solving tanking in ESO with one skill

Wing

Skill - Threat
Type - Toggle

effect: while this skill is active any enemies you damage will be taunted, whether ability, basic attack, bash, etc. any damage.
further more while active you benefit from Major Toughness and Major Protection, increasing your max health and reducing your damage taken. however you also suffer from major maim, reducing your damage done.


tada

Vevvev

Sounds like easy mode. I don't like it.

phaneub17_ESO

Why would anyone slot this?

bmnoble

Without major breach/fracture it would not even be worth slotting over the existing shield and board taunt.

And in certain dungeons you don't want to taunt everything especially with those bosses that have those overlapping aura's that make them stronger if you group them all together.

Ei8htba11

But, there isn't a problem with tanking

quadraxis666

Who is this solving tanking for?

Wing

Vevvev wrote: »

Sounds like easy mode. I don't like it.

sure would suck if we had tanks instead of dps queue'ing as tanks because all of 5 exist and think its fine.

but whatever, queue times speak louder then anyone's words.

phaneub17_ESO

Wing wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sounds like easy mode. I don't like it.

sure would suck if we had tanks instead of dps queue'ing as tanks because all of 5 exist and think its fine.

but whatever, queue times speak louder then anyone's words.

But those people who are DPS queue for tank spots aren't looking to tank, they aren't going out of their way to be a productive member of the group by slotting this.

Kessra

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

But, there isn't a problem with tanking

except for fake-tanks in normal dungeons that use the "other players do this as well" excuse as their only justification after being notified that throughout the dungeon all mobs were tanked by me, a lvl 29 stamina templar alt character with the bare minimum number of skills and some quickly put together items. His argument that he carried the group was also a lie from start to finished as I never felt below 65% of the groups damage, sadly. Oh, and the waiting-time to get into a normal dungeon was less than 3 minutes as DD. I honestly don't like the direction the game is going towards. So much more toxicity and rush-mentality in this game and ZOS is silent on this one. I'm currently evaluating if the direction the game is taking is really worth continuing playing this game. Not sure what really changed in the past 3 years, where I stopped playing ESO till 3 month ago because raiding was almost imposible for me due to constant latency issues and untelegraphed one-shot abilities, that the community became that toxic, but it is certainly something I'm not eager to support on the long run ...

But enough of the rant, back to topic. I honestly don't see a need or necessity for such a skill. Both taunts grant you the sole attention of the mob for 15 seconds. If you pair that with some CC right at the pull, you have enough time to taunt the mobs one by one, refresh your CC, do a bit of support and retaunt the mobs. Unless you have a second player in your group that taunts mobs for whatever reason, you shouldn't ever be in a situation where you might lose the mobs attention.

The only scenario plausible is when you are in a trial with a second tank and one of you accidentally taunted the wrong boss. As soon as the other tank taunts the mob back you have to wait till your first taunt fell of before your next taunt is recognized by the game.

trackdemon5512

“Fake Tanks” are only a problem if you can’t clear content specifically because the group needs a powerful enemy taunted AND can’t survive without.

I can’t think of any add in a casual run that has major hits that can’t be blocked or roll dodged. Simply if ppl learn mechanics on their own most tanks, like healers, are unnecessary in dungeons.

Grandchamp1989

[snip]

I like your idea OP but needs some work. Keep working on it.

[Edited for Baiting]

AlnilamE

Kessra wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

But, there isn't a problem with tanking

except for fake-tanks in normal dungeons that use the "other players do this as well" excuse as their only justification after being notified that throughout the dungeon all mobs were tanked by me, a lvl 29 stamina templar alt character with the bare minimum number of skills and some quickly put together items. His argument that he carried the group was also a lie from start to finished as I never felt below 65% of the groups damage, sadly. Oh, and the waiting-time to get into a normal dungeon was less than 3 minutes as DD. I honestly don't like the direction the game is going towards. So much more toxicity and rush-mentality in this game and ZOS is silent on this one. I'm currently evaluating if the direction the game is taking is really worth continuing playing this game. Not sure what really changed in the past 3 years, where I stopped playing ESO till 3 month ago because raiding was almost imposible for me due to constant latency issues and untelegraphed one-shot abilities, that the community became that toxic, but it is certainly something I'm not eager to support on the long run ...

