Been Staring at Builds for Too Long. Need Help.

Eormenric

I want to get back into PvP, starting with my Nightblade. I'm drawn towards going Stamina but not interested in the gank builds I see--all but saying no to stealth unless something really nifty comes my way as what I see seems so banal. I've read some "brawler" builds, but I don't see how many of them do enough damage to pressure even a glass cannon.

After combing through so many different builds and resetting character builders dozens more, I've realized I don't know what to build towards. How defensive do I need to be now? How offensive? Do I need to strictly counter the current meta (apparently it's being super tanky)? Is PvP at this point really just a 50/50 on if you'll meet a stonewall or burst someone down in 2 seconds?

My playstyle preferences are about sustain, decent but focused damage, and unique builds. Not really trying to juke, nuke, or hold block on someone. I wonder if I should just waltz into some BGs, Cyro, and IC and see what's out there before committing to a build.

Any thoughts on how to help a manic, would-be PvPer? I'd find comments on how to build, not how to copy a build, most helpful. Thanks!

fred4

Comments on how to build, huh? Stamblade is not one of my mains, but anyway.

Know your habits. Do you like stamina, because you're blocking or because you're dodge rolling? You can't have everything. Commit to your playstyle, if you know what it is. For me personally, I favor mobility and sustain over damage mitigation. In other words medium armor and a lot of, if not all, Well Fitted. Speed goes a long way on a nightblade. The Wild Hunt ring is very good. Then again my nightblades use cloak. The way I see it, what would be the point of playing the class otherwise?

Let me play devil's advocate. There is at least one other skill that is totally unique to nightblade: Shadow Image. If you don't want to use Shadowy Disguise, that automatically means Shadow Image for me. If you want to play a tankier, Brawler spec, that also means Relentless Focus, a skill you will find easier to avoid if you play a squishier, very high damage spec. If you spec tankier, you tend to end up with a bigger attack rotation, a longer time to kill and possibly having to use Relentless and an execute, both.

You'll want to think about your weapon choices. You could play a bow main, but let's assume you'll play melee. Your front bar choices are dual-wield or 2H. Dual-wield gives you Whirlwind, which is the primary reason I would use that weapon type. Whirlwind is deadly against other nightblades or dodge rolling targets in general. It could also be part of a more AOE-focused (BG) build, with Dawnbreaker or Soul Tether as the ultimate.

The primary reason to run 2H is Rally. I'd probably run 2H on one of my bars just for that skill alone. Unlike Vigor it does not uncloak or uncrouch you and, of course, it gives you flexibility with potions.

There are some skills I would probably always run. Surprise Attack. Just too good. Stuns. Buffs your damage. Resolving Vigor. Rally. Probably Dark Cloak, if not Shadowy Disguise. Relentless Focus or an execute or both. Probably Incap Strike. Camou Hunter on the front bar is always an option. Some form of speed or snare removal. Race Against Time can be very viable, depending on your sustain. If not that, then Shuffle. I personally would not play without snare removal, but I find Wild Hunt superior to Snow Treaders. I would not wear the latter on a nightblade (have tried).

Vampire is IMO a must on stamblade, if you're going to use stealth. Be at least stage 2 for the movement speed in crouch and the extra damage from stealth. Some people use Simmering Frenzy, but that's pretty much a pure ganking thing.

In terms of sets, consider the Markyn Ring of Majesty instead of Wild Hunt. I started putting something together with Markyn, Agility front bar, Clever back bar and Stygian on the body for pure damage, but haven't tried it yet.

Darloc Brae (back bar) is an interesting set that plays well (if you can get used to it), yielding almost magblade-like Cloak sustain, but also very high movement speed in crouch via the ability to spam Race Against Time.

Monster sets to consider include Balorgh for the damage or Zoal for defense. Zoal + Slippery CP works very well on a nightblade to extricate yourself from sticky situations.

fred4

I suppose I would be remiss, if I didn't note Caluurion now works on stamblades. That's probably one of the meta options now. Won't be a unique build...

fred4

Eormenric wrote: »

Is PvP at this point really just a 50/50 on if you'll meet a stonewall or burst someone down in 2 seconds?

