Too many bad healers in dungeons

ixthUA

After healing for 2 years, i've been tanking dungeons for several weeks and realized there are a lot of bad healers.
1/3 of healers are DDs with only self heal slotted, even on veteran.
1/3 of healers are not using spell power cure set, a must-have set for healers. I can see a big difference in my own damage when this set is not present.
1/3 of healers are using Hollowfang set, which is mostly useless: 6 meters effect radius and restores only magicka (a lot of DDs are stamina, tank needs mostly stamina).
Many healers are not stacking HoTs and dont know how to emergent burst heal (lots of dead healers and DDs).
For dungeons, i consider Spell Power Cure + Powerful Assault + Symphony of Blades to be BIS: +730 weapon/spell damage and main resource regeneration when needed. Haven't yet met a healer using this combo.

Mushroomancer

Since I'm guessing you are talking about all dungeons, I think, first of all, you need to make a distinction between normal and veteran.

In normal, I don't think you can genuinely expect people to have, or sometimes even know, about what the BiS sets can be, not to mention that normal dungeons barely require you to have 10k in dps to get through them smoothly, so your proposed sets would make a difference only in how fast you can get through a dungeon that is in most cases, realistically gonna take 10-15 minutes to complete.

In veteran, I get what you're talking about, but the thing is, unless you're going for specific achievements, you don't really need specific setups now, do you? Sure, with the sets you propose you will see an increase in dps, no doubt, but at the same time, unless you come across some genuinely lousy DDs, that is not going to hamper your ability to get through the dungeon in the slightest. Will it go faster? Sure. But it's far from a requirement.

Also, when it comes to the sets themselves, I can see SPC and Symphony, I run them regularly, but PA, you gotta understand, not everyone is gonna have it, and have the ability to keep it up with a decent uptime, so I can understand people maybe skipping on it.
What I tend to see, outside of the setups, is that a lot of healers, for some reason, remain stuck in that "a healer has to heal" mentality and do nothing else, not understanding that they're playing a support class which, much like tanks, goes beyond their basic directive. Add to that the fact that a lot of players flat out ignore mechanics in dungeons (maybe they're too used to them being a nuisance at most in normal difficulty), and I think the main problem here is inexperience when it comes to the gameplay itself, not limited to gear/skill setups, which may be related to the player not having everything they may need unlocked.
Also, you have to consider that not everyone is an endgame player, hell most of the playerbase won't even touch a trial with a ten-foot pole, and they might not even be aware that there are better options out there for sets, skills, etc. So the best thing you can do is, I think, if you come across players that look like they might need help when it comes to adjusting their setups, just lend them a hand, or give them a tip. Of course you will get the occasional toxic casual that will label you as an elitist just for trying to help, but that guy ain't going nowhere anyways, so who cares.

Jaimeh

ixthUA wrote: »

1/3 of healers are DDs with only self heal slotted, even on veteran.

Well these are not bad healers, they are just fake healers. Also, I don't think sets are so much the issue with a lot of pug healers, as the fact that they don't have a rotation, or a variety of skills, or a rudimentary following of cooldowns. Most will spam rapid regen, and heavy attacks, throw a few aoe heals or orbs infrequently, and they won't buff/debuff or if they do, they won't keep them up, and lastly won't weave light attacks (which is not a requirement, but skilled healers do), and generally just wait around. If more healers played also as DDs, I think they'become better as healers too.

BlossomDead

So basically they are bad because they don't play the game as you want them to.

newtinmpls

OP, you had some specific comments:

ixthUA wrote: »

After healing for 2 years, i've been tanking dungeons for several weeks and realized there are a lot of bad healers.
1/3 of healers are DDs with only self heal slotted, even on veteran.
1/3 of healers are not using spell power cure set, a must-have set for healers. I can see a big difference in my own damage when this set is not present.
1/3 of healers are using Hollowfang set, which is mostly useless: 6 meters effect radius and restores only magicka (a lot of DDs are stamina, tank needs mostly stamina).
Many healers are not stacking HoTs and dont know how to emergent burst heal (lots of dead healers and DDs).
For dungeons, i consider Spell Power Cure + Powerful Assault + Symphony of Blades to be BIS: +730 weapon/spell damage and main resource regeneration when needed. Haven't yet met a healer using this combo.

