A plea to ZoS to introduce a proper ELO / Matchmaking system

Dem_kitkats1

Aznox wrote: »

This is off topic, ranking will rate win-rate, that's it, players at the top will have both superior skill and superior gear (and superior "roles", and yes maybe superior "classes", but then again balance can continue happening).

Right...so ranking will have little to do with your actual skill, and more to do with how the balance swings that day? Super skillful, super competitive, much different than now...

Improve the balance, improve the performance, separate DM from Objectives, increase population, increase incentives, redesign the modes. That is how you will see change in the BG environment. If we already have players declaring themselves as top tier players, in top MMR then it's not rank that is the problem. It seems that people just need a greater pool of players to play against. If there was an actual large and diverse population, then I think a competitive ranking system would make a difference and have more meaning then it would now. The only difference you would be ensuring is maybe less weak players on and against your team, but much longer queue times atm.

Aznox

I give up, i just give up.

I want a ranking system based on the ability to consistently perform well as a group of 4 players (premade or solo pick-up) to achieve the already defined main objective of BG : to win the BG match. (DM or Objective), pushing our collective performance further (aka competitiveness, source of many of humanity's greatest achievements).

But i give up.

For every 10 players defending the same idea, 15 are going to come here finding reasons not to, because (mostly for made-up/self-lying reasons) they believe it is against their own interest (aka happiness, something we are all rightly programmed to pursue).

I give up.

I'll go back to my own set of made-up rules (topping DMG stats every BG)

Others will go back to their own set of made-up rules (best personal K/D whatever the consequences for the team)

Others will go back to their own set of made-up excuses (lag, performance, balance, bad luck)

I give up.

Let's all go back to our happy little stone age.

I give up.

YoureWrongImRight

divnyi wrote: »

How does this factor in that some people just spend more time on the game so they have gold everything vs people that are just part time and have epic gear.

It gives them different rating as an outcome of the fight.
Yes, this is the answer to gear question. Always was.
This is fantasy MMO after all.

Should just make a leaderboard of players with the highest peak WD/SP and that can be your leader board, a cookie for whoever spends the most time farming chromium grains. If skill is the defining factor in winning or losing why would anyone be worried about normalized stats in PvP? Other games have far superior systems where gear doesn't transfer into PvP and you don't have an obvious advantage. You'd find more balance implementing that than trying to make an MMR system.

YoureWrongImRight

@Aznox if you wanted to play an actual competitive PvP game, yes, you should probably give up with this one. It will never be that.

Aznox

Aznox wrote: »

Others will go back to their own set of made-up excuses (lag, performance, balance, bad luck)

YoureWrongImRight

Aznox wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Others will go back to their own set of made-up excuses (lag, performance, balance, bad luck)

lol this is what you end up with when you've prioritized pounding new players into the dirt repeatedly, not worried about any sort of balance issues, not fix any of the performance issues (this isn't really a made up excuse, it's just a literal fact), not worried that new players don't find it fun because they don't know what the meta is, they don't have the gear to compete, they don't understand why 4 of them combined can't even bring down 1 guy. There's a laundry list of issues to fix before thinking about any kind of actual ranking system.

Aznox

This is my last answer (last one should have been) because we'll clearly disagree on everything, and this thread and others will never progress as long as we're "debating".

lol this is what you end up with when you've prioritized pounding new players into the dirt repeatedly

Who here is asking for a rework, to be matched with similarly performing opponents? Who is asking for a status quo?

I'm nowhere near the top "mechanically skilled" BG players, yet this happens every day because you are too afraid to vote for a fair matchmaking based on actual performance :

not worried about any sort of balance issues, not fix any of the performance issues

Everyone is (mostly) affected equally by these, nothing unfair here.

new players don't find it fun because they don't know what the meta is, they don't have the gear to compete

That's what I'm saying ! Proper ELO/MMR would have such "clueless" new (or old) players happily fight in tight 490-470-500 matches where any top team would currently go 500-0-0. (and that last part is natural, like any top F1 team with top budget and talent would crush any amateur team).

they don't understand why 4 of them combined can't even bring down 1 guy.

With proper ELO/MMR, this wouldn't happen, players who would start to "get it" would gradually be sent to higher tiers, and they would enjoy the recognition from such a progression, while players not able/willing to progress would be kept in their safe bubble of fairness.

There's a laundry list of issues to fix before thinking about any kind of actual ranking system.

Sorry but "YoureWrongImRight", an actual ranking system being the basis for the matchmaking logic would instantly invalidate most of your laundry list.

