NB class tweaks (hybridization)

Zymcio

Hey,

i spend around 124days playtime on this class. I played as Healer/magDD/stamDD/Tank

my suggestion for upcoming patch it would be nice to hybridization class skills.

1. Make every class skill to scale with your highest offensive stats.
2. Change Hemorrhage passive to give Minor Prophecy and Minor Savagery.
3. Change Magicka Flood passive to give 8% max mag and max stam.
4. Sap essence/Power extraction to give group buff (that could bring support NB more to group) you can even lower damage + duration to 10sec.

DrSlaughtr

NB here.

1. This could get ugly. There's a lot of balance that goes into skills that will be used for weapon vs staff and if you do NB you'll have to do all the classes. Some skills though would be okay. For example, concealed vs surprise attack. I'd gladly take the extra sneak speed I get on my magblade for my stamblade.
2. Perfection.
3. Might be a little much but maybe not. I wouldn't turn down the extra stam. That entire tree is also totally geared for mag. It would be nice if there was another stam morph in there other than drain and strikes.
4. Seems okay to me.

Zymcio

Well point 1. is done already.

maybe pls consider:

2. Change Hemorrhage passive to give Minor Prophecy and Minor Savagery.
3. Change Magicka Flood passive to give 8% max mag and max stam. (this could be nice)
4. Sap essence/Power extraction to give group buff not only to self (that could bring support NB more to group) and let say the max range will be in 8m radius or something

Aoshy

I think Sap Essence is really bad right now, when u look at DK that is already really strong they have Inhale (morphs) that insanely powerful compared to Sap Essence and they dont even use that much cuz they dont need.. Sap essence damage or heal should be increased and give Major Sorcery/ Brutality when casted.

Zymcio

I think i will add one more point.

After NB launch a Merciless Resolve he should keep his buff which gives WD/SD for 5s. To give him a chance to rebuild stack and to not lose that WD/SD

plus rework morph

1. stam morph lower dmg but u dont need to precast skill it is just working as passive only you will need to cast bow at 5 stack
2. magick morph same

RemoryAzure

Zymcio wrote: »

1. stam morph lower dmg but u dont need to precast skill it is just working as passive only you will need to cast bow at 5 stack

this way it will be WAY WAY WAAAAY superior to magic version which only deals 10% more damage but:
1. has a bug when skill is active and timer is running, but u cant get stacks for some odd reason until u recast it once more
2. has a bug when skill ends with 5 stacks and when u recast it all stacks are gone (without changing location, happens all the time on bg's)
3. has a bug when u reach 5 stacks and press the skill, instead of dealing damage it just resets all stacks and the timer

p.s. hemorrhage doesnt need to be reworked coz all skills are now taking the higher of 2 critical chances. just use the stam potion on magblade with 10% critical chance and u'll see ~30% critical chance on ur mag skills due to 28% weapon critical (base 10 + 12 potion + 6 hemorrhage)
p.p.s. magicka flood doesnt need to be reworked coz stamblade is already dealing way more damage than magblade. consealed weapon 2323 base damage vs surprise attack 2323 PLUS sundered proc every use which is a an additional ~200-300 base damage AND -3k target defense AND +4% more damage next patch. magicka flood doesnt even give u 1/3 of these bonuses.

merpins

Zymcio wrote: »

1. Make every class skill to scale with your highest offensive stats. Done.
2. Change Hemorrhage passive to give Minor Prophecy and Minor Savagery.
3. Change Magicka Flood passive to give 8% max mag and max stam.
4. Sap essence/Power extraction to give group buff (that could bring support NB more to group) you can even lower damage + duration to 10sec.

I'd agree with you on everything here. NB needs a bit of a buff. But for #2, the reason why that's probably not gonna happen is Sorcerer. They get Minor Prophecy from their Exploitation passive, which is also given to the party. ZoS has stated that they want to keep these class-specific bonuses, and not diversify to keep class identity. I find this to be kinda dumb reasoning with the hybridization of stats and skills. Just look at Mage Light and Expert Hunter! THEY got hybridized! If they REALLY want to make it unique, they should give Sorc the minor buffs, and give NB a unique buff that is just like 1400 crit rate, flat, that way both stack but NB comes out with the more powerful crit buff that is unique to NB.

Mr_Stach

I would like to Give NBs Wardens +10% Magic Damage, so we can do extra Bleed Damage.

emilyhyoyeon

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I would like to Give NBs Wardens +10% Magic Damage, so we can do extra Bleed Damage.

yes please


also giving nightblade minor prophecy on hemorrhage will not work because of the way ZOS designed the four base classes to each give a unique minor buff--unless they decide to completely scrap this, which I'm not against. IMO they should redistribute most of the buffs and debuffs in the classes in a way that encourages bringing all different classes and specs.
ex. don't do something like give NB aoe minor vulnerability and then also give it to necro (on a skill that already gives minor protection and is a stun, to boot)

Goldtistic

Almost smart, except it just destroys class identity and smashes the importance of class diversity in roster. If sorc passive gave prophecy and savagery, and templar passive gave sorcery and brutality, you would just stick everyone else on a cro/stamsorc except for a single z'en DK and maybe a warden group healer. Hybridization is lovely, but class passive buffs need to stay unique for identity purposes.