.

None of which is solved by the OP's suggestion.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

“Fake Tanks” are only a problem if you can’t clear content specifically because the group needs a powerful enemy taunted AND can’t survive without.

I can’t think of any add in a casual run that has major hits that can’t be blocked or roll dodged. Simply if ppl learn mechanics on their own most tanks, like healers, are unnecessary in dungeons.

But the best way to learn mechanics is when there is a tank that positions the bosses in the proper spots. Why make things more painful than they need to be?

Vevvev

Wing wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sounds like easy mode. I don't like it.

sure would suck if we had tanks instead of dps queue'ing as tanks because all of 5 exist and think its fine.

but whatever, queue times speak louder then anyone's words.

Wait.... This is your solution to fake tanks??? They won't ever slot this because their goal is not to tank, it's to DPS and get through the thing for the shiny reward no matter the cost. And if this is for actual tanks all the issues listed above would make it not worth having. Also this "easy mode" toggle button lacks CC and a pull of some sort. The fake DPS running this will still be equally as worthless and probably lacking the health to survive the incoming damage anyways.

Raideen

Wing wrote: »

Skill - Threat
Type - Toggle

effect: while this skill is active any enemies you damage will be taunted, whether ability, basic attack, bash, etc. any damage.
further more while active you benefit from Major Toughness and Major Protection, increasing your max health and reducing your damage taken. however you also suffer from major maim, reducing your damage done.


tada

I like this idea. Give tanks the toolkit to succeed. I am using to holding aggro, ALL AGGRO from mobs to protect the DPS and especially protect the healer in any other MMORPG I have played. I feel naked as a tank in ESO.

I see healers all too often in ESO start getting pounded on by mobs and they start to kite/flee and heal themselves, taking their focus off the tank (or sometimes die). I have tried to pick those mobs up, but the single taunt the game offers takes forever and wastes resources. And now, I am focusing on mobs and not blocking boss attacks.

ESO could definitely use improvement to the tank toolkit. I like to know that I have the tools to protect whomever I PUG with, because some players may not have a food buff, or low health or something and that is not a problem that can always be solved in the middle of combat. Or if someones food buff drops.

Jeremy

Wing wrote: »

Skill - Threat
Type - Toggle

effect: while this skill is active any enemies you damage will be taunted, whether ability, basic attack, bash, etc. any damage.
further more while active you benefit from Major Toughness and Major Protection, increasing your max health and reducing your damage taken. however you also suffer from major maim, reducing your damage done.


tada

Looks nice (probably too nice). I'd definitely turn it on when I tank. lol

Graeae_Enyo

An all in one agrro pull? Sign me up!

spartaxoxo

The people who don't slot a taunt when fake tanking generally aren't doing it because they lack the ability to taunt. They are doing it because they want to cut in line and don't care about destroying everyone else's experience. No amount of taunt skills added to the game can fix a lack of empathy towards the group. I guess I wouldn't mind something along these lines for mob packs or whatever on an actual tank, but this skill doesn't solve the problem you want it to solve at all.

Kessra

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

“Fake Tanks” are only a problem if you can’t clear content specifically because the group needs a powerful enemy taunted AND can’t survive without.

I can’t think of any add in a casual run that has major hits that can’t be blocked or roll dodged. Simply if ppl learn mechanics on their own most tanks, like healers, are unnecessary in dungeons.

You clearly didn't get the point. Why do I have to use healing potions to stay alive as pretty much all the mobs are attacking me as the "tank" didn't care at all to at least taunt a single mob? It's like I'm queuing as DD an let anybody else do my job of killing the mobs and I stand in the back and watch them slowly killing stuff. That is more than anti-social. Sadly people refuse to kick players that queued as tank but not doing their job for some unknown reason.

Soloing the dungeon on normal difficulty isn't the problem, but when you group up and refuse to do what you are supposed to do is more or less cheating. And I now report each "fake-tank" or "fake-healer" as cheater as they clearly abused the system to skip some waiting time, which TBH wasn't that terrible at all for DDs. In the past couple month I didn't have to wait more than 5 minutes for a group invitation as DD.

