Am I alone in thinking magblades are getting ignored?

OWLTHEMAD

I came back a couple months ago after a nearly 2 year hiatus. Dropped the game on greymoore.

A lot has changed but one thing that seems to remain the same is that magblade generally gets ignored when it is in desperate need of utility and tweaking while everyone else, stam specs especially get buffed to high heaven.

We have an ult that is completely useless compared to its counterparts, several skill that have fallen into obsolescence, redundant group utility that nobody wants needs, or can't find in more efficient forms elsewhere

And just about zero unique features that we bring to a group comp. We're even pretty low on dps rankings.

The new burst heal is nice I suppose. But it seems to me cp balance changes have nerfed swallow souls heal meaning that whether we utilize the burst heal or swallow soul we have to give up damage one way or another. Something we're already struggling with in endgame.

I'm not saying buff the class. But it definitely could use some tweaks.

Sluggy

To be a bit terse - yeah you probably are alone.

In live right now magblades are in a pretty decent spot. However, if you take a quick look at the patch notes from U33 you'll see that the term "magblade" is completely obsolete.

colossalvoids

At this point I'm even happy they aren't targeting it, could've been worse lol.

OWLTHEMAD

But they're not in a good spot. At least not from what I see. They lag behind every other mag spec in pretty much everyway

Maybe it's a case of grass is greener but . . .but I'm just not seeing it.

And I'm not switching my Breton magblade to stam because of another overwhelming and overwhelmingly arbitrary balance change.

Your hitting the nail on the head.

When new patches hit there won't be magblades anymore. Just stubborn hold outs like me.

But that kind of proves my point.


Not being facetious here but can you define good spot?
I'm still catching up with a lot of things so maybe I've missed something but right now it just feels like a discount Templar with a harder rotation and lower damage potential

And in pvp, my experience so far, I'll be the first to admit I haven't done too much since coming back, seems to be that we are somewhat reliant on proc sets like calurion though beyond that I can't whine too much on pvp performance as that's nothing new.

OWLTHEMAD

colossalvoids wrote: »

At this point I'm even happy they aren't targeting it, could've been worse lol.

True enough. Magblades getting repeatedly nerfed into ground was why I left to begin with.

Since I've started I've repeatedly seen them nerf hammer the class under the pretense that certain abilities were just too powerful while simultaneously giving the same functionality or buffed versions of that functionality, to literally everyone else.

The identity is kind of gone and aside from cloak I kind of think the whole class just needs an overhaul. What shape that will take I couldn't even imagine.

Tannus15

in PvE land i'm seeing good results from magblades still.
they have pretty much been in a good place since the buff to twisting path.

OWLTHEMAD

Tannus15 wrote: »

in PvE land i'm seeing good results from magblades still.
they have pretty much been in a good place since the buff to twisting path.

I remember when they did that. It certainly helped. Gotta say I'm a fan of the merciless change in regards to spell damage

Still though. I feel they are more than a little lacking in the utility department and self sustain compared to where they once were

And it bothers me that I can swap too a Templar with substandard gear and still hit very close to my magblade with honestly little effort

Maybe once I swap to Medusa I can have a cleaner rotation with a little less effort

Sluggy

In PvE they are still the goto DPS class. In PvP they are extremely strong in group play with their crit AoE damage (which is helped by the fact that many sets now crit again) and EXTREMELY powerful with their crit heals. In solo play they are practically untouchable and can walk around open battle fields with impunity, free to strike when and where they want. But this is all just on live now...

The important part of my post was in regards to U33. There is no such thing as magblade once this patch hits. There is also no such thing as a stamblade. Or a mag warden, or a stamwarden, so-on-so-forth for all of the classes. If you are thinking in terms of stam-spec vs mag-spec next patch you will be left in the dust.

Trixterion

Sluggy wrote: »

The important part of my post was in regards to U33. There is no such thing as magblade once this patch hits. There is also no such thing as a stamblade. Or a mag warden, or a stamwarden, so-on-so-forth for all of the classes. If you are thinking in terms of stam-spec vs mag-spec next patch you will be left in the dust.

