What is a good way to LEARN to tank?

Fennwitty

Paramedicus wrote: »

Idk if telling new tank to use wall to get crusher isn't bit of a overkill. New tanks struggle with resource management and wall is expensive (also many dung fights aren't that stationary + you can still apply debuff with light attack).

It is overkill on most normal dungeons and many fights isn't practical. As is much of the buffing and even some blocking.

But it's important and expected once you get harder content so may as well practice keeping up, even without the enchantment actually on the staff.

I agree though yes it shouldn't be the main focus.

K9002

Crusher works exactly like weapon/spell damage and weakening glyphs. It's applied and maintained the same way, it can even be used with a bow. If somebody is familiar with how mag or stam DPS characters utilize it then doing something very similar as a tank isn't that much of added difficulty. I think it's more difficult to understand which skills are useful in what context, and when casting them would be truly wasteful.

Paramedicus

Yeah, that's kinda my point. You don't need wall of elements to have good uptime of crusher. Just use infused two-hander. Wall of elements can make it somewhat easier (you don't need to reapply crusher manually as often but you pay the price with your magicka). Wall of elements is more of a trial thing IMO and in dungs - it is usually better to use that skill slot for something more useful. It is also good to keep in mind that crusher's damage buff is small, so it won't make much difference if you miss it few times because you use LAs instead of the wall.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

I think I understand now. The penetration spec - other than from the CP tree or some unique armor - comes from wearing light armor. Correct?

In that case, I would not normally contribute to the group pen, but my debuffing makes the other three pen values "contribute" more cause the boss has less resistance.

I thought my character had to have some penetration on their own.

Do I have this correct?

You really dont care about your own pen as a tank. Its a damage stat. You care about getting your DPS to the pen cap. As a general rule, DPS focus on pen from a selfish standpoint. Light armor, CP, Lover Mundus, Sharp trait, gear bonuses, etc. These only affect their own pen. You as a tank care about things that buff group pen on a specific target, Major/Minor Breach, Crusher glyph, certain 5 piece set bonuses like Alkosh, etc. You are trying to get the whole puzzle to add up so your DPS have as close to 18.2k pen as possible. Your character sheet is probably going to read 0 Pen. That's okay. Your DPS character sheets are probably in the 5-8k range, they arent ever going to read 18.2k (unless going overboard for a PVP build). When in combat, when every thing is going, it is all simply additive.

Again, dont over think it. Focus on Major/Minor Breach (pierce Armor) and Crusher (Infused destro staff with crusher glyph and Blockade). If you are casting Pierce Armor and Blockade on Cooldown, you are doing your part. If you get into specific group content like trials, well, you may be asked to wear an additional set for support you need to manage in someway, but that is probably a long way off. It is much easier to get to the pen cap than it used to be, especially for magic users.

Bitter_Apple21

@Oreyn_Bearclaw @Fennwitty @K9002 @Paramedicus

Folks, feel the need again to say thanks for all the help.

When I was digging into the pen stat, I could not even figure out where it came from - until the reply from @Oreyn_Bearclaw and the seeming focus on Light Armor. That helped me find the source.

And doing this for a year, that (where does pen come from) struck me that I did not really know a lot of things about this game. I then dawned on me that for my DPSs and the one healer, all I really did in their "development" was follow the Alcast websites on builds. Did not really even understand about pen, i.e. it might have said "...take all passives...". Did not gain the understanding that one of the is where pen comes from and how it works in a group.

Things like spending attribute points and what skills to work on were clear, so those helped me early on.

The tank however seems inherently different. I do not like over using the word strategic, but the little that I have experienced as a tank - at least in PUG dungeons - actual goes to the point that this character should be the one that effectively drives the battles.

I had one today, Vaults of Madness.

(On a side not, it was the first time it took almost 10 min after queueing to get in. That has never happened so far. Normally, I am in inside 30 secs, often right after I hit the "Queue" button.)

Since it was the first time, I was going for the Skill points, and occasionally lagging behind to interface with the NPCs. At the end, this time, I actually got a suggestion.

