Thoughts from a Disappointed Breton Fan

Sylas_Orin

I was pretty hyped up for the Chapter reveal, so much so that I had written another write-up posted here, but after seeing the reveal, I cannot help but feel severely disappointed about the direction ZOS has decided to take, because Bretons are medieval the same way Nords are vikings. It is a gross oversimplification that completely stumps the finer points.

That's not to say I do not like the medieval flair. It is part of what first piqued my interest in them, after all, but there is so much more to them than that. In TES3, Bretons were described as creative and intelligent thinkers, even begrudgingly, as well as powerful and talented spellcasters, yet from what was shown in the reveal it was a low-magic setting with your typical feudal flair. Were it not for the ALTMER casting a few spells, I could have easily mistaken it for a typical medieval game. There were no great displays of magic being shown in the gameplay, nor any indication that the Bretons were an enlightened and scholarly race.

And this is a shame, because for all of its faults and flaws, even though base game ESO did a lot to muck up Bretons, it also did quite a lot to set them apart. ESO was the game to make it clear that serfs in High Rock are free to strike out on their own to earn fame and rise to the ranks of nobility, completely unlike serfdom IRL. The use of guillotines as in Wayrest implied the Bretons might favor humane executions. The Bretons' tavern songs and Emeric’s autobiography indicated that the Bretons value freedom, which lined up with how Darius Shano was free to mock commoners, nobility, the gods, clergymen and even royalty with impunity in previous TES games. There was even a mention of High Rock having a Rights Charter, which could possibly read like the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.

Despite its flaws, base game ESO had given the Bretons far more inspiration from the Renaissance and Enlightenment Era than the race had ever had, before. And so it is a shame to see ZOS seemingly walk back on what they set up. Perhaps what I brought up is planned, or perhaps it can be snuck in, or perhaps they can host a Loremaster Q&A to give Breton fans a chance to ask about these things, but for now, I cannot help but feel immensely disappointed with the reveal. I hope I am proven wrong, that some of this is included, but for now, I cannot say I am all that hyped, anymore.

jlmurra2

I am a Breton fan as well. If you would have told me anytime prior that I would feel as I do now, after the announcement of a Breton chapter, and a year long focus on Breton lore would be happening, I would find it difficult to believe.

Gaebriel0410

As a longtime Breton fan, I'm actually very excited about what I saw and read, there's an interview with the ESO loremaster that specifically mentioned exploring the shared ancestry of man and mer, their magic and even the Druids of Galen!

The High Isle Chapter brings Bretons back into the spotlight. The Bretons are a race that has not been explored too deeply in Elder Scrolls games aside from Elder Scrolls Online and Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. They are the descendants of both Man and Mer, a heritage that gives every Breton a basic aptitude for magic. According to Leamon Tuttle, High Isle will explore the roots of this feudalistic race, exploring their magical ancestry both Elven and otherwise – namely, Druidism.

"This is something that was mentioned very briefly in Arena, and it was one of those things like, 'What are the druids of Galen? What's that all about?'" Tuttle said. "We never really had an answer, but High Isle is giving us an opportunity to dig into these really ancient roots of Breton culture that are related to, but separate from, their time with the Direnni... we wanted to lean into some aspects of Breton culture that haven't really been messed with, including the magic part."

Sylas_Orin

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

As a longtime Breton fan, I'm actually very excited about what I saw and read, there's an interview with the ESO loremaster that specifically mentioned exploring the shared ancestry of man and mer, their magic and even the Druids of Galen!

The High Isle Chapter brings Bretons back into the spotlight. The Bretons are a race that has not been explored too deeply in Elder Scrolls games aside from Elder Scrolls Online and Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. They are the descendants of both Man and Mer, a heritage that gives every Breton a basic aptitude for magic. According to Leamon Tuttle, High Isle will explore the roots of this feudalistic race, exploring their magical ancestry both Elven and otherwise – namely, Druidism.

"This is something that was mentioned very briefly in Arena, and it was one of those things like, 'What are the druids of Galen? What's that all about?'" Tuttle said. "We never really had an answer, but High Isle is giving us an opportunity to dig into these really ancient roots of Breton culture that are related to, but separate from, their time with the Direnni... we wanted to lean into some aspects of Breton culture that haven't really been messed with, including the magic part."

