What in the heck happened to PvP in this game?

AuraNebula

barney2525 wrote: »

Why does the original complaint seem to be ' No Fair! I can't just run around one-shot-ing people.' so to speak.

Aren't other players allowed to defend themselves? Seems to me, there's more challenge to PvP if you Can't just Gank others and have to work for kills.

Ganking is working for kills. Are they just standing around and people are magically dying? No, they have to put work into their build. Ganking is a niche build, and honestly you are not going to have a hard time killing a ganker.

No one should be invincible or have a ton of resistances, heal like crazy, and be able to burst down people. It is a problem. Why are people so terrified of dying?

YoureWrongImRight

AuraNebula wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Why does the original complaint seem to be ' No Fair! I can't just run around one-shot-ing people.' so to speak.

Aren't other players allowed to defend themselves? Seems to me, there's more challenge to PvP if you Can't just Gank others and have to work for kills.

Ganking is working for kills. Are they just standing around and people are magically dying? No, they have to put work into their build. Ganking is a niche build, and honestly you are not going to have a hard time killing a ganker.

No one should be invincible or have a ton of resistances, heal like crazy, and be able to burst down people. It is a problem. Why are people so terrified of dying?

Here's the basic mentality.

I should not have to make concessions with my build.

If someone jumps me I need to be able to resist the incoming damage and survive, then be able to smash my one button to get back up to full health so I have an opportunity to defend myself properly once they have given away their advantage by exposing themselves to me.

I also need to have burst damage power to be able to smack them down in 1 second or they will just heal themselves/roll dodge away and I won't get any kills.

I need to be able to do everything myself if I choose.

I need to be able to engage multiple players alone if that's how I want to play, I should not have to rely on playing with other people to actually be able to fight multiple other people.

This game is about choosing how I like to play, not mechanics that are logical and meaningful, and I choose to have it all. Everyone can play how they like inside a cramped box of hybrid damage dealers, or they may go pound sand, which will be a convenient alternative because they will be spending a lot of time taking dirt naps.

AuraNebula

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Why does the original complaint seem to be ' No Fair! I can't just run around one-shot-ing people.' so to speak.

Aren't other players allowed to defend themselves? Seems to me, there's more challenge to PvP if you Can't just Gank others and have to work for kills.

Ganking is working for kills. Are they just standing around and people are magically dying? No, they have to put work into their build. Ganking is a niche build, and honestly you are not going to have a hard time killing a ganker.

No one should be invincible or have a ton of resistances, heal like crazy, and be able to burst down people. It is a problem. Why are people so terrified of dying?

Here's the basic mentality.

I should not have to make concessions with my build.

If someone jumps me I need to be able to resist the incoming damage and survive, then be able to smash my one button to get back up to full health so I have an opportunity to defend myself properly once they have given away their advantage by exposing themselves to me.

I also need to have burst damage power to be able to smack them down in 1 second or they will just heal themselves/roll dodge away and I won't get any kills.

I need to be able to do everything myself if I choose.

I need to be able to engage multiple players alone if that's how I want to play, I should not have to rely on playing with other people to actually be able to fight multiple other people.

This game is about choosing how I like to play, not mechanics that are logical and meaningful, and I choose to have it all. Everyone can play how they like inside a cramped box of hybrid damage dealers, or they may go pound sand, which will be a convenient alternative because they will be spending a lot of time taking dirt naps.

Summed it up perfectly.

Alchimiste1

Despite what many people think there really isn't any broken "sets" that allow you to just tank open field and have the damage to burst them. There is iron blood, but that thing sucks when getting zerged by 1 too many because of the movement speed. There are however certain classes like mplar and magdk that are quite a bit overturned with bubble and corrosive. The damage this patch feels right to me, we had real tank metas in the past with 7th and fury and this feels nowhere need that amount of tankyness.

In regard to the players that you see running around fighting outnumbered if I'm being honest at some point you have to just consider the possibility that they are good and have a lot of experience doing it. 1vX is much harder now that it has been in the past, if you can do it now chances are you know what you are doing, it's not just the build.

Kaysha

Perhaps they should revert the change from patch 6.3 which granted 1000 weapon and spell dmg for free and replace it with 200 penetration per level. Would probably produce problems for HM vet raids though.

Dem_kitkats1

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

In regard to the players that you see running around fighting outnumbered if I'm being honest at some point you have to just consider the possibility that they are good and have a lot of experience doing it. 1vX is much harder now that it has been in the past, if you can do it now chances are you know what you are doing, it's not just the build.

1vX may be much harder now, but it's still viable for players to 2vX or 3vX groups of 10+ without consequence. Gameplay just becomes a session of out tanking everyone and LoS abusing due to the ability to access so much self healing and cross healing with no concession whatsoever to your damage output. So then you can just turn around and take down weaker/inexperienced players, or players that didnt have the resources left to get their combo and healing off in 2 or 3 hits, as OP has observed. Coming from other MMO PvP games the fact that it's possibly for players to fight being severely outnumbered and actually triumph is baffling, as logically, it doesn't make sense.

schmistertyler

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Why does the original complaint seem to be ' No Fair! I can't just run around one-shot-ing people.' so to speak.

Aren't other players allowed to defend themselves? Seems to me, there's more challenge to PvP if you Can't just Gank others and have to work for kills.

