Writing quality - target age/demographic or just bad?

dvstansb14_ESO

I just started the Blackwood main quest after long hiatus, and the quality / direction of the plot has left me sad and confused. I don't mean to knock the individual voice actors & actresses - I think they all did quite well with what they had to work with [snip]. Clearly a lot of time and resources were used and the production quality is high - I just wonder if the [snip] tone is intended to reach a specific age or demographic group. [snip] The worst offender for me is constant bubbly/upbeat attitude while in the midst of a mass homicide incident. If your going to write about mature themes, maybe the writing should also be mature?

I realize the writing has never been great, but it seems to have sunk to a new level, and I, for one, will not be purchasing future story-based content as a result. I'm really curious if there is some kind of actual business logic / social rational behind this [snip].

[edited for bashing]

StabbityDoom

Wow, that sucks for you, because the story for the deadlands is absolute gold. You'll miss out on Arox, who kicks major butt. Arox is some of the best writing I've seen in any game.

I don't think the writing has always sucked. Besides, the game is 17+, they aren't aiming at 8 year olds.

There's always been good and bad chapters. I liked the reach expansion story, but disliked Greymoor because I figured out the ending from the beginning. I think Blackwood was okay, not my full cup of tea, but that's just personal taste.

Not everything is objectively good/bad. Unless we're talking about technical aspects of writing, this is all a matter of opinion. My point in posting this is simply to point out that you should take into consideration other chapters, not just one, and assume some things are simply to your taste and some not. If you get to the place where you think all of it is like that, either your standards are too high or you need to move along and find something you like better. And that's okay too.

RemanCyrodiil_I

There's been a steady decline in writing quality year after year with the departure of more experienced writers like Lawrence Schick - and they've invariably been replaced by politically-motivated writers that favour a certain Disney-esque message in everything they write.

BloodyStigmata

Yeah, this year's was mediocre at best. Nothing about it really grabbed me. Last year at least had the brilliant level design to to keep me interested.

Some of the side quests are better though.

Kiralyn2000

Eh, as a 50+ yo who's been reading Fantasy & Sci-fi since the '70's, (everything from licensed-tie-in crap to Asimov to Burroughs to McCaffrey, etc)... eh, I'm fine with it. At least it's not more of that Look How Dark/Mature/Politlcal/Complex We Are junk like GoT or Witcher.

colossalvoids

Well at least players I'm in touch with would agree to the point, not that it was always the case but amount of "naive" writing increased dramatically. Call it use of cliché, disney-esque or a new one for me being scooby-doo (that Gideon main quest like is definitely a crossover of some scoob fan and 15yo fanfic writer, still hate the experience) I find it all strange for a game that was advertised as M rated. Eso was always in a sense presented like that but to a way lesser extent if that makes sense.

New writers are just a small part here I'm afraid, it's probably some internal thing in a company to make such a shift.

heaven13

The worst offenders, in my opinion, have to be the constant "remind me what we're doing" forced dialogue choices (you used to be able to skip these but now sometimes you need to ask to advance the quest), especially as you JUST finished dialogue and then immediately need to be reminded of the quest direction. Please stop.

LashanW

I haven't played any of the chapter stories. Only base game and some of the early DLC ones. A few boring, a few brilliant but mostly they were ok. I liked the writing as long as they didn't go for "world ending threat and you are the only who can save us!" route.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

At least it's not more of that Look How Dark/Mature/Politlcal/Complex We Are junk like GoT or Witcher.

[snip]

ESO got nothing on stories like "Hearts of Stone" DLC from Witcher 3. Gaunter O'Dimm, that's how you write a scary "bad guy". I still get the chills when I remember his theme.

[edited for baiting]

Kiralyn2000

Honestly, I don't really feel like "the game is advertised as M rated" necessarily has any bearing on writing, tone, etc.

You can have an incredibly sophomoric & cheesy game with an M rating due to splattered gore.
You can have an incredibly serious & thoughtful game with a deep psychological themes (no gore, no sex, no nudity, no cursing) with an M rating due to the story content.
And you can all sorts of stuff in between.