"I need to be faster on pulling in the trash mobs"

I could look at that as criticism - it came from a CP1200 character - but I simply realized that since I was NOT running ahead (as I do if I am simply trying to farm gear), I was simply not in front at any one spot to pull in the trash mobs.

The failure to be up front to deal with things is an example of the essence of the tank - take control to let the others deal the damage. I could imagine the usefulness of a Tank chaining everyone in, Taloning them in one spot and the a Magplar using crescent to take them out. Seems very efficient and effective to me.

Early on for the tank, I actually spent several hours simply trying to find out the basic one of where to spend attribute points, and could not. I joined this forums thing, saw this discussion post on "learning to tank" and jumped in.

I really do appreciate the info and comments. Thanks again to all.

And yes, it has dawned on me that all the folks that I am likely dealing with on this forum are way, way ahead of me in the playing of the game and the understanding of all of this, but even if some of the comments are above where I am now, trust me, they will not be forgotten.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

...
The tank however seems inherently different. I do not like over using the word strategic, but the little that I have experienced as a tank - at least in PUG dungeons - actual goes to the point that this character should be the one that effectively drives the battles.
...

Tanks basically *do*. But only in content where they're required.

Many players treat normal vs. vet dungeons as almost a different game entirely. On normal they'll rush in with their DPS and never wait for the tank, because they can get away with it and they feel it's 'faster' (though that can be debatable).

When DPS players do that on very hard content, they get killed and the rest of the group struggles to recover the situation -- or also wipes. If it happens over and over the DPS player can get kicked out of the group for being disruptive.

In hard content, it's entirely the norm that nobody instigates a fight except the tank. Fights work better when the tank is properly positioned and has taunts. They go very poorly when the tank is too far away to do what they have to, or they're in their inventory menu repairing broken armor.


However, the issue of speed at pulling trash adds: That's not a simple matter. Though it still largely depends on difficulty of content (for some groups, a given dungeon is easy, but different players find it hard regardless of difficulty settings). People want tanks not to be 'too slow' but they also don't want them to be 'too fast'.

In normal or well-known situations, where players 'want to go fast' they may still wait for the tank to begin fights but be impatient.

As a tank in difficult situations, you'll wipe the party if you pull in the next group too soon. If part of the group is lagging behind, or there's not been time to recover resources sufficiently -- also leads to harder fights and possible wipes.

It's not a binary choice. Whenever I join a pug group, the first few fights I gauge the abilities of the other party members I'm with. If they're killing everything super fast, then I can pick up the pace. If they're struggling continually, I slow down and deliberately check if they're ready before starting things.

Fennwitty

Side note: Vaults of Madness is a great dungeon but it's notoriously slow if anyone's doing the quests.

There's tons of dialog that has to play fully before players are able to speak to key NPCs to advance the quest, and that makes a lot of waiting for the other players if they're willing to travel together.

If someone's on the quest, just know they're going to have to hang out and stand in the room where apparently nothing is happening at all -- they're waiting on and dealing with NPCs and dialog the other players don't experience. At many stages, the quest NPCs are literally invisible to anyone not on the quest.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thanks. I found it interesting that when I read your reply, two things hit me:

1) the idea that a tank effectively is the one to "do" things or lead - even if that means that tank waits for the DPSs to catch up and not start something too early - goes to the dawning I have that this role is different, and

2) although I might gain understanding about something or learn the mechanics of a role or task i.e. chaining and when, taunting and when, etc, those things are often not really tested in non Vet dungeons.

There was one point in Vaults at the end, where (learning aggro vs taunts) I was the one that actually ran into the boss's space, I presume got aggro (but did not taunt yet), got onto his backside so he was facing away, and then taunted, etc, etc. To me, that is a small example of trying to put into practice some of the things I am picking up. Yes, maybe I should have taunted first, but I was more experimenting with my understanding of the difference between aggro and taunting, and it was interesting to see it unfold that way.

At least I think I have it right.

Thanks again.

