerfs.

What'd they nerf? The ability to hide behind the pets? Just look at them and hit the cycle primary target button and now it'll target them over the pets as long as your reticle is on top of them.

katorga

divnyi wrote: »

@Urzigurumash StamDK was considered the worst. MagDK was good in duels but worse in bigger fights.

I don't see anyone complaining about StamDK, it's MagDK that is an issue.

4 pet sorcs....that is a lot of matriarch heals, which ignore LOS or height, and just the sheer visual clutter in BGs is disorienting from 8 pets, 4 engine guardians or Maws, and some number of Atros. That clutter goes both ways, I dislike playing it. I dislike playing against it, regardless of if it is powerful or not.

The power to confuse is underrated.

I think stamDK is the best stamina class right now. Next patch hybrid DK will be top dog by a mile.

McTaterskins

Vevvev wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

The usual 3 Wardens + 1 Necro/DK team ist still more dangerous, and so is a 4 PetSorc group. Still, no one cries for PetSorc nerfs.

What'd they nerf? The ability to hide behind the pets? Just look at them and hit the cycle primary target button and now it'll target them over the pets as long as your reticle is on top of them.

Pretty sure that's not a thing on console

Vevvev

McTaterskins wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

The usual 3 Wardens + 1 Necro/DK team ist still more dangerous, and so is a 4 PetSorc group. Still, no one cries for PetSorc nerfs.

What'd they nerf? The ability to hide behind the pets? Just look at them and hit the cycle primary target button and now it'll target them over the pets as long as your reticle is on top of them.

Pretty sure that's not a thing on console

That's been a thing on consoles for a very long time. By default you hold the right joystick while looking at something. That's the default binding for it.

Eormenric

Irfind wrote: »

Hm maybe Zos should adjust the groupfinder(solo queue only) with classes in mind ? No more full 4 necro, mage or whatever in 1 team ?

Ok one can dream ...

I originally thought they did just that alongside what role someone queued as. If it's possible to select a role before queuing for BGs, but that role choice means nothing, then we get the kinds of teams that people have been sharing in this thread--4 glass cannons versus 4 healers. Sure, someone can lie just like in random dungeons, but it'd only be to their detriment.

I've recently been in a match with 12 bruisers. It took forever to kill someone! And whom ever died was simply up to the whim of all of us deciding to attack the same person. Time ran out and the highest score was ~200/500. That doesn't seem right. Stalemates should happen because of teamwork and skill, not nigh-unkillable groups of the exact same make-up.

I think the main issue with a team all of the same build/class is that their weakness might not be met by the opposing team. Instead of varied teams versus varied teams, we clearly see a singular strength winning out due to sufficient lack of counter. And that's a big point of this thread. Put 4 of the same thing in a team and what weaknesses exist? If there is no weakness that every player can feasibly have access to, that presents an imbalance. If it boils down to, "Yeah, 4 of any class is going to seem overpowered" then make it impossible for that to occur in matchmaking--at least in random.

Irfind

Nope i go only random and see 4 same class or 3/1 often. I endet up in 4 NB team ... against 3 necro 1 dk ...

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Zos should create a "tank buster" role. Remember when bombers didn't exist and then proximity detonation and vd got added? It created a new pvp role that was needed. The tank buster role would be designed to deal with both tanks AND bruiser builds. Not sure how it can be done without the tank buster role being too strong against non bruisers, but surely its possible.

In overwatch(the fps) at least back when I played Reaper was an amazing example of a tank buster. His shotguns were strong against anyone, but they were much easier to land on the huge hitboxes of the tanks. Smaller characters he struggled against because it was hard to land a full shot on a smol character like tracer. Oblivion damage modified to scale off of the Heals per second on the target, Damage resist(not armor), and Hp could work. Bruisers and tanks usually have all three in massive amounts.

Knight slayer 5pc could look something like this: Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 12% of an enemy's Maximum Health and 75% of their heals per second as Oblivion Damage. The damage is further boosted by the % damage resistance of your target. Maximum damage of 8000 in pve content, no maximum in pvp. Only can be procced ONCE from lightning staff and resto staff. Set will not proc if your maximum health is over 25000 or total damage resistance is over 30%(to prevent tanks or bruisers from using it themselves).

100k hp enemy who has a total of 50% damage resistance and 5000 heals per second.

12k damage from the health scaling
3750 damage from his heals per second
15750 damage that is then boosted by 50% from his damage resistance for a total of 23625 damage every fully charged heavy attack.

Keep in mind our target had 100k hp and that is still only around 25% of his maximum hp. He could tank a few, but eventually he would be busted. Also numbers are just a thought and not the end product. The role is not meant to be fair for tanks and bruisers, its meant to directly counter them. Similar to how unfair it is to get your stacked group blown up by a bomber. Or how unfair it is for a cloak blade to get his defense disabled for 10 seconds by a detect pot. Counters have to be STRONG in order to work. This is going to be an even more valuable role for the game to have after everyone switches to a shield slam bash build with 50k hp.

Another idea is a new set that applies a heal stealing effect to your target for X seconds.

5pc: applying a minor or major debuff to a target causes you to steal 60% of any healing received by the target for 5 seconds. Healing received from any other source is reduced by 60%. This effect can only be applied every 10 seconds.

Both of these sets combined would create a very strong tank buster role.

DUTCH_REAPER

This right here. This is why this game rubber bands with classes that are good to go and very poor. [snip] Dks are by no means indestructible. Stop trying to nerf classes. I mean for crying out loud it’s NO CP in battlegrounds.

[Edited for Baiting]

birdik

every second my game