Ideal new class assuming one is coming.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

None. If anything new skillines would be much better than yet another class that is just the same as others but with cliché themes and colour choice.
Would be much more fitting to Elder Scrolls with our characters having more skill options.

• Battlemage abilities shouldn't be exclusive to that class. Sorcerers should be able to do alteration spells and such too.
• More physical skilline? Same there, it shouldn't be exclusive to some "barbarian".
• Bards? The fighting-music type is not a thing in Elder Scrolls.
• Monks? Would be yet another class like Warden that is weirdly themed to a province. In this case Elsweyr and khajiit claw-dances. Unarmed skillines would be better.
• Witchhunter? What any class with Fighter's Guild abilities?
• etc

The only classes I would be interested is battlemage and monk/unarmed fighter, but between class and skilline I will choose skillines. Skillines are also better with the lacking character slots.

Kwoung

Classes in ESO are mostly pointless, except maybe for role play purposes. That said, if they were to roll out a new class it will follow the current model which is:

1. You will have to buy the latest chapter to get access to it.
2. It will be a "must buy" because it is completely OP.
3. It will dominate both PVE & PVP.
4. It will be nerfed and brought back in line or made worst than every other class, after they have reached their sales target.

Also, I thought they were not doing anything big this year so they could focus on fixing the game?

fakingfocused

Barbarian

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Why I'm defending the idea of Barbarian in particular is because it was nominated as an option, and I don't think the arguments against it stand up. Also, its a core archetype in TES franchise and fantasy games, its popular request, and currently there's no satisfying way to do that power fantasy unless you subscribe to the notion that you can make anything approaching viability by ignoring your entire class toolkit.

I couldn't agree more with you points as they are all parallel with what I am trying to express. (And the other pro "barbarian" supporters In this post)

Also the shaman suggestion to incorporate more versatility was great!


I would care as much what you call the class but as one variety of options I would love to build into the concept of an in your face berserking barbarian. And to neglect this as an option in this genre of gaming I feel would be a huge shame. And I think that is what people are asking for to fulfill those classical roles while finding a way to accommodate everyone. It's a tall order no doubt, but to neglect them entirely would be more of a disservice IMO.

Supreme_Atromancer

Battlemage/Spellsword

Deter1UK wrote: »

Schools of Magic don't yet exist in the Mage's Guild - there is a book about this to be found in Cyrodil -

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Proposal:_Schools_of_Magic

So any introduction of Alteration etc would have to be based around Shad Astula and would be Lore-stretching at best
not to mention the massive amount of dev work involved - somewhat unlikely unfortunately.

I think that early on, ZOS intended to tackle the schools of magic. The Spellcrafting system we saw previewed back in 2014 used them. Their implementation seemed to have been centred around The Mage's Guild, and was only meant to be available after you had returned Eyvea to Mundus. I guess the rationale would have been something like- having Eyvea returned endowed the Mage's Guild with the capacity to develop what would become the Schools of Magic from the rudimentary roots they had before.

Fair enough but what toolkit would you envisage out of interest?

Good call, I have no clue lol. But then, not being a game developer, I'm probably not qualified to come up with the class gimmicks, or how it would play anyway. I will say, though, that the skill system is essentially abstract mechanics and raw numbers dressed up with whatever visuals they feel are evocative. I think they could come up with whatever sort of gameplay gimmick they felt would be interesting and new, and dress it in Barbariany effects.

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

None. If anything new skillines would be much better than yet another class that is just the same as others but with cliché themes and colour choice.
Would be much more fitting to Elder Scrolls with our characters having more skill options.

• Battlemage abilities shouldn't be exclusive to that class. Sorcerers should be able to do alteration spells and such too.
• More physical skilline? Same there, it shouldn't be exclusive to some "barbarian".
• Bards? The fighting-music type is not a thing in Elder Scrolls.
• Monks? Would be yet another class like Warden that is weirdly themed to a province. In this case Elsweyr and khajiit claw-dances. Unarmed skillines would be better.
• Witchhunter? What any class with Fighter's Guild abilities?
• etc

The only classes I would be interested is battlemage and monk/unarmed fighter, but between class and skilline I will choose skillines. Skillines are also better with the lacking character slots.

