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2h vs Dual wield for mag characters (esp in pvp)

Larcomar
Larcomar
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Ive got a couple of melee mag characters - magdk and magblade. I vastly prefer 2hs visuals over dual wield but note everyone and their dog goes for dual wield. I was trying to look at this on uesp build edit but couldn't for the life of me get it to update. Mainly thinking of pvp here.

Looking at the passives, 2h's heavy weapons passive gives you an extra 284 spell damage on a sword or 3300 penetration with maul, plus 2 handers come with an extra what, 240 base spell damage.

Dual wield on the other hand has twin blade and blunt which gives you exactly the same as the heavy weapons passive (284 spell damage / 3300 penetration total), while dual wield expert which gives you, in addition, 6% of the weapon's offhand dmg. Base weapon dmg though is same as staffs, bow etc.

As far as i can tell, what people seem to do is mix nirn sword and sharpened mace, presumably with nirn sword on the offhand, but that's where the math started getting away from me. I think that your effective spell dmg is calculated purely off you r main hand with dual but Im really not sure. Not least because I can't check it as dont' tend to use.

Does anyone know off hand

- how, say, a sharpened mace + nirn sword compares in effective stats to a nirn maul or sharpened great sword for spell dmg and penetration

- what would it look like if you were going full charged for the combustion passive? I wonder if 2h might actually be better there.

Or failign that, a rough idea of how big the gap between the two is.

Thanks

Larc






Edited by Larcomar on January 16, 2022 1:34PM
  • Mushroomancer
    Mushroomancer
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    Not a DD main here, so take this with a grain of salt, as the info might not be accurate.

    AFAIK the main reason why most players go for DW instead of 2H is because they use daggers, not mace/sword, which (with Twin Blade and Blunt) gives you crit chance for each of them. So you would go double daggers.

    Also concerning traits, you always want the Nirn weapon on the main hand (I think there's a slight increase in damage, from what I can remember off the top of my head), and the off-hand to be Precise.

    Hope that helped, and if anyone, yourself included, wants to corrett me in case I provided incorrect information, you are free to do so.
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  • Larcomar
    Larcomar
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    Sorry shd have said, I was thinking primarily for pvp. Was thinking it wouldn't make a difference but you're right ofc people will run daggers for the crit chance in pve because, well, crit is king.

    Ill try and do the math again assuming nirn on the main hand. And maybe after some more coffee. Will edit title as well :)
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    I ran MagDW on Sorc for years, I haven't looked at it for while because the changes a few years back (staff damage, 5:5:2 setup etc) reduced its effectiveness too far.

    Interesting if it's making a comeback as it's a fun playstyle, I just felt with the changes over the years ZOS had it in for it.

    Unsure on your special answer, I guess it's horses for courses depending on rest of your setup. I used to always run DW swords but that's way back when
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  • fred4
    fred4
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    The gap isn't big.

    DW derives almost all of it's stats from the main hand, with a much smaller contribution from the off hand (Dual Wield Expert passive). A Nirn main hand, Sharpened off hand is optimal, I believe. Daggers for PvE. Maces for PvP as a rule of thumb. Sword main hand is not required. Whether sword is used in main or off hand, the effect is the same. Swords (or daggers) will improve a front-barred heal, so you might use them on that account. Check out the UESP build editor (google), specifically the "Effective Weapon Power", which is a measure created by the guys at UESP to gauge the overall stat-effectiveness of your attacks. I believe DW has a slight edge over 2H by that measure.

    DW heavy attacks are the fastest heavy attacks, thus they play better than 2H heavy attacks. You also get to proc 2 enchants. Although the enchants hit for half value, they can proc 2 status effects, for example Concussed and Diseased, at the same time.

    2H, on the other hand, has some interesting passives of it's own. There is Forceful, hitting additional enemies with light attacks. There is Follow Up, increasing your damage after a heavy attack. There is Battle Rush, increasing your stamina recovery. There is also an interesting ultimate in Onslaught or you could even use Forward Momentum for root / snare immunity and a Vateshran proc.
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  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    Dual Wield Magicka Nightblade is how I started in PvP. One of the reasons I like Dual Wield is because the heavy attacks are quicker.
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  • Larcomar
    Larcomar
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    Thanks. That makes stuff clearer. I was just having a bit of a brain fart and overcomplicating it, wonderng if effective spell dmg was an average of the two, or 2/3 1/3 etc etc Plus I had less booze last night and more coffee this mroning so let's try this again....

    As others have said, you'd run daggers in pve because "crit is king" - and you can't get crit off the 2h passives. But for the rest, I think the answer is as follows. Someone please correct me if Ive got stuff wrong?