My PM are open for any further discussion as I don't want this thread locked.

divnyi

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

a cookie for whoever spends the most time farming chromium grains.

As someone who mostly rolls purple gear (except weapons), your argument doesn't have any grounds.

Also, don't play ranked if you don't want it, what's the big deal?

YoureWrongImRight

You're missing the entire point that the foundation for "Proper ELO" doesn't exist.

As usual, you're wrong, and I'm right.

Aldoss

This catch 22 needs to solved somehow. Can we not have a proper ELO because there's not enough players or do we not have enough players because there's no proper ELO?

It shouldn't be the case that this game pits people in golded out gear and years of experience against newbies.

In the last week, I've had over a dozen teammates enter the BG with 16k hp and get upset that they die instantly. When I see those players on the opposing team, am I to blame that they get 1-shotted, get frustrated, and determine that PvP is dumb and never try again?

Proper ranking systems are not so binary as "win/lose". How did you win? How did you lose? If you lose against a player/team with a significantly higher rank, your score might move down, but not by much at all. If you win against a player/team with a significantly higher rank, then you deserve to have your rank move by a lot.

There are so many opportunities to solve these problems being brought up. If you queue for a solo ranked DM, and in order to speed up the queue time, you get 3 teammates who are leagues below you, then is it unreasonable to think that there might be a way to average out the team score so that if you lose because your 3 teammates feed the opposition, your rank doesn't get affected so much?

Also, who cares if it's not perfect? Who cares that gear matters? Who cares that the meta is constantly changing?

That's what we signed up for! We chose to play this game. Whether there's a rank or not attached to it, you will either win or lose. If you don't want to participate in ranked boards, then don't, but don't come in here and say that the people asking for this don't deserve it as an option because you personally won't like it.

I don't like the card game. I don't have any intention on playing the card game. However, ZOS seems to think that it's worth their investment enough to devote an entire chapter to it. I'm happy that some players are excited for it and I'm not here to destroy their joy. All I want to know is why a card game is getting a seasonal ranked matchmaking system and we're not. I want for ZOS to tell me that they are excited by the prospect of an ELO and it was easier to attach it to a brand new system rather than designing it for something that is already established. Tell me ANYTHING.

Tell me that BGs were always intended and will always be the casual PvP outlet for people that don't want to go to Cyro or IC. Ideally, give me hope that you (ZOS) see value in the product you've invested millions of dollars into developing and have plans to bring a new, competitive small scale arena option that solves this. It's one thing to have wanted this option, but it never existed anywhere in the game, so silence was kind of "meh". It's another to want it, ask for it, and then it comes to life, but for a completely different product. If ZOS didn't think an ELO was valuable, it wouldn't exist at all. Cats out of the bag. It exists.

ZOS has a real mismanagement situation on their hands here. A vast minority of players are happy with their BG experience right now. Shouldn't casual players want to be freed from the tyranny of the sweaty tryhards? Shouldn't sweaty tryhards have somewhere to go to further invest into this game whether it be as guild leaders, content creators, or otherwise social investors into the PvP ecosystem?

Dem_kitkats1

Aznox wrote: »

I'll go back to my own set of made-up rules (topping DMG stats every BG)

Others will go back to their own set of made-up rules (best personal K/D whatever the consequences for the team)

Others will go back to their own set of made-up excuses (lag, performance, balance, bad luck)

I give up.

Let's all go back to our happy little stone age.

From what I've seen you've shown no interest in actually progressing the community as a whole. Seems like you're perfectly fine with the stone age, with class and gear imbalances, performance, mode designs, widening skill gaps all being non-issues for you. Anyone suggesting anything else just needs to "git gud", therefore should be discredited, even though new/casual players are part of the community and should have some imput. Seems like the stone age is fine as long as you get recognition for feeding into it.

Ominer

Gear is not and never will be the deciding factor in the majority of fights in this game. It's been shown time and time again that good players can enter bgs and do well on what would be considered terrible gear.

If you don't have access to gear that is being worn by players at higher ranks than you and it impacts your performance, then ZOS could use this as a basis for improving other sets (that you have on), limiting the gap between 'meta' and other builds. Or you just don't have the skill to build appropriately and therefore wouldn't deserve to be at a higher rank anyway.

An Elo system could serve as a tool to collate data on overperforming class and gear imbalances. There are addons available now that track performance in BGs from damage dealt, damage tanked, healing done, kills / death, medal score and win / loss from the current API. Why couldn't this be incorporated directly into a publicly available leaderboard that feeds a ranked system.