I'll touch on them one at a time, and I'll slightly re-name them to get at what I see as the main issue

DD with self-heal slotted AKA crappy random healers
I have not seen this (and I am not saying it doesn't exist) that being the case what I have seen comes close - a DD with resto backbar and maybe one or both of regeneration or grand healing. If a sorc, possibly Twilight heals as well. In a NON vet, NON DLC dungeon this is usually just fine.

This can be tricky to judge on Vet, partly because I've not seen (nor would I want to see) an addon that tells me exactly what set who has (although the "purple forearms" of SPC are pretty obvious).

Which Sets should/can a Healer Use
I'll start by saying I do have favorite sets (we all do) and Spell Power Cure + Sanctuary + Chokethorn - that is my default and it can heal most Vet dungeons, even when used by a "non standard" healer class (by which I mean anyone NOT a templar).
Sanctuary is relatively easy to get - Banished Cells (I & II)
Chokethorn is also - Elden Hollow I
Spell Power Cure is the hardest of the three and it comes from Imperial City Prison

What does a healer need? Depending on the speed of the DPS, boosts to healing, to magicka and (especially if things are NOT going smoothly) SUSTAIN.

So for folks not yet good with sets (or not CP 160) you might also consider:
Armor of the Seducer - a really accessible crafted set (2 traits needed) which gives
Magicka Recovery
Maximum Magicka
Magicka Recovery
Reduces the cost of your Magicka abilities by 10%.

As an aside...

Come to think of it, wonder how this would go with Worm's Raiment (also known as "Worm Cult") [it's a drop from Vaults of Madness - base game dungeon] which has
Increased Spell and Weapon Damage
Max Magicka
Magica Recovery
Magica Recovery you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.

Another thing to consider is unusual sets that dovetail well with particular skills.

For example my Warden Healers

Lamia's Song
Max Magicka
Magicka Recovery
Max Magicka
When you activate your Ultimate, you and your group members within 20 meters restore 23 Health, Magicka, and Stamina per point of the Ultimate's cost

By itself this isn't that awesome of a set, but works really well with the Warden Ulti Secluded Grove - which is a nice heal over time, but the initial burst could use some improvement.

The other set that is great for Warden Healers is Winter's Respite (overland drop from Western Skyrim, so available in guild stores if you don't have that DLC.

Magicka Recovery
Max Magicka
Max Magicka
Casting abilities that leave an effect on the ground will create a circle of healing frost for 10 seconds. You and your allies restore 2358 Health every 2 seconds while inside the circle. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds and scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

The reason this works so well with Wardens is that they have a LOT of abilities that leave ground effects. For that matter if things are going seriously south in a PUG you could also trigger this healing with scorch (from the Animal Companions line) or Impaling Shards (from the Winter's Embrace line).

What is needed from a healer AKA stacking and resources

In a non-vet dungeon including lowbies, you are simply not going to get a lot out of the average healer other than heals. As the healer becomes more skilled, other things come into play. Resources being a biggie.
This means besides a boost to health, the team will do better with a boost to other stats.
There are a few ways to do this:

Templar Skills
Restoring Aura (magicka steal to your team) and it's morph Radiant Aura (gives Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15% to your team)
Spear Shards (depending on the morph it restores at least the primary of Stamina/magicka and on one morph both) needs to be triggered as a synergy.

Fighter's Guild
Circle of protection and it's morphs gives +15% stamina regen to anyone standing in the rune area. Second skill in the line, so not too hard to get if you fight a lot of daedra or undead.

Undaunted
Necrotic orb and it's morphs will grant Stamina/Magicka (whichever stat is higher) to anyone in the group in range of it (needs to be triggered as a synergy). This is the LAST skill in the line, so even middle range healers may not have access to it.

Resto Staff
Siphon Spirit
Morph of Force Siphon that allows party members damaging the target to gain back Magicka as well as Health. This is the last skill in the line - so lowbies will not be likely to have it.

Destro Staff
Elemental Drain
A morph of Weakness to Elements that allows party members damaging the target to gain back Magicka. This is skill 4 of 5 in the tree, so again, not likely in a super low level healer.

Trick is, that the lower level the character, and the less experienced the player, the fewer options the character will have access to or the player with think of.
Long story short, if you meet a healer that's not that good at healing, ask if they want help. A few runs through someplace to get better gear, or even a guild recommendation.

