Adding a guild kick message ?

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It would be more along the lines of

"Hello,

You were removed from the Mega Trader Super Guild for failure to meet donation requirements (or sales reqs on PC, I suppose). While we would love to be able to have you and you're welcome to reapply, all members must meet minimum requirements to remain in the guild. If you would like to discuss this further or believe you were kicked in error, please contact Guild Leader.

Thank you and safe travels adventurer,

Guild Leader."

Wouldn't it be better to have that discussion before kicking the member?

Either way, if the guild leader has to write out an explanation anyway then why not just write it in a mail?

A lot of times it doesn't happen before because guild leaders make a lot of roster changes at once in pre-set batches. And then remove people at pre-determined times, which they typically explain in their MOTD.

From there, many of them do write why in a mail, hence the request. It just replaces making them write a personalized mail for very standard kick reasons to multiple people every few weeks with a more typical form letter so it takes less of their time to write the mail. And naturally they want to retain the ability to write a personal one if it's necessary but frankly it's often not.

FeedbackOnly

It's time for guild updates

IsharaMeradin

Given that the notification system only shows notifications when the receiving player is online and does not collect notifications while offline to display when they do come online this idea would be of limited benefit. Might as well just whisper them at that point...

I do like the idea of players being notified as to the reason(s) that they were kicked from a guild. Especially when there was no obvious warning that it would happen. But joining a guild is an "at will" activity. This means that the player can leave at any time with or without reason and the guild can kick at any time with or without reason. Neither party should feel like they are forced to share a message as to why they left or gave them the boot.

spartaxoxo

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CaliphStudio

IsharaMeradin wrote: »

Given that the notification system only shows notifications when the receiving player is online and does not collect notifications while offline to display when they do come online this idea would be of limited benefit. Might as well just whisper them at that point...

I do like the idea of players being notified as to the reason(s) that they were kicked from a guild. Especially when there was no obvious warning that it would happen. But joining a guild is an "at will" activity. This means that the player can leave at any time with or without reason and the guild can kick at any time with or without reason. Neither party should feel like they are forced to share a message as to why they left or gave them the boot.

To answer first paragraph, no, notifications are delivered regardless. I am not sure what notifications you are talking about but the only ones being "Online-only" are leaderboards, you get notified when your guild changes message of the day when you log in if you were offline, same with getting your application rejected (something similar to getting kicked, which exists, but somehow about kicks it becomes controversial for some people). so your first paragraph is simply wrong.

Second one, nobody here is talking about being forced. I have personally observed how my members deal with these stuff, I have literally randomly stumbled upon my members I knew by name whom got kicked for whatever reason, asking them out and them saying they want to join back, but werent sure if they can after not doing their duty, we have other ones messaging me on discord with hate thinking we did things wrong, just to see me explain properly and them invite thme back which makes them feel amazing.

A message does all of that for us at once, despite what some people think, the majority of players dont read guild descriptions, and assuming them as undeserving is also wrong, it is a common human habit, and this is not a job application.

This whole system is not here to justify anybody's actions, its just a suggestion to make the situation better than it currently is, and is not a necessity at all.

Without it the game goes on, with it, it still does so, but with more smiles in it.

Kwoung

Hoping this helps someone...
For those on PC, this doesn't apply to consoles, my guild trims it's ranks monthly, although our system could work weekly as well. Basically, we have a pre-kick rank, which once you are put into it during our monthly adjustments, an officer will send an email to all members of that rank (using Godsend) explaining our rules and why they may have been demoted. It also explains that if they do not take corrective action, which in our case is a very tiny 4k/mo requirement met in any number of ways other than depositing 4k in the guild bank, that they will be removed during the next go around, so they have 30 days to fix it (could be a week in your case).

30 days later, we scan that rank for folks that should be promoted out, promote them, then boot the rest. We then demote those who didn't meet the reqs in the past month and start over.

While it doesn't alert them at the time of kick, which I guess we actually could if we wanted to put in the extra work (which we don't), it gave them fair warning and told them how to remain a member.

That said, guilds in ESO could seriously use some lovin from ZOS. If it wasn't for addons, managing a guild is more than a full time job for anything but a social guild. I am speaking from experience, as most of the tools we now use to manage members didn't exist back when our guild started, and I have soooo many spreadsheets and guild management sucked up like 20-30 hours a week... it was crazy.