But there still will be Frostden, Zen-DK and Catalyst-Necro

Sluggy

Trixterion wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

The important part of my post was in regards to U33. There is no such thing as magblade once this patch hits. There is also no such thing as a stamblade. Or a mag warden, or a stamwarden, so-on-so-forth for all of the classes. If you are thinking in terms of stam-spec vs mag-spec next patch you will be left in the dust.

But there still will be Frostden, Zen-DK and Catalyst-Necro

Fair enough.

Fennwitty

I'm not sure magblade is in a very good spot, but it could be worse.

This patch is buffing Strife a little bit at least. And previously the change to the heal, and dark path was boosted a little bit (though also boosted for stam).

Magicka Nightblades are more difficult than other mag classes though, in my opinion. Stuck mainly in melee, have to be very good at hitting Merciless Resolve procs and you're limited in Ultimate choice.

A good change I hope for with Nightblade generally is a guaranteed Major Brutality/Sorcery added to the class kit. The siphoning AOE skill requires a target be hit currently and it's pretty close range, making it unreliable at times.

React

I've got a lot of time on the class, and there are some QOL changes that would be pretty easy to make that could really bring magNB up in terms of (pvp) viability. None of these are massive buffs, but rather adjustments to the toolkit that modernize it to be more in line with the Power levels present in other classes toolkits.

1. Merciless Resolve - Currentley this heals you based on the damage done when it hits a target. Unfortunately merciless resolve is dodgeable and blockable, in addition to needing approximately 5 GCDs before being ready to use. Because of this, the heal portion of the skill is not consistent enough to rely on. Instead of healing you based on damage done to the target, it should heal for a fixed % of the tool tip each time you shoot it. Say 25-30% of the tooltip (for reference, on my clever alch/maiden/magma incarnate/markyn setup with master at arms and deadly aim, my TT is about 25k-27k. ALSO, FIRING THE BOW PROC SHOULD GRANT THE SPELL DAMAGE GIVEN BY HAVING 5 STACKS FOR ABOUT 3-5 SECONDS, AS A STANDALONE BUFF. This will allow it to affect the bow proc and give a very short window to stack your spell damage slightly higher.

2. Sap essence - should grant the major buffs without hitting a target. If I spend the magicka to cast an AOE that isnt even hitting someone, I should at least get the buff for it.

3. Mass Hysreria - Used to be one of the best hard CCs in the game, now it is one of the worst. They took the snare and maim off this skill which was fine, but now with the insane server/location desync, this skill misses more often than it lands. This isn't really a fault of the skill, but they really need to increase the range on it to make it useable. Currentley it is not worth a slot on your bar. Even just a 3 meter buff to the range would be a HUGE QOL improvement for this skill without changing its power level.

4. Concealed weapon/suprise attack stuns - I have a love/hate with these skills, as a primarily melee magblade player. For a while the concealed stun was great for catching people off guard, and it was built into the spammable which helped a lot with the bar space issues. The problem now though is again, location/server desync. The skill is supposed to stun when you're flanking the target, but half the time it will stun a target who is directly in front of you and facing you. This makes it difficult to use as a spammable, because it really messes up your stun timing when you're trying to apply pressure before going for the stun. Since the location desync isnt going anywhere, I think the best solution for this is to remove the stun from both morphs, but make them apply off balance on every cast (to targets that aren't off balance immune, of course). Off balance medium/heavy attacks are a far more reliable stun than the inconsistent "flanking" stun the ability currentley has.

5. General projectile travel time (swallow soul/debilitate/merciless) - swallow soul is the spammable of choice for ranged magicka nightblade players, but unfortunately it travels far too slowly to be able to pressure low health/dodging targets. If the travel time was increased by 33% this skill would be much more consistent. Also, on the PTS the base morph and the group healing morph got a 5% buff in damage - I am unsure why this was not also applied to swallow.

Debilitate is an extremely slow moving ranged dot that often misses, and should also either have its travel time increased or become instant - similar to entropy. One of the biggest issues with the class is that almost all of its damage is dodgeable and blockable, apart from sap and tether. Having an instant cast dot would be a huge QOL improvement.