VaranisArano

Word of Advice - if you want healers who meet your standards, take note of them when you see them. Ask to friend them if they'd be interested in running more dungeons with you. Running with random is going to get you random people with varying levels of skill and wearing random gear. When you meet a healer who meets your checklist, friend them, and you'll end up with a list of good healers for you.

ixthUA

newtinmpls wrote: »

OP, you had some specific comments:

ixthUA wrote: »

After healing for 2 years, i've been tanking dungeons for several weeks and realized there are a lot of bad healers.
1/3 of healers are DDs with only self heal slotted, even on veteran.
1/3 of healers are not using spell power cure set, a must-have set for healers. I can see a big difference in my own damage when this set is not present.
1/3 of healers are using Hollowfang set, which is mostly useless: 6 meters effect radius and restores only magicka (a lot of DDs are stamina, tank needs mostly stamina).
Many healers are not stacking HoTs and dont know how to emergent burst heal (lots of dead healers and DDs).
For dungeons, i consider Spell Power Cure + Powerful Assault + Symphony of Blades to be BIS: +730 weapon/spell damage and main resource regeneration when needed. Haven't yet met a healer using this combo.

I'll touch on them one at a time, and I'll slightly re-name them to get at what I see as the main issue

DD with self-heal slotted AKA crappy random healers
I have not seen this (and I am not saying it doesn't exist) that being the case what I have seen comes close - a DD with resto backbar and maybe one or both of regeneration or grand healing. If a sorc, possibly Twilight heals as well. In a NON vet, NON DLC dungeon this is usually just fine.

This can be tricky to judge on Vet, partly because I've not seen (nor would I want to see) an addon that tells me exactly what set who has (although the "purple forearms" of SPC are pretty obvious).

Which Sets should/can a Healer Use
I'll start by saying I do have favorite sets (we all do) and Spell Power Cure + Sanctuary + Chokethorn - that is my default and it can heal most Vet dungeons, even when used by a "non standard" healer class (by which I mean anyone NOT a templar).
Sanctuary is relatively easy to get - Banished Cells (I & II)
Chokethorn is also - Elden Hollow I
Spell Power Cure is the hardest of the three and it comes from Imperial City Prison

What does a healer need? Depending on the speed of the DPS, boosts to healing, to magicka and (especially if things are NOT going smoothly) SUSTAIN.

So for folks not yet good with sets (or not CP 160) you might also consider:
Armor of the Seducer - a really accessible crafted set (2 traits needed) which gives
Magicka Recovery
Maximum Magicka
Magicka Recovery
Reduces the cost of your Magicka abilities by 10%.

As an aside...

Come to think of it, wonder how this would go with Worm's Raiment (also known as "Worm Cult") [it's a drop from Vaults of Madness - base game dungeon] which has
Increased Spell and Weapon Damage
Max Magicka
Magica Recovery
Magica Recovery you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you.

Another thing to consider is unusual sets that dovetail well with particular skills.

For example my Warden Healers

Lamia's Song
Max Magicka
Magicka Recovery
Max Magicka
When you activate your Ultimate, you and your group members within 20 meters restore 23 Health, Magicka, and Stamina per point of the Ultimate's cost

By itself this isn't that awesome of a set, but works really well with the Warden Ulti Secluded Grove - which is a nice heal over time, but the initial burst could use some improvement.

The other set that is great for Warden Healers is Winter's Respite (overland drop from Western Skyrim, so available in guild stores if you don't have that DLC.

Magicka Recovery
Max Magicka
Max Magicka
Casting abilities that leave an effect on the ground will create a circle of healing frost for 10 seconds. You and your allies restore 2358 Health every 2 seconds while inside the circle. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds and scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

The reason this works so well with Wardens is that they have a LOT of abilities that leave ground effects. For that matter if things are going seriously south in a PUG you could also trigger this healing with scorch (from the Animal Companions line) or Impaling Shards (from the Winter's Embrace line).

What is needed from a healer AKA stacking and resources

In a non-vet dungeon including lowbies, you are simply not going to get a lot out of the average healer other than heals. As the healer becomes more skilled, other things come into play. Resources being a biggie.
This means besides a boost to health, the team will do better with a boost to other stats.
There are a few ways to do this:

Templar Skills
Restoring Aura (magicka steal to your team) and it's morph Radiant Aura (gives Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 15% to your team)
Spear Shards (depending on the morph it restores at least the primary of Stamina/magicka and on one morph both) needs to be triggered as a synergy.