That is definitely one thing to be excited about, but I am more morose about how Bretons were described as inventive wizards, and how children were noted to cast spells on the streets as though it was nothing. The magical roots being explored is one thing I am hopeful for, but I am more bummed about how magic is not shown to be as common as it ought to have been, in my opinion.

I was also hoping ZOS would capitalize on the Enlightenment vibes they introduced. It would have been interesting to see how freedom, honor and rights clash in a feudal society.

luen79rwb17_ESO

It's too early to make a strong judgment we will have to play the story and what it's all about. On the surface tho the ascendant order seems to have many parallels with Dark Brotherhood but from a political perspective.

ealdwin

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

As a longtime Breton fan, I'm actually very excited about what I saw and read, there's an interview with the ESO loremaster that specifically mentioned exploring the shared ancestry of man and mer, their magic and even the Druids of Galen!

The High Isle Chapter brings Bretons back into the spotlight. The Bretons are a race that has not been explored too deeply in Elder Scrolls games aside from Elder Scrolls Online and Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. They are the descendants of both Man and Mer, a heritage that gives every Breton a basic aptitude for magic. According to Leamon Tuttle, High Isle will explore the roots of this feudalistic race, exploring their magical ancestry both Elven and otherwise – namely, Druidism.

"This is something that was mentioned very briefly in Arena, and it was one of those things like, 'What are the druids of Galen? What's that all about?'" Tuttle said. "We never really had an answer, but High Isle is giving us an opportunity to dig into these really ancient roots of Breton culture that are related to, but separate from, their time with the Direnni... we wanted to lean into some aspects of Breton culture that haven't really been messed with, including the magic part."

That is definitely one thing to be excited about, but I am more morose about how Bretons were described as inventive wizards, and how children were noted to cast spells on the streets as though it was nothing. The magical roots being explored is one thing I am hopeful for, but I am more bummed about how magic is not shown to be as common as it ought to have been, in my opinion.

ESO in general has a problem with a "lack" of magic. I don't know if it's an engine limitation or something, but all the places where there could be magic there either isn't or there is a lack of it. For example, 90% of the Mages Guild NPCs are either just standing around or reading books. There might be a glowing orb somewhere, but the students of magic are more like librarians. All of this just happens to be more noticeable with the Bretons because of their explicit connection to magic.

Hopefully there will be good showings of magic in High Isle, and the focus of the selling points is more-so on the main story and the political sides. We'll see though.

Sylas_Orin

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

It's too early to make a strong judgment we will have to play the story and what it's all about. On the surface tho the ascendant order seems to have many parallels with Dark Brotherhood but from a political perspective.

I am willing to reserve some judgement for it, to see if I am proven wrong, but I cannot say that I am particularly excited about what was shown during the global reveal.

Jeffrey530

Good lord, after playing the victim card for such a long time, Bretons got a whole chapter about them but breton fans still find stuff to complain.

Sylas_Orin

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Good lord, after playing the victim card for such a long time, Bretons got a whole chapter about them but breton fans still find stuff to complain.

I am sorry if you feel offended that I am disappointed with what they decided to focus on.

jlmurra2

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Good lord, after playing the victim card for such a long time, Bretons got a whole chapter about them but breton fans still find stuff to complain.

It's not about the Breton theme, and the potential of hopefully good lore for them, yet it is the other features that constitute the "chapter".

Gaebriel0410

I saw this earlier in a High Isle interview with the ESO lore writer, on a German MMO site. Please note I translated it as literally as possible to try and remain close to the actual quote, plus my German is a little rusty, so the sentence is a little awkward:

Even the lowest of all peasants chained to his plow has some magical aptitude and is resistant to magic because of the elven blood.

SammyKhajit

High Isle is quite far away from the main Breton areas so maybe it’s been existing in its feudal bubble?

Nevertheless, Sammy plans to introduce socialism to the locals by robbing the rich and borrowing stuff from shops.

