Constructive criticism can only help a game. Please stop trying to invalidate it.

Frogmother

Meanwhile I do not see forums of most games as a feedback source to the devs, althought here are exceptions. How many proposals, discussions have been adapted in a way they at least go in the direction the community really wanted it to be?

The community can use the forums to discuss ideas and let off some steam (SOME! Too much may have consequences) but in the end the devs do what they want to do. In almost any game. If a player can release some anger in the forum and build up hope by posting ideas, he will play the game longer.

While your idea I logical and noble, I am very sure, it won't change anything.

Northwold

Love the OP's *purported* sentiment. But the post is in substance saying "I don't like High Isle and objectively (sic.) it's not as good as Morrowind so don't disagree with me". So, er, no.

Cardhwion

MoreTune wrote: »

It's THEIR job to defend their decisions and price tags, and our job to hold them accountable. Otherwise, the balance of power tips and the developer starts taking advantage, which is already starting to happen. I can see no objective argument for why Morrowind (which dramatically changed the game with a new class and PVP mode) and High Isles (which is adding a minigame) should have the same price tag. Whatever ZOS' limitations, they are giving us less and less, while demanding the same amount of money, and they'll continue to do so if we let them.

That's your point of view, I do not care about a new class or mechanic. I care about new zones, new quests, new story. That's what I am paying for. So I don't mind the pricing. As far as I am concerned I do not need a new mechanic to change the game, I like it just as is.

Ghanima_Atreides

Cardhwion wrote: »

That's your point of view, I do not care about a new class or mechanic. I care about new zones, new quests, new story. That's what I am paying for. So I don't mind the pricing. As far as I am concerned I do not need a new mechanic to change the game, I like it just as is.

I might share your view if the quality of the writing hadn't gone downhill and I could actually, y'know, ROLEPLAY my character as opposed to being forced to use a single set of generic dialogue lines that often make them sound like absolute idiots with the attention span of a gnat.

VaranisArano

Ankahet wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ankahet wrote: »

Another thing about true, constructive criticism, is that if it's truly constructive criticism, it won't start with things like "I don't like" or "I don't want".

Instead it'll be an explanation of why said feature doesn't work well, and provide possibilities to change it that would or may be better.

I disagree. Some things are subjective in nature. And talking about the way the game makes you feel is perfectly valid feedback.

Criticism and feedback are based in experience and trial of the content.

Disliking something especially when it isn't available yet, is only an opinion without a basis, considering the content isn't available yet.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree.

We do have a basis for disliking some aspects of the content: the Global Reveal. We can react accurately to what they told us and showed us.

I don't need to play High Isle to note that it's the same price for considerably less gameplay-changing features than Morrowind, Summerset (which I recall being cheaper anyway), and Elsweyr. High Isle is a glorified DLC in comparison. This is a problem when the whole shtick of Chapters is that we're supposed to pay cash for a non-ESO+ expansion because of its "special" features.

This card game could be a smash hit on PTS, but it still isn't a suitable special feature worth charging the full $40 for an upgrade compared to previous special features like Battlegrounds and Warden, or Jewelry crafting and Psijic Order. The more I think about it, the more buying High Isle on sale in the fall looks more like the better deal.

Kesstryl

I always try to post what I like AND what I dislike. ZOS deserves to hear what players like and not just what players don't like. Yes I do believe in holding them accountable, and I will complain when I feel like something merits my complaint. I've complained quite a bit too. But there are things I absolutely love about this game, and they need to know about what they're doing right so they keep delivering those things I love. Positive feedback is not always White Knighting. To me White Knighting is putting other player's perspective down because there are ways mechanic wise to get around said complaint and "it's not all that bad" or "suck it up and get over it". I'm against White Knighting, but I'm totally in favor of positive feedback.

_Zathras_

MoreTune wrote: »

This isn't a friendship, it's a business relationship.

Spot on.

People do forget this.

To the point on criticism regarding the Chapter: it's too late.

PTS is bug combing, and break-testing..even though bugs and game-breakers ship Live. Outside of that, we get what is already on the plate.

dinokstrunz

What I find interesting is that ZoS have never really reacted well to criticism. We see more often the games own community players defend this game more than ZoS ever will. Kinda sad really but we all know what ZoS developers think of places like the ESO forum, reddit or twitter or any social media platform when it comes to feedback for that matter.