I actually don't care if the tank is a real tank or a fake-tank as long as he's taunting mobs. But seeing people doing stuff "because everyone is doing it" and then straigt out lying that he carried the group when literally most of the damage in that group was done by me, and I was the lowest player in that dungeon, is just a picture of how the playerbase actually turned into. And that is something I don't like. This is an MMO after all where we players should work together and not against each other. But still, what I see each day on my DD alts in normal dungeons is horrific and very discouraging for new players.

VaranisArano

Imagine thinking that fake tanks are going to use "Threat" to hold boss aggro instead of simply admiring their DPS parse, patting themselves on the back for skipping the DD queue, and making someone else in their group tank the boss with their face.

Kessra

AlnilamE wrote: »

None of which is solved by the OP's suggestion.

You put my comment a bit out of context. The statment I responded to was that there isn't currently an issue with tanking. While this overall statement is fine for tanking itself, except maybe for the nerf to the mist-form in PvE if you are into endgame-raiding, I just remarked that "fake-tanks" currently are a problem, especially for new players or players that do not have that much time to spend in the game and therefore just play a couple of hours per month and thus are unfamiliar with mechanics and stuff. I agree that most of the first paragraph was a rant towards fake-tanks and how they currently divide the community, but as I main a tank and have every other class as tank as well, simply demanding that the one queued for tank slots a taunt and grabs the attention of the boss and a couple of mobs on the way through the dungeon seems already way to much to ask for.

I never claimed that the suggestion made by the OP may solve that fake-tank issue. How should it when fake-tanks already refuse to slot a taunt that grants them the sole attention of the mob for at least 15 seconds? If so, queuing as tank should probably automatically make you first target the mobs engage by default. As built in passive when you queue for that role.

Kessra

Raideen wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Skill - Threat
Type - Toggle

effect: while this skill is active any enemies you damage will be taunted, whether ability, basic attack, bash, etc. any damage.
further more while active you benefit from Major Toughness and Major Protection, increasing your max health and reducing your damage taken. however you also suffer from major maim, reducing your damage done.


tada

I like this idea. Give tanks the toolkit to succeed. I am using to holding aggro, ALL AGGRO from mobs to protect the DPS and especially protect the healer in any other MMORPG I have played. I feel naked as a tank in ESO.

I see healers all too often in ESO start getting pounded on by mobs and they start to kite/flee and heal themselves, taking their focus off the tank (or sometimes die). I have tried to pick those mobs up, but the single taunt the game offers takes forever and wastes resources. And now, I am focusing on mobs and not blocking boss attacks.

ESO could definitely use improvement to the tank toolkit. I like to know that I have the tools to protect whomever I PUG with, because some players may not have a food buff, or low health or something and that is not a problem that can always be solved in the middle of combat. Or if someones food buff drops.

Tanking is fine once you figured out what to do. In dungeons you literally start with a CC and then pick up mobs one by one with a taunt. There is enough time to do other things before you have to retaunt anything. But usually by the time you hit the last mob alive all the mobs are dead by now.

Seeing healers running around with a bunch of mobs attacking him/her is just a sign that the tank didn't do its job. The only situation where this might be acceptable is on early levels where your toolkit is very limited. But everything above level 30ish doesn't have that excuse. This is exactly the problem plenty of people have with "fake-tanks" they just queue to skip minutes of waiting time and get instant-invites. That is just a sign of pure greediness and anti-social behavior as they literally show no respect for and no interest in the group at all and thus ignore the likes and needs of the remaining party members. They now also often force you into boss-combat by rushing through and skipping mobs which has definitely a negative impact on players who want to experience the story. Just read through the forum and you will for sure find enough posts that aren't happy with the current situation.

lolo_01b16_ESO

In which situation would you expect a player to actually use this skill?

A fake tank who currently doesn't even slot inner beast (which increases their damage done against their taunted enemy by 10%) will certainly not slot anything that applies major maim to themselves.