Merciless resolve should have its minimum travel time removed - currently at point blank range when you fire a merciless, it will not land on the target for (200? 400?) Miliseconds. This results in targets being able to easily break free of a stun and dodge it every time, and visually often results in targets that haven't started a roll dodging it while standing up. The skill requires far too much preparation and setup to be punished by a travel delay like this. This was added back when you could CC a target with incap or fear and hit the bow every time, which for performance reasons is simply not the case anymore.

6. Major buff duration is tied to HEAVY ARMOR on the "burst damage/assassin" class. Instead of shadow barrier increasing the duration of ward/resolve based on your heavy armor pieces, it should increase it based on your medium & light armor pieces. This far better suits the archetype of the class, and just makes more sense in general. Every other class has a long duration fire and forget armor buff already, so allowing 5 medium or 5 light armor nightblades to have a 12-15 second buff would bring them more in line with other classes when using their intended armor weight.

Here is a link to a bit of my gameplay to vouch for my time on the class. All of these suggestions are coming from an unbiased perspective, as I have far more time on several other classes and am willing to play literally any class in the game.

https://youtu.be/608syMVsb8I

Mojmir

Cripple should cost less and drain magicka.

OWLTHEMAD

I dont necessarily agree or disagree, but i cant criticize any of your points.

Im a go ahead and hit some other skills though that imo REALLY need attention

1. Consuming darkness/bolstering darkness/ veil of blades

This "ultimate" skill is completely obsolete in todays game. Major protection is too weak and too readily available from more easily used sources to justify this skill

Two things can happen too bring it back to at least niche usefulness. First, the AOE needs to be increased. Too easily avoidable and too much work to draw add pulls into. Second, is they should really put major evasion up here. Whether as an alternative too protection Or in conjunction i cant say. But this ability is built for group utility and its current form has no value

2.Mark Target/ Piercing Mark/ Reapers Mark

First Reapers mark: im not sure what situation this skill is used in except maybe on a 1vx build but its entirely too niche. First change that needs too happen is that the benefit should go to whomever in your group makes the kill. This gives the ability legitimate group utility. The second is the duration of major berserk needs to be ten seconds. If i wanted to be really greedy id even say multi target but ill leave that alone. Nb healers and tanks dont bring anything too the table this is a prime candidate for changing that and it should be looked at

Second is peircing mark. Honesyly this one doesnt need much. Extend the duration on the stealth detection and you open up a lot of spy vs spy gameplay routes.

3. Path of darkness, twisting path, refreshing path.

[snip] devs? First off the major expedition on this skill is the WORST source of it in the game. This isnt group utility. You took it off cripple for this skill? No one uses it for that at all so why take damage from noobies on the base form?

I could see this as having decent utility if you gave it either major or minor evasion. This would also be more in line with a group of players "shrouded" in darkness having an easier time dodging but honestly this skill just needs to be completely reworked. Whether with a mind for pve or pvp.

Refreshing path also needs the larger aoe granted too twisting path

4 Crippling grasp.
The other morphs are good but they really need to put major expedition back on this skill and remove it from path.

This skill used to be a key nightblade skill and an amazing kite tool. Now its rarely used at all.

5 fear

Honestly i loved this skill when it worked but in my experience it simply doesnt anymore. You have to be right on top of your opponent and even then your lucky if it does.

Also with the advent of necros i no longer feel this skill keeps with nightblades new identity.

While nightblades definitely need a readily available stun i personally think that this ability needs to be completely reworked into a new skill.

Ideally with some tanking utility involved. Barring that though, as you said the could just increase the aoe on it.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Selot

Agree. Magblade does need some love.

ADarklore

Interestingly, in most Youtube vids regarding "best class of 2022"... Magblade is at or near the top in each one.

Master_Kas

Mojmir wrote: »

Cripple should cost less and drain magicka.

Or drain stam.

Ragnaroek93

Talking about PvP nb has the issue that it's a burst class while it's burst skills are telegraphed, delayed and easily avoidable and outside of that the class doesn't has a proper counter to block, dodge and healing.

PvP_Exploiter

Pretty sure the lead combat designer is NB main, maybe he can't play anything else so keeps buffing all other classes so they're easier to play for him.