Bard is literally a class in Elder Scrolls as is Witchhunter. And Witchhunter’s specialise in using magic to augment their archery skills.

the1andonlyskwex

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

None. If anything new skillines would be much better than yet another class that is just the same as others but with cliché themes and colour choice.
Would be much more fitting to Elder Scrolls with our characters having more skill options.

• Battlemage abilities shouldn't be exclusive to that class. Sorcerers should be able to do alteration spells and such too.
• More physical skilline? Same there, it shouldn't be exclusive to some "barbarian".
• Bards? The fighting-music type is not a thing in Elder Scrolls.
• Monks? Would be yet another class like Warden that is weirdly themed to a province. In this case Elsweyr and khajiit claw-dances. Unarmed skillines would be better.
• Witchhunter? What any class with Fighter's Guild abilities?
• etc

The only classes I would be interested is battlemage and monk/unarmed fighter, but between class and skilline I will choose skillines. Skillines are also better with the lacking character slots.

Bard is literally a class in Elder Scrolls.

But it's just a warrior/mage/thief hybrid. None of its abilities have anything to do with music.

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

None. If anything new skillines would be much better than yet another class that is just the same as others but with cliché themes and colour choice.
Would be much more fitting to Elder Scrolls with our characters having more skill options.

• Battlemage abilities shouldn't be exclusive to that class. Sorcerers should be able to do alteration spells and such too.
• More physical skilline? Same there, it shouldn't be exclusive to some "barbarian".
• Bards? The fighting-music type is not a thing in Elder Scrolls.
• Monks? Would be yet another class like Warden that is weirdly themed to a province. In this case Elsweyr and khajiit claw-dances. Unarmed skillines would be better.
• Witchhunter? What any class with Fighter's Guild abilities?
• etc

The only classes I would be interested is battlemage and monk/unarmed fighter, but between class and skilline I will choose skillines. Skillines are also better with the lacking character slots.

Bard is literally a class in Elder Scrolls.

But it's just a warrior/mage/thief hybrid. None of its abilities have anything to do with music.

That is true, but I didn’t see anyone mention that a bard would use music as an attack. That’s why the comment was so weird to me, and it read like bards never have existed in Elder Scrolls.

the1andonlyskwex

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

None. If anything new skillines would be much better than yet another class that is just the same as others but with cliché themes and colour choice.
Would be much more fitting to Elder Scrolls with our characters having more skill options.

• Battlemage abilities shouldn't be exclusive to that class. Sorcerers should be able to do alteration spells and such too.
• More physical skilline? Same there, it shouldn't be exclusive to some "barbarian".
• Bards? The fighting-music type is not a thing in Elder Scrolls.
• Monks? Would be yet another class like Warden that is weirdly themed to a province. In this case Elsweyr and khajiit claw-dances. Unarmed skillines would be better.
• Witchhunter? What any class with Fighter's Guild abilities?
• etc

The only classes I would be interested is battlemage and monk/unarmed fighter, but between class and skilline I will choose skillines. Skillines are also better with the lacking character slots.

Bard is literally a class in Elder Scrolls.

But it's just a warrior/mage/thief hybrid. None of its abilities have anything to do with music.

That is true, but I didn’t see anyone mention that a bard would use music as an attack. That’s why the comment was so weird to me, and it read like bards never have existed in Elder Scrolls.