Fighter's Guild
Circle of protection and it's morphs gives +15% stamina regen to anyone standing in the rune area. Second skill in the line, so not too hard to get if you fight a lot of daedra or undead.

Undaunted
Necrotic orb and it's morphs will grant Stamina/Magicka (whichever stat is higher) to anyone in the group in range of it (needs to be triggered as a synergy). This is the LAST skill in the line, so even middle range healers may not have access to it.

Resto Staff
Siphon Spirit
Morph of Force Siphon that allows party members damaging the target to gain back Magicka as well as Health. This is the last skill in the line - so lowbies will not be likely to have it.

Destro Staff
Elemental Drain
A morph of Weakness to Elements that allows party members damaging the target to gain back Magicka. This is skill 4 of 5 in the tree, so again, not likely in a super low level healer.

Trick is, that the lower level the character, and the less experienced the player, the fewer options the character will have access to or the player with think of.
Long story short, if you meet a healer that's not that good at healing, ask if they want help. A few runs through someplace to get better gear, or even a guild recommendation.

Sorry but this is a lot of wrong info. Also i havent tanked a single base game normal dungeon.

ixthUA

VaranisArano wrote: »

Word of Advice - if you want healers who meet your standards, take note of them when you see them. Ask to friend them if they'd be interested in running more dungeons with you. Running with random is going to get you random people with varying levels of skill and wearing random gear. When you meet a healer who meets your checklist, friend them, and you'll end up with a list of good healers for you.

When i see a 1000+ CP healer i expect them to have similar experience to mine, yet they are not on the same level, which is a mystery for me.

Mushroomancer

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Word of Advice - if you want healers who meet your standards, take note of them when you see them. Ask to friend them if they'd be interested in running more dungeons with you. Running with random is going to get you random people with varying levels of skill and wearing random gear. When you meet a healer who meets your checklist, friend them, and you'll end up with a list of good healers for you.

When i see a 1000+ CP healer i expect them to have similar experience to mine, yet they are not on the same level, which is a mystery for me.

Well, I'm sorry to say, but that is just an objectively wrong way to look at it. In the current state of the game, wherein most players are casual and there are a lot of ways to level up and farm experience, CP really means nothing, and you shouldn't use it as a measure of a player's experience in a specific role, in a specific situation. Not to mention, that player might have gotten to that CP level by playing other characters, so they might be a DD main or a tank main, just trying out healer as a role for the first time.

CP5

Mushroomancer wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Word of Advice - if you want healers who meet your standards, take note of them when you see them. Ask to friend them if they'd be interested in running more dungeons with you. Running with random is going to get you random people with varying levels of skill and wearing random gear. When you meet a healer who meets your checklist, friend them, and you'll end up with a list of good healers for you.

When i see a 1000+ CP healer i expect them to have similar experience to mine, yet they are not on the same level, which is a mystery for me.

Well, I'm sorry to say, but that is just an objectively wrong way to look at it. In the current state of the game, wherein most players are casual and there are a lot of ways to level up and farm experience, CP really means nothing, and you shouldn't use it as a measure of a player's experience in a specific role, in a specific situation. Not to mention, that player might have gotten to that CP level by playing other characters, so they might be a DD main or a tank main, just trying out healer as a role for the first time.

On top of this, experienced healers may also think "the normal pug I will run into won't make good use of damage buffs and resources, so I'm better off just healing them through damage and deal damage myself," that one finite gear set up the op mentioned is such a niche combination that the mileage any healer doing random dungeons would get out of it would likely be close to nothing.

VaranisArano

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Word of Advice - if you want healers who meet your standards, take note of them when you see them. Ask to friend them if they'd be interested in running more dungeons with you. Running with random is going to get you random people with varying levels of skill and wearing random gear. When you meet a healer who meets your checklist, friend them, and you'll end up with a list of good healers for you.

When i see a 1000+ CP healer i expect them to have similar experience to mine, yet they are not on the same level, which is a mystery for me.

No wonder you are frequently disappointed.