This is virtually always the case. Finding someone evenly matched is and has always been somewhat rare, at least for me.

For what it's worth, I wrote up my magblade build (my main) a while ago, explaining why I build they way I do:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/578324/imperial-city-melee-magblade-build

The main problem is that it's not meta. Even with Caluurion it is quite weak. That often relegates it to AvA or Xv1. 1v1s are winnable against weaker players, of course, but 1vXs are a rarity. If you play objectives, be they Cyro ones or simply bringing Tel Var home, that doesn't matter. On the other hand, if you pride yourself on dueling better players, it won't be the build for you. I simply have a long history with this character and love the cloak sustain. I am not truly a ganker. I'm basically too weak for that. My time to kill is too high. I aim to participate in brawls on a squishy build, avoiding damage via movement and very high speed. The latest iteration of my build is the following. Note I have switched to all Well-Fitted on this character too. Wouldn't live without it anymore. Being one shot from time to time is inevitable, but I prefer the damage avoidance from Well Fitted when it works:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=401286

Brrrofski

On mine I'm running:

5 Kynmarcher front bar
5 Armor master back bar
Gaze of sithis
3 trainee

Lava foot for food
Dual wield front, 2h backbar. You can run 2h and bow fine though.

Khakit.

Around 34-35k (I think off top of my head) plenty of damage, good survivability, plenty of sustain.

Change your mundus and glyphs around for whatever stats you need, but I'd recommend going an infused mag recovery glyph, as you'll be using race against time as speed buff (as well as cloak if you want and shadow image, so a lot of mag skills).

You could drop cloak if you wanted, pretty tanky with that much health, sithis, armor master and major evasion from shuffle/elude (you're a Stam NB, most people will expect you to go into cloack and spam AOEs on you, so major evasion is pretty good).

Relentless / spin to win / vigor / surprise attack / cammo hunter (whichever the minor beserk one is) / soul harvest

Shuffle / cloak / rally / race against time / shadow image / soul tether

Soul Harvest is good instead of incap. Kynmarcher won't always proc Kynmarcher, so defile is nice and also that 20% damage against them plus ult on kills. Incap is still good though.

If you run bow, you can replace race against time with leeching strikes (sustain), poison injection (extra pressure) or even flare (more defence).

Can use any of them if you don't like cloak/shadow image.

You could always go with clever alchemist over armor master if you wanted more damage. You could drop sithis and 3 trainee and go with another mythic (majyn ring, wild hunt) monster set (balorgh, magma incarnate) and one piece trainee.

Can replace Kynmarcher for Caluurion, stuhns or truth on front bar.

Kaysha

5 New Moon front bar
5 Heartland always active
Gaze of sithis
Defending master bow back bar
Shoulder of joice

Front bar:
Relentless / rally / executioner / surprise attack / cammo hunter / onslaught

Back bar:
venom arrow / cloak /leeching strikes/ vigor / shadow image / balista

Khajiit
Serpent mundus
Jewels of Misrule

Well rounded build. jack of all trades, master of none.
You can gank not extremly tanky targets a brawl to a certain degree.

HonestFarmer

This is my most recent non-gank stamblade

Gears:
5 Unleashed Terror body and jewelries
Perfected Merciless Charge 2-handed Maul (Maelstrom's 2-handed) front bar (sharpened) - weapon damage enchant
5 Clever Alchemist Bow back bar (defending) - escapist poison or disease enchant
Gaze of sithis
1 piece Magma Incarnate shoulder
4 medium - 3 heavy, reinforced on chest, impenetrable on the rest
3 infused jewelries with weapon damage enchant

Skills:
Front bar: Forward momentum / Stampede / Surprise attack / Executioner / Relentless Focus - Ult: Dawnbreaker of Smiting or Berserker Rage
Back bar: Dark Cloak / Mirage / Resolving Vigor / Shadow Image / Leeching Strikes - Ult: Soul Tether or Reviving Barrier (group)

Race: Imperial

Attributes: 40 health 24 stamina

Mundus: Serpent if I use Tri-stat food or Warrior if I use Artaeum Takeaway Broth/Dubious Camoran Throne

This is a brawler build and pretty tanky. For me, Dark Cloak is a must have since it provides you with a very strong heal and 5% damage reduction. You can swap Forward Momentum with Rally if potion is enough for cc immunity and you need more heal. Surprise Attack can be swapped out for Dizzying Swing for more cc. Relentless Focus is used to burst your target down once it reaches max stack.