That or because he's a known NB main, any buffs would seem bias, but means NB has been left to rot at the bottom of the pack.

merpins

The main spammable for magblade is currently... Elemental Weapon.
And it shouldn't be. It should be Swallow Soul. But Swallow Soul does less damage than Elemental Weapon, partly because Psijic Order skills cause extra damage every four casts. They nerfed Swallow Soul many times in the past, but that just made the skill kinda useless now.
Imo. Swallow Soul needs a buff to where it can be Magicka Nightblade's main spammable again. A cost reduction + damage increase could do it. They could also give it a .8 second cast time and increase the damage a lot, or make it a channel and do the same thing. Dunno, just food for thought. I used to main a magblade for the longest time. Now I haven't touched a Nightblade at all in 3 years at least, and other than the buff to path, it's only been nerfed more since then.

Runefang

ADarklore wrote: »

Interestingly, in most Youtube vids regarding "best class of 2022"... Magblade is at or near the top in each one.

YT is not a source of truth.

Everest_Lionheart

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

The main spammable for magblade is currently... Elemental Weapon.
And it shouldn't be. It should be Swallow Soul. But Swallow Soul does less damage than Elemental Weapon, partly because Psijic Order skills cause extra damage every four casts. They nerfed Swallow Soul many times in the past, but that just made the skill kinda useless now.
Imo. Swallow Soul needs a buff to where it can be Magicka Nightblade's main spammable again. A cost reduction + damage increase could do it. They could also give it a .8 second cast time and increase the damage a lot, or make it a channel and do the same thing. Dunno, just food for thought. I used to main a magblade for the longest time. Now I haven't touched a Nightblade at all in 3 years at least, and other than the buff to path, it's only been nerfed more since then.

Go ahead and make it a channel and buff the damage. I will have another class to wear deadly strike other than Magplar 🤣

Mayrael

ADarklore wrote: »

Interestingly, in most Youtube vids regarding "best class of 2022"... Magblade is at or near the top in each one.

Why? What have changed within NB toolset that he's moved from the bottom to top? Any reasons or just YT "stars" put classes in some random order? Go ahead and play some high MMR BGs on magblade and tell us how fun was to fight 4xDK or 4xTemplar teams.

merpins

Mayrael wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Interestingly, in most Youtube vids regarding "best class of 2022"... Magblade is at or near the top in each one.

Why? What have changed within NB toolset that he's moved from the bottom to top? Any reasons or just YT "stars" put classes in some random order? Go ahead and play some high MMR BGs on magblade and tell us how fun was to fight 4xDK or 4xTemplar teams.

It was probably near the top in pve charts because, even if the class is a disjointed mess of skills that don't really follow a theme, and even though everything in the class has been nerfed to the point where it's all kind of mediocre over the last 6 years, combine all of their mediocre dots and use elemental weapon with a pair of daggers where one is nirnhoned and you'll still hit 130-140k dps if you just learn how to 100% "Through the Fire and Flames" on expert in guitar hero using nothing but your feet, while you also play flight of the bumblebee on piano with your hands. What I'm saying is Nightblade does good DPS! It's just the most complicated bar setup to achieve it, whereas Warden can do the same dps by pressing 4 skill buttons.

Mr_Stach

Mayrael wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Interestingly, in most Youtube vids regarding "best class of 2022"... Magblade is at or near the top in each one.

Why? What have changed within NB toolset that he's moved from the bottom to top? Any reasons or just YT "stars" put classes in some random order? Go ahead and play some high MMR BGs on magblade and tell us how fun was to fight 4xDK or 4xTemplar teams.

I mean Templars and DK are way overtuned in PvP. So what class you play won't change that. But I wouldn't mind Magblade getting some love.

I think some people want every class to be where DK and Templar right now, personally I think they should be toned back and underperformers brought up.

exeeter702

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

The main spammable for magblade is currently... Elemental Weapon.
And it shouldn't be. It should be Swallow Soul. But Swallow Soul does less damage than Elemental Weapon, partly because Psijic Order skills cause extra damage every four casts. They nerfed Swallow Soul many times in the past, but that just made the skill kinda useless now.
Imo. Swallow Soul needs a buff to where it can be Magicka Nightblade's main spammable again. A cost reduction + damage increase could do it. They could also give it a .8 second cast time and increase the damage a lot, or make it a channel and do the same thing. Dunno, just food for thought. I used to main a magblade for the longest time. Now I haven't touched a Nightblade at all in 3 years at least, and other than the buff to path, it's only been nerfed more since then.