On Vaults, agreed wholeheartedly.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

There was one point in Vaults at the end, where (learning aggro vs taunts) I was the one that actually ran into the boss's space, I presume got aggro (but did not taunt yet), got onto his backside so he was facing away, and then taunted, etc, etc. To me, that is a small example of trying to put into practice some of the things I am picking up. Yes, maybe I should have taunted first, but I was more experimenting with my understanding of the difference between aggro and taunting, and it was interesting to see it unfold that way.

Moving yourself into position before taunting is the ideal situation you want. Taunting will start the combat immediately, with the boss facing whatever direction they're facing.

If you get behind them and then Taunt, the boss has to spin around 180 degrees before attacking.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thanks. I did forget to say, that when I entered his space and think that got aggro, then when I did go around to his back, he turned to follow me.

Only then when he was facing backwards from the original direction did I taunt.

Bitter_Apple21

I think that is what you meant?

Correct?

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Fennwitty

Thanks. I did forget to say, that when I entered his space and think that got aggro, then when I did go around to his back, he turned to follow me.

Only then when he was facing backwards from the original direction did I taunt.

Technically there was no reason the boss had to 'notice' you at all before the taunt. In that dungeon you have plenty of room to circle around behind several of the bosses without getting too close for them to 'see' you at all. You could effectively sneak up on them without even having to crouch, and then ranged taunt at your leisure.

It's difficult for me to describe how aggro works in this game.

The best I can do is describe enemy behavior "before the fight" versus "during the fight".

Before a fight starts, enemies have a long distance perception range -- most enemies will simply not see you even if you're directly in front of them but too far away.

Once a player gets within their far perception range, the mob 'notices' which looks like faint reddish effects around their heads. There's also a noticeable audio cue but it can be drowned out by the game's music. Before combat, if hostile enemies 'notice' a player for long enough (something like 2-3 seconds I think) they will initiate combat themselves.

Which means if you get into their long perception range -- but then quickly get out of it again -- they forget you exist. It's like 'Oh did I see something? No I guess nothing's there.' It's related to stealth and sneaking around gameplay.

Mobs can also have a close-distance perception range. If you're using an invisibility potion to walk next to them, when you appear for even half a second that's close enough for them to start combat. They won't have a 3 second window.

You can try this out with overland monsters pretty easily. Just gradually get closer until they notice, and back away until they forget.

EDIT: Important Caveat: Within dungeons and trials, some encounters are scripted with the enemies already aware of your presence and running to attack. So there's no perception to deal with, combat automatically starts because that's how it's written to be. Like on some of the stairways in Vaults of Madness, waves of mobs will come at you from pretty far away because they're already in combat.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thanks. I had read that. If you are not "in their personal space" so to speak, they might loose interest.

On the Vaults final boss, I had run into his nose, and just kept running around to his back. He turned to follow my direction and when he was pointing away from the stairs - where the rest of the group was - I then taunted.

Why I am trying some of this stuff (and this one might have been wrong), is occasionally I get the impression that if a DPS launches a long attack, that will get his attention before I can get into range to taunt. Yes, I have the frost staff for the ranged taunt, but often times, my mind is not yet there for a ranged taunt.

For me it is reinforcing the issue that I need to be "leading" to take control - as much as possible - of the boss encounter.

At least, that is the sense I am developing about this role.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Fennwitty ...

is occasionally I get the impression that if a DPS launches a long attack, that will get his attention before I can get into range to taunt. ...

Yes that is literally what happens if someone directly attacks the target before combat officially started. They 'pulled' and initial aggro nearly always lands on whoever acted first.

Initial aggro is controllable (some enemies are wonky and might be bugged) -- first person to damage a monster gets its attention for ~3 seconds. That's sometimes referred to as a 'soft taunt' but soft taunt can mean other things also.

If you as the tank throw in an AOE to start a fight, every enemy you hit will go after you for a few seconds even without a taunt. You started the fight from their perspective.

Enemies that aren't hit directly though, once combat begins they might go for you who started it or they might go for a party member.

This means if a fight only lasts a few seconds -- I as the tank can throw a single AOE into a room, and the monsters will all chase after me directly. If I lead them into a tight grouping, the rest of my party members can shoot their own AOEs right there and kill everything with very little effort.

I am going to simplify greatly -- behind the scenes there are calculations and logic but to humans things appear to work out as below.