Reread the thread and other threads proposing a bard class. Literally everyone who suggests it asks for it to be a buff/debuff class based on music magic.

ealdwin

Battlemage/Spellsword

Deter1UK wrote: »

Schools of Magic don't yet exist in the Mage's Guild - there is a book about this to be found in Cyrodil -

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Proposal:_Schools_of_Magic

So any introduction of Alteration etc would have to be based around Shad Astula and would be Lore-stretching at best
not to mention the massive amount of dev work involved - somewhat unlikely unfortunately.

I can't really blame people for not remembering that tidbit. It's so little mentioned that even ZOS forgets that lore from time to time...

"Lucilla has earned top marks in each of the schools of magic, magical and martial warfare, and contemporary studies." - https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/60537

Now, maybe the Battlespire is simply ahead of the Mages Guild, but that would mean two magical institutions—and one as notable as the Battlespire at that—have implemented a system and the Mages Guild simply is turning a blind eye. Not to mention the existence of a Destruction staff.

Of course, I bring this up not in favor of an Alteration or Illusion skill line in a new class, but rather as part of a call for individual world/guild skill lines for each school of magic that are not dependent on a particular weapon usage.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

None. If anything new skillines would be much better than yet another class that is just the same as others but with cliché themes and colour choice.
Would be much more fitting to Elder Scrolls with our characters having more skill options.

• Battlemage abilities shouldn't be exclusive to that class. Sorcerers should be able to do alteration spells and such too.
• More physical skilline? Same there, it shouldn't be exclusive to some "barbarian".
• Bards? The fighting-music type is not a thing in Elder Scrolls.
• Monks? Would be yet another class like Warden that is weirdly themed to a province. In this case Elsweyr and khajiit claw-dances. Unarmed skillines would be better.
• Witchhunter? What any class with Fighter's Guild abilities?
• etc

The only classes I would be interested is battlemage and monk/unarmed fighter, but between class and skilline I will choose skillines. Skillines are also better with the lacking character slots.

Bard is literally a class in Elder Scrolls as is Witchhunter. And Witchhunter’s specialise in using magic to augment their archery skills.

Yes, and they are just a name for a collection of skills. Which is usually blade, speechcraft, mercantile, and illusion. Same is witchhunter just a collection of skills. They both already overlap with already existing class like nightblade and the other things like mercantile and speech are not part of classes.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

None. If anything new skillines would be much better than yet another class that is just the same as others but with cliché themes and colour choice.
Would be much more fitting to Elder Scrolls with our characters having more skill options.

• Battlemage abilities shouldn't be exclusive to that class. Sorcerers should be able to do alteration spells and such too.
• More physical skilline? Same there, it shouldn't be exclusive to some "barbarian".
• Bards? The fighting-music type is not a thing in Elder Scrolls.
• Monks? Would be yet another class like Warden that is weirdly themed to a province. In this case Elsweyr and khajiit claw-dances. Unarmed skillines would be better.
• Witchhunter? What any class with Fighter's Guild abilities?
• etc

The only classes I would be interested is battlemage and monk/unarmed fighter, but between class and skilline I will choose skillines. Skillines are also better with the lacking character slots.

Bard is literally a class in Elder Scrolls.

But it's just a warrior/mage/thief hybrid. None of its abilities have anything to do with music.

That is true, but I didn’t see anyone mention that a bard would use music as an attack. That’s why the comment was so weird to me, and it read like bards never have existed in Elder Scrolls.

Almost every time someone asks for a bard they speak of the DnD type with music attacks. The time they mean an Elder Scroll's bard is very rare and the only thing we don't have for that is some illusion magic skills, which again, could just be a skilline.

exeeter702

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

@exeeter702 @Supreme_Atromancer
I think you guys are arguing the same point.
Barbarian vs Shaman.
It’s like comparing Tangerines to Clementines.

And The Reach is full of inhabitants that would qualify under the definition of 'Barbarian' (either the classical definition or the 'Conan / D&D' definition.

It's a Culture not a Class.

(Shaman would be a class however)

D&D treated Barbarian as a class.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

@exeeter702 @Supreme_Atromancer
I think you guys are arguing the same point.
Barbarian vs Shaman.
It’s like comparing Tangerines to Clementines.