Ganking is working for kills. Are they just standing around and people are magically dying? No, they have to put work into their build. Ganking is a niche build, and honestly you are not going to have a hard time killing a ganker.

No one should be invincible or have a ton of resistances, heal like crazy, and be able to burst down people. It is a problem. Why are people so terrified of dying?

Here's the basic mentality.

I should not have to make concessions with my build.

If someone jumps me I need to be able to resist the incoming damage and survive, then be able to smash my one button to get back up to full health so I have an opportunity to defend myself properly once they have given away their advantage by exposing themselves to me.

I also need to have burst damage power to be able to smack them down in 1 second or they will just heal themselves/roll dodge away and I won't get any kills.

I need to be able to do everything myself if I choose.

I need to be able to engage multiple players alone if that's how I want to play, I should not have to rely on playing with other people to actually be able to fight multiple other people.

This game is about choosing how I like to play, not mechanics that are logical and meaningful, and I choose to have it all. Everyone can play how they like inside a cramped box of hybrid damage dealers, or they may go pound sand, which will be a convenient alternative because they will be spending a lot of time taking dirt naps.

Yup summed up perfectly. This is why i only play my bubble templar and DoT DK in PvP. I can run around and tank 5 people apply my combos to random people until i find a squish lord. There is no reason to play anything else the other builds are just not competitive at all. If 3 nightblades ambush me from the trees with snipe shots i should freaking die.. that's how balance works. Not "ohh they shot me lemme instantly heal apply a bubble and go 1 tap them since they went full damage which means nothing and now they have no defense". Everyone keeps commenting ohh you just want to 1 shot gank everyone! Uhhhh no not at all... everyone should have a fair chance. What isn't a fair chance is 1 guy tanking 10 people and still being able to deal crazy damage. I can get my weapon power over 6k on my DK with crazy defense and heals.... how in the heck is that balanced lol.... that's not a fair chance that's overpowered. Now if said templar or DK did take a lot of damage from 3 guys ganking as he should because its 3v1 but has the skill to dodge roll attacks kill 1 guy out of the gates with ultimate up and good positioning then use LoS to heal and reapply pressure score a second kill from a nicely placed stun and dodge roll attacks from the 3rd player inevitably resetting once again and widdling the last guy down. Okay fair enough well played... what's happening now isn't well played its lemme just block and heal to full over and over brainlessly and 2 shot any glass cannons that get close to me. This is just poor gameplay that pushes everyone to play the same builds with no diversity because they are just flat out better than the reset. There will never be a justifiable reason 1 guy can tank 5+ other players and kill all of them because they are not specced similarly. Even if they are new players the sheer DPS applied from 5 players in an open field should always result in a death. This seems so obvious i don't know how anyone can say and defend the mentality of "I dont like getting ganked so we should be able to deal huge damage and tank 10 people if they dont have the build we have screw em!"...

YoureWrongImRight

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Despite what many people think there really isn't any broken "sets" that allow you to just tank open field and have the damage to burst them. There is iron blood, but that thing sucks when getting zerged by 1 too many because of the movement speed. There are however certain classes like mplar and magdk that are quite a bit overturned with bubble and corrosive. The damage this patch feels right to me, we had real tank metas in the past with 7th and fury and this feels nowhere need that amount of tankyness.

In regard to the players that you see running around fighting outnumbered if I'm being honest at some point you have to just consider the possibility that they are good and have a lot of experience doing it. 1vX is much harder now that it has been in the past, if you can do it now chances are you know what you are doing, it's not just the build.

Here are the main points that are highlighted by 1v10:

Self healing, mitigation (include mitigation via LoS breaking) and sustain are way too high with basically no available counters. Even if you are god tier fighting against a bunch of zero cp guys that just got in there for the first time with trash gear, 10 people hitting you should kill you, that's all there is to it. Nobody is disputing that this is only happening when they're fighting a bunch of low CP noobs, but there are reasons for this also.

1. More experienced people just don't bother, I literally just walk away rather than get frustrated trying to hit some guy for 5 minutes running around in a tower and dancing around trees. If they knew better than to engage in these dumb confined spaces and just walked away they would be better off. Eventually the guy will leave the tower since he's not getting any fights and then maybe they could kill him, but they don't know any better.
2. There are no active counters where you could actually use skills in your tool kit to counter this garbage. When you are focused on single target damage burst (most people as you don't really have other options), what can you do when a guy just starts dodge rolling 3-4-5 times making him immune and just hitting a heal in between. Literally nothing. Can I debuff this guy maybe? maybe limit his ridiculous self healing a little bit, I could try but major/minor defile are so useless what would be the point. How does limiting their healing by 16/8% do anything when they're probably over healing themselves 50%, it's not even making a dent. I can stun them, okay they just instantly break free and go back to dodge rolling/healing. Getting low on stam, no problem, just dance around this tree stump for 10 seconds and let it regen, land a heavy attack or 2 and you're good to go. Can I try and reduce his sustain so he can't just keep getting resources back so quickly? not really because I would have to pre slot the poisons I would need since I can't change them during combat, it's also doubtful that the 10% extra cost would really hurt them all that much.
3. Sweats don't fight other sweats, there are so few people left in the game that another guy on your alliance (probably the only guy there that could have a real impact on taking this guy down) would just be standing back watching the noob army chase this one guy around in a tower, they are probably in Discord laughing about it together. Having one giant server where you have all 3 alliances that you can just swap between leaves you with zero sense of allegiance and pride for the side you're fighting for.