Step 1: Improve battleground rewards (transmute crystals in line with daily rnd as a start) > more players doing bgs

Step 2: With improved player pool look to establish a leaderboard & ranked system.

Step 3: Use Elo and leaderboard to determine what classes and gear people in top / bottom ranks are running and adjust accordingly.

@Dem_kitkats1 Aznox is one of the best BG players on PC EU and has a significant interest in improving BGs.

I'll say it again, people who can make valuable input into improving the game (e.g. people who discover the meta, who understand class balances) are sick of coming to this forum to have to constantly fight every discussion out with players who clearly have little to no idea what they're talking about.

You talk about widening skill gaps but I’d argue the skill gap from average to top tier players has only been getting narrower. With the removal of animation cancelling, top players leaving due to burnout with performance, shifts in the meta & balance etc. Also, skill gap wouldn't be an issue with a ranked system as you'd be fighting similarly skilled players so your statement is pointless. New / casual players would only benefit as they'd stop getting stomped everytime they tried to engage in pvp.

WordsOfPower

If you want to see a video that explains an MMR system that would actually work, please quote this post with the response "Yes please"

YoureWrongImRight

@Ominer If you honestly think that gear doesn't have significant impact on peoples performance then you are seriously delusional.

If I have a significant stat advantage I will literally beat you 100% of the time. I hit harder, heal myself for more, have more health, have more sustain, you will never win.

The only time this isn't the deciding factor is when people have no idea what they're doing.

You make it sound as if you could throw these "god tier players" in absolute trash gear that does not work with their skill build at all and they would still do well. Which is obviously completely untrue.

If all of a sudden you hit for half as much and you cannot burst your opponent as quickly you will basically never kill anyone. If they are constantly running out of resources due to sustain issues and cannot dodge, block, use skills then what can they do? The answer is nothing. The answer is they die to someone who is arguably "worse" than them.

How does it prove anything that you are better or worse when someone enters a confrontation with a stat advantage that can be advanced by participating in activities outside that arena?

Because it's not just gear sets we're talking about here, new characters don't have access to the same skills, the same passives. They might not have mages guild, fighters guild or undaunted skill lines. They can be seriously handicapped in basically every sense in terms of skill selecting outside of just raw stats from gear, upgrading that gear, proper traits, prismatic glyphs.

If I slap you in all trash overland drops with training traits and magicka glyphs on a stam character you will be decimated 100% of the time... period.

WordsOfPower

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Because it's not just gear sets we're talking about here, new characters don't have access to the same skills, the same passives.

You do realise that it's their decision whether to collect a few more Skyshards or go into the BG unprepared, right?

If I slap you in all trash overland drops with training traits and magicka glyphs on a stam character you will be decimated 100% of the time... period.

Gear does not maketh the man. As a B Tier player that tries lots of combinations of class and build, I can honestly say that when I'm on one that does not suit my playstyle or I'm struggling to get to work, I get owned, even in all Gold gear that other players use to great advantage.

[snip]

Thankfully, help is at hand. @TheRealGodzilla is working hard to make a PvP Academy, as we speak

[edited for baiting]

YoureWrongImRight

WordsOfPower wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Because it's not just gear sets we're talking about here, new characters don't have access to the same skills, the same passives.

You do realise that it's their decision whether to collect a few more Skyshards or go into the BG unprepared, right?

If I slap you in all trash overland drops with training traits and magicka glyphs on a stam character you will be decimated 100% of the time... period.

Gear does not maketh the man. As a B Tier player that tries lots of combinations of class and build, I can honestly say that when I'm on one that does not suit my playstyle or I'm struggling to get to work, I get owned, even in all Gold gear that other players use to great advantage.

[snip]

Thankfully, help is at hand. @TheRealGodzilla is working hard to make a PvP Academy, as we speak

[edited for baiting]

So you are saying that they are choosing to go in "unprepared", like they should invest more time into their character before trying to fight anyone. But then at the same time those things don't make the man and they don't decide the outcome?

You are basically just highlighting my point, I change your gear and you get owned, it has literally nothing to do with your skill. If you're doing the exact same combo and suddenly it's hitting for half as much damage because your gear sucks, then you suck. That's it, period.

If I cut your weapon damage by 30-50% and cut your health down to 20k you will die instantly basically every time.

Whole point is that there's no value in trying to rank something that is not normalized, stats should be equal, proc sets should be removed, all players should have access to all the possible skills for their class and every other skill line that would be available to them.