It's entirely possible to have 1000+ CP and queue up for healer without having your stated two years of healing experience or your preference for Spell Power Cure or even knowing to stack HOTs+Burst Heals (while buffing and/or dealing damage as your group needs). 1000+ CP is not guaranteed that someone is experienced or skilled at playing a healer.

[snip] There's no test for "Are you a good healer/tank/DD" before you queue up for the role, right? I've got 1000+ CP and have never healed Vet Dungeons before, but there's nothing stopping me from queuing up to heal one right now...

I don't find it very mysterious. You random queued for a random healer, with a random level of experience, skill, and desire to heal. Champion Points have little to no connection with those things. Just look at how high CP has practically no correlation with how much damage a particular player can do.


I'll repeat my advice: if you want to play with healers on your level, recruit from zone, guild chat, or friend good healers to recruit for future runs. If you don't, then you are choosing to run with random healers with widely varying levels of experience, skill, and desire to heal. You kinda get what you queue for, you know?

@newtinmpls also had good advice for what to do when you meet a healer who's not up to your standards. Ask politely if they want help. Tangible help like gear runs or guild recommendations are nice. And if they say "No thanks," that's fine - whatever they've got going is working well enough for them and their groups that they don't feel the need to change it. At a certain point, we just trust that either it really does work for them or they'll figure it out down the line. At least the offer was made.

[edited for rude comment]

NerfSeige

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Word of Advice - if you want healers who meet your standards, take note of them when you see them. Ask to friend them if they'd be interested in running more dungeons with you. Running with random is going to get you random people with varying levels of skill and wearing random gear. When you meet a healer who meets your checklist, friend them, and you'll end up with a list of good healers for you.

When i see a 1000+ CP healer i expect them to have similar experience to mine, yet they are not on the same level, which is a mystery for me.

They might be roleplayers, pvp only mains, questers/overland that want to start on group pve content and that dungeon might be their first few ones. Your exact attitude [snip] can sour a person’s first experience and can drive people away so please just stop and join premades.

[edited for baiting]

ixthUA

NerfSeige wrote: »

Your exact attitude [snip] can sour a person’s first experience and can drive people away so please just stop and join premades.

I have my best attitude towards teammates. Also i am not going to join a premade, due to it's inconvenience.
I have seen many good tanks, but havent seen good healers yet, which is a mystery.

the1andonlyskwex

ixthUA wrote: »

NerfSeige wrote: »

Your exact attitude [snip] can sour a person’s first experience and can drive people away so please just stop and join premades.

I have my best attitude towards teammates. Also i am not going to join a premade, due to it's inconvenience.
I have seen many good tanks, but havent seen good healers yet, which is a mystery.

It sounds like your expectations for "good" healers are way too specific.

In particular, the gear you seem to expect is more or less what I would describe as an off-meta trials build, not a PuG dungeon build. It's way too focused on buffing DPS for PuG dungeons (where there are only two, generally mediocre, DPS players to buff), while also specifically disliking Hollowfang Thirst (which is recommended by sites like Alcast) and requesting the somewhat off-meta Powerful Assault in its place.

Elendir2am

I prefer Olorime to SPC to be honest, Symphony of blade as monster set and winter's respite. Last set is far from OP, but I can go more on offense with it and compensate if DD has low DPS.

ixthUA

Hollowfang is useless to the majority of team (i explained why in the 1st message) while Powerful Assault as healer set is second only to SPC (in dungeons).
Today in vet DLC dungeon i got a healer (700 CP) with only radiating regeneration equipped, after 2 wipes he ragequit.

hafgood

If you want a healer in a specific set up a premade group is your best option, if you are not prepared to do that then what you get is luck of the draw.

Also high CP does not mean a player is any good at the content you are doing it just means either

A. They have been playing a long time; or
B. They are good at grinding CP.

Neither of which means they are a good player. There are many excellent low level players who are far superior to many high CP players

VaranisArano

ixthUA wrote: »

NerfSeige wrote: »

Your exact attitude [snip] can sour a person’s first experience and can drive people away so please just stop and join premades.

I have my best attitude towards teammates. Also i am not going to join a premade, due to it's inconvenience.

I guess you'll just have to weigh for yourself whether the inconvenience of joining/making a pre-made group with a healer who's up to your standards is better or worse than the inconvenience of queuing up for random and getting "bad" healers [snip]

Both of those seem somewhat inconvenient to me.