A good tank will still prefer proper taunts that also apply debuffs to the target. Additionally there are a number of fights where you certainly don't want to taunt everything. (Imagine e.g. doing Moon Hunter Keep last boss with the tank having aggro from all wolves / werewolves)

New tanks might get tempted to use that skill, but it will be kind of a "noob trap" and as soon as they start getting into more experienced groups doing more challenging content they have to change their playstyle and learn how to tank with an actual taunt.

The only people that I can see actually benefiting from this skill are coordinated pvp groups. They can have one super tanky guarded player with that skill wearing vangards challange.

Xebov

Kessra wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

But, there isn't a problem with tanking

except for fake-tanks in normal dungeons

Tanking in the game works perfectly fine. It does for years. Just because ppl decide to fake tank does not change this.
The problem is that all of you want to be shinny little DD players that want to have a real tank for group content but none of you wants to be the tank. So instead of outnumbering tanks 2:1 you outnumber them 3:1 or 4:1. Then some of you decide you jump in as fake tanks. After that you DDs collectively decide that the problem has to be something with tanking and come up with half eaten ideas that you want to throw over existing tanks without thinking for a split second how it would impact us while at the same time all ideas and complaints from real tanks are completely ignored.

Kessra

Xebov wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

Ei8htba11 wrote: »

But, there isn't a problem with tanking

except for fake-tanks in normal dungeons

Tanking in the game works perfectly fine. It does for years. Just because ppl decide to fake tank does not change this.
The problem is that all of you want to be shinny little DD players that want to have a real tank for group content but none of you wants to be the tank. So instead of outnumbering tanks 2:1 you outnumber them 3:1 or 4:1. Then some of you decide you jump in as fake tanks. After that you DDs collectively decide that the problem has to be something with tanking and come up with half eaten ideas that you want to throw over existing tanks without thinking for a split second how it would impact us while at the same time all ideas and complaints from real tanks are completely ignored.

I don't know why you're addressing your remark at me?! If you'd read what I commented you should a) know that I main tank and have alt characters of each class that also tank in dungeons regularly and b) that my stance in that particular case is that tanking abilities are fine, maybe except for the mist form nerf which mostly affects end-game raiding and thus I don't see the need for the proposed ability/skill

Raideen

Kessra wrote: »

Tanking is fine once you figured out what to do. In dungeons you literally start with a CC and then pick up mobs one by one with a taunt. There is enough time to do other things before you have to retaunt anything. But usually by the time you hit the last mob alive all the mobs are dead by now.

Thank you, I have been taking for going on 17 years and fully understand the concept on how to tank.

Your explanation works on paper, but this is not what I see in this game or any game. For easily over a decade, DPS have issues waiting for the tanks, even in games like WOW where trash mobs can 3 shot you. I need the ability to pick up mobs FAST and not waiting 7 seconds between GCD for 7 mobs.

Kessra wrote: »

Seeing healers running around with a bunch of mobs attacking him/her is just a sign that the tank didn't do its job.

The only situation where this might be acceptable is on early levels where your toolkit is very limited. But everything above level 30ish doesn't have that excuse.

There are many fights in this game where ads spawn randomly on the playfield. Not the healer, nor the tank, nor the DPS could predict where they spawn. What is the World Bosses name in Blackwood who has the two dogs (who can 1 shot a player) and where mobs randomly spawn in the playfield to heal the boss? I see healers running from mobs in those fights even when top tier prop AAA tanks are tanking. How about harrowstorms? Some AOE taunt could work really well there.

Kessra wrote: »

This is exactly the problem plenty of people have with "fake-tanks" they just queue to skip minutes of waiting time and get instant-invites. That is just a sign of pure greediness and anti-social behavior as they literally show no respect for and no interest in the group at all and thus ignore the likes and needs of the remaining party members. They now also often force you into boss-combat by rushing through and skipping mobs which has definitely a negative impact on players who want to experience the story. Just read through the forum and you will for sure find enough posts that aren't happy with the current situation.

I dont disagree that this happens, I see it all too often but people are not going to change therefor the game design has to evolve around how people play.