No sorry. There is absolutely nothing wrong with universally available skills being an optimal choice for certain classes in regards to fulfilling a role in a build. Swallow soul doesnt need to be the mandatory spammable for magblade for any measure. It does need a buff, but tha thas nothing to do with its damage shortcoming vs something like elemental weapon. Swallow soul is very explicitly designed to function as a sustain / attrition tool, not as a dps primary. Swallow soul needs ONLY 2 things:

its minor vit back. Removing it from the skill was a mistake in every way that was direct victim of ZoS' whole skill audit pass, and having minor vit on swallow soul made it "over budget" which was absolute nonsense. Nb tanks (who often spotted it for its passive benefits) werent causing balance issues certainly, NB healers in pvp werent causing balance issues and were far from unkillable.

And its heal component based on its tooltip damage, not the damage it deals to a target. This addresses the problem of overwriting stronger hot values with weaker ones when you are weaving it and happen to hit a target who just blocked or popped a defensive, gutting your stronger snap shotted hot that was running.

It does not need a damage boost.

Elemental weapon being an ideal primary for a dps focused magblade is absolutely fine. You are trading the bonus healing percentage increase, the self hot, and bonus ult generation (since you there is no other siphoning skill you will be refreshing every 4 seconds as a damage based magblade), for a minor dps gain and a defensive perk.

There is a contingent of players here that truly believe that class based skills should, for whatever reason, be definitely and objectively superior to universal skill line abilities. That has never been the case in this games entire life span and it is not how it is designed today. Different tools work for different scenarios or builds regardless of whether they are class based or not.

Everest_Lionheart

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Interestingly, in most Youtube vids regarding "best class of 2022"... Magblade is at or near the top in each one.

Why? What have changed within NB toolset that he's moved from the bottom to top? Any reasons or just YT "stars" put classes in some random order? Go ahead and play some high MMR BGs on magblade and tell us how fun was to fight 4xDK or 4xTemplar teams.

It was probably near the top in pve charts because, even if the class is a disjointed mess of skills that don't really follow a theme, and even though everything in the class has been nerfed to the point where it's all kind of mediocre over the last 6 years, combine all of their mediocre dots and use elemental weapon with a pair of daggers where one is nirnhoned and you'll still hit 130-140k dps if you just learn how to 100% "Through the Fire and Flames" on expert in guitar hero using nothing but your feet, while you also play flight of the bumblebee on piano with your hands. What I'm saying is Nightblade does good DPS! It's just the most complicated bar setup to achieve it, whereas Warden can do the same dps by pressing 4 skill buttons.

Every class does good DPS in PvE these days, it’s just everyone currently is all about MDK because it’s probably the easiest class outside of magsorc to hit ridiculous DPS even if you let your cat press the skills for you. There is zero challenge to MDK right now due to crazy long dots and unlimited sustain. Their rotation just happens to also line up with carve and stampede refresh times.

Magblade is made awkward with ele weapon and that bow proc counter that ticks along for the first 4 light attacks and has an awkward pause before the 5th tick. Get rid of those two janky things and blade would be in a much better place.

Mr_Stach

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Nightblade does good DPS! It's just the most complicated bar setup to achieve it, whereas Warden can do the same dps by pressing 4 skill buttons.

To be Fair, Warden only has 4 Damaging Abilities. I'd love to press more buttons personally.

Runefang

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Nightblade does good DPS! It's just the most complicated bar setup to achieve it, whereas Warden can do the same dps by pressing 4 skill buttons.

To be Fair, Warden only has 4 Damaging Abilities. I'd love to press more buttons personally.

I’d love to see a 4 skill warden parse, guarantee it’s awful. Nightblades are the most complex I’ll agree but at the dps ceiling Wardens are just as complex due to the cutting dive bleed window.

Easy classes are Necro which just do a static 30 second rotation, DKs which do a simple 15 second rotation and Templars which live and die on your ability to weave jabs well.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

I'm at the point now where I'm accepting that I'll change classes and try to be as mindful to not spam learn motifs or praxis on the new main, and keep funneling to my now relegated NB crafter.