[edited for baiting]

ixthUA

VaranisArano wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

NerfSeige wrote: »

Your exact attitude [snip] can sour a person’s first experience and can drive people away so please just stop and join premades.

I have my best attitude towards teammates. Also i am not going to join a premade, due to it's inconvenience.

I guess you'll just have to weigh for yourself whether the inconvenience of joining/making a pre-made group with a healer who's up to your standards is better or worse than the inconvenience of queuing up for random and getting "bad" healers [snip]

Both of those seem somewhat inconvenient to me.

Ever since i started tanking, dungeons failed only few times, while i get instant queues whenever i want (like at 7 AM in the morning). However there are many DD and healer deaths, which could be prevented by proper healing. I think that keeping several HoTs stacked + 1 emergent burst heal is not a rocket science, but most of PUG healers cannot do even this much.

[edited to remove quote]

etchedpixels

ixthUA wrote: »

After healing for 2 years, i've been tanking dungeons for several weeks and realized there are a lot of bad healers.
1/3 of healers are DDs with only self heal slotted, even on veteran.

They are not healers. They are people abusing the queues to get a faster than DD queue time.

1/3 of healers are not using spell power cure set, a must-have set for healers. I can see a big difference in my own damage when this set is not present.
1/3 of healers are using Hollowfang set, which is mostly useless: 6 meters effect radius and restores only magicka (a lot of DDs are stamina, tank needs mostly stamina).

Whilst SPC is a very good set it's one a lot of players won't have ground dungeons to get. It's also btw not true that tanks always mostly need stamina, there are plenty of magtanks in the world too.

Many healers are not stacking HoTs and dont know how to emergent burst heal (lots of dead healers and DDs).
For dungeons, i consider Spell Power Cure + Powerful Assault + Symphony of Blades to be BIS: +730 weapon/spell damage and main resource regeneration when needed. Haven't yet met a healer using this combo.

So I have a bunch of fancy healing sets and staves (master's, black rose etc). In normal dungeon content I don't normally run most of them because it's not what the group actually needs.

1. They don't need that many heals, even when doing DS2
2. For a four man dungeon I can either give two DDs a damage buff or deal damage. Guess which is the win. Trials are different. In a trial I'm buffing 8 or 9 DDs for damage.

So I generally run winters respite and proc it with exploding wall flipping back to the masters resto now and then to top people up and keep up combat prayer. I don't need a second healer set and I spend most of my time blowing up trash instead.

Doc45

I've healed for 5.5 years and see things differently. Fake healers are fake healers so don't count as bad healers. I do tend to use SPC in dungeons (esp. in pugs) but sometimes use Olo. I do more trials than dungeons, and I'm maybe a bit lazy not switching to SPC, but if a group fails in a dungeon, it's not going to be because I was wearing Olo and not SPC. Hollowfang isn't useless. Like SPC vs. Olo, it's just situational. Stacking HoT's isn't needed either if the group knows mechanics. Overhealing's easy and necessary for SPC, but otherwise wasting a healer's resources. I agree a burst heal is needed. Powerful assault isn't the difference between making it or not (including no death, speed run, HM). I've never worn it in a dungeon and have completed every achievement in them.

The best healers are flexible, and yeah I'll change sets or swap skills if the group wants certain things. But, if you're looking for a healer wearing SPC+Powerful Assault+Symphony and get me in the queue as healer, it's not going to be the set with which I entered the dungeon. And, since I wouldn't know you or the DD's, being asked to wear that specific a set would tell me it's most likely an inexperienced group.

ixthUA

etchedpixels wrote: »

Whilst SPC is a very good set it's one a lot of players won't have ground dungeons to get. It's also btw not true that tanks always mostly need stamina, there are plenty of magtanks in the world too.

I thought WGT is a free DLC for everyone, it's also a very easy dungeon. Tanks need pierce armor and pull, which cost stamina, otherwise they are not doing their job.

etchedpixels wrote: »

So I have a bunch of fancy healing sets and staves (master's, black rose etc). In normal dungeon content I don't normally run most of them because it's not what the group actually needs.

1. They don't need that many heals, even when doing DS2
2. For a four man dungeon I can either give two DDs a damage buff or deal damage. Guess which is the win. Trials are different. In a trial I'm buffing 8 or 9 DDs for damage.