If anyone is interested, the addons we use now are:
Godsend Guild Mail Tool (Send emails by rank)
GuildBankLedger (We count item donations towards dues)
ITTs Donation Bot (We count gold towards dues, including raffle entries and crown exchange deposits)
ITTs Roster Bot (Gives great info and filtering)
Arkadius Trade Tools (We count sales tax towards dues)

Amottica

CaliphStudio wrote: »

As for why notifications, because for such a core system (guilds in a MMO), notifications just make sense, exactly like what you get when joining (or getting rejected) a guild via applications, the server sending a mail telling you, you got kicked, is simply a flawed design. mails are used either for messages including an item, when things can be considered a spam, meaning they are used alot, things that might need to be logged like a message with important information in it, or for exceptions (A game master sending a mail), simple systematic text is why we have notifications in the first place.

I dont see a guild kick message being in any category.

I agree an automatic notification should go out when a player is removed from a guild but it should only state they were removed from (Guild Name).

They likely already know why they were kicked from the guild. If it was for creating destructive drama or treating a fellow member poorly there is not much need to say anything at that player is likely already aware of their poor behavior. If it was because they were not meeting guild requirements like activity in the guild, sales quota, or DPS requirement they already know what was expected if the leadership is half decent. If the leader just went on a bender kicking players just because, well, it is probably good to be out of that guild.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

CaliphStudio wrote: »

As for why notifications, because for such a core system (guilds in a MMO), notifications just make sense, exactly like what you get when joining (or getting rejected) a guild via applications, the server sending a mail telling you, you got kicked, is simply a flawed design. mails are used either for messages including an item, when things can be considered a spam, meaning they are used alot, things that might need to be logged like a message with important information in it, or for exceptions (A game master sending a mail), simple systematic text is why we have notifications in the first place.

I dont see a guild kick message being in any category.

I agree an automatic notification should go out when a player is removed from a guild but it should only state they were removed from (Guild Name).

They likely already know why they were kicked from the guild. If it was for creating destructive drama or treating a fellow member poorly there is not much need to say anything at that player is likely already aware of their poor behavior. If it was because they were not meeting guild requirements like activity in the guild, sales quota, or DPS requirement they already know what was expected if the leadership is half decent. If the leader just went on a bender kicking players just because, well, it is probably good to be out of that guild.

A lot of people do know, but also there's plenty that don't. Some people didn't read the MOTD, and some people end up not fulfilling those requirements because they are going through some hard *** in their lives and just didn't realize. Often times just a message can get both groups of people to meet the requirements, and in some extreme cases the guild leaders will waive the requirements.

CaliphStudio

Also in many cases (which is the main reason for this thread) people getting kicked think they are unwelcome, they are the ones who have made a mistake and are not allowed in, while from a leader's standpoint, mistakes could be fine and we always love to have people back, specially in regards to newbies or those who are not as comfortable with social interactions.

No matter how much you tell them they are welcome back in, in guild description, not only majority wont read that, but many will still hesitate, wondering if its just been a nice message for everybody or they are actually wanted back, or if it included people who got kicked for other reasons.

A nice messaged attached to the kick notification can show them that YOU, the one who just got kicked for this reason, is always welcome back, regardless of requirements.

Also in a seperate message you could explain everything in a nice and detailed way, message of the day and guild description dont allow that, if you spend so much time talking about those who got kicked and how they are welcome, you will not only make the whole thing confusing and boring (Leading in more people not reading it, I doubt most of us here read those long message of the day messages every time with full detail), but you also hit the character limit, which is very small (2k) and Ive already hit that without being able to even write down all the guild related info, let alone after kick message.
While a dedicated message to kicks can allow that. it can be specified and built for its purpose, being far more effective than any guild description just.

Just like we have a different page for our guild applications, allowing us to seperate the info for people inside the guild, and those who are considering to come, each to meet their purpose. Im sure the one deciding to join your guild doesnt care about the name of your guildhouse player, or your every sunday fishing event, seperation allows efficiency.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

CaliphStudio wrote: »

As for why notifications, because for such a core system (guilds in a MMO), notifications just make sense, exactly like what you get when joining (or getting rejected) a guild via applications, the server sending a mail telling you, you got kicked, is simply a flawed design. mails are used either for messages including an item, when things can be considered a spam, meaning they are used alot, things that might need to be logged like a message with important information in it, or for exceptions (A game master sending a mail), simple systematic text is why we have notifications in the first place.