Some of these problems can be fixed by just giving some love to some debuff skills, others are much harder to solve.

How do you fix this LoS garbage that everyone abuses, in a game with essentially no interrupts except on the few channeled abilities, how do you not give a distinct advantage to ranged classes if you remove a portion of the LoS breaking terrain. Honestly couldn't answer that question for this game.

Definitely remove block casting though, the whole concept that I can block and cast at the same time is goofy.

schmistertyler

Even if you are god tier fighting against a bunch of zero cp guys that just got in there for the first time with trash gear, 10 people hitting you should kill you, that's all there is to it.

CORRECT.

In DAoC there is a few classes that can 1vX one being a warden who is a highly defensive character with good heals and sustain. His weakness? Deals very little damage. 1vX is accomplished when players decide to stay and fight against this player for too long. In this game that weakness doesn't exist it's a have your cake pie and eat it too scenario. So i guess we'll all just run the same builds and participate in PvP that lacks any diversity...

most games take the rock<paper<scissors<rock approach. Currently, this game takes the rock beats all approach.

YoureWrongImRight

schmistertyler wrote: »

Even if you are god tier fighting against a bunch of zero cp guys that just got in there for the first time with trash gear, 10 people hitting you should kill you, that's all there is to it.

CORRECT.

In DAoC there is a few classes that can 1vX one being a warden who is a highly defensive character with good heals and sustain. His weakness? Deals very little damage. 1vX is accomplished when players decide to stay and fight against this player for too long. In this game that weakness doesn't exist it's a have your cake pie and eat it too scenario. So i guess we'll all just run the same builds and participate in PvP that lacks any diversity...

most games take the rock<paper<scissors<rock approach. Currently, this game takes the rock beats all approach.

Yup, I played DAoC for 7 years and do not understand the PvP mentality people in this game seem to have. Everyone just wants to solo everything. Mash all the classes and roles together so badly over time that there's literally no divide between dps/healer/tank, you can almost be all 3 simultaneously.

Depending on what character I rolled out on there were simply other classes that I might just avoid entirely, that is not a good fight for me to take unless they are significantly lower RR than me. That is by nature of game design they have an advantage over me by the type of weapon they wield, the armor type they have, the damage they deal and so on. And by extension a guy in my realm might roll up who has a distinct advantage over him and we go on and on.

There are no counters to cheese playstyles like disease and nearsight (maybe a good idea to help counter ranged classes if they removed a lot of the LoS breaking terrain?). CC is basically a joke as you can just break free constantly and run around max speed 24/7 with race against time and nobody can slow you down.

There are no classes that really like to play off of each other where one guy brings the debuffs and another brings the damage and another has to stun all at the same time.

The number of abilities you are able to slot at once is a huge downside that turns everything into a mess blob, you slot one skill you get 2-3 buffs. This should be divided into at least 2-3 skills, you simply should not be able to have everything without supports to provide these extra buffs etc.

Dem_kitkats1

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

[*] Sweats don't fight other sweats, there are so few people left in the game that another guy on your alliance (probably the only guy there that could have a real impact on taking this guy down) would just be standing back watching the noob army chase this one guy around in a tower, they are probably in Discord laughing about it together. Having one giant server where you have all 3 alliances that you can just swap between leaves you with zero sense of allegiance and pride for the side you're fighting for.
[/list]

^ THIS lolol. Let's not pretend that elitism doesn't exist as some claim. I've seen this behavior on streams, where creators and their friends cry "don't hit him, he's friendly!" And then completely ignore eachother and said friendly watches members of his alliance die without helping. In BGs I've played against players who, despite being on separate teams, don't attack eachother and pair up and target weaker players instead. Or teammates straight up refuse to play against their friends and guildies and whine about being on a "noob" team.

schmistertyler

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

[*] Sweats don't fight other sweats, there are so few people left in the game that another guy on your alliance (probably the only guy there that could have a real impact on taking this guy down) would just be standing back watching the noob army chase this one guy around in a tower, they are probably in Discord laughing about it together. Having one giant server where you have all 3 alliances that you can just swap between leaves you with zero sense of allegiance and pride for the side you're fighting for.
[/list]

^ THIS lolol. Let's not pretend that elitism doesn't exist as some claim. I've seen this behavior on streams, where creators and their friends cry "don't hit him, he's friendly!" And then completely ignore eachother and said friendly watches members of his alliance die without helping. In BGs I've played against players who, despite being on separate teams, don't attack eachother and pair up and target weaker players instead. Or teammates straight up refuse to play against their friends and guildies and whine about being on a "noob" team.

yea this happens in a lot of games unfortunately at least it's not too game-breaking and you can fight someone else

Dem_kitkats1

schmistertyler wrote: »

yea this happens in a lot of games unfortunately at least it's not too game-breaking and you can fight someone else

It's also very satisfying when when you manage to take out couple of them too 😛

Soris

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

So to sum it up, if you're used to a real PvP MMO like DAoC where you can't just plow into 10 people and expect to survive more than 3 seconds, where you actually have to work collectively with a team to make things happen and have classes play off each other.... run.