"But it's M rated!" has rarely seemed like a good argument most of the times I've seen it used.
("This online game is M rated, why can't I curse up a storm in chat?" "This game is M rated, why isn't there sex & nudity?" etc.)



edit: honestly, an awful lot of the "M for Mature" and "R for adults" stuff out there is really very immature.

dvstansb14_ESO

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Eh, as a 50+ yo who's been reading Fantasy & Sci-fi since the '70's, (everything from licensed-tie-in crap to Asimov to Burroughs to McCaffrey, etc)... eh, I'm fine with it. At least it's not more of that Look How Dark/Mature/Politlcal/Complex We Are junk like GoT or Witcher.

I agree w/ GoT assessment, but I really liked the witcher series (books & games) even though there was so much intrigue that it felt forced at times (except Hearts of Stone - that was 100% brilliant). I have a much lower tolerance for childish/predictable writing. I feel like it's not a money issue w/ ZOS, but an intentional writing stance. My only guess is that they're targeting a lowest common denominator - but again w/ the mature rating that doesn't make sense to me.

dvstansb14_ESO

heaven13 wrote: »

The worst offenders, in my opinion, have to be the constant "remind me what we're doing" forced dialogue choices (you used to be able to skip these but now sometimes you need to ask to advance the quest), especially as you JUST finished dialogue and then immediately need to be reminded of the quest direction. Please stop.

Definitely - I assume these are there for when players step away for a while and need a reminder, but it's really bad when you have to click through them to progress the quest after just completing a prior stage.

colossalvoids

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Honestly, I don't really feel like "the game is advertised as M rated" necessarily has any bearing on writing, tone, etc.

And that's something I'll expect myself, not just "use of alcohol and sexual themes" which might be something some might be looking for (skyrim modding scene shows it might be enough for some eh) but I'd expecting at the very least treat me like someone who's capable of understanding stuff on myself without handholding and explaining every simple concept like I'm first time hearing about it. We her a lot people saying that in-game writing treating us like a child or an idiot and that's why people bring up game ratings, no one is upset on lack of nudity etc. where GoT theme rises up in a mainstream infused mind. I don't even expect deep philosophical/esoteric themes, it's elder scrolls afterall and we saw that last time in morrowind.

If I didn't understood you correctly I'm not an English speaker, just saying.

VaranisArano

ZOS is writing for brand new players.

So Eveli is cheerful and upbeat because that's how she is at the start of Orsinium's questline, which new players won't have play yet. If you want some character growth for her, play Orsinium.

colossalvoids wrote: »

(that Gideon main quest like is definitely a crossover of some scoob fan and 15yo fanfic writer, still hate the experience)

Was that Ghostwriter of Giovesse or Haunted Legacy? I thought it was weird to have two mysteries where Ghosts/Memories tell what happened in the same city. Usually ESO has a little more variety than that.

It was even funnier to me because I did them right after I did Revus Demnevanni's quest with a ghost banishing lantern. Then I arrived in Gideon to do Yisara's quest with a ghost-summoning lantern. Then I did Faric Gemain's quest, and I'm like "Ghosts? I can banish them. I can summon them. Which do you want? Oh, you've got a Memory Stone? Fancy."

Blinx

The quest with Val in the deadlands was full of fart humor, like serioiusly!, totally turned me off, I don't recall any other quest that made me think jeez was this written by a preteen

I noticed a decline in writing quality since Greymoor

_Zathras_

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Eh, as a 50+ yo who's been reading Fantasy & Sci-fi since the '70's, (everything from licensed-tie-in crap to Asimov to Burroughs to McCaffrey, etc)... eh, I'm fine with it. At least it's not more of that Look How Dark/Mature/Politlcal/Complex We Are junk like GoT or Witcher.

I'm in that club as well, and feel the same way. Edgy and dark, with infinite layers of complexity for the sake of appearing to be complex is just..well, there are better ways to tell a story.

I find the storytelling in ESO to be fine. It's the smaller side quests that can be real gold, imo.