I usually aim for (without CP) at least 35k health, at least 1.5k recovery and close to 30k resistance. 1 offensive set and 1 defensive/sustain/utility set. Unleashed Terror + Merciless Charge is a fun combo since one cast of Stampede can proc both sets, and if your target don't run cleanse it can really hurt. Clever alchemist is a good back bar, and although it is not a defensive set, it has 2 max health bonuses which can boost your survivability. Since I prefer roll-dodge over blocking, gaze of sithis is a perfect choice for mythic. Bow on backbar is mainly for crit heals and major expedition

baselesschart

I'm seeing some hit or miss advice in here so I'll offer my input. What type of content are you planning on doing and in what manner? open world solo, bgs, non-cp campaign etc. I've always built my stamblade towards what it does best, and thats high burst, and will let my healing tooltips compensate for being a squishy spec.

Right now the meta consists of really high healing, and thats only accelerated by the aggressive cross healing that exists in the game. So if you want to do any meaningful damage against anyone that isn't a potato, you may want to have two damage sets, and then run sithis to bulk up your defenses. If you're really confident in your ability as a nightblade you can do what I do and run balorgh in place of sithis for even more burst. Your overall resists are gonna be lower but your healing tooltips after balorgh procs are going to be absolutely massive.

Also if you want my input, shadowy disguise > dark cloak. Dark cloak is better in a 1v1 situation but, shadowy disguise gets exponentially more useful the more people you have attacking you, and you will almost always have several people trying to kill you.

Eormenric

(I meant to post this hours ago!)

Thanks for the insight @fred4 and @Brrrofski !

I do see the same sets and skill line-ups often, but I might need to accept that they are that way because nothing else has been apparent to work just as well. And if I would want to go for a 100% original build, I'd need the experience of the real environment and not just theory. Looks like there's something to be said about knowing your strengths and weaknesses too. Every build can be countered by something. I suppose the goal is having that something be few and far between.

EDIT: I'll get to you others tomorrow! Thanks for sharing perspectives and commenting on your decisions.

fred4

I accepted some time ago that, if I don't have freedom of movement, if I can't dodge roll freely, remove snares and have some speed, I am not a happy bunny. This beats everything for me in terms of fun as well as effectiveness. I even started building for some stam sustain on my magicka characters. At one point, in the past, I ran Eternal Hunt on my magblade.

In particular, armor sets have become a distraction for me. Yes, some will give you more damage or more defense or more sustain, but you can move those parameters in any number of ways and arrive at the same result, regardless of what you wear. There are few sets that truly shift how your character plays. That's why I mentioned Darloc Brae. That set changes what you can do. You don't run down your stamina in crouch and you can either spam RAT or Shadowy Disguise. It truly shifts stamblade to a more magblade-like playstyle. Whether that's worth it is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I believe most would say it's not.

Where Sithis just gives you resistances, Zoal is another set that truly shifts the dynamics of some fights. There is nothing better than being ganked and have the attacker blocked from finishing you off. Juggernaut is a (back bar) set that allows you to push more and saves your bacon if you go too far. Unlike other sets, 20K resistances are not subtle. The problem, however, is that it's heal has been nerfed. I don't find it all that good anymore. Not automatically healing for much, when the set procs, all too often leaves you scrambling while the proc runs out. The proc is also unreliable. People can hit right through the threshold and kill you. At other times it procs early for no reason, especially from NPCs.