Once a fight has already started, "Aggro" for ESO has two modes:

1. Not Taunted (Primary target will change "randomly"* every few seconds, but the first target is usually the one who hits first)
2. Taunted (Primary target will be the taunting player)

Taunt overrides the default "Not Taunted" aggro system. It puts a leash on the target and forces it to mainly (not exclusively) attack the player who applied the taunt.

When not under a Taunt, for most intents and purposes, there is no 'hate' meter that builds up. Enemies hate all players about equally. They can bounce around choosing a new target every few seconds. Or they might stick with the one target for a long time.

One player can do a million damage, another player only 300 damage -- but in the course of a fight the boss can decide it wants to stomp on that 300-damage character. Or the guy on the other side of the room providing heals but otherwise doing nothing directly.

*

It's not really "random", but that's the easiest way to think of it. An untaunted target effectively chooses to attack whoever it wants, and might change their target every few seconds ... for reasons the players can't predict completely in an ongoing fight. You sort of can predict it, but this would open a can of worms. Ultimately you want enemies taunted to control them.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

I had read somewhere the part, that an "aggro'd" enemy might change their focus occasionally, so my intent had always been to "taunt" whether or not I get aggro.

Your point of a tank launching an AOE attack to grab aggro on a bunch, I had not even thought of. Once again, my tool of the frost barrier had initially been focused on raising the shields on the group. I had not thought of the option of using that on a mob, getting their focus on me, taunting what I can and taloning them in position (or vice versa).

Is there some sort of "area" taunt that I have not found yet? Or is that a good use of a ranged taunt - to actually force that attention, before any damage gets thrown, and position yourself accordingly and talon them (or something like that). Not necessarily trash mobs but if there are two bosses or something.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

I had read somewhere the part, that an "aggro'd" enemy might change their focus occasionally, so my intent had always been to "taunt" whether or not I get aggro.

If you are the only person taunting a boss, and the taunt is active, it will never change its focused main target. Except for the last boss of DIrefrost Keep dungeon, and (in practice) the last boss of Arx Corinium.

HOWEVER bosses frequently have scripted special attacks which ignore the taunt -- they are scripted to 'attack one random party' member for instance, or 'if someone gets more than 20m away, attack that player'. The bulk of its attacks will continue to be on you, but those special attacks will go after anyone.

You will see this a lot with big melee bosses that can charge, like the winged behemoth in Vaults of Madness.

That miniboss is programmed 'if one player gets too far away, charge at them'. It doesn't matter if anyone has it taunted, it will execute that special attack.

But as long as you're keeping Taunt up -- the monster will jump over to smack the far player and eventually turn around and come right back to where you're standing to keep fighting with you directly. As long as taunt's up, the enemy will come back after the special attack.

(Some dungeon mechanics are more complex, but this is the general idea).

Your point of a tank launching an AOE attack to grab aggro on a bunch, I had not even thought of. Once again, my tool of the frost barrier had initially been focused on raising the shields on the group. I had not thought of the option of using that on a mob, getting their focus on me, taunting what I can and taloning them in position (or vice versa).

When starting a fight in ideal conditions, that's exactly what you would do. The initial AOE attack helps round them up for Talons because they'll start chasing you (if they're melee).

Is there some sort of "area" taunt that I have not found yet? Or is that a good use of a ranged taunt - to actually force that attention, before any damage gets thrown, and position yourself accordingly and talon them (or something like that). Not necessarily trash mobs but if there are two bosses or something.

If you're the one starting a fight, practically any AOE attack ability you use will 'taunt' them for a few seconds.

Otherwise you can use the Tormentor armor set in combination with abilities like 2-h weapon Stampede which will taunt everything hit. Other ways too using Tormentor.

But you wouldn't tend to use the Tormentor set in difficult combats because there are other options that help the group more. https://eso-sets.com/set/tormentor

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

For me, here is another test for understanding.

Based on the idea that a "taunt" overrides an "aggro", does that mean if a boss is attacking another player - maybe I missed it or something, or it came from some passage I missed - will a ranged taunt cause that target to cease attacking the other player and come over to me?