SerenityC84

I totally agree and that is one of my biggest disappointments!

kaushad

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Good lord, after playing the victim card for such a long time, Bretons got a whole chapter about them but breton fans still find stuff to complain.

The point isn't to celebrate what Bretons already are, but to change them into a fleshed out, interesting culture like the Dunmer, Nords, Orcs, Altmer, Argonians, Khajiit and Reachmen. I still want that for Redguards, Bosmer, Colovians and Nibeneans, but they've been more developed than Bretons since before ESO.

Sylas_Orin

kaushad wrote: »

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

Good lord, after playing the victim card for such a long time, Bretons got a whole chapter about them but breton fans still find stuff to complain.

The point isn't to celebrate what Bretons already are, but to change them into a fleshed out, interesting culture like the Dunmer, Nords, Altmer, Argonians, Khajiit and Reachmen. I still want that for Redguards, Bosmer, Colovians and Nibeneans, but they've been more developed than Bretons since before ESO.

This exactly. Morrowind had some good implications with the Breton dialogue options, and ESO really tried to add onto those. I hope this chapter will take the opportunity to make what they added coexist with the feudal flair they have decided to double down on.

Gaebriel0410

Well after reading those High Isle lore interviews about what things they were delving into with the new chapter, I'm pretty pleased with what was mentioned. Besides the feudal / knightly imagery we already saw, there was talk about their magickal affinity, their shared ancestry (also most notably mentioned was the ancient non-Direnni part of it), specifically mentioning the super obscure Druids of Galen.. that sounds pretty good to me! To me there's really no doubt we'll be getting a lot of insight into Breton culture, as ESO has always delivered on that part. In previous releases they even made the khajiit of all races sound interesting to me, and that's saying a lot.

Remathilis

Isn't ESO like a 1000 years before the other TES titles? Maybe the Bretons of the 2nd age are feudal and as the century moves in they become more rennisance.

ealdwin

I will say that seeing a Dibella statue briefly in one of the clips of the zone was nice. For a race that has a knightly order and temple faction for each of the 9 Divines in the 3rd Era, their pantheon and understandings of the world were surprisingly sparse in the Base Game from what I recall.

(It's my thought that the Azura cult in Wayrest was a mistake, and we should have had a Temple of Dibella—patron deity of Menevia—and the Order of the Lily in conflict with the Supernal Dreamers rather than an ill-placed Azura cult.)

Sylas_Orin

Remathilis wrote: »

Isn't ESO like a 1000 years before the other TES titles? Maybe the Bretons of the 2nd age are feudal and as the century moves in they become more rennisance.

With how TES2 is set in Iliac Bay, it seems they become more Imperialized in the Third Era.

ealdwin wrote: »

I will say that seeing a Dibella statue briefly in one of the clips of the zone was nice. For a race that has a knightly order and temple faction for each of the 9 Divines in the 3rd Era, their pantheon and understandings of the world were surprisingly sparse in the Base Game from what I recall.

(It's my thought that the Azura cult in Wayrest was a mistake, and we should have had a Temple of Dibella—patron deity of Menevia—and the Order of the Lily in conflict with the Supernal Dreamers rather than an ill-placed Azura cult.)

Personally I loved the Pariah Abbey, because it shows that the Bretons make allowances for, or at least tolerate the more benign Daedric cults. Which imo adds to how much they emphasize freedom.

Ratharel

ESO stopped pretending to be a true ES game long time ago. It's a casual themepark in ES setting. Nice, relaxing themepark, with sparks of creativity here and there, but nothing as deep as let's say TES III lore.

Sylas_Orin

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Well after reading those High Isle lore interviews about what things they were delving into with the new chapter, I'm pretty pleased with what was mentioned. Besides the feudal / knightly imagery we already saw, there was talk about their magickal affinity, their shared ancestry (also most notably mentioned was the ancient non-Direnni part of it), specifically mentioning the super obscure Druids of Galen.. that sounds pretty good to me! To me there's really no doubt we'll be getting a lot of insight into Breton culture, as ESO has always delivered on that part. In previous releases they even made the khajiit of all races sound interesting to me, and that's saying a lot.

Indeed, but I hope they touch on mainland lore, too, not just the lore of this island. I don't want it to be an isolated thing.