If that's the case, then it is a 20 year old gameplay, and it is no fun. It wasn't fun back in the day too. You are just asking for a numbers game, whose group is bigger in size wins the game. Thats bad for any PvP game.

You can still do those "tactical" 10vs10 in ESO. But also you can do 1vX, 2vX too, which is in my opinion more fun and more of a challenge. Being able to take on a group of enemy players and win the fight is not a child's game as you are thinking. It is an achievement and hella fun. Try some!

Alchimiste1

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

In regard to the players that you see running around fighting outnumbered if I'm being honest at some point you have to just consider the possibility that they are good and have a lot of experience doing it. 1vX is much harder now that it has been in the past, if you can do it now chances are you know what you are doing, it's not just the build.

1vX may be much harder now, but it's still viable for players to 2vX or 3vX groups of 10+ without consequence. Gameplay just becomes a session of out tanking everyone and LoS abusing due to the ability to access so much self-healing and cross healing with no concession whatsoever to your damage output. So, then you can just turn around and take down weaker/inexperienced players, or players that didn't have the resources left to get their combo and healing off in 2 or 3 hits, as OP has observed. Coming from other MMO PvP games the fact that it's possibly for players to fight being severely outnumbered and actually triumph is baffling, as logically, it doesn't make sense.

I don't understand how players who are outnumbering someone, or a small group even get low on resources in the first place. Why is knowing your terrain considered LOS abuse? This is important in many games even fps ones. The fact that is possible to improve and become skilled enough to pull off these outnumbered fights is what initially attracted so many people to this game (pvp).

I play in a small man usually, sometimes solo. Trust me my resources are almost always below 50, sometimes permanently near 20%. If people die it's because they made a mistake.

This is a recent clip from a fight with some friends. None of us have group sets, my own resistance is very low, and I can easily get 1 shot if I make a mistake.

youtube.com/watch?v=P9T31e-5HPo

Abyssmol

schmistertyler wrote: »

Me and 5 friends recently came to ESO been playing for about 1-2 months now. Pretty geared-up mythics, sets, monster helms ETC. We all came back with the intentions of PvP because we play a lot of Dark Age of Camelot but this just feels awful. Why in the heck is everyone so tanky? This seems wildley unbalanced I used to have fun ganking in this game with my friends but now everyone and their brother is a ridiculous meat shield. You got guys running around in cyrodill who have 10 people attacking them consistently and cant even get below 70% health are you kidding me???? But wait there is more, the moment they turn around and find someone who isn't spec'd into a meat shield they 2 shot their poor souls while continuing to tank 9 people hahaha? Isn't the whole idea behind balancing that if you spec as a tank you can't deal insane burst damage to kill people. LOLOL what in the actual heck has happened to PvP in this game? I feel bad for any new players who want to get into PvP if they don't have a good circle of friends to gear them up and power level CP it would take months to even get close to the possibility of being competitive they may as well just not even play this game. Now I just run around in Pariah as a stage 3 Vamp in BG's and stalemate everyone else who runs a similar tanky set. Everyone just finds the squishy new player who is attempting to have a glass cannon build and repeatedly dunks them over and over because they are the only person who can die. This must be so fun for the new players.... I did a test on my old Stam Blade i went full divines with huge crit + pen with a perfected masters bow. Sat in the back and spammed snipe shots as a complete glass cannon. It didn't end well I couldn't even deal enough damage to kill someone before they ran behind cover. That just doesn't seem right.... It's either tank up or don't play it seems. What a pathetic gameplay design. Is this going to change anytime soon or is this what ZeniMax thinks fun is? I really wanted to play this game with my friends but if PvP is just find weak targets and tank the rest I don't think we'll be sticking around.

I tell you what happened; NB happened! When you have so many NB in this game hitting so hard and hitting out of stealth in groups, you either get tanky or quit the game.

YoureWrongImRight

Soris wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

So to sum it up, if you're used to a real PvP MMO like DAoC where you can't just plow into 10 people and expect to survive more than 3 seconds, where you actually have to work collectively with a team to make things happen and have classes play off each other.... run.

If that's the case, then it is a 20 year old gameplay, and it is no fun. It wasn't fun back in the day too. You are just asking for a numbers game, whose group is bigger in size wins the game. Thats bad for any PvP game.

You can still do those "tactical" 10vs10 in ESO. But also you can do 1vX, 2vX too, which is in my opinion more fun and more of a challenge. Being able to take on a group of enemy players and win the fight is not a child's game as you are thinking. It is an achievement and hella fun. Try some!

LOL you have obviously not played if you think it was just a numbers game. Zerg busting was very much alive, but it took time, we used crowd control, extended groups out, push back on them and went back and forth. That enabled a group of 8 to take on 50-100 unorganized players over a long period of time. Could you just plow straight into them? No, because that doesn't make sense.

We had access to much better crowd control tools that enabled a smaller number of players to take on a larger number using tactics (not just dancing around in a tower breaking LoS constantly, you actually had to apply debuffs and CC to people and remove them from your team mates).

There is nothing challenging and skillful about holding your block button and smashing your heal over and over making you unkillable and then dancing around a tree. And yes, this does reduce it to basically a child's game were the most important factor is latency and gear. It is not cerebral at all where your opponent takes an action and you have a varied tool kit to respond with a counter action, if you are attacked you can... oh that's right, roll, heal, dance. Rinse repeat. Do the same 4-5 button damage combo... rinse repeat.