I've run into gankers, in the past, that have played all manner of extreme builds. One that sticks in mind used a Blackrose Bow that hit for obscene amounts along with other poison DOT sets. My DK melted in seconds while the nightblade was nowhere to be seen. When it was seen, it would knock you back with Magnum Shot. There are other bow builds that can be situationally very strong. Bombard spam locks you in place again, for example. I normally associate this with a beginner playstyle, but some of the better players using this can be really dangerous to my own nightblade. It is mostly a group thing, though.

Larcomar

Eormenric wrote: »

I want to get back into PvP, starting with my Nightblade. I'm drawn towards going Stamina but not interested in the gank builds I see--all but saying no to stealth unless something really nifty comes my way as what I see seems so banal. I've read some "brawler" builds, but I don't see how many of them do enough damage to pressure even a glass cannon.

After combing through so many different builds and resetting character builders dozens more, I've realized I don't know what to build towards. How defensive do I need to be now? How offensive? Do I need to strictly counter the current meta (apparently it's being super tanky)? Is PvP at this point really just a 50/50 on if you'll meet a stonewall or burst someone down in 2 seconds?

My playstyle preferences are about sustain, decent but focused damage, and unique builds. Not really trying to juke, nuke, or hold block on someone. I wonder if I should just waltz into some BGs, Cyro, and IC and see what's out there before committing to a build.

Any thoughts on how to help a manic, would-be PvPer? I'd find comments on how to build, not how to copy a build, most helpful. Thanks!

So you've got some really good advice on stamblades above. I'm just going to make the obvious point that maybe another class might suit what you want to do better?

I mean, when someone says they want a brawler, with good sustain and decent but focused damage rather than ganking, and definitely not stealth I'd instinctively say something like a warden, maybe a necro.

Not to say you can't play a stamblade like that - there's was another thread a while back (nightblade's so squishy or something) where people talked some pretty good brawler Nbs builds - just that it feels other classes might do what you want, better.

I don't want to put you off trying, just that I've sort of been through this loop on a coupel of other classes - stamdk for one - and realised after spending way too much playing around with builds that what I wanted was actually a different class.

- edit It was this one https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/587996/nightblade-squish If you scroll down there's soem quite good stuff in here too

Dorkener

Classic paralysis by analysis eh?
Just go out there and play, adjust build based on results.

You can make off-meta work, if it suits your playstyle. I'm running Essence Thief 2H frontbar (dmg + sustain), Sheer Venom bow backbar (added DoT pressure + sustain, PI keeps my poopy redguard passive rolling even when playing defensively), Wild Hunt ring (wroom) + Balorgh (extra ooph). Eough pts in health to not get 1 shot. Not a brawler, but not a wussy cloak & poke build either (90%+ kills happen in melee range).

fred4

Dorkener wrote: »

Classic paralysis by analysis eh?
Just go out there and play, adjust build based on results.

You can make off-meta work, if it suits your playstyle. I'm running Essence Thief 2H frontbar (dmg + sustain), Sheer Venom bow backbar (added DoT pressure + sustain, PI keeps my poopy redguard passive rolling even when playing defensively), Wild Hunt ring (wroom) + Balorgh (extra ooph). Eough pts in health to not get 1 shot. Not a brawler, but not a wussy cloak & poke build either (90%+ kills happen in melee range).

My very competitive friend just farmed another piece of Essence Thief - for his front bar. It's definitely not off meta. In fact, I'd say it's very meta (by which I mean the set in general), except I forget whether it's more for duels or for outnumbered. I think for duels.

Eormenric

@Larcomar Whoa. That thread has so many good stuff. I get what you're saying about not wanting to play stealth with the stealth class, but that's to believe that classes have only 1 dynamic and the thread you shared clearly shows that classes have more strengths than the obvious one. NB isn't just about stealth, DK isn't just about tankiness, Sorc isn't just about pets and teleporting to screw over your cursor, etc. But it is difficult finding just what that other dynamic is and playing it well. Kind of a test of knowing your class--which might make alt-lovers like myself struggle.