    First, assumptions - Naked other than for wep:
    - Nirn'd 2h base damage is 2806 (1000 base + 1806 from the wep)
    - 2h base dam is 2571 (1000 base + 1571 from the wep)
    - Nirn'd 1h / staff dmg is 2535 (1000 base + from 1535 the wep)
    - 1h /staff base dmg is 2335 (1000 base damage + 1335 from the wep)
    - 2h's heavy weapons passive gives you an extra 284 spell damage on a sword or 3300 penetration on a maul
    - Twin blade and blunt which gives you exactly the same as the heavy weapons passive (142 spell damage / 1650 penetration total for each sword / mace) but you can mix and match
    - Dual wield expert gives you, in addition, 6% of the weapon's offhand dmg.
    - Sharpened is 1376 on a 1h, 2752 on a 2h. Nirn is a straight +15% to the weapon's damage
    - Charged is 240% chance to apply status effect on 1h, 480% on 2h

    So, if those are right - do correct if not - I think we get ...

    A) Going full spell dmg
    - a nirn'd 2h greatsword will give you 0 pen and 3090 dmg (1000 base + 1806 from the wep + 284 from heavy weps)
    - a nirn sword + a sharpened sword will give you 1376 pen from the trait + 2899 dmg (1000 base, 1535 from a nirn 1h, 284 from tb&b x2 and 80 from dual wield expert) (Nirning the off hand's only going to give you like 10 more dmg)

    B ) Doing a mix
    - a nirn'd 2h maul will give you 3300 pen from heavy weapons and 2806 spell dmg (1000 base + 1806 from the wep)
    - a sharpened 2h greatsword will give you 2752 pen from the trait and 2855 dmg (1000 base, 1571 from the weapon + 284 from heavy weps)
    - a nirn sword + sharpened mace would give you give you 3026 pen (1650 from tb&b plus 1376 from the trait) and 2757 spell dmg (1000 base, 1535 dmg from a nirn main hand, 142 spell damage from 1 sword, + 80 from dual wield expert's 6% of the weapon's offhand dmg).

    C) Going full pen
    - a sharpened 2h maul will give you 6052 pen (3300 pen from heavy weapons and 2752 from the trait) and 2571 dmg (1000 base plus 2h base of 1571)
    - 2 sharpened maces will give you the same 6052 pen (3300 pen from heavy weapons and 2752 from the trait) but only 2415 dmg (1000 base, 1335 from main wep, 80 from dual wield expert)

    D) As at least one of my toons is a dk, and we're all running charged now to sort out the horrible sustain so for interest
    - a charged 2h sword will give you the 480%, 0 extra pen, and 2855 dmg (1000 base + 1571 wep + 284 from heavy weps)
    - a charged 2h maul will give you the 480%, 3300 pen (from heavy weapons) and 2571 dmg (1000 base + 1571 from the wep)
    - 2 charged 1h maces will give you the 480%, 3300 pen and 2415 dmg (1000 base damage + 1335 from the wep + 80 from duel wield expert)
    - 2 charged 1h swords will give you the 480%, 0 pen and 2699 dmg (1000 base damage + 1335 from the wep, 284 tb&b + 80 offhand)
    - 1 nirn mace + 1 charged mace will give you 240% chance to apply status effect, 3300 pen and 2615 dmg (1000 base, 1535 nirn 1h, 80 from dual wield expert)

    Someone check my assumptions and math...?

    In reality ofc, the meta is 2 maces (a nirn mace + sharpened mace) (for pvp) which will give you 4676 pen (3300 from tb&B and 1376 from the trait) and 2615 dmg (1000 base, 1535 from a nirn wep, and 80 from dual wield expert). Thats obviously the best combo.

    Against that though, I'd say 2h stacks up pretty well. It looks to me like a nirn'd maul trumps a sharpened greatsword, giving you 3300 pen and 2806 spell dmg.

    I wonder though if a sharpened maul is the strongest bet, at least on the numbers, with a whopping 6052 pen (3300 pen from heavy weapons and 2752 from the trait) and a respectable 2571 dmg (1000 base plus 2h base of 1571)

    Ofc as Fred said,
    fred4 wrote: »
    there are other factors -
    DW heavy attacks are the fastest heavy attacks, thus they play better than 2H heavy attacks. You also get to proc 2 enchants. Although the enchants hit for half value, they can proc 2 status effects, for example Concussed and Diseased, at the same time.

    2H, on the other hand, has some interesting passives of it's own. There is Forceful, hitting additional enemies with light attacks. There is Follow Up, increasing your damage after a heavy attack. There is Battle Rush, increasing your stamina recovery. There is also an interesting ultimate in Onslaught or you could even use Forward Momentum for root / snare immunity and a Vateshran proc.