ArchMikem

Perhaps it's the remote location of the Systres islands? When a colony far removed from it's Mainland exists apart, they develop differently. Perhaps the Bretons of High Isle have stagnated, or given their Direnni roots, regressed?

Yes I'm trying to justify the opposition to your valid points, I'm a natural Devil's Advocate, but still my hypothesis is logical at least.

Arunei

We only saw a brief bit of what the coming releases will have. It's too early to say that there's not enough of X or Y representation.

tuxon

Welcome to Summerset 2.0 with Leyawin buildings!

Faulgor

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

As a longtime Breton fan, I'm actually very excited about what I saw and read, there's an interview with the ESO loremaster that specifically mentioned exploring the shared ancestry of man and mer, their magic and even the Druids of Galen!

The High Isle Chapter brings Bretons back into the spotlight. The Bretons are a race that has not been explored too deeply in Elder Scrolls games aside from Elder Scrolls Online and Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall. They are the descendants of both Man and Mer, a heritage that gives every Breton a basic aptitude for magic. According to Leamon Tuttle, High Isle will explore the roots of this feudalistic race, exploring their magical ancestry both Elven and otherwise – namely, Druidism.

"This is something that was mentioned very briefly in Arena, and it was one of those things like, 'What are the druids of Galen? What's that all about?'" Tuttle said. "We never really had an answer, but High Isle is giving us an opportunity to dig into these really ancient roots of Breton culture that are related to, but separate from, their time with the Direnni... we wanted to lean into some aspects of Breton culture that haven't really been messed with, including the magic part."

What's the source for this? Why don't people post sources anymore!

When I google Tuttle's quote, this forum thread is the first thing that pops up. Where is it from!?

Edit: Found it: https://gamerant.com/elder-scrolls-online-high-isle-loremaster-lead-writer-interview/

And another one, yw: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/01/elder-scrolls-online-lore-interview

RemanCyrodiil_I

-

kaushad

Ratharel wrote: »

ESO stopped pretending to be a true ES game long time ago. It's a casual themepark in ES setting. Nice, relaxing themepark, with sparks of creativity here and there, but nothing as deep as let's say TES III lore.

Only on the ESO forum, where "1H & rune" is more important than lore, do I read this.

Hagrett

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

I was pretty hyped up for the Chapter reveal, so much so that I had written another write-up posted here, but after seeing the reveal, I cannot help but feel severely disappointed about the direction ZOS has decided to take, because Bretons are medieval the same way Nords are vikings. It is a gross oversimplification that completely stumps the finer points.

That's not to say I do not like the medieval flair. It is part of what first piqued my interest in them, after all, but there is so much more to them than that. In TES3, Bretons were described as creative and intelligent thinkers, even begrudgingly, as well as powerful and talented spellcasters, yet from what was shown in the reveal it was a low-magic setting with your typical feudal flair. Were it not for the ALTMER casting a few spells, I could have easily mistaken it for a typical medieval game. There were no great displays of magic being shown in the gameplay, nor any indication that the Bretons were an enlightened and scholarly race.

And this is a shame, because for all of its faults and flaws, even though base game ESO did a lot to muck up Bretons, it also did quite a lot to set them apart. ESO was the game to make it clear that serfs in High Rock are free to strike out on their own to earn fame and rise to the ranks of nobility, completely unlike serfdom IRL. The use of guillotines as in Wayrest implied the Bretons might favor humane executions. The Bretons' tavern songs and Emeric’s autobiography indicated that the Bretons value freedom, which lined up with how Darius Shano was free to mock commoners, nobility, the gods, clergymen and even royalty with impunity in previous TES games. There was even a mention of High Rock having a Rights Charter, which could possibly read like the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.

Despite its flaws, base game ESO had given the Bretons far more inspiration from the Renaissance and Enlightenment Era than the race had ever had, before. And so it is a shame to see ZOS seemingly walk back on what they set up. Perhaps what I brought up is planned, or perhaps it can be snuck in, or perhaps they can host a Loremaster Q&A to give Breton fans a chance to ask about these things, but for now, I cannot help but feel immensely disappointed with the reveal. I hope I am proven wrong, that some of this is included, but for now, I cannot say I am all that hyped, anymore.