@Dorkener Definitely. I experience that often and in real-life scenarios just go forward anyway. Sadly, I would waste a lot of gold just going forward with any odd idea in this game, so analysis is necessary but so easy of which to do too much.

Larcomar

Eormenric wrote: »

@Larcomar Whoa. That thread has so many good stuff. I get what you're saying about not wanting to play stealth with the stealth class, but that's to believe that classes have only 1 dynamic and the thread you shared clearly shows that classes have more strengths than the obvious one. NB isn't just about stealth, DK isn't just about tankiness, Sorc isn't just about pets and teleporting to screw over your cursor, etc. But it is difficult finding just what that other dynamic is and playing it well. Kind of a test of knowing your class--which might make alt-lovers like myself struggle.
.

Glad it was useful And yeah, I get where you're coming from. I wasn't saying don't do it - some of the most interesting builds are where you take something like NB and do something totally different with them - just that I wasn't sure NB was necesasrily the right class for you. But if you think is, great. Play around with it, you'll get there. And there's lots of good advice on these board.

Theignson

My build is not meta and hasn't changed too much. It probably isnt such a great build but it works for me.

Diamond's victory, Spriggans, Master's bow backbar, 1 piece Molag, ring of the wild hunt, 1 swift, and celerity. Stage 2-3 Vampire. The Master's bow procs Diamond Victory melee range weapon damage and gives the weapon damage of Master's plus the weapon damage enhancement. Then you stampede in and melee.

The only defense is speed , cloak and vigor.

It can gank people , but also can melee to some extent since you hit hard due to all the enhancements (many dont show up on your weapon damage indicator) and penetration.

Theignson

fred4 wrote: »

I accepted some time ago that, if I don't have freedom of movement, if I can't dodge roll freely, remove snares and have some speed, I am not a happy bunny. This beats everything for me in terms of fun as well as effectiveness. I even started building for some stam sustain on my magicka characters. At one point, in the past, I ran Eternal Hunt on my magblade.

In particular, armor sets have become a distraction for me. Yes, some will give you more damage or more defense or more sustain, but you can move those parameters in any number of ways and arrive at the same result, regardless of what you wear. There are few sets that truly shift how your character plays. That's why I mentioned Darloc Brae. That set changes what you can do. You don't run down your stamina in crouch and you can either spam RAT or Shadowy Disguise. It truly shifts stamblade to a more magblade-like playstyle. Whether that's worth it is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I believe most would say it's not.
.

I always put on Darloc Brae when I take my NB into IC. I run Vampire so no crouch penalty and get infinite magika sustain. This plus ring of wild hunt . You need more magicka in IC due to all the guards constantly revealing you.

divnyi

fred4 wrote: »

There are few sets that truly shift how your character plays. That's why I mentioned Darloc Brae. That set changes what you can do. You don't run down your stamina in crouch and you can either spam RAT or Shadowy Disguise. It truly shifts stamblade to a more magblade-like playstyle. Whether that's worth it is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I believe most would say it's not.

Great set, can confirm. But it especially shines if you want to make fighter/bruiser stamblade in heavy armors, that still uses cloak and hit-n-run tactics. I'm able to sustain 4x heavys and tristat food, no sustain mundus or jewels in this set.

fred4

Theignson wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I accepted some time ago that, if I don't have freedom of movement, if I can't dodge roll freely, remove snares and have some speed, I am not a happy bunny. This beats everything for me in terms of fun as well as effectiveness. I even started building for some stam sustain on my magicka characters. At one point, in the past, I ran Eternal Hunt on my magblade.

In particular, armor sets have become a distraction for me. Yes, some will give you more damage or more defense or more sustain, but you can move those parameters in any number of ways and arrive at the same result, regardless of what you wear. There are few sets that truly shift how your character plays. That's why I mentioned Darloc Brae. That set changes what you can do. You don't run down your stamina in crouch and you can either spam RAT or Shadowy Disguise. It truly shifts stamblade to a more magblade-like playstyle. Whether that's worth it is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I believe most would say it's not.
.