I was arguing against the position that Barbarian can't work as a class because its just a warrior, by explaining how the concept could be a little broader- in a very organic way (totems or spirit magic) with no "mental gymnastics", because ex was arguing the idea of a Barbarian healing is ludicrous.

Though there's definitely overlap between those two concepts, you're right. Why I'm defending the idea of Barbarian in particular is because it was nominated as an option, and I don't think the arguments against it stand up. Also, its a core archetype in TES franchise and fantasy games, its popular request, and currently there's no satisfying way to do that power fantasy unless you subscribe to the notion that you can make anything approaching viability by ignoring your entire class toolkit.

I want to be very clear here when I say that I dont care about what name the class is given. If ZOS were to come out tomorrow and announce Barbarian, that alone would not "prove me wrong" so to speak. The naming convention is irrelevant. I am EXPLICITY talking about those who are asking for a purely melee focused warrior / berserker / front line fighter to encompass an ENTIRE class within ESO, and how such requests are completely incompatible with how the game is structured. If "barbarians" in this time period happen to be shamanistic by default then that is entirely within reason to fufill a class as shamans in any form of the fictional video game /mmorpg veriety have essentially checked all the proverbial boxes since the existence of this genre.

A berserking front line weapons focused warrior as an entire class DOES NOT work in a game like this under the presumption of ZOSs design philosophy remaining the same. Regardless of if the new class is named robo cop, afro samurai, barbarian or shaman.

divnyi

Barbarian

Deter1UK wrote: »

Schools of Magic don't yet exist in the Mage's Guild - there is a book about this to be found in Cyrodil -

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Proposal:_Schools_of_Magic

So any introduction of Alteration etc would have to be based around Shad Astula and would be Lore-stretching at best
not to mention the massive amount of dev work involved - somewhat unlikely unfortunately.

Alteration is DK. Yeah doesn't really look like anything you had in single-player scrolls, but here we are.

Supreme_Atromancer

Battlemage/Spellsword

exeeter702 wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

@exeeter702 @Supreme_Atromancer
I think you guys are arguing the same point.
Barbarian vs Shaman.
It’s like comparing Tangerines to Clementines.

And The Reach is full of inhabitants that would qualify under the definition of 'Barbarian' (either the classical definition or the 'Conan / D&D' definition.

It's a Culture not a Class.

(Shaman would be a class however)

D&D treated Barbarian as a class.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

@exeeter702 @Supreme_Atromancer
I think you guys are arguing the same point.
Barbarian vs Shaman.
It’s like comparing Tangerines to Clementines.

I was arguing against the position that Barbarian can't work as a class because its just a warrior, by explaining how the concept could be a little broader- in a very organic way (totems or spirit magic) with no "mental gymnastics", because ex was arguing the idea of a Barbarian healing is ludicrous.

Though there's definitely overlap between those two concepts, you're right. Why I'm defending the idea of Barbarian in particular is because it was nominated as an option, and I don't think the arguments against it stand up. Also, its a core archetype in TES franchise and fantasy games, its popular request, and currently there's no satisfying way to do that power fantasy unless you subscribe to the notion that you can make anything approaching viability by ignoring your entire class toolkit.

I want to be very clear here when I say that I dont care about what name the class is given. If ZOS were to come out tomorrow and announce Barbarian, that alone would not "prove me wrong" so to speak. The naming convention is irrelevant. I am EXPLICITY talking about those who are asking for a purely melee focused warrior / berserker / front line fighter to encompass an ENTIRE class within ESO, and how such requests are completely incompatible with how the game is structured. If "barbarians" in this time period happen to be shamanistic by default then that is entirely within reason to fufill a class as shamans in any form of the fictional video game /mmorpg veriety have essentially checked all the proverbial boxes since the existence of this genre.