    Id guess the biggie there is getting two status effects off dual. That's pretty strong but hard to quantify. But more of the 2h passives do apply, plus some of the 2h skills are useful. Id actually add stampede to the list - at least on classes that don't have a gap closer, it can come in handy.

    It in short, pretty close :) But it was this or doing the housework.

    Anwyay, Im sure I missed something, or fluffed the math somewhere. Do yell if so

    cheers

    Larc
    Edited by Larcomar on January 17, 2022 12:10PM
  • WabanakiWarrior
    WabanakiWarrior
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    I like how you wrote all that out. I have a notebook that looks very similar. And I came to the same conclusion. I usually alternate between sharpened maces and a sharpened maul depending on the content. I find in 1v1 situations, dual wield is the way to go, but for something like BGs, a maul is hard to beat. If you're constantly killing, the Battle Rush passive will constantly be up and the Follow-Up passive synergizes great with group ult dumps. Really the choice depends on whether you need sustained dps or one big hit.
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  • ExistingRug61
    ExistingRug61
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    Note on Dual Wield Damage - you are missing a bit
    (unless something has changed since I last checked this in game)

    Even before the Dual Wield Expert Passive there is contribution from the offhand to damage.
    I can't remember off the top of my head but I believe its approx ~17.75%.

    This basically equalises damage between 2H and Dual wield, ie:
    2H with no trait: 1571
    Dual wield with no trait, no dual wield expert: 1335 + 0.1775*1335 = 1572
    (excluding Heavy Weap/Twin Blade and Blunt)

    And then Dual Wield Expert increases this by 3%/6% to 20.75%/23.75%, which actually puts Dual wield ahead on base damage.
    ie: Dual wield with no trait, 2/2 dual wield expert: 1335 + 0.2375*1335 = 1652

    And even if you do nirn/sharpened dual wield vs nirn 2H, dual wield is still ahead on base damage AND it has the extra pen
    Nirn 2H: 1571*(1+0.15) = 1806
    Nirn/Sharpened DW with Dual wield expert: 1335*(1+0.15) + 0.2375*1335 = 1852
    (again excluding Heavy Weap/Twin Blade and Blunt)
    Edited by ExistingRug61 on January 18, 2022 1:24AM
  • Larcomar
    Larcomar
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    That's what I was looking for. I couldn't seem to find *any * info on off hand wpn dmg when I looked. Unless I'm missing some obvious sites, this stuff just doesn't seem to be set out anywhere.

    But it does explains the puzzle - why dual wield is so est as meta when (on the numbers I was getting) 2h looks as good - if not maybe better.

    I couldn't test this properly with dw - I don't have any. But then remembered my tank. Duh... Lot's of 1h weapon there :) And yes (no passives):
    - naked: 1000
    - 1 1h weapon rated at 1335 - spell dmg 2335
    - 2 1h weapons - spell dmg goes up to 2571, same as a 2h.
    - nirn main hand, powered off hand - 2771 (less than 2h because you've not got the extra 15% on off hand)
    - nirn main hand and nirn off hand - 2806 - as per nirned 2h.
    I.e. the calc is 100% of main hand and yes, 0.1775% of off hand. May be I missed where this was written down :)

    But, as you say, once you factor dual wield expert in, you're getting another 6% of the off hand - I think 80 spell damage normal trait, 90 if nirned so yeah, a nirn/Sharpened DW with Dual wield expert gets you to 1852. Which trumps a nirn'd 2h base damage of 1806. And ofc gives you a chunk of pen.

    And that changes the equation pretty significantly.

    If 2 maces (nirn mainhand + sharpened off hand) gives
    - 4676 pen (3300 from tb&B and 1376 from trait)
    - 2852 dmg (1000 base, 1535 from a nirn mainhand wep, 236 from the offhand, and 80 from dual wield expert).

    ... it trumps 2h pretty significantly, at least on stats. Assuming the 2h numbers are right, a nirn'd maul gives only 3300 pen and 2806 spell dmg. So it's a straight loss of 1676 pen and 46 spell dmg. No thanks.

    A sharpened maul does a bit better - it gives 6052 pen and a respectable 2571 dmg so you gain 1376 pen (about 2% damage vs a player) but lose a pretty chunky 281 spell damage.

    Ofc as Fred said, there's the passives to consider - where 2h has the edge - and some of the 2h skills are handy on a mag toon. Even so.

    Next time, ill just gold out some weps so I can test it properly! Or maybe just take it on fait that the content creators know what they're talking about :) But at least I know the ans now. It was annoying me. ...

    Cheers

    Larc
    Edited by Larcomar on January 18, 2022 11:24AM
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