WildRaptorX

The year long stories, IMO, ruins the expansion storyline. The ending for the expansions have a rushed and predictable ending because the true ending is saved for the Q4 DLC. Blackwood prologue and first 3 quests were incredible, on par with the best, but quest 4,5 and 6 were too predictable and rushed… because the true ending is saved for Q4…. Completely ruined blackwood for me.

Here’s to hoping they stop year long stories in 2022

NarutoUzumaki24

This is probably what they'll work on next year, if they actually deliver what they said on that letter, away from world-ending storylines.

Arox though, he's the best part of this entire Gates of Oblivion story.

Call_of_Red_Mountain

heaven13 wrote: »

The worst offenders, in my opinion, have to be the constant "remind me what we're doing" forced dialogue choices (you used to be able to skip these but now sometimes you need to ask to advance the quest), especially as you JUST finished dialogue and then immediately need to be reminded of the quest direction. Please stop.

This.

Also Blackwood was weak and nothing can change my mind. Especially

Diedric Prince on his knees. I mean... seriously???

Morrowind-Clockwork City-Summerset line was fantastic. Imo. Don't care about political dramas, but we'll see what they'll give us. No more one year long stories, please.

colossalvoids

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS is writing for brand new players.

So Eveli is cheerful and upbeat because that's how she is at the start of Orsinium's questline, which new players won't have play yet. If you want some character growth for her, play Orsinium.

colossalvoids wrote: »

(that Gideon main quest like is definitely a crossover of some scoob fan and 15yo fanfic writer, still hate the experience)

Was that Ghostwriter of Giovesse or Haunted Legacy? I thought it was weird to have two mysteries where Ghosts/Memories tell what happened in the same city. Usually ESO has a little more variety than that.

It was even funnier to me because I did them right after I did Revus Demnevanni's quest with a ghost banishing lantern. Then I arrived in Gideon to do Yisara's quest with a ghost-summoning lantern. Then I did Faric Gemain's quest, and I'm like "Ghosts? I can banish them. I can summon them. Which do you want? Oh, you've got a Memory Stone? Fancy."

I believe Ghostwriter was the main quest line for the location (at least I remember it like that? Edit: yeah checked zone in-game, it was a main one). Maybe it was just me but it was really hard to handle myself when Yisara was starting her passages on her "immortal love". Kind of okay concept and poor execution case. Reminded me a lot of ghost tower quest in Witcher 3 (where the girls ghost was waiting for her loved one to take him with her, after she was eaten by rats thanks to him), but if everything would go wrong writing-wise:) Kind of taking ghost story concept what cdpr came up with and what was zenimax take on it, not direct story comparison obviously.

Funny enough I had the same quest order, was enough ghost stories for the day.

drsalvation

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Eh, as a 50+ yo who's been reading Fantasy & Sci-fi since the '70's, (everything from licensed-tie-in crap to Asimov to Burroughs to McCaffrey, etc)... eh, I'm fine with it. At least it's not more of that Look How Dark/Mature/Politlcal/Complex We Are junk like GoT or Witcher.

I'm ok with happy-go-lucky fantasy stories, it's just the ludonarrative dissonance that breaks the crap out of my immersion, it makes story-telling not as enjoyable. If the story is trying to sell a villain as a world-ending threat, then make the villain a world-ending threat that would motivate me to grind for that op gear from vet dungeons and trials. Instead, the final bosses are as scary as a random delve boss, the way the characters are portrayed seem to be having a blast in the midst of a mass purge, and because games as a service need to keep going, they can't commit to any direction whatsoever.
I defeated Molaag Bal (and I had to hold back to make the fight longer, the final boss from fungal grotto 1 was scarier than molag bal himself), stopped the planemeld and got my soul back... but apparently I didn't, since I keep seeing anchors dropping and some characters keep mentioning that my lack of soul is key to cross some magic barriers (at least they've been keeping it vague in later story chapters).
I think the stories they tell are actually pretty good, but they're so badly executed in any sense it completely takes away any tension or impact, and again, because it's a game as a service, it also makes stories completely meaningless.
Maybe if the stories weren't so far-fetched and were more local/personal ones, like instead of defeating a dad gummed DAEDRIC PRINCE, maybe make stories that better fit the ambience the game has, or if we ARE going to kill a god, at the very least, make the gods an actual challenge.
I still think a veteran story mode would improve the story aspects a lot more, because if you can't convey how deadly a world-ending-threat is by animations, voice acting, and graphics, you could at least convey it via gameplay.