I dont see a guild kick message being in any category.

I agree an automatic notification should go out when a player is removed from a guild but it should only state they were removed from (Guild Name).

They likely already know why they were kicked from the guild. If it was for creating destructive drama or treating a fellow member poorly there is not much need to say anything at that player is likely already aware of their poor behavior. If it was because they were not meeting guild requirements like activity in the guild, sales quota, or DPS requirement they already know what was expected if the leadership is half decent. If the leader just went on a bender kicking players just because, well, it is probably good to be out of that guild.

A lot of people do know, but also there's plenty that don't. Some people didn't read the MOTD, and some people end up not fulfilling those requirements because they are going through some hard *** in their lives and just didn't realize. Often times just a message can get both groups of people to meet the requirements, and in some extreme cases the guild leaders will waive the requirements.

But this speaks to the leadership not doing actual leading to start with if they are doing nothing more than posting in MOTD to let people know of the requirements. Nothing Zenimax can do will make weak leaders into good leaders. 😊

SilverBride

[deleted by poster]

hafgood

I'm afraid you will never sell me on this idea. As I said before I totally see it as a management or HR tool made to make them feel good about kicking people.

It doesn't make the recipient feel nice, they will know that it's system generated even if someone had to write it in the first place. It just makes the recipient feel even lower.

Oh we kicked you, have a nice message telling you why that we send to everyone we kick, so it's not a personal message from the guild, its just something we do because we feel better about ourselves for doing so. Oh and yes of course you are welcome back, we want your money to help fund our guild trader. We could have messaged you in game to let you know but felt the personal touch wasn't needed as we knew we could give you a twee message when we kicked you.

I've had plenty of managers who would love this, as a manager myself I hate it, I prefer the personal touch, amd for it to be personal it has to be personal not a generic message, which is what this is.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

CaliphStudio wrote: »

As for why notifications, because for such a core system (guilds in a MMO), notifications just make sense, exactly like what you get when joining (or getting rejected) a guild via applications, the server sending a mail telling you, you got kicked, is simply a flawed design. mails are used either for messages including an item, when things can be considered a spam, meaning they are used alot, things that might need to be logged like a message with important information in it, or for exceptions (A game master sending a mail), simple systematic text is why we have notifications in the first place.

I dont see a guild kick message being in any category.

I agree an automatic notification should go out when a player is removed from a guild but it should only state they were removed from (Guild Name).

They likely already know why they were kicked from the guild. If it was for creating destructive drama or treating a fellow member poorly there is not much need to say anything at that player is likely already aware of their poor behavior. If it was because they were not meeting guild requirements like activity in the guild, sales quota, or DPS requirement they already know what was expected if the leadership is half decent. If the leader just went on a bender kicking players just because, well, it is probably good to be out of that guild.

A lot of people do know, but also there's plenty that don't. Some people didn't read the MOTD, and some people end up not fulfilling those requirements because they are going through some hard *** in their lives and just didn't realize. Often times just a message can get both groups of people to meet the requirements, and in some extreme cases the guild leaders will waive the requirements.

But this speaks to the leadership not doing actual leading to start with if they are doing nothing more than posting in MOTD to let people know of the requirements. Nothing Zenimax can do will make weak leaders into good leaders. 😊

No. No it doesn't speak to that at all. There is more than one management style, and sending a message through a notification is a tool. It's frankly preposterous to define leadership by the messaging tools in the game.

spartaxoxo

hafgood wrote: »

I've had plenty of managers who would love this, as a manager myself I hate it, I prefer the personal touch, amd for it to be personal it has to be personal not a generic message, which is what this is.

As a manager myself, I think people largely don't care about a form letter being used or what the general tools you use are. I think what they care about is that they are listened to, treated with respect when interacting with you, and that you're able to take criticism and concerns without them fearing retaliation. They also generally don't want you breathing down their necks micromanaging them, but do want you to feel available to them should they need you.