I always put on Darloc Brae when I take my NB into IC. I run Vampire so no crouch penalty and get infinite magika sustain. This plus ring of wild hunt . You need more magicka in IC due to all the guards constantly revealing you.

Yes! Exactly! I rarely see this mentioned. Your stealth movement on a stamblade that mostly just crouches is kind of restricted by the NPCs in IC. Only when you're truly invisible do NPCs completely ignore you. I am an IC player. That's probably why I value my magblade so much, or this set when I'm playing stamblade.

divnyi

fred4 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I accepted some time ago that, if I don't have freedom of movement, if I can't dodge roll freely, remove snares and have some speed, I am not a happy bunny. This beats everything for me in terms of fun as well as effectiveness. I even started building for some stam sustain on my magicka characters. At one point, in the past, I ran Eternal Hunt on my magblade.

In particular, armor sets have become a distraction for me. Yes, some will give you more damage or more defense or more sustain, but you can move those parameters in any number of ways and arrive at the same result, regardless of what you wear. There are few sets that truly shift how your character plays. That's why I mentioned Darloc Brae. That set changes what you can do. You don't run down your stamina in crouch and you can either spam RAT or Shadowy Disguise. It truly shifts stamblade to a more magblade-like playstyle. Whether that's worth it is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I believe most would say it's not.
.

I always put on Darloc Brae when I take my NB into IC. I run Vampire so no crouch penalty and get infinite magika sustain. This plus ring of wild hunt . You need more magicka in IC due to all the guards constantly revealing you.

Yes! Exactly! I rarely see this mentioned. Your stealth movement on a stamblade that mostly just crouches is kind of restricted by the NPCs in IC. Only when you're truly invisible do NPCs completely ignore you.

Eh, that's not entirely true. It's possible to navigate IC in crouch (medium armor) without triggering NPCs, only cloaking occasionally to get past them (and players) point blank when needed.

Udrath

Throw on impregnable armour and try out sets with it. And try out jewels of misrule or bear haunch for good sustain and health. Impregnable is what I use with any set until I want to switch it out for more damage. You’ll def be able to brawl and team play with it

fred4

Eormenric wrote: »

the thread you shared clearly shows that classes have more strengths than the obvious one. NB isn't just about stealth, DK isn't just about tankiness, Sorc isn't just about pets and teleporting to screw over your cursor, etc. But it is difficult finding just what that other dynamic is and playing it well. Kind of a test of knowing your class--which might make alt-lovers like myself struggle.

I want to play devil's advocate. Nightblade is arguably a pressure class. Yes, you heard that right. It doesn't have the delayed burst skills that other classes have. The warden Shalks, the Blastbones, the Power of the Light, the sorc Curse, the sorc execute. Nightblade had unavoidable combos in the past. The one I particularly remember was Soul Tether into Assassin's Will. There was a time when that stunned you through block and when we didn't have the delayed timing of skills we have now. Simply Mass Hysteria into Assassin's Will was another. Those were guaranteed hits, but these combos have been nerfed via skill and timing changes. What nightblade retains are crit bonuses, the build up of damage from having Grim Focus active, the vamp stealth bonus it is especially suited to and, most of all, the Soul Harvest / Incap +20% bonus. That last one, especially, is what makes the typical nightblade dangerous. 6 seconds of increased damage on a class that can build for all damage and throw tankiness to the wind, because it's hit and run. That's what the class is balanced around.

Burst is what kills in PvP. We all know that. Lining up their delayed skill is what creates that burst on the tankier brawler classes. The typical nightblade has a 6 second pressure window instead. It's not burst. What makes it bursty is the stealth / surprise element, leading with a heavy attack or Elenental Weapon, and so on. Other than that, nightblade can still surprise the unweary player with Assassin's Will / Scourge, but it can't stun them and force that skill to land anymore. Will that be sufficient?