whitecrow

Lyranth is trying to find Deadlight, meanwhile I have been passing Deadlight portals for a while now, and I can't tell her.

Paulytnz

heaven13 wrote: »

The worst offenders, in my opinion, have to be the constant "remind me what we're doing" forced dialogue choices (you used to be able to skip these but now sometimes you need to ask to advance the quest), especially as you JUST finished dialogue and then immediately need to be reminded of the quest direction. Please stop.

Are you sure they are forced or did you just choose them by accident? I get that it seems silly to get info about what you just did but you have to remember they make this game and these quests with casuals in mind. That being - those players who will NOT do all the new content in 1 or 2 days. They may spread it out over days, weeks or even months! So these "remind me" dialogues would certainly help these players.

However in your case, just do what I do, make sure not to READ or listen to EVERY thing the chat options offer, because that is what you will get, just reminders usually. Read/listen to the actual "forced" options and ignore the "I need to ask some questions" options. You can always do that later on another char anyway when you have probably forgot the story by then and have rushed through all the dialogue you have seen before.

Paulytnz

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Honestly, I don't really feel like "the game is advertised as M rated" necessarily has any bearing on writing, tone, etc.

You can have an incredibly sophomoric & cheesy game with an M rating due to splattered gore.
You can have an incredibly serious & thoughtful game with a deep psychological themes (no gore, no sex, no nudity, no cursing) with an M rating due to the story content.
And you can all sorts of stuff in between.

"But it's M rated!" has rarely seemed like a good argument most of the times I've seen it used.
("This online game is M rated, why can't I curse up a storm in chat?" "This game is M rated, why isn't there sex & nudity?" etc.)



edit: honestly, an awful lot of the "M for Mature" and "R for adults" stuff out there is really very immature.

I agree with you, my thought is the M rating is only there so they don't have to deal with all the legal nightmares that comes with having children players. Keeping in mind that they will probably get children players anyway so they have to keep it G rated just to be on the safe side.

Either way I don't mind. I don't play this game expecting the best storylines or something that will scare the heck out of me. Nope, no sir, I play for collecting and dress up barbie I guess lol.....

Sarannah

I do like all the individual stories in the zones/DLC's, they are easy to follow. The stories in dungeons should not be in dungeons though, and the year-long stories are too long to even remember all the parts. Especially if those parts are in dungeons.

The first time I do any zone, I always carefully read the text and click all the available dialogue. This does take longer, but when I run through on multiple characters, I will know exactly what I'm doing. And picking other dialogue options will also be easier that way, with multiple characters.

Personally I do not even really care about the stories, I just love new zones/areas to explore.

VaranisArano

Paulytnz wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

The worst offenders, in my opinion, have to be the constant "remind me what we're doing" forced dialogue choices (you used to be able to skip these but now sometimes you need to ask to advance the quest), especially as you JUST finished dialogue and then immediately need to be reminded of the quest direction. Please stop.

Are you sure they are forced or did you just choose them by accident? I get that it seems silly to get info about what you just did but you have to remember they make this game and these quests with casuals in mind. That being - those players who will NOT do all the new content in 1 or 2 days. They may spread it out over days, weeks or even months! So these "remind me" dialogues would certainly help these players.

However in your case, just do what I do, make sure not to READ or listen to EVERY thing the chat options offer, because that is what you will get, just reminders usually. Read/listen to the actual "forced" options and ignore the "I need to ask some questions" options. You can always do that later on another char anyway when you have probably forgot the story by then and have rushed through all the dialogue you have seen before.