Jaimeh

dinokstrunz wrote: »

What I find interesting is that ZoS have never really reacted well to criticism. We see more often the games own community players defend this game more than ZoS ever will. Kinda sad really but we all know what ZoS developers think of places like the ESO forum, reddit or twitter or any social media platform for that matter.

I agree, and they often double down on their defence of decisions that were critisized, for eg., recently when people critisized the advertizing respec scroll discounts, etc.

VaranisArano

_Zathras_ wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

This isn't a friendship, it's a business relationship.

Spot on.

People do forget this.

To the point on criticism regarding the Chapter: it's too late.

PTS is bug combing, and break-testing..even though bugs and game-breakers ship Live. Outside of that, we get what is already on the plate.

Yeah, everything that's been announced is done. The pace of development means that Q4 isn't going to get changed much either. I get that.


Some of this critical feedback might be taken on board for next year. Or we might get the same type of "we're busy, it's a hard year, don't expect big new features, but won't you pay the same high price" spiel for next year's storyline.

It's still worth saying.

RisenEclipse

Placing your concerns about the upcoming chapter is totally fine. They need to know those concerns, to think about possible things they can do to to ensure those things don't happen. I get that. The people making genuine concerns are fine. So are the people who don't believe those concerns will happen, and give their honest reasoning as to why those concerns are not warranted. It's a discussion right now. Both sides are perfectly entitled to speak their mind. At this moment we are all speculating on things that haven't come out. So the argument is basically a never ending battle of speculations at this point.

Honestly, we won't know what will happen until the pts. Only then can we test it out and see what the actual issues will be, and give them feedback on it.

I only have issues with the people saying that horrible things WILL happen. Or that, the game IS ruined. Or vice versa, saying that this IS the best thing that could happen to the game. You can't see into the future, and are merely speculating with the rest of us. I don't think there is any reason to freak out, or go WAY over the top with this right now. I think calmly stating your concerns and accepting that other people might not agree or see your concerns is the best thing everyone can do now until we can actually see this in action on pts.

tuxon

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

Moreover, it’s important to recognize that criticism is not an attack on the game. You can love a game deeply and still criticize its developer’s decisions. **In fact, the more you love a game, the more you should fight for it.**

The best way to protest against any decision made by any company is by closing the wallet.

If you don't agree with something but you still buy it and consume it, what's the point?

The player base of ESO (at least forums) never stops to amuse me Just wow! This is why this game is not evolving...

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

If you don't agree with something but you still buy it and consume it, what's the point?

BronzeCaiman

The thing is, this is the best way to keep the non hardcore player based engaged. The community has only gotten more and more toxic as the years went by. Harder content means more frustrating circumstances when people cannot preform. I have seen many players quit the game because of how toxic people can even in simple content.

The problem in creating a huge living world is some people forget which one is real.

If you ever played any online CCG, you would know even this will have toxic player (especially given the state of the playerbase). Players who will wait out turn timers just because they know they are going to lose, and with all the hate this is getting I feel like people will probably just do it on purpose to ruin the game mode for those who like it.

The only people who actually stick around in this game are, Role players, solo players & raiding players in endgame communities. The PUG aspect of this game has been left to rot just as much as PvP, because they cater to what these "perfect players" want in terms of group endgame PvE. If we had, enforced roles in group finder, invisible walls to prevent skipping until the adds are killed, it would be a step in the right direction.

So many players are about the reward without the journey. Vocal community doesn't want content nerfed, but become toxic when others don't meet their standards for content. People complain about how they don't want trifecta achievements shared because they want to earn it on different characters. It's players who are bored with the game but keep playing, they have done everything and more, and still want more. In other words, people who will never be happy.

If you ask me, finishing the content faster should be the reward of top tier performance, not just finishing the content. V trials will continue to be exclusive content as your average player still cannot clear a Veteran Craglorn Trial on Hard Mode 7 years later. Systems that can keep casuals away from the toxic endgamers are better, because when you even speak about nerfing the old content, you are washed away in a river of endgame tears. Maybe ZoS could add some achievements like "be #1 on the leaderboard" for X Trial, but the endgame communities ignore leaderboards even though it was literally made for them.