Perhaps ESO should take a page from WoW's combat design and make it so that tanks have low CD AOE taunts and are intended to hold all mobs aggro and buff the mobs damage so that players get 2 shot. This might stop fake tanks from queuing and would definitely curtail DPS from running ahead. But then we have an issue (as all MMO's do) with not enough tanks...to that I would suggest that parties be 6 person. 1 tank, 1 healer and 4 DPS. Because most players are doing damage, this would help to stretch out the tank population.

Kessra

Raideen wrote: »

Thank you, I have been taking for going on 17 years and fully understand the concept on how to tank.

Your explanation works on paper, but this is not what I see in this game or any game. For easily over a decade, DPS have issues waiting for the tanks, even in games like WOW where trash mobs can 3 shot you. I need the ability to pick up mobs FAST and not waiting 7 seconds between GCD for 7 mobs.

Though you do the mistake and expect tanking in ESO should use the same mechanics as it did in WoW, and I tanked in both games as well.

The job of the tank in ESO is mainly to bring coordination to the fight, to position mobs and to have attention of the mobs that bear the greatest danger to the group, which is usually the boss itself or one or two adds. It is definitely NOT the job to tank all mobs or have instant agro of all mobs.

If you as tank can't sprint that much as you need to watch out for your stamina and over-ambitious DDs are sprinting forward and die as a consequence, that is NOT your fault. It is your fault though when the healer dies because one or two adds two shotted him/her.

The truth is, most people don't care about mechanics if the content is just a push-over one. And it used to be way more challenging, even on normal. The version we have now is literally fast-food content for people whose attention-span doesn't last for longer than 7 seconds and that can't read and comprehend more than 160 characters at once. In the past it was already possible for 4 DDs, without tank or heal, to rush through dungeons. Though this required the players to be actually good and to some degree coordinated. But now everyone seems to require that for normal dungeon just as they figured out how to solo them on normal difficulty.

Raideen wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

Seeing healers running around with a bunch of mobs attacking him/her is just a sign that the tank didn't do its job.

The only situation where this might be acceptable is on early levels where your toolkit is very limited. But everything above level 30ish doesn't have that excuse.

There are many fights in this game where ads spawn randomly on the playfield. Not the healer, nor the tank, nor the DPS could predict where they spawn. ... Some AOE taunt could work really well there.

And again, it is not about knowing by heart where random mobs may spawn, but it is how you react as a tank to that situation. In trials usually the position of trash mobs is fixed and thus this random element can for the most part be neglected. Taunt lasts 15 seconds. If you tank the world boss what are you actually spending most of those 15 seconds for that you don't have the time to taunt one of the adds? Even if a mob spawns right next to a healer, a more or less decent healer will make some distance to that mob and when being chased will dodge roll once or twice and eventually even get closer to you so you can pick that mob up. Sure, plenty of people end up in panic mode and just do the opposite, but that is more or less their fault. You can't cure stupid. As a tank situation awareness is quite important. Noone expects you to have the agro of all mobs instantly, but they do expect you to pick up mobs in a reasonable amount of time. And this is related to situation awareness. Looking what is happening left and right of you. Position the mobs so that the rest of the group doesn't have to take uncessesary damage and so on.

Raideen wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

This is exactly the problem plenty of people have with "fake-tanks" they just queue to skip minutes of waiting time and get instant-invites. That is just a sign of pure greediness and anti-social behavior as they literally show no respect for and no interest in the group at all and thus ignore the likes and needs of the remaining party members. They now also often force you into boss-combat by rushing through and skipping mobs which has definitely a negative impact on players who want to experience the story. Just read through the forum and you will for sure find enough posts that aren't happy with the current situation.

I dont disagree that this happens, I see it all too often but people are not going to change therefor the game design has to evolve around how people play.

Perhaps ESO should take a page from WoW's combat design and make it so that tanks have low CD AOE taunts and are intended to hold all mobs aggro and buff the mobs damage so that players get 2 shot. This might stop fake tanks from queuing and would definitely curtail DPS from running ahead. But then we have an issue (as all MMO's do) with not enough tanks...to that I would suggest that parties be 6 person. 1 tank, 1 healer and 4 DPS. Because most players are doing damage, this would help to stretch out the tank population.