For Magicka Flood: Also identity purposes! Why the hell would something called Magicka Flood give stam? Also you can argue at this point that DK's Helping Hands passive should restore 990 mag and stam, or that Sorcerer's passive should give 10% mag and stam recovery. It's just a tad strong, and again for identity sake just leave most of the class passives alone .

Number 4 makes total sense though, NBs need more support options.

Mr_Stach

If they wanted the group buffs to be unique, make them not Major/Minor Buffs.

Like Warden is a Brittle Machine. and although brittle is available to everyone, Warden does it best.

I think every class should have a Group Utility that they do better than the rest.

spotzhopz

I just wish concealed weapon would hit as hard as surprise attack

ccfeeling

Cripple damage is too low , need to increase or increase the duration to 15 seconds
Sap Essence cast in melee range but low reward , need better function or increase the healing percentage to 40 - 50%

Lailaamell

I feel like cloak and morphs need some buffing duration wise

Mr_Stach

Invis is pretty strong so longer durations will cause a panic for non-NBs

RemoryAzure

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Invis is pretty strong so longer durations will cause a panic for non-NBs

what about no?

not sure about stamblade, but magblade is the most trash class in the game sustain-wise, not only he has to have like 3k mana regen to stay in combat for longer than couple of seconds, but also cannot regen mana out of combat coz u waste it all on cloak, 3k regen is roughly the number that allows u to stay on the same % while not leaving stealth.

another problem that ranged magblade has to keep stealth on backbar which makes it harder to use coz bar swapping isnt happening every time u want it, thats the main reason im switching to oakensoul on all of my characters next patch.

and the last but not least, there are plenty of ways to keep NBs out of stealth - mages/fighters guilds' skills, flare (multiple times ive seen heal bots who runs with their party and throwing flares all over the place in 50m radius all the time), detection potions, aoe skills. there is no way u can ever enter stealth while fighting a good player.

thus, i would prefer to see cloak to be reworked somewhat like this:
- gives invisibility for 30 sec
- upon dealing an attack while in stealth u gain "revealed" status for 10 sec and heal for 10% of hp per second
(dark cloak heal into default version, i dont think it will be op coz we already have a class with the same healing on his burst skill AND minor protection with 100% uptime AND literally 2x more damage spammable AND healing for 40% of the damage dealt, yes templar, im talking about u)
morphs:
crit version: ur next attack is guaranteed to crit and deals up to 15% more crit damage depending on the stealth time (like rally but critdmg)
tank version: also gives 10 sec of minor protection and increases the amount of damage u can block by 10%

Mr_Stach

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Invis is pretty strong so longer durations will cause a panic for non-NBs

what about no?

not sure about stamblade, but magblade is the most trash class in the game sustain-wise, not only he has to have like 3k mana regen to stay in combat for longer than couple of seconds, but also cannot regen mana out of combat coz u waste it all on cloak, 3k regen is roughly the number that allows u to stay on the same % while not leaving stealth.

another problem that ranged magblade has to keep stealth on backbar which makes it harder to use coz bar swapping isnt happening every time u want it, thats the main reason im switching to oakensoul on all of my characters next patch.

and the last but not least, there are plenty of ways to keep NBs out of stealth - mages/fighters guilds' skills, flare (multiple times ive seen heal bots who runs with their party and throwing flares all over the place in 50m radius all the time), detection potions, aoe skills. there is no way u can ever enter stealth while fighting a good player.

thus, i would prefer to see cloak to be reworked somewhat like this:
- gives invisibility for 30 sec
- upon dealing an attack while in stealth u gain "revealed" status for 10 sec and heal for 10% of hp per second
(dark cloak heal into default version, i dont think it will be op coz we already have a class with the same healing on his burst skill AND minor protection with 100% uptime AND literally 2x more damage spammable AND healing for 40% of the damage dealt, yes templar, im talking about u)
morphs:
crit version: ur next attack is guaranteed to crit and deals up to 15% more crit damage depending on the stealth time (like rally but critdmg)
tank version: also gives 10 sec of minor protection and increases the amount of damage u can block by 10%

I didn't say it was a good or bad Idea. I just said people will panic...... because they already do

OBJnoob

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Invis is pretty strong so longer durations will cause a panic for non-NBs

what about no?

not sure about stamblade, but magblade is the most trash class in the game sustain-wise, not only he has to have like 3k mana regen to stay in combat for longer than couple of seconds, but also cannot regen mana out of combat coz u waste it all on cloak, 3k regen is roughly the number that allows u to stay on the same % while not leaving stealth.