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Fennwitty

For me, here is another test for understanding.

Based on the idea that a "taunt" overrides an "aggro", does that mean if a boss is attacking another player - maybe I missed it or something, or it came from some passage I missed - will a ranged taunt cause that target to cease attacking the other player and come over to me?

If the boss is executing a special scripted attack, and you taunt it, it will finish doing what it was scripted to do.

Some of the basic attacks can also take a little while to play out, so once they start on a target they have to finish before the boss is allowed to do something else.

But once the scripted attack ends, yes it will walk over to wherever you are if it can.

EDIT: Or turn and shoot at ranged if that's what the mob does, etc. Your party might still get caught in AOEs the boss launches in your direction though.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Thanks. Someone earlier had informed me of these unique attacks where they apparently break from taunt, but in fact are not off taunt. I saw that in Elden (I think) where after taunting and getting their attention, the final boss turned around or just turned to another attacker, launched something and then turned back to me.

So, using a ranged taunt to try a pull a boss off of a group player is an option. There are times I try to use the chains and the target is too big or immune, etc. A ranged taunt might pull them off.

I just read up on the Tormentor set. It says that that if you deal direct damage with a "pull" ability you buff your resistance and taunt.

I know the "chains" can do flame damage and they obviously pull. Does that skill trigger taunt? Or is flame damage not "direct" damage or is the "Pull" (it is in capital letters so might mean something special) of the chain not apply.

Fennwitty

The ranged taunt won't instantly make them spin around to you all the time as I said, because they might be in the middle of an animation or whatever. But after a moment they'll forget about attacking the other player directly and change to you as their primary target.


DK chains, the Fighter's Guild pull, the shield bash where you run at the target. Pretty much any actual skill with a pull/push/running into them to attack component.

Equipment set bonuses and sometimes other mechanics won't do it, but I think any player skill would as long as it includes one of the listed things and also does damage immediately.

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Just ran

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Sorry.

Just ran fungal 2. Mid way dps got way ahead and pulled boss up stairs. Came up, went past the boss onto floor, range taunted with frost, and worked like charm.

Guy came down the stairs to me and cleared stairway.

Thanks.

Fennwitty

No problem. You can edit a post by refreshing the web page after submitting and then hovering over it with the mouse, a small gear icon appears at the top right. You can then edit.

It's a little different with the first forum post that starts a thread -- the little gear will be way at the top of the screen next to the title instead of in the post.

You should work toward the Undaunted skill Inner Fire though, it's almost twice the range of Frost Clench. You can raise Undaunted skill line by doing the daily overland delves that Bolgrul at the capitals will send you on.

BejaProphet

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

Thanks. Don't think I explained myself correctly. It is not the target debuff, but your post on the "group" hopefully being around 18k penetration - as a combination of the 4 players - is what I am referring to. I know I am not supposed to do major damage but to your point my penetration needs to contribute to the 18k.

So I am still confused as to why the character's penetration stat is "0".

I just looked at my other toons (all above lvl 50), the two DPSs are just below 6k penetration (no buffs, just standing there) and the healer is at 4500 or so (same status).

From your math layout, it seems as if the basic character should have a penetration of 5984.

Does this stat only show itself if you are above lvl 50? Or is it simply a screen setting thing. I do not believe I have any settings that are unique on the tank for this PC.

On a different note, yes, I have been thinking to download that addon for my DPS units. There are times, I wonder, particularly on my Magblade, just how much I have him contributing. I know the Magplar helps with his execute, and I have been working on rotations for him to improve his "real" damage. But those two are set aside for awhile. There seems to be a bit more strategy on the tanking side.

Some of your confusion is due to imprecise language.

Strictly speaking, no group accumulated 18.2k penetration.

You are after an amount of penetration equal to the creature’s armor value.

Major and minor breach and infused crusher add ZERO penetration. They instead lower the creature’s armor value. So at the end of it you still have zero penetration but the monster only has around 7k armor.

Same for sets like Alkosh and crimson oath.

We just speak of it like penetration and add it like it’s all adding up to 18.2k to simplify it in our own minds.