I'm not entirely sure why it is assumed that anyone who thinks the current way PvP is being done in ESO has a multitude of issues is assumed to be unsuccessful at it. I don't have issues because I'm quite the adept pole dancer.

It's pretty obvious based on the number of threads you see on the forums and the complaints coming from content creators on Youtube etc. that PvP in ESO has a TON of issues. Anyone who would deny that is [snip]. It has the ability with some pretty simple changes to be far better than it is today. Can it be the best? No, it is not a PvP centric game, it's not marketed that way and it doesn't have any desire to be that way, that is obvious based on the content they release and the changes they make.

[edited for rude/insulting comment]

Alchimiste1

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

So to sum it up, if you're used to a real PvP MMO like DAoC where you can't just plow into 10 people and expect to survive more than 3 seconds, where you actually have to work collectively with a team to make things happen and have classes play off each other.... run.

If that's the case, then it is a 20 year old gameplay, and it is no fun. It wasn't fun back in the day too. You are just asking for a numbers game, whose group is bigger in size wins the game. Thats bad for any PvP game.

You can still do those "tactical" 10vs10 in ESO. But also you can do 1vX, 2vX too, which is in my opinion more fun and more of a challenge. Being able to take on a group of enemy players and win the fight is not a child's game as you are thinking. It is an achievement and hella fun. Try some!

LOL you have obviously not played if you think it was just a numbers game. Zerg busting was very much alive, but it took time, we used crowd control, extended groups out, push back on them and went back and forth. That enabled a group of 8 to take on 50-100 unorganized players over a long period of time. Could you just plow straight into them? No, because that doesn't make sense.

We had access to much better crowd control tools that enabled a smaller number of players to take on a larger number using tactics (not just dancing around in a tower breaking LoS constantly, you actually had to apply debuffs and CC to people and remove them from your team mates).

There is nothing challenging and skillful about holding your block button and smashing your heal over and over making you unkillable and then dancing around a tree. And yes, this does reduce it to basically a child's game were the most important factor is latency and gear. It is not cerebral at all where your opponent takes an action and you have a varied tool kit to respond with a counter action, if you are attacked you can... oh that's right, roll, heal, dance. Rinse repeat. Do the same 4-5 button damage combo... rinse repeat.

I'm not entirely sure why it is assumed that anyone who thinks the current way PvP is being done in ESO has a multitude of issues is assumed to be unsuccessful at it. I don't have issues because I'm quite the adept pole dancer.

It's pretty obvious based on the number of threads you see on the forums and the complaints coming from content creators on Youtube etc. that PvP in ESO has a TON of issues. Anyone who would deny that is [snip]. It has the ability with some pretty simple changes to be far better than it is today. Can it be the best? No, it is not a PvP centric game, it's not marketed that way and it doesn't have any desire to be that way, that is obvious based on the content they release and the changes they make.

I think its pretty obvious that you don't understand how 1vX or outnumbered gameplay works in this game. You are oversimplifying it and quite frankly what you are saying isn't true. You don't just "blow through straight into them".

[edited to remove quote]

YoureWrongImRight

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

In regard to the players that you see running around fighting outnumbered if I'm being honest at some point you have to just consider the possibility that they are good and have a lot of experience doing it. 1vX is much harder now that it has been in the past, if you can do it now chances are you know what you are doing, it's not just the build.

1vX may be much harder now, but it's still viable for players to 2vX or 3vX groups of 10+ without consequence. Gameplay just becomes a session of out tanking everyone and LoS abusing due to the ability to access so much self-healing and cross healing with no concession whatsoever to your damage output. So, then you can just turn around and take down weaker/inexperienced players, or players that didn't have the resources left to get their combo and healing off in 2 or 3 hits, as OP has observed. Coming from other MMO PvP games the fact that it's possibly for players to fight being severely outnumbered and actually triumph is baffling, as logically, it doesn't make sense.

I don't understand how players who are outnumbering someone, or a small group even get low on resources in the first place. Why is knowing your terrain considered LOS abuse? This is important in many games even fps ones. The fact that is possible to improve and become skilled enough to pull off these outnumbered fights is what initially attracted so many people to this game (pvp).

I play in a small man usually, sometimes solo. Trust me my resources are almost always below 50, sometimes permanently near 20%. If people die it's because they made a mistake.

This is a recent clip from a fight with some friends. None of us have group sets, my own resistance is very low, and I can easily get 1 shot if I make a mistake.

youtube.com/watch?v=P9T31e-5HPo

lol this video highlights all the issues with PvP currently, self healing so high that you can just roll dodge away, keep breaking LoS, heal yourself back up. They have one counter which is stun, break free instantly, roll roll heal heal, keep running away, go back into a tower where you can break LoS constantly again. They are not even healing themselves most of the time.

The main "skill" in ESO is WASD. #1 counter to anything people throw at you.

Alchimiste1

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

In regard to the players that you see running around fighting outnumbered if I'm being honest at some point you have to just consider the possibility that they are good and have a lot of experience doing it. 1vX is much harder now that it has been in the past, if you can do it now chances are you know what you are doing, it's not just the build.