Hard disagree. I’m no magblade expert— far far far from it— but let me tell you about my magblade. Dudes got like 800 mag regen. Like 600 stam regen. Stage 3 vamp, one reduce spell cost enchant, 5 or 6 pieces of heavy armor. I use siphoning strikes for mag regen, I use the soul harvest ulti slotted for resource restore on light attacks. I use the heavy armor constitution passive (sometimes I wear black rose,) I’m a high elf so that returns stam passively I think. Anyhow I know half that doesn’t have much to do with magblade but my point is that a couple key nb specific abilities and some well chosen passives and you actually have excellent regen on a magblade. Even when you are otherwise at a disadvantage for sustain (heavy armor instead of light and vamp stage 3 AND I’m talking about no cp.)

Not even kidding, the dudes got like 800 magick regen and that’s after popping a potion lol. Reduce cost glyphs and in-combat-resource-return are your best friends.

Oh yes I remember what I forgot. He uses a charged inferno staff and he does a fair bit of magic damage… so I hoping have some minor magick steal going on.

RemoryAzure

OBJnoob wrote: »

Hard disagree

yes, but all the things u listed make u unable to do any solid damage
incap ult is good but it makes u more melee-oriented, u choose 100 regen over, for example, mages guild ulti
charged trait is op for force pulse, but for swallow soul u change ~6% overall damage (sharpened) for a proc with somewhat like 200 dmg and 168 mana regen per light attack (u might also use debilitate or staff breach for the same thing but with more efficiency).
high elf is also not a good choise, breton is still better sustain wise, while khajit offers more damage.

regarding spell cost glyphs - yes, they are better than regen ones in terms of staying in combat, but every second u are not using skills makes math profit of cost glyphs equal to zero, while regen ones work all the time.

^ and thats the main problem of NB. literally all of ur setup - incap ult, magickasteal, cost glyphs, race, and even heavy armor passive - they ALL work ONLY while u are attacking someone (or being attacked). siphoning strikes partially too, however i use them too coz i have no choice. dude, i bet u cant even move from one flag to another on BGs in stealth. u burn full mana to zero in roughly 15 cloaks, while manaregen build deal slightly more damage with an ability to clock indefinitely out of combat.

so, the problem is, that class' gameplay is built around being OUT of combat as much as possible,
while class' sustain is built around being IN combat as much as possible - and they just cannot be combined.
these are literally opposite things. u either forget about cloak forever and get sustain in combat, or u give up on all those things in favor of damage and just slap as much passive regen as possible. atleast thats how i see this class. and not only me, many magblades have already stopped using stealth cloak morph, but i, unfortunately, cant see the point in playing weakest class in the game without its only unique feature.

neferpitou73

I'd like to see some buffs for nightblades in groups. They're not optimal for anything unless you build into crit. They have no useful unique ults and no unique buffs I can't already get from a better place. Sap essence is in a really bad place. Why would I run that over s2w with it's extra execute damage?

DrSlaughtr

I wish leeching/siphoning strikes gave brutality and sorcery. Multiple other classes have inherent access to these buffs. You would be allowing NBs the choice of not using 2H, because hidden blade and venom arrow are not useful for a stealth based class. "Oh here, let me alert you to my presence." This would also mean magblades wouldn't have to rely on degeneration.

Magblades do struggle with damage output because the light passives (if wearing 5+) do not lend as well to burst damage as medium, imo. Of course you can wear more medium pieces, but this wrecks magicka sustain.

Curse of Doylemish can be useful on a magblade because Cripple has a travel time. So you can hit cripple from a distance and immediately wind up your heavy attack. It's sad they nerfed it that way though, as it would be a great alternative to caluurions for ranged builds. After all, the further away you are, the longer it takes caluurions to hit, to the greater chance there is of it being dodged.

Of course they COULD nuke caluurions for NBs as well, but drastically increase our base damage so that we can 1v1 the other classes without relying on a proc set. I greatly miss the days of wearing Stygian and Heartland, so many updates ago. This meant you couldn't just lazily kill people with a damage proc. NBs had to be better. The good ones shined and the bad ones played something else.

But alas, our base damage output is significantly lower than magDKs, templars and necros, while also lacking their defenses. Our entire toolkit is built around crit, and if you fail to crit out of cloak, you're toast. That happens way too often due to lag.

RemoryAzure

and nerfed DK's combustion still gives much more sustain than siphoning strikes in pvp scenarios. not even talking about his ultimate passive.

regarding sorcery, u can run sorcery+intellect+detect potion, but, yet again, other classes can run ccimmunity+intellect+detect.
im going oakensoul next patch so i wont use siphoning strikes at all, but i think this is a nice idea to add sorcery/brutality into it. and maybe reduce it's cost to 0, like warden's version of regen buff?

DrSlaughtr

RemoryAzure wrote: »

and nerfed DK's combustion still gives much more sustain than siphoning strikes in pvp scenarios. not even talking about his ultimate passive.

regarding sorcery, u can run sorcery+intellect+detect potion, but, yet again, other classes can run ccimmunity+intellect+detect.
im going oakensoul next patch so i wont use siphoning strikes at all, but i think this is a nice idea to add sorcery/brutality into it. and maybe reduce it's cost to 0, like warden's version of regen buff?

It's funny because even ZOS says the core weakness of DK is supposed to be sustain and yet they still dwarf NB in this category even after 34 while also doing more damage while also having better defenses and healing.