That’s why it’s still zero on your stat sheet. Because all those are reducing armor not giving penetration stat.

Bitter_Apple21

@BejaProphet

Thanks. I finally did get the understanding that a tank's contribution is not "adding" to the pen, but "reducing" the armor rating of the target (two sides of the same coin).

I did note however, that there is this Undaunted (I think) passive that buffs my stats if I wear some Light and/or Medium armor, so I did file away that depending on how this character develops, there is a scenario where a Tank can actually add Pen.

It might be a long time, but if I get the Light armor skill up to 50 and spend the points on a passive, and throw one light and one medium piece of gear on, if I remember correctly, I could contribute something like 900 pts or something.

kringled_1

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@BejaProphet

Thanks. I finally did get the understanding that a tank's contribution is not "adding" to the pen, but "reducing" the armor rating of the target (two sides of the same coin).

I did note however, that there is this Undaunted (I think) passive that buffs my stats if I wear some Light and/or Medium armor, so I did file away that depending on how this character develops, there is a scenario where a Tank can actually add Pen.

It might be a long time, but if I get the Light armor skill up to 50 and spend the points on a passive, and throw one light and one medium piece of gear on, if I remember correctly, I could contribute something like 900 pts or something.

That sounds like you're still not quite there understanding wise. Personal penetration stats like from the light armor passive only affect the damage dealt by you directly, or dies not impact anyone else's damage. It doesn't usually hurt to do more damage as a tank, but it's typically a very small additional contribution and not a priority for you to invest in.

BejaProphet

What @kringled_1 said. You won’t ever add to the group’s penetration. You strip away armor making it require less penetration from them.

But as you aptly said, since it’s “two sides of the same coin” we tend to just talk as if it is all adding to penetration.

Bitter_Apple21

@kringled_1

Thanks. I got that from something @Oreyn_Bearclaw said a few posts back, so I get your point.

My comment to @BejaProphet was more of a "keep it in the back of mind" to me as to where Pen comes from. That made me remember the stat buff to myself on the Undaunted passive (if I wear some LA gear), and then the point that I still might end up swinging a blade at the boss for Ult regen (again, as a DPS I had not focused on where that came from), so IF I ever get to LA lvl 50 I could add some Pen to the team. But it would take a while.

Thanks again.

Fennwitty

Bitter_Apple21 wrote: »

@kringled_1

Thanks. I got that from something @Oreyn_Bearclaw said a few posts back, so I get your point.

My comment to @BejaProphet was more of a "keep it in the back of mind" to me as to where Pen comes from. That made me remember the stat buff to myself on the Undaunted passive (if I wear some LA gear), and then the point that I still might end up swinging a blade at the boss for Ult regen (again, as a DPS I had not focused on where that came from), so IF I ever get to LA lvl 50 I could add some Pen to the team. But it would take a while.

Thanks again.

Sort of, but honestly nobody expects the tank to contribute directly to damage in difficult content.

So if your character has 0 pen or 3000 pen doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.

Any damage the tank does in most difficult content is a nice bonus.

In a veteran dungeon with experienced players, I wouldn't expect a tank to be doing over 5% of the group's total damage. If the tank's regularly doing 10% or more of the total damage (you can tell with CombatMetrics) then the DPS players are not putting out the damage generally expected.

<Though that happens also if they're dead half the time.>

Bitter_Apple21

@Fennwitty

Understood. I was more "connecting the dots" on a few things from my perspective. Got from @Oreyn_Bearclaw that Ult regen can come from light and heavy attacks, and stamina regen comes from Heavy attacks (think I got that right). That means that in my "to be defined" pseudo rotation while tanking, I will be doing some damage with a physical weapon, if nothing else but for these other purposes.

That meant that if I am going to be doing some damage, try to remember that at some super high level, when my light armor skill hits 50 or something, select that passive to contribute to the pen. Someone correct me, but I could not see where anything in this path would be sacrificing any main tank role or skill or function, and yes, it would be a minor "bump" compared to what I could contribute on the "debuff" side.

But I do not see the tank hitting high lvls in light armour for awhile yet.