A berserking front line weapons focused warrior as an entire class DOES NOT work in a game like this under the presumption of ZOSs design philosophy remaining the same. Regardless of if the new class is named robo cop, afro samurai, barbarian or shaman.

I've always found it difficult to debate things with people who say stuff like "even if x, you will never prove me wrong" because that often signals someone isn't interested in the debate *per se*, but in being undefeated. There's certainly things that I might not have thought about that would render all I say moot. I take that for granted. If I knew everything, there'd be no point even having discussions, except for the sake of swinging around my gamer knowledge cred, and that would be cringe. Same goes for you. Even though you've presented some good points that should be considered ("class" is a thematic toolkit that needs to be broad enough to encompass a bunch of different roles and ways of doing things), you don't know everything, and maybe there are points on which you are wrong, or things you haven't thought about. For instance:

How exactly would a barbarian fufill the healer role? With or without the resto staff is irrelevant, thematically it simply makes no sense...magicaka based barbarian with a destro/resto staff.. yeah ok...

That's all I've been responding to. Its not proving you wrong to suggest there are ways that actually makes plenty of sense, thematically.

Barbarian is a core TES concept, and having to contort the system that they have now for the sake of making something that is still unsatisfying and wildly underpowered isn't a great answer: In terms of power fantasies, the Barbarian is certainly a very obvious empty niche. The class would be great if it allowed people to readily play something like the archetypal Barbarian- the frontline melee fighter you imagine people mean, as the surface name immediately suggests, while being broad enough to allow for different roles and builds. Preternatural, wild, totemic, shamanistic elements associated with the primitive societies (or their fantasy equivalents) suggest a thematic angle for things like healing that would be entirely cohesive with such a class.

exeeter702

@Supreme_Atromancer my guy.. I'm not talking about being proven wrong in this sense... holy hell..

I said that to clarify that I'm not getting hung up on the terminology used to label the class. Prior to getting dragged into this, when I said barbarian, I was using that word to specifically describe a very specific requested class archetype. Any TES lore junkie can dig deep enough to pull up any number of reasonings for any number of class ideas. The general video game player will typically associate a barbarian with a very specifc fictional archetype, being a spell casting wizard, isnt one of them. If TES barbarians in ESOs timeline are of the shamanistic variety then that is PRECISELY the type of brainstorming approach that people in this types of threads need to have, and is exactly the point I was making. You took the "wElL aCktHuAlLy" approach when seeing the word "barbarian" without even considering that I was already making your point to begin with.

A class designed exclusively around being an aggressive melee focused powerhouse (ie all three skill lines being geared towards bolstering and augmenting this playstyle) does not weild a restoration staff nor does it fall in line with the design philosophy in place in the current iteration of this game and anyone who is asking for such a class either maybe doesnt quite grasp how classes are designed in this game, or they are hoping for zos to fundamentally shift their positions/stance in the core game.

Just to put the nail in this...
You add a class to ESO. Name it whatever is lore appropriate, no one cares.
one skill line would be called "Barbarianism"
the other two could be whatever along the lines of spirit/totem/conjuration/nature, fufilling both the healing and more spell casting elements of the class for this "would be" shaman of the reach.

THIS is what im referring to. In this case, you create the Barbarian (melee focused warrior) in ESO by way of said above class as a fork. This is how ALL classes in ESO are designed, as thematic concepts that allow particular classes that have existed in TES games to by some extent exist in ESO. The classes are at the top of the design tree and many people ask for whole classes to be added to ESO that would otherwise absolutely only be branches on said design tree. These people are not stepping back and thinking broadly enough.

I'm done here. Take your argument to someone who is actually disagreeing with you.

Flangdoodle

Graybeards! I want shouts!

FeedbackOnly

Bard

seldomseenkd

Barbarian

Cheesemancer or nothing!

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

None!