1vX may be much harder now, but it's still viable for players to 2vX or 3vX groups of 10+ without consequence. Gameplay just becomes a session of out tanking everyone and LoS abusing due to the ability to access so much self-healing and cross healing with no concession whatsoever to your damage output. So, then you can just turn around and take down weaker/inexperienced players, or players that didn't have the resources left to get their combo and healing off in 2 or 3 hits, as OP has observed. Coming from other MMO PvP games the fact that it's possibly for players to fight being severely outnumbered and actually triumph is baffling, as logically, it doesn't make sense.

I don't understand how players who are outnumbering someone, or a small group even get low on resources in the first place. Why is knowing your terrain considered LOS abuse? This is important in many games even fps ones. The fact that is possible to improve and become skilled enough to pull off these outnumbered fights is what initially attracted so many people to this game (pvp).

I play in a small man usually, sometimes solo. Trust me my resources are almost always below 50, sometimes permanently near 20%. If people die it's because they made a mistake.

This is a recent clip from a fight with some friends. None of us have group sets, my own resistance is very low, and I can easily get 1 shot if I make a mistake.

youtube.com/watch?v=P9T31e-5HPo

lol this video highlights all the issues with PvP currently, self healing so high that you can just roll dodge away, keep breaking LoS, heal yourself back up. They have one counter which is stun, break free instantly, roll roll heal heal, keep running away, go back into a tower where you can break LoS constantly again. They are not even healing themselves most of the time.

The main "skill" in ESO is WASD. #1 counter to anything people throw at you.

you try it then

YoureWrongImRight

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

In regard to the players that you see running around fighting outnumbered if I'm being honest at some point you have to just consider the possibility that they are good and have a lot of experience doing it. 1vX is much harder now that it has been in the past, if you can do it now chances are you know what you are doing, it's not just the build.

1vX may be much harder now, but it's still viable for players to 2vX or 3vX groups of 10+ without consequence. Gameplay just becomes a session of out tanking everyone and LoS abusing due to the ability to access so much self-healing and cross healing with no concession whatsoever to your damage output. So, then you can just turn around and take down weaker/inexperienced players, or players that didn't have the resources left to get their combo and healing off in 2 or 3 hits, as OP has observed. Coming from other MMO PvP games the fact that it's possibly for players to fight being severely outnumbered and actually triumph is baffling, as logically, it doesn't make sense.

I don't understand how players who are outnumbering someone, or a small group even get low on resources in the first place. Why is knowing your terrain considered LOS abuse? This is important in many games even fps ones. The fact that is possible to improve and become skilled enough to pull off these outnumbered fights is what initially attracted so many people to this game (pvp).

I play in a small man usually, sometimes solo. Trust me my resources are almost always below 50, sometimes permanently near 20%. If people die it's because they made a mistake.

This is a recent clip from a fight with some friends. None of us have group sets, my own resistance is very low, and I can easily get 1 shot if I make a mistake.

youtube.com/watch?v=P9T31e-5HPo

lol this video highlights all the issues with PvP currently, self healing so high that you can just roll dodge away, keep breaking LoS, heal yourself back up. They have one counter which is stun, break free instantly, roll roll heal heal, keep running away, go back into a tower where you can break LoS constantly again. They are not even healing themselves most of the time.

The main "skill" in ESO is WASD. #1 counter to anything people throw at you.

you try it then

I am happy to play against anyone, I am in BG's fairly often and would be happy to see you there. I'm sure we could have a great dance off.

Step Up Revolution: Battlegrounds

It's also pretty ridiculous to compare MMO's to FPS as they are in no way the same:

1. Your gear is not equivalent with your opponent. Your weapon hits the same in FPS regardless of who is wielding it, the stats are always equivalent and you are on an even playing field. If you win the engagement you can truly say you are better as you do not have a stats advantage.
2. They use LoS breaks because it is literally your only form of defense, it is not combined with damage mitigation abilities and healing that can be used while you are being damaged.

Alchimiste1

@YoureWrongImRight you're changing the topic. Go put on one of these op tank builds and try 1vX 2vX 3vX or whatever in cyrodiil


also I said LOS was important in many games even FPS ones not only FPS games

malistorr

I played on Xbox the other night (no-CP, no-Proc) and there is 1 EP player that looks like a Skeleton and does this. (Kiting/tanking/baiting endlessly) He/she goes in keeps and goes to the corner or the area with the box stack and kites. They have unlimited sustain and healing and can still deal decent damage. I think their MO is to out sustain everyone and then kill people 1 at a time after they run out of resources and can't heal themselves any longer. I would say they are very skilled and experienced but their play style is incredibly annoying and IMO shouldn't be possible in this game.

1 complaint I have of ESO PVP these days is that some classes have much better healing skills than others. I have played Mag Sorc and Stamblade and neither can heal half as quickly as this player could. Also, players IMO should not be able to live forever even while being attacked by 3-4 other players over several minutes. I have seen this player before and know what they do. So I watched what I assumed were noobs continue to try and kill this player for about 10-minutes. I don't know if they eventually did because I got bored and left. Heals and health sustain are already nerfed in no-CP PVP at least which is the only one I play. However IMO something needs to be changed because a player should not be able to have so much sustain and heals that they can live indefinitely when fighting 4-5 other players alone. Maybe those other players just had horrible builds and were awful players, I honestly don't know. But even when I joined in for a short time and attacked the other player with 3 skills over a very short time I could barely even notice their health going down at all. So either there is some way to cheat in EVO PVP on Xbox and they are doing it, or heals are incredibly overpowered on at least 1 or more classes.