I think if someone gets extremely angry that a form letter was used when they were kicked from a guild, the communication probably broke down long before that. People tend to understand when someone has multiple letters to send out that they might use something quick like that, what tends to matter to them is how you follow up any questions or concerns they may have.

But again that's my experience. I just don't think we're gonna agree. I have literally never had anyone get upset about such a thing, and I have had plenty of experience.

LashanW

CaliphStudio wrote: »

There is something I seriously dont get about these comments, you keep saying why its on players to do this and that but nobody talks about what is the harm in such a system existing?

Welcome to the forums, where most will never agree with your request unless it benefits them directly. And some will react as they are the ones who have to do the development

Thankfully ZoS is more reasonable or else we'd never have all these QoL features in different areas of the game.

As someone who's been in 500 member busy trading guilds, I would like this feature. I was once kicked from a trading guild because I was offline for 8 days (guild had 7day no offline policy). I was only away from ESO for 4 days, but I forgot to swap to online status for 4 days straight when I came back (busy days where I only played for like 20 minutes a day).

Had to message a guild officer (big joint trading guilds have more than 1 person managing the members) on discord and take the time to figure out the issue as I was sure that I definitely met the sales requirement. Was a facepalm moment when we figured out the cause. Would've been much easier if this feature was there.

CaliphStudio

LashanW wrote: »

Welcome to the forums, where most will never agree with your request unless it benefits them directly. And some will react as they are the ones who have to do the development

As I have noticed ^^. but thankfully I got what I needed from this post.

The post got enough attention, and not a single person disagreeing could explain articulately why the system can be harmful.

Even those saying its unnecessary and relating it to bad management, did not tell us what good management looks like, should we randomly whisper players and tell them guild related stuff ? or spam guild chat or their mails ? I would love to hear about some amazing management strategies about how to make sure every single member knows how exactly everything works in the guild...

So yes Im happy with this post ^^.

CaliphStudio

hafgood wrote: »

I'm afraid you will never sell me on this idea. As I said before I totally see it as a management or HR tool made to make them feel good about kicking people.

It doesn't make the recipient feel nice, they will know that it's system generated even if someone had to write it in the first place. It just makes the recipient feel even lower.

Oh we kicked you, have a nice message telling you why that we send to everyone we kick, so it's not a personal message from the guild, its just something we do because we feel better about ourselves for doing so. Oh and yes of course you are welcome back, we want your money to help fund our guild trader. We could have messaged you in game to let you know but felt the personal touch wasn't needed as we knew we could give you a twee message when we kicked you.

I've had plenty of managers who would love this, as a manager myself I hate it, I prefer the personal touch, and for it to be personal it has to be personal not a generic message, which is what this is.

Even if so I dont see any harm in it .

Kicking somebody from a guild (for fully respectable reasons like not selling anything in a trading guild and filling up the space other people could put to use) is far different from kicking an employee from a job.

All the guild masters love people who interact with the guild properly, and all of them feel good kicking players, because the only reason they kick is to open more space for new people to come, its not some evil fact for us to need a nice apology message to make ourselves feel good, no matter what you think.

The only one feeling good would be the member knowing they can join back, as previously thinking they have done something bad and therefore are not welcome anymore.

As to leaders, none of us care about being overly nice to people as to what we do is only to make sure of our guilds' survival.

hafgood

People have articulated their reasons as to why they disagree. Just because you disagree with them is no reason to dismiss their objections.

You have not sold me on this idea. I have explained why. You have dismissed my objection as irrelevant.

Just confirms my opinion on this suggestion, which is it is not needed.

LightningWitch

If there's going to be changes to the guild system, also remove the unnecessary announcements of who has joined/left the guild.

I don't care.

SerafinaWaterstar

@Kwoung - Actually, iirc, some trading guilds on console do this ie lowest rank has no access to store so if you haven’t paid your dues or sold enough, you have a week or so to sort out.

If you join a trading guild, you have the responsibility of knowing what you need to do for continued membership. Surely if you think you have been kicked unfairly you can still contact the GM and ask? I am not sure why there is a need for such a message - I agree with the poster who considers it rather patronising.

If so bothered about ‘wrongfully’ kicking someone as they haven’t met the requirements for the guild, surely that can be addressed prior to kicking?