I don't expect people to change either, and I predict that this whole case will get worse and worse over time as there is a level of toxicity among the playerbase rising that isn't good for the game at all. If this is somehow related to the issues WoW currently has and their community now exploring other MMOs or might be related to the whole pandemic stuff or something else, I don't know. I only know that ZOS really needs to reevaluate the current system and eventually make normal dungeons a bit more challenging and nerf damage of DPS to a degree where soloing normal dungeons isn't that easy and actually requires group play.

I still remember before One Tamriel where top DDs were able to do 10 maybe with plenty of luck 12k dps, I was raiding with the guy who surpassed 30k for the first time ever and quit the game almost 3 years ago when top-DDs were roughly able to do 75k DPS. And now, almost 3 years later DDs surpased 200k DPS. There is a constant power-creep in this game that invalidates content, allows you to skip plenty of mechanics and thus dangers and therefore degenerates players to pure DPS machines without any second though on how to improve situation awareness or other important parts of the game. I'm pretty sure most people out there don't know how to play the lunar phase at Rakkhat, final boss of Maw of Lorkhaj (MOL), simply because they were never forced to. This somehow reflects in the way people play and behave in dungeons and injects so much toxicity into the game for no reason.

trackdemon5512

Kessra wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

“Fake Tanks” are only a problem if you can’t clear content specifically because the group needs a powerful enemy taunted AND can’t survive without.

I can’t think of any add in a casual run that has major hits that can’t be blocked or roll dodged. Simply if ppl learn mechanics on their own most tanks, like healers, are unnecessary in dungeons.

You clearly didn't get the point. Why do I have to use healing potions to stay alive as pretty much all the mobs are attacking me as the "tank" didn't care at all to at least taunt a single mob? It's like I'm queuing as DD an let anybody else do my job of killing the mobs and I stand in the back and watch them slowly killing stuff. That is more than anti-social. Sadly people refuse to kick players that queued as tank but not doing their job for some unknown reason.

Soloing the dungeon on normal difficulty isn't the problem, but when you group up and refuse to do what you are supposed to do is more or less cheating. And I now report each "fake-tank" or "fake-healer" as cheater as they clearly abused the system to skip some waiting time, which TBH wasn't that terrible at all for DDs. In the past couple month I didn't have to wait more than 5 minutes for a group invitation as DD.

I actually don't care if the tank is a real tank or a fake-tank as long as he's taunting mobs. But seeing people doing stuff "because everyone is doing it" and then straigt out lying that he carried the group when literally most of the damage in that group was done by me, and I was the lowest player in that dungeon, is just a picture of how the playerbase actually turned into. And that is something I don't like. This is an MMO after all where we players should work together and not against each other. But still, what I see each day on my DD alts in normal dungeons is horrific and very discouraging for new players.

The kicker is the tank is designed to only taunt the strongest enemy. ZOS specifically does not want nor will ever implement a group taunt. They’ve said it repeatedly and the comments can be found if searched for.

I fake tank on a dps, only occasionally slotting a taunt if absolutely necessary. You DONT need to use potions. If you learn mechanics as a DPS and slot a self heal (which frankly all DPS should have one) you shouldn’t have a problem. ZOS specifically designed the game so DPS can handle such enemies on their own.

Now if anyone says “why should a DPS slot a self heal” then they should ask themselves why they feel it’s necessary to slap all healing obligations to a healer. Every single dungeon can be done on Vet without a healer yet I don’t see complaints about fake healers.

Raideen

Kessra wrote: »

Though you do the mistake and expect tanking in ESO should use the same mechanics as it did in WoW, and I tanked in both games as well.

The job of the tank in ESO is mainly to bring coordination to the fight, to position mobs and to have attention of the mobs that bear the greatest danger to the group, which is usually the boss itself or one or two adds. It is definitely NOT the job to tank all mobs or have instant agro of all mobs.

I am not mistaking, I fully understand how tanking is SUPPOSED to work in ESO but it only works on paper. In practical terms it does not work so well, this is easily observable daily. There is a lot of...well people running around like a chicken with it's head cut off. Simply, the tools do not exist for the tank to "bring coordination" to the fight. In fact the essence of ESO combat is extremely uncoordinated and that is because the roles are not clearly defined, meaning DPS and healers are "designed" to off tank mobs, except this does not always work, which is why we can res during battle. A lot of the core combat mechanics in this game are poorly designed, this is observable. If tanks had more utility, namely in an AOE taunt, much of these issues could be resolved.