You're complaining that the lore in the new zone will be shallow based on an preview video that swept over some of the landscapes and then citing lorebooks and tavern songs as interesting things from the base game, are zos meant to just sit with a random book open on the screen for the preview video? I remember complaints about High Rock being too generic in the base game zone preview pictures etc that people saw pre-release.

Isn't this complaint a little premature? Don't get me wrong; they could drop the ball and make it dull and generic, but at least wait until there's something to actually be annoyed about if this is the angle you are looking at it from.

Marto

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

ESO was the game to make it clear that serfs in High Rock are free to strike out on their own to earn fame and rise to the ranks of nobility, completely unlike serfdom IRL. The use of guillotines as in Wayrest implied the Bretons might favor humane executions. The Bretons' tavern songs and Emeric’s autobiography indicated that the Bretons value freedom, which lined up with how Darius Shano was free to mock commoners, nobility, the gods, clergymen and even royalty with impunity in previous TES games. There was even a mention of High Rock having a Rights Charter, which could possibly read like the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.

That's stuff that's going to be explicitly present in the High Isles expansion. From everything we've heard, the Ascendant Lord is the leader of some sort of anti-monarchy group, perhaps even with enlightenment-era ideas like republicanism or democracy.

From his point of view, he's bringing freedom to the Bretons.

I guess it could be a bit disappointing that the antagonist is the one with all these cool ideas. I personally hope we get to see some other philosophers that share the Ascendant Lord's ideas, but greatly dislike his methods.

The way I see it, ZOS didn't "walk back" on the Breton lore they introduced. They are expanding upon it and reinforcing it.

YstradClud

The reveal did seem to me to show that it isn't going to be a cultural deep dive as much as its going to be about the three banners war and the shadow conspiracy. They did talk about feudalism and chivalry though which you would associate with certain parts of Breton culture at least. I'm actually am quite interested in what the Ascendant Order is all about and what they are fighting for now though.

francesinhalover

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

I was pretty hyped up for the Chapter reveal, so much so that I had written another write-up posted here, but after seeing the reveal, I cannot help but feel severely disappointed about the direction ZOS has decided to take, because Bretons are medieval the same way Nords are vikings. It is a gross oversimplification that completely stumps the finer points.

That's not to say I do not like the medieval flair. It is part of what first piqued my interest in them, after all, but there is so much more to them than that. In TES3, Bretons were described as creative and intelligent thinkers, even begrudgingly, as well as powerful and talented spellcasters, yet from what was shown in the reveal it was a low-magic setting with your typical feudal flair. Were it not for the ALTMER casting a few spells, I could have easily mistaken it for a typical medieval game. There were no great displays of magic being shown in the gameplay, nor any indication that the Bretons were an enlightened and scholarly race.

And this is a shame, because for all of its faults and flaws, even though base game ESO did a lot to muck up Bretons, it also did quite a lot to set them apart. ESO was the game to make it clear that serfs in High Rock are free to strike out on their own to earn fame and rise to the ranks of nobility, completely unlike serfdom IRL. The use of guillotines as in Wayrest implied the Bretons might favor humane executions. The Bretons' tavern songs and Emeric’s autobiography indicated that the Bretons value freedom, which lined up with how Darius Shano was free to mock commoners, nobility, the gods, clergymen and even royalty with impunity in previous TES games. There was even a mention of High Rock having a Rights Charter, which could possibly read like the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.

Despite its flaws, base game ESO had given the Bretons far more inspiration from the Renaissance and Enlightenment Era than the race had ever had, before. And so it is a shame to see ZOS seemingly walk back on what they set up. Perhaps what I brought up is planned, or perhaps it can be snuck in, or perhaps they can host a Loremaster Q&A to give Breton fans a chance to ask about these things, but for now, I cannot help but feel immensely disappointed with the reveal. I hope I am proven wrong, that some of this is included, but for now, I cannot say I am all that hyped, anymore.

Doesnt es3 happen like 1000 years after eso?
You wanted a summerset 2.0 with medieval vibes? When legit all dc storyline has bretons using mostly swords