Now let's contrast this with the other pressure class, DK. A stam DK will DOT you up. It has the best DOT skills in the game. Nightblade lacks those. Moreover DK has the best ultimate in the game (when it works). The ultimate that hits the hardest, that stuns, that is AOE, that is also a gap closer and that combos unavoidably with Executioner. Leap. People complain about Leap doing "everything", but realistically that's what it takes for the designated pressure class to be competitive. It's only this patch that DK has received some other tweaks pushing it to top tier.

You'll be able to make a pretty good nightblade brawler without cloak, maybe even without Shadow Image, if you so choose. I've run into people with such builds and wondered: "Who is that and why are they so tanky? Oh, it's a nightblade? Damn!". What I doubt is that you'll discover a new meta or even something that plays substantially different to the traditional brawler classes. Tell me: Will you at least use Shadow Image? If not, then what do you think will be the nightblade skill that will set this apart from another class?

Of course, if you will be doing this for role-playing reasons, that's totally valid. If you don't have other classes levelled or don't want to use them for PvP right now, that's also understandable. So is just experimenting. I'm just trying to be realistic about the likely outcome, but who knows, maybe you'll discover something.

fred4

divnyi wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I accepted some time ago that, if I don't have freedom of movement, if I can't dodge roll freely, remove snares and have some speed, I am not a happy bunny. This beats everything for me in terms of fun as well as effectiveness. I even started building for some stam sustain on my magicka characters. At one point, in the past, I ran Eternal Hunt on my magblade.

In particular, armor sets have become a distraction for me. Yes, some will give you more damage or more defense or more sustain, but you can move those parameters in any number of ways and arrive at the same result, regardless of what you wear. There are few sets that truly shift how your character plays. That's why I mentioned Darloc Brae. That set changes what you can do. You don't run down your stamina in crouch and you can either spam RAT or Shadowy Disguise. It truly shifts stamblade to a more magblade-like playstyle. Whether that's worth it is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I believe most would say it's not.
.

I always put on Darloc Brae when I take my NB into IC. I run Vampire so no crouch penalty and get infinite magika sustain. This plus ring of wild hunt . You need more magicka in IC due to all the guards constantly revealing you.

Yes! Exactly! I rarely see this mentioned. Your stealth movement on a stamblade that mostly just crouches is kind of restricted by the NPCs in IC. Only when you're truly invisible do NPCs completely ignore you.

Eh, that's not entirely true. It's possible to navigate IC in crouch (medium armor) without triggering NPCs, only cloaking occasionally to get past them (and players) point blank when needed.

OK, OK. Sure. However "possible" is not "nice". Being a born and bred magblade, playing a stamblade without Darloc Brae is painful for me in IC. Not in terms of fighting, but in terms of maintaining stealth when you're not. From your point of view, I have most likely developed bad habits on my magblade. From mine, I love the unfettered freedom of movement in stealth. How much you value this is in the eye of the beholder, of course.

If you run into a strong group you have no hope of surviving and you accidentally aggro some NPCs as well, those NPCs will keep exposing a crouching stamblade, while sustained cloaking will let a magblade get away. Of course on another class you'll just accept this as par for the course.

Darloc Brae is in the "nice to have" category for sure, unless you perhaps make it your only source of sustain, as you have done. I have not experimented with that yet.

Ididuz

Now you may choose Night blade. Not Mag blade or Stam blade. Just Night blade. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=378195

xylena_lazarow

Eormenric wrote: »

Is PvP at this point really just a 50/50 on if you'll meet a stonewall or burst someone down in 2 seconds?

Yes, this is the best description of random Cyro encounters, thank you.

I tried the meta Stygian/Caluurion's thing, it's great, but the cast time on Incap still makes me rage quit.

divnyi

fred4 wrote: »

If you run into a strong group you have no hope of surviving and you accidentally aggro some NPCs as well, those NPCs will keep exposing a crouching stamblade, while sustained cloaking will let a magblade get away. Of course on another class you'll just accept this as par for the course.

You should be able to lose their attention in 2 cloaks max, moving out of their radius.

fred4

divnyi wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

If you run into a strong group you have no hope of surviving and you accidentally aggro some NPCs as well, those NPCs will keep exposing a crouching stamblade, while sustained cloaking will let a magblade get away. Of course on another class you'll just accept this as par for the course.