The ones in between quests weren't always forced. I used to think they were silly until I took a long break in the middle of Elsweyr.

Even then, how hard would it be to rephrase it where they say, "Now that we've just done X and defeated Y, our next task is to..."

The reminders that happened in the middle of the quest were generally forced before we could progress. Like where I collected the clues for a mysterious party, read the clues for this mysterious party, and then Eveli immediately recapped what all the clues meant...that one I was like "I get it writers, you want me to know the info, but I seriously just read the contents of the invitation. I haven't forgotten in a minute."

Like, I'm sorry, but if Eveli and Verandis Ravenwatch and any other NPC needs to remind me what we're doing in the middle of the quest because the writer is afraid I've forgotten, then either the quest is too long or the stakes aren't high enough.

Treating us like we've got the memory of a goldfish is one of the things that makes players more likely to just rapidly quick through the dialogue, not vice versa.


(And it's hard to say "Don't click through the other options" as a blanket thing, because mixed in with all the other reminders, the writers will sometimes put new info or character reactions. I like the new stuff. I just don't enjoy being treated like dear old Varanis Arano has taken a few too many blows on the head.)

Adremal

dvstansb14_ESO wrote: »

I just started the Blackwood main quest after long hiatus, and the quality / direction of the plot has left me sad and confused. I don't mean to knock the individual voice actors & actresses - I think they all did quite well with what they had to work with [snip]. Clearly a lot of time and resources were used and the production quality is high - I just wonder if the [snip] tone is intended to reach a specific age or demographic group. [snip] The worst offender for me is constant bubbly/upbeat attitude while in the midst of a mass homicide incident. If your going to write about mature themes, maybe the writing should also be mature?

I realize the writing has never been great, but it seems to have sunk to a new level, and I, for one, will not be purchasing future story-based content as a result. I'm really curious if there is some kind of actual business logic / social rational behind this [snip].

[edited for bashing]

The Deadlands doesn't really suffer from the issues you mentioned. If you manage to endure Blackwood, you'll enjoy the Deadlands much more, with Eveli only making minor (but still disturbing) appearances.

dcam86b14_ESO

I am the opposite, I thought the writing was horrid in Elsweyr and Solitude. The Deadlands was a long while that I actually wanted to know about the side characters instead of the main cast.

Summerset was the last time I cared about an expansion as a whole.

Integral1900

The stories just keep getting better, tone is perfect for a fantasy adventure, can’t wait for next year.

My only request is to link up more of the zone stories into some overarching plot centred around the staff of towers? They’ve dropped plenty of details about that over the years

Adremal

Lohtar wrote: »

[snip]

There's actually plenty of fictional racism - and other themes that'd be sensible in real life (such as slavery, xenophobia, very conflicting religious views and so on) in the whole TES universe and ESO is no exception - but nobody in their right mind complains about it because they understand it's functional within the series' universe, it has always been there, and has nothing at all to do with "being woke", "Twitter SJWs" or any other such thing.
[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

Lohtar

Adremal wrote: »

Lohtar wrote: »

[snip]

There's actually plenty of fictional racism - and other themes that'd be sensible in real life (such as slavery, xenophobia, very conflicting religious views and so on) in the whole TES universe and ESO is no exception - but nobody in their right mind complains about it because they understand it's functional within the series' universe, it has always been there, and has nothing at all to do with "being woke", "Twitter SJWs" or any other such thing.
[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

The fact that previous post have been banned just prove what i said. Unfortunatelly not all people are mature enough like me or you, or the vast majority, to understand the difference between reality and fiction, so it feels like censor/ban is better than discuss on different ideas and express everybody their opinions or vision

Sturmfaenger

What I did not like in the deadlands was that the new mechanic with lucent and dynamus font was explained in excruciating detail. every. single. time. it. came. up.
It would have been ok if there was the option to have it explained again if I had not remembered the mechanic.
But I did! It broke my immersion and killed the fun to have it explained again, again, again to be able to continue the quest.

I would have craved that dialogue option "Ah, you don't need to explain. I know how those work." Really.