I honestly don't know how they have so much damage mitigation, unlimited sustain, and heals that are so high that 4-players attacking with all they have don't lower the health below about 70-80% at any point in time. I've spent hours and hours analyzing sets and possible builds and can't figure out what sets they could be using, what class they are, or how they can 1 vs. 5 and live indefinitely. I'm not the greatest PVPer but I'm far from the worst and I think something is wrong here. Kudos to that player (if they are not cheating) for exploiting what I consider to be loopholes in how PVP is designed in this game. I just don't see how their play style can be fun and I don't know why that play style is tolerated in the game. This is supposed to be a battle/war simulation and what real-world fights would go on for 15-minutes without 5-people being able to kill 1 somewhat quickly? If you think this is what ESO PVP should be you are entitled to your opinion but I would have to say I hate it and would have to disagree with you as much as humanly possible.

Heals and sustain should be equal across the classes and nobody should be able to heal so much that they cannot die when fighting more than a few players over several minutes. This isn't fun and this isn't realistic. There should be no God mode builds allowed.

Dem_kitkats1

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I don't understand how players who are outnumbering someone, or a small group even get low on resources in the first place. Why is knowing your terrain considered LOS abuse? This is important in many games even fps ones. The fact that is possible to improve and become skilled enough to pull off these outnumbered fights is what initially attracted so many people to this game (pvp).

I play in a small man usually, sometimes solo. Trust me my resources are almost always below 50, sometimes permanently near 20%. If people die it's because they made a mistake.

This is a recent clip from a fight with some friends. None of us have group sets, my own resistance is very low, and I can easily get 1 shot if I make a mistake.

youtube.com/watch?v=P9T31e-5HPo

Perhaps we have a difference on opinion as to what is skill and what is fun and that is fine. If you enjoy kiting people around and get a sense of achievement out of it, more power to you. The players that I am referring to in saying that they get low on resources, even in groups, are usually the inexperienced players who don't pay attention to their stat pools, don't realize when they need to heal or rebuff, or understand how rotations work along with LA and HA weaving. They are also the ones that will be more likely to follow you around as they don't think about LoS and kiting, and therefore, don't know any better. Most of the experienced players I know will ignore players that are obviously just kiting around and move on to easier targets because they know that there's very few ways to counter it and they're not going to waste time running around to try.

Your video did show how strong healing is right now in ESO PvP. The fact that a ganker nightblade build can take on 15+ players and come out practically unscathed because because self healing alone can make up for low resistance pretty crazy.

Alchimiste1

@Dem_kitkats1 that's not a ganker nb build at all.

YoureWrongImRight

@Alchimiste1 I think you are missing the point of the argument here.

You are trying to demonstrate something that you and a select few others view as being a purely skill based endeavor. So I would ask you, what could these players have done to counter your group? If it is truly skill based there should be something that they can actively do to demonstrate that they are more skillful than you and win the engagement, yes?

When this question is posed the response always seems to be "GIT GUD", which in this game simply translates to DO MORE DAMAGE, HIT HARDER. "Stun them and burst combo them", I saw them stun you and dump what they had, it was not effective, and even if it was, how would simply doing more damage be skillful? The damage you deal is a result of their stat sheet vs yours, it's purely a numbers game with no skill factor. If they do not have any mechanisms that are useful like defile debuffs that aren't complete garbage and useless, how are they supposed to overcome your healing power coupled with dodge roll and LoS breaking?

Majority of the population is using these techniques because they are extremely effective, you'd be dumb not the use them, it is the simplest way to have super high survivability, that does not mean it's by any means difficult to do. I am included in this group, and I don't do it because it's hard, I am not god tier for dancing around trees smashing heals, I do it because it's the simplest easiest way to increase your survivability 10 fold, because there is basically no counter play.

Dem_kitkats1

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Dem_kitkats1 that's not a ganker nb build at all.

Ok, but you're not a brawler build either. Regardless, the fact that a low resistance build can survive among 20 people shows how powerful healing is without having to try. As well as the fact there is no way to counter it is what is baffling to people coming from other MMOs.

Alchimiste1

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

@Alchimiste1 I think you are missing the point of the argument here.

You are trying to demonstrate something that you and a select few others view as being a purely skill-based endeavor. So, I would ask you, what could these players have done to counter your group? If it is truly skill based there should be something that they can actively do to demonstrate that they are more skillful than you and win the engagement, yes?

When this question is posed the response always seems to be "GIT GUD", which in this game simply translates to DO MORE DAMAGE, HIT HARDER. "Stun them and burst combo them", I saw them stun you and dump what they had, it was not effective, and even if it was, how would simply doing more damage be skillful? The damage you deal is a result of their stat sheet vs yours, it's purely a numbers game with no skill factor. If they do not have any mechanisms that are useful like defile debuffs that aren't complete garbage and useless, how are they supposed to overcome your healing power coupled with dodge roll and LoS breaking?