Kessra wrote: »

If you as tank can't sprint that much as you need to watch out for your stamina and over-ambitious DDs are sprinting forward and die as a consequence, that is NOT your fault. It is your fault though when the healer dies because one or two adds two shotted him/her.

You are correct, its not my fault if DD rush forward to attack the mobs, that is the fault of the games design. Damage dealers would not be so brazen if there were real repercussions in a dungeon, like when dying having to run back from the entrance. The games design funnels the player into being more careless than other games, like wow.

Kessra wrote: »

The truth is, most people don't care about mechanics if the content is just a push-over one. And it used to be way more challenging, even on normal. The version we have now is literally fast-food content for people whose attention-span doesn't last for longer than 7 seconds and that can't read and comprehend more than 160 characters at once. In the past it was already possible for 4 DDs, without tank or heal, to rush through dungeons. Though this required the players to be actually good and to some degree coordinated. But now everyone seems to require that for normal dungeon just as they figured out how to solo them on normal difficulty.

I agree completely, but this is just as much fault of the games design as the games design allows for it.

Kessra wrote: »

Seeing healers running around with a bunch of mobs attacking him/her is just a sign that the tank didn't do its job.

And I already stated that a tank does not have the time to take 7 seconds in global cool downs to spam taunt, if their magica/stamina could even put up with it. An AOE taunt would solve this.

Kessra wrote: »

And again, it is not about knowing by heart where random mobs may spawn, but it is how you react as a tank to that situation. In trials usually the position of trash mobs is fixed and thus this random element can for the most part be neglected. Taunt lasts 15 seconds. If you tank the world boss what are you actually spending most of those 15 seconds for that you don't have the time to taunt one of the adds? Even if a mob spawns right next to a healer, a more or less decent healer will make some distance to that mob and when being chased will dodge roll once or twice and eventually even get closer to you so you can pick that mob up. Sure, plenty of people end up in panic mode and just do the opposite, but that is more or less their fault. You can't cure stupid. As a tank situation awareness is quite important. Noone expects you to have the agro of all mobs instantly, but they do expect you to pick up mobs in a reasonable amount of time. And this is related to situation awareness. Looking what is happening left and right of you. Position the mobs so that the rest of the group doesn't have to take uncessesary damage and so on.

Yes, again, I fully understand this. This is why I prefaced that I have been tanking for 17 years, I am not new to this. But as I also already stated, tanks in this game simply do not have the toolkit to cover the way many encounters work. I defer back to the world boss in Blackwood who has the two dogs and spawns teams of whatever they are, that heal the boss.
Just because people are getting through encounters and have been since the games inception, does not mean everything works smoothly or need no change.

Kessra wrote: »

I don't expect people to change either, and I predict that this whole case will get worse and worse over time as there is a level of toxicity among the playerbase rising that isn't good for the game at all. If this is somehow related to the issues WoW currently has and their community now exploring other MMOs or might be related to the whole pandemic stuff or something else, I don't know. I only know that ZOS really needs to reevaluate the current system and eventually make normal dungeons a bit more challenging and nerf damage of DPS to a degree where soloing normal dungeons isn't that easy and actually requires group play.

I am designer by trade. The failure with the community in ESO comes from the games design, not migrants from wow or any other game. The games design allows for this abuse. I went over this already. If mobs were more punishing, damage dealers would not rush forward as much because there of the reprecussions, but in order for mobs to be more punishing the tank needs to have a greater toolset for more control over the playfield, like in wow or any other MMORPG. The first place to start here, is an AOE taunt, or like the OP described that every ability a tank uses would cause threat generation.