I hope the combat never gets updated with skill lines to be honest. Endgamers seem to enjoy chasing the meta so they can save 5 minutes, even though you should be playing video games when you have time to spare. But time to spare is not 4 hours with a pug(or any group) trying to clear a vTrial with underperformers, that's a second job. And having to submit a parse is sending in your résumé.

TLDR; this is the best addition to the game for the playerbase that doesn't get to play group content because of the combat, difficulty and other players keeping them away from it.

spartaxoxo

Ankahet wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ankahet wrote: »

Another thing about true, constructive criticism, is that if it's truly constructive criticism, it won't start with things like "I don't like" or "I don't want".

Instead it'll be an explanation of why said feature doesn't work well, and provide possibilities to change it that would or may be better.

I disagree. Some things are subjective in nature. And talking about the way the game makes you feel is perfectly valid feedback.

Criticism and feedback are based in experience and trial of the content.

Disliking something especially when it isn't available yet, is only an opinion without a basis, considering the content isn't available yet.

You don't need to try every CCG to know that you dislike CCGs, nor to dislike the impacts they tend to have on games and the way they tend to be monetized. That's one example. Sometimes people have a pretty good idea of what they'll like or dislike. I'm not saying they shouldn't be opened minded, but the whole point of teasers is to give us a first impression of the content. And there's nothing wrong with that first impression being bad.

DagenHawk

Bro...screaming (and yes it is shrill screaming at this point) about the game sucking is the vast majority of the so called criticism. Some haters even admit they want to be as negative as possible because they believe that is the only way to summon TES 6.

I have been on Discords and reddits that are dedicated to bashing the game...not giving constructive criticism... bashing.

I just don't understand...if the game is hated that much by the small vocal minority why stay for eight years screaming about how much it sucks?

But this argument has been going on since beta. The vast majority of players don't even show their faces on the forum, they play the game, and all their interactions are in game, and the game is a money making dynamo despite the few voices of hate on the forum.

The next time folks want to Bash the devs, just remember they are hitting all their marks with the investors...yet they still try to interface with people who literally hate them.

But hey I'm talking to a wall here none of this will ever change, but that also means that ESO will be a Tsunami of cash for the next decade or so.

kaushad

MoreTune wrote: »

"Chapters are about the new zone, not gameplay features."

That is constructive feedback. If the developers read it or any other posts here, it tells them that the player cares about new zones. If the developers make their DLC based on feedback on this forum and all the feedback dismisses the value of exploring new zones, we may get an utterly vapid zone next year or they might just not bother with zones any more. I think that chapters already suffer from something like this, as Q4 DLC tend to have more interesting world building and writing for their size and price. I don't think that the new gameplay features are to blame for this, but I do want ZOS to make better zones.

Marcus_Thracius

Elsonso

kaushad wrote: »

MoreTune wrote: »

"Chapters are about the new zone, not gameplay features."

That is constructive feedback. If the developers read it or any other posts here, it tells them that the player cares about new zones. If the developers make their DLC based on feedback on this forum and all the feedback dismisses the value of exploring new zones, we may get an utterly vapid zone next year or they might just not bother with zones any more. I think that chapters already suffer from something like this, as Q4 DLC tend to have more interesting world building and writing for their size and price. I don't think that the new gameplay features are to blame for this, but I do want ZOS to make better zones.

Uh. I don't think that is how any of this works. No need to worry that if the forum dislikes a feature it means ZOS will simply walk away.

TheImperfect

I agree with OP mostly but there gets a point when the criticism floods every thread - ones that have a specific topic and it totally derails the discussion of something where the criticism isn't really relevant. I think if people are having strong reactions then yes they should discuss how they feel and what they think but in the most relevant place instead of just all over which doesn't even serve them in getting it seen.

kaushad

Elsonso wrote: »

Uh. I don't think that is how any of this works. No need to worry that if the forum dislikes a feature it means ZOS will simply walk away.

It's hypothetical. My point is that if the negative feedback on here did influence ESO's direction, then for some of us, the game would get worse.