Majority of the population is using these techniques because they are extremely effective, you'd be dumb not the use them, it is the simplest way to have super high survivability, that does not mean it's by any means difficult to do. I am included in this group, and I don't do it because it's hard, I am not god tier for dancing around trees smashing heals, I do it because it's the simplest easiest way to increase your survivability 10 fold, because there is basically no counter play.

There is a lot of things they could have done better. I think the biggest mistake was tunnel visioning my friend while we were switching towers. I actually told him to run ahead because I was sure I was dead as I was lagging behind too far. However, they were so focused on him that I was largely left alone and managed to get to the next tower. The people who fell off and chased me in the end didn't keep their buffs up and allowed be to quickly ult them for some quick kills. we swapped towers in the first place because we were going to die, there was defile siege everywhere and our resource were straining more, so technically they were doing something right. I took a good stun and got hit by some ults in the first tower. That was good on their part I dropped really low (it was very effective) and survived because my friend leaped them off me.

There is a lot of counters to LOS, you can root spam, you can snare, you can chain pull, you can slot dark convergence, you can dot people up (can't kite that)
If I fought 4 of myself even if I had a tree or tower to run around, I would die 100% of the time.
If you got rid of LOS its just be a numbers game, and that be very boring.

schmistertyler

I'm just curious... When new players come to the game with squads of friends to bring more population to PvP and they proceed to get 1v7'd by a DK that seems to take no damage. Do you think they will be inclined to continue playing this game? Nope. I wonder why everyone says PvP is dying... wait a minute...


This is what I do for anyone who wants to run around on a broken build and never die. Dragon Knight Stamina. 5 pieces clever alchemist 5 piece Dragon Appetite. Dragon Appetite will increase your bleed damage and generate 10 stacks, 1 every half a second from Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw. Set your ultimate to Rend and front bar to Resolving Vigor. Back bar Cauterize / Shuffle / Volatile Armor / Rally. Your Dragons Appetite alone will be proccing a 11k heal every 5 seconds. Congrats you're healing for 7.6k base every second not even account for crit heals an additional 3500 per second from rend throw in CP bonuses +draconic power for +12% healing while volatile armor is active while sitting at well over 25k defenses + vampire stage 3 up to 30% damage reduction the lower you get. All of this while having around 2k stamina regen and over 6k weapon damage with clever alch proc which is another heal from activating a potion. Its easy to see while executing this correctly you could be healing anywhere from 12k-15k HP a SECOND while still melting people's faces off. Sometimes in 1v1 you can just put up Blood Craze / Claw / Breath and walk away if they don't have one of these Hybrid healer builds they can't even out heal the DOTS and just die.... This is broken [snip].


Furthermore ask yourself, when playing with 3 friends should get 1 healer 1 Tank 1 Glass cannon for flavor and filling niche roles? Nopeee Just run 3 hybrid healer DPS it's better. Who needs group composition when there is 1 build to rule them all. This is an absolute lack of diversity and unique game play experience.


I dunno about you guys but when I think of Sorc I imagine an insanely high DPS caster on the backline who if left unchecked would apply ensuing havoc. When I think of DK I think of a defensive-based class that presses the front and attempts to apply pressure to said Sorc to keep them on their heels and revoke their ability to free cast on a group's healers from behind the front line. When I think of Nightblade I imagine an extremely high DPS melee character who with the right conditions can take off into the mists with a 50/50 chance of either being smashed like a bug or smashing someone like a bug if not played with caution. I imagine Templar as someone on the defensive lines peeling DK's off their healers and Sorcs while applying buffs to their teammates with aura's . I imagine a healer as well a healer... lol etc for warden a bodyguard to healer's and necro mass hysteria creating a swarm of enemies that make targeting people hard. Each class with a ROLE. It just feels like right now so many classes can fill so many roles there is no uniqueness or rhythm to the madness. Just build to heal through everything and still do crazy damage and wait for someone to mess up. This to me just isn't a rewarding feel to PvP. When I play my Templar and DK they feel like the same class with different animations. I feel like there is no purpose or reason to do anything unique or fill a role.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Kwoung

schmistertyler wrote: »

I'm just curious... When new players come to the game with squads of friends to bring more population to PvP and they proceed to get 1v7'd by a DK that seems to take no damage. Do you think they will be inclined to continue playing this game? Nope. I wonder why everyone says PvP is dying... wait a minute...

Honestly, I wonder why anyone would try to take that tank down in the first place, anyone with a clue just ignores them. Yet, like tower humpers and ball groups running around the top of a keep, there is always a crowd that is thinking who knows what that keeps trying. Oh and BTW, those same tanks 1v12ing people, you can take them down with 2-3 players that actually know what they are doing.

Also, to being a glass cannon and arrows are bouncing off folks, well those players chose the wrong target, which isn't a game issue at all. I would suspect it isn't a very good bow build either. Heck, arrows bounce off me all the time and I am a sorc in light armor who doesn't use shields. I would say 98% of the arrows I get hit with are from players who don't know what they are doing, heck they can't even shoot me off my horse as I am auto-trotting along. Then there is the 2%, that will wreck me with a good quick, deadly rotation, kudos to them for being good at it! I got stuck on my siege just the other day, some guy must have snipped me like 6 times before I managed to get unstuck and then I just healed up and moved on... seriously? I was a sitting duck and should have been dead. Oh, and the being stuck wasn't lag that time, it was a keyboard mishap.