Kessra wrote: »

I still remember before One Tamriel where top DDs were able to do 10 maybe with plenty of luck 12k dps, I was raiding with the guy who surpassed 30k for the first time ever and quit the game almost 3 years ago when top-DDs were roughly able to do 75k DPS. And now, almost 3 years later DDs surpased 200k DPS. There is a constant power-creep in this game that invalidates content, allows you to skip plenty of mechanics and thus dangers and therefore degenerates players to pure DPS machines without any second though on how to improve situation awareness or other important parts of the game. I'm pretty sure most people out there don't know how to play the lunar phase at Rakkhat, final boss of Maw of Lorkhaj (MOL), simply because they were never forced to. This somehow reflects in the way people play and behave in dungeons and injects so much toxicity into the game for no reason.

And again, the players are reacting to the games design. Everything we are talking about in regards to how players act, starts and ends with the games design.

zaria

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Kessra wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

“Fake Tanks” are only a problem if you can’t clear content specifically because the group needs a powerful enemy taunted AND can’t survive without.

I can’t think of any add in a casual run that has major hits that can’t be blocked or roll dodged. Simply if ppl learn mechanics on their own most tanks, like healers, are unnecessary in dungeons.

You clearly didn't get the point. Why do I have to use healing potions to stay alive as pretty much all the mobs are attacking me as the "tank" didn't care at all to at least taunt a single mob? It's like I'm queuing as DD an let anybody else do my job of killing the mobs and I stand in the back and watch them slowly killing stuff. That is more than anti-social. Sadly people refuse to kick players that queued as tank but not doing their job for some unknown reason.

Soloing the dungeon on normal difficulty isn't the problem, but when you group up and refuse to do what you are supposed to do is more or less cheating. And I now report each "fake-tank" or "fake-healer" as cheater as they clearly abused the system to skip some waiting time, which TBH wasn't that terrible at all for DDs. In the past couple month I didn't have to wait more than 5 minutes for a group invitation as DD.

I actually don't care if the tank is a real tank or a fake-tank as long as he's taunting mobs. But seeing people doing stuff "because everyone is doing it" and then straigt out lying that he carried the group when literally most of the damage in that group was done by me, and I was the lowest player in that dungeon, is just a picture of how the playerbase actually turned into. And that is something I don't like. This is an MMO after all where we players should work together and not against each other. But still, what I see each day on my DD alts in normal dungeons is horrific and very discouraging for new players.

The kicker is the tank is designed to only taunt the strongest enemy. ZOS specifically does not want nor will ever implement a group taunt. They’ve said it repeatedly and the comments can be found if searched for.

I fake tank on a dps, only occasionally slotting a taunt if absolutely necessary. You DONT need to use potions. If you learn mechanics as a DPS and slot a self heal (which frankly all DPS should have one) you shouldn’t have a problem. ZOS specifically designed the game so DPS can handle such enemies on their own.

Now if anyone says “why should a DPS slot a self heal” then they should ask themselves why they feel it’s necessary to slap all healing obligations to a healer. Every single dungeon can be done on Vet without a healer yet I don’t see complaints about fake healers.

This, in part is that if tank get all the agro he get problem blocking the boss as he will also block a ton of adds hit who is not needed. If tank get first hit he will soft taunts for some seconds anyway.

casparian

Wing wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sounds like easy mode. I don't like it.

sure would suck if we had tanks instead of dps queue'ing as tanks because all of 5 exist and think its fine.

but whatever, queue times speak louder then anyone's words.

This has nothing to do with the reason there aren’t tanks in the queue. That reason is twofold:
1. The typical PUG DPS does 18k DPS on their off-meta roleplay build and thinks LA weaving breaks the TOS. It is hell to PUG dungeons night in and night out with slow DPS, so tanks prefer to rely on people they know can deal with the content.
2. Most players don’t enjoy tanking because it is a slow, no-damage playstyle with no relevance in the vast majority of the game’s content (i.e. solo content). ESO should have taken the chance years ago to ditch the traditional no-damage tank design and turn the tank role into more of a bruiser and less of a turtle. That design works in other MMOs but ESO doesn’t have a good way to allow tanks to participate in regular content.

Amottica

Vevvev wrote: »

Sounds like easy mode. I don't like it.

My thought when I saw the title was that we have a solution without a problem. I just started tanking recently and I think the suggestion would make it boring.

Just my opinion, nothing more.