You should be able to lose their attention in 2 cloaks max, moving out of their radius.

There are certain NPCs that fire a slow projectile at you. That projectile can knock you out of cloak and, the instant you become visible, they fire another one. This locks you in a cycle of being exposed. The only way I know how to handle this is to pump cloak every single second and by being fast and covering a lot of ground. There are other NPCs that hit you with the original nightblade skill that puts thorns around your feet. This acts as a DOT and, every time it ticks, it knocks you out of cloak. Still. To this day.

Why are we arguing about this? I've already conceded that cloak sustain is "nice to have", that it's value is in "the eye of the beholder" and that you may accept dying in certain situations, because every build has counters and limits. I was trying to illustrate concrete examples of how cloak sustain helps you, if your choice is to stay out of a fight. Should you choose to go on the attack in those situations, perhaps you don't care. It can be a viable strategy on a stamblade.

Mainly, though, what I love is the casual way I can scout and, when I see it, beeline straight for some action in the distance, straight past 10 NPCs noses and, possibly, into the next district without being attacked by useless NPCs. It's a big middle finger to a nuisance game mechanic and I love it. It's not impossible on stamblade, I suppose, but it has to be more convenient on magblade. I am a perma-cloaking build. I move in cloak by default (not least for the Concealed speed buff).

By no means am I saying this is essential to success. Indeed, since we're talking damage avoidance, and even then just the convenience of it, that may not be at all a marker of success for the competitive player that you, perhaps, are. On the other hand I have historically valued staying out of fights, when I was a worse player than I am now. I'm still not top tier (and I don't care). Magblade was my second character after a stam DK. In the early days my stam DK regularly got ganked and slaughtered. Magblade was a revelation to me. She seemed so much smarter. Now I could choose my fights. Now I could choose to bring my Tel Var home. This was in the days we did not have a Cyro campaign to port to without incurring a long ride back to IC. I still feel safer entrusting Tel Var to my magblade without banking than on any other class (I don't really play sorc).

The other thing that happens when you perma-cloak is: You run across crouched players, mostly other nightblades, without them seeing you. All the time. You get the element of surprise. On the other hand you become extremely resistant to ganks yourself. The best players may hear you. Some relish nightblade hunting. Those are few and far between.

In summary: Magblade feels different to stamblade and Darloc Brae gets a stamblade halfway there.

Metemsycosis

I was watching a streamer (mighty mumble) and he ran wretched vitality+pariah+vate 2h, getting 33k resists, 6k weapon damage and 2800 stam recovery. I mention this because he is more of a brawler than say a ganker and the build seemed smooth

Eormenric

Metemsycosis wrote: »

I was watching a streamer (mighty mumble) and he ran wretched vitality+pariah+vate 2h, getting 33k resists, 6k weapon damage and 2800 stam recovery. I mention this because he is more of a brawler than say a ganker and the build seemed smooth

That's something similar to the build I ended up creating. I realized that I need to look at a class's abilities and see what sets pair with them. With the build you mentioned, using a Mark Target Morph would apply Major Breach (major debuff) and Surprise Attack would apply Minor Breach from Sundered, giving it 100% uptime. Pariah is certainly a generic defensive set, but if he slots a lot of Shadow abilities, that health boost would help stretch those armor values. I think a more offensive set to pair with wretched would be ravager. Just depends on playstyle.

I've gotten really interested in builds lately. I love looking for the sets that pair with what I want to do. I've got a few more characters that I want PvP-ready and I'm looking forward to discovering what sets work best.

Thanks so much to everyone for offering their experience with gear examples. It's reinvigorated my love of testing builds. My current build has been extremely successful in BGs and it's been a lot of fun. Wouldn't have been possible without such a supportive community.

gariondavey

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=403164

@Eormenric

Absolutely shreds, very tanky. This is a bg build.

fred4

gariondavey wrote: »

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=403164

@Eormenric

Absolutely shreds, very tanky. This is a bg build.

Looks legit to me.