So I generally run winters respite and proc it with exploding wall flipping back to the masters resto now and then to top people up and keep up combat prayer. I don't need a second healer set and I spend most of my time blowing up trash instead.

I dont do base game normal dungeons as it's just a mess that can be soloed by 1 DD. If you try a veteran DLC dungeons:
1. All heals are needed.
2. You cannot DD and heal, so providing buffs to DDs is necessary.
Winters respite is useless in difficult dungeons, because DDs will be running around avoiding ground AOEs.

Doc45 wrote: »

Stacking HoT's isn't needed either if the group knows mechanics. Overhealing's easy and necessary for SPC, but otherwise wasting a healer's resources.

When doing PUGs, people may know mechanics, but not have enough experience with them, so having sufficient healing is important.

ixthUA

Today i did DLC dungeon with healer who had no self heal slotted, he died several times, 900 cp.

caesarvs

I am a healer main also, and we have to agree that the game does an awful job on teaching support roles how to play properly. Concepts like buff uptimes, enemy debuffs, group sustain are kinda non-existent through ingame texts. Sure, there are several guides out there on the internet, but a person should not be expected to go "wiki" around to learn them to do something so basic. One time, when i was pugging pledges as dps, i tried to explain to a cp1000+ healer the benefits of providing orbs for the team, the resource/sustain aspect, and they completely ignored me saying that the "heals are not enough", that its better slotting breath of life, and i was like "what lmao, you have 10 skill slots, what are you doing with them?", so i just pug as dps assuming we have no healer, providing myself all the important stuff like spell damage, critical and recovery.

ixthUA

Healing orb is not very useful in dungeons, i dropped it and never looked back.
So some people come with 20+ years of MMO experience, and for others it's their first MMO, and game puts them together.
There are 12 skill slots available.
1 bar should be for DPS, when DDs are bad, even full support healer can do a lot of DPS.
1 bar for support, when team is taking enough damage that you cannot DPS, or when DDs are good.
There are a lot of good skills that i'd like to have equipped, i would be much happier with 40 skills instead of 12.

SpiritKitten

I'm a healer. Don't tell me what to wear, you're not my raid leader.

ixthUA

I am not telling anyone what to wear in this thread. Also dungeon is not raid.

SpiritKitten

ixthUA wrote: »

I am not telling anyone what to wear in this thread. Also dungeon is not raid.

You literally said if healers weren't wearing one specific group of sets then they weren't wearing the right gear.

ixthUA

BiS is not the same as right, it means the best to use. Other sets can be used as well, but they will not be as good.
In dungeons, 7.2k was the highest spellpower i had, wearing only support sets and CP.

Paramedicus

there are too many bad healers in dungeons because they arent needed that much. If there was enough pressure to git gut, players would git gut (at least some of them).

Enemy's damage in dungs is usually too low, and self-heals too good, so true healer isnt needed in 95% of cases.

Damage gap between good DD and some casual PVEer/typical PVPer is so big that using damage/sustain buffs/sets is a risk (you can actually lower chances to finish the dung if you go full support instead going DD).

It's a game design flaw.

the1andonlyskwex

Paramedicus wrote: »

there are too many bad healers in dungeons because they arent needed that much. If there was enough pressure to git gut, players would git gut (at least some of them).

Enemy's damage in dungs is usually too low, and self-heals too good, so true healer isnt needed in 95% of cases.

Damage gap between good DD and some casual PVEer/typical PVPer is so big that using damage/sustain buffs/sets is a risk (you can actually lower chances to finish the dung if you go full support instead going DD).

It's a game design flaw.

Enemy damage isn't just too low, it's often also too high, resulting in one shot mechanics that can't be mitigated with healing.

Also, while I totally agree with you about support sets, I think there is one exception. As long as you aren't getting Major Courage somewhere else (which is likely, because Major Courage has so few sources), SPC is both a support set and an above average DPS set for anyone with even a minimal amount of healing. Compare the 5 piece bonus of SPC to the 5 piece bonus of Julianos. As long as you're overhealing regularly, SPC is better, even solo. Unfortunately, this results in terrible build diversity for healers, because SPC is almost always the obvious best option and has been for years. (At least the DPS meta tends to change over time.) That said, I don't run SPC on all of my healers because, while SPC is best, I'd rather have fun trying different things than always focus on being optimized.