Kesstryl

Battlemage/Spellsword

My very first TES character way back in the 90s was a Spellsword. Nostalgia

fakingfocused

Barbarian

fakingfocused wrote: »

Berseker/Barbarian my #1 chioce. Mele stam needs some love this could help.

I apologize for being the catalyst to and underlying difference of opinion on this thread. My corrected response below:

Berserker/Barbarian "type"(ish) class would be my #1 chioce. Where I could use ONE (thought this was assumed in the original post) of the classes 3 skill trees, to spec the character to accommodate a stamina mele style of character (to fulfill a berserker Barbarian classic fantasy role) All while having 2 other skill trees available for players with other types of playstyles in mind. (This of course just a suggestion, nothing to be taken exactly 100%) because who am I?

Now I know not everyone will be happy but I hope it is acceptable to most and even some of the lurking "opinion police"

But if this by chance (longshot) is an iron clad acceptable response I'm sure it was that toughest critic's idea in the first place. So everyone can be happy.

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

Like I said before, a hybrid of Battlemage, Shaman might be possible.

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Like I said before, a hybrid of Battlemage, Shaman might be possible.

But then how would you fit Artificer in there. Unless it was some kind of ‘War Scholar’ that studies different things.

Larcomar

Honestly, I think we've got enough classes. And they have enough work to do balancing those and making them fun. Tbh magwarden feels a bit weird to me (flowers, ice and animals?) while stamwarden feels pretty generic. Necro's a cartoon halloween theme with an awful lot buff maintenance thrown in. They give us another class, it''ll probably be horrible, but they'll make it wildly overpowered to sell it. Then spend the next two years sorting out the mess that's made of trial groups, pvp etc etc

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

Hmm. How about a new class altogether. Something that scratches the Spellsword itch while being something new.
Like a Witch-Knight for example, would fight like a Spellsword but have shaman totems and witchcraft spells. Could be interesting combination.

spartaxoxo

Tonal Magic is already a magic type in this game, so I don't think a Bard would be out of place.

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tonal Magic is already a magic type in this game, so I don't think a Bard would be out of place.

Bard’s in Elder Scrolls are not what most people would associate with a Bard in other MMO’s. They don’t run around with a flute or harp playing songs constantly.
They are more like spellswords and if they were true to their representation within the lore, people would complain and say things like “This isn’t a bard. Why does he have a big sword but no harp?”.

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tonal Magic is already a magic type in this game, so I don't think a Bard would be out of place.

Here:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bard_(Oblivion)

So as you can see, Bard’s are too similar to Nightblade’s and thus can’t fit. You can practically build a bard with an NB right now.

spartaxoxo

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tonal Magic is already a magic type in this game, so I don't think a Bard would be out of place.

Here:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bard_(Oblivion)

So as you can see, Bard’s are too similar to Nightblade’s and thus can’t fit. You can practically build a bard with an NB right now.

A bard doesn't need to be the same as it was in Oblivion. And a warrior that fought using sound and illusions would not be out of place in this game. There's already a lot of magical things related to sound and already a Bard class in previous games. The building blocks are all there.

MindOfTheSwarm

Witch/Hedgemage

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tonal Magic is already a magic type in this game, so I don't think a Bard would be out of place.

Here:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bard_(Oblivion)

So as you can see, Bard’s are too similar to Nightblade’s and thus can’t fit. You can practically build a bard with an NB right now.

A bard doesn't need to be the same as it was in Oblivion. And a warrior that fought using sound and illusions would not be out of place in this game. There's already a lot of magical things related to sound and already a Bard class in previous games. The building blocks are all there.

The Bard class has been fairly consistent across all Elder Scrolls games. If we had one, then it’s all well and good. But musical, spells? It just is not consistent with the lore. Ultimately anything added, has to be in line with the lore. You can’t take liberties.

TheImperfect

Bard really doesn't excite me. If it was a tonal engineer that used sound to damage or mind control then maybe but music and debuffing etc just seems really naff.