Players should all have access to the same skills and have stats that are purely determined by your class when you enter the BG. Otherwise all you're doing is ranking builds.

divnyi

Building right is a skill.
/thread

Cuddlypuff

Of course gear and class is a huge deal. But come on, there's a noticeable skill difference even between players with identical meta builds. I still think you need to remove the whole 3 way fight concept if you even want to start thinking about a workable MMR/ELO system for BGs.

YoureWrongImRight

divnyi wrote: »

Building right is a skill.
/thread

lol copying some guys build from Youtube is a skill now?

Aldoss

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Because it's not just gear sets we're talking about here, new characters don't have access to the same skills, the same passives.

You do realise that it's their decision whether to collect a few more Skyshards or go into the BG unprepared, right?

If I slap you in all trash overland drops with training traits and magicka glyphs on a stam character you will be decimated 100% of the time... period.

Gear does not maketh the man. As a B Tier player that tries lots of combinations of class and build, I can honestly say that when I'm on one that does not suit my playstyle or I'm struggling to get to work, I get owned, even in all Gold gear that other players use to great advantage.

[snip]

Thankfully, help is at hand. @TheRealGodzilla is working hard to make a PvP Academy, as we speak

[edited for baiting]

So you are saying that they are choosing to go in "unprepared", like they should invest more time into their character before trying to fight anyone. But then at the same time those things don't make the man and they don't decide the outcome?

You are basically just highlighting my point, I change your gear and you get owned, it has literally nothing to do with your skill. If you're doing the exact same combo and suddenly it's hitting for half as much damage because your gear sucks, then you suck. That's it, period.

If I cut your weapon damage by 30-50% and cut your health down to 20k you will die instantly basically every time.

Whole point is that there's no value in trying to rank something that is not normalized, stats should be equal, proc sets should be removed, all players should have access to all the possible skills for their class and every other skill line that would be available to them.

Players should all have access to the same skills and have stats that are purely determined by your class when you enter the BG. Otherwise all you're doing is ranking builds.

All players have the equal choice to enter a BG prepared or not. There are so many builds out there that utilize gear sets 100% accessible to all players, even base game non ESO+ players. My primary toon currently is using one that requires no chapters, no mythic, and no dlcs. It's not meta by any means, but it's still competitive.

There's every point in giving the PvP community a ranked ladder to spur competition, boost creativity, and boost the PvP ecosystem. Arguing against it by saying that this game isn't standardized is like saying there's no point in ranking the Olympics because not all humans have the same genetics.

We choose to play a game that has the monetization structure it has. We choose to play a game that has a constantly evolving meta. We choose to play a game that comes with time investment into our characters, rather than picking from pre-determined ones every match.

This game is already competitive in the sense that no one intends on their character dying in a match up. All we're asking for is a system that tries to show some form of progression for this competition. Some way of tracking where you, your toon, or your chosen build stands within the meta.

Yes, meta chasers will likely top the ladder each season. How is that different from any other game that works like this?

YoureWrongImRight

@Aldoss Whole point is that any other game that works like this doesn't have ranks because they wouldn't mean anything. They have a similar structure to what already exists, you just load in and smash people and that's it, because it's incapable of actually being more competitive than that in its current state.

I agree, you're choosing to play a game that incorporates all these things, and for that reason you're choosing to play a game that is non competitive.

We can even use your real life Olympic example, this is a combat sport is it not? Do we ask lightweights to fight heavyweights and middleweights? No we don't. We normalize the stats and have them be close in size and have weight classes. As it sits right now we're asking lightweights to fight heavyweights due to their stats advantage. It's nor fair from the beginning and therefore a non competitive activity.

What's the first thing you think when you walk up to someone and dumpster them in 2 hits. You say to yourself. WOW that guy is really squishy. You don't think, WOW that guy really sucks, because you know it has nothing to do with any kind of skill on whether or not somebody can kill you in 2 hits. They just can and that's just the reality. Guaranteed if some "god tier" player switches gear with that guy, their experience will be the same. People will walk up to them and kill them in 2 hits every single time. Does that mean he can right away automatically go compete with other people with good builds? No, because now skill actually becomes a factor being that those players have equally good stats. When stats are equal, or at least reasonably equal is when skill is the determining factor of victory.

The first thing you see anyone respond with when people are complaining about PvP is "what sets are you running?", "what food are you running?". Because they know perfectly well that stats are the leading factor in any confrontation.

Seems to me that people just want some ranking system so they screenshot an arbitrary leaderboard ranking to post it here like they love to do with their BG k/d/a. But any suggestion to actually make things an equal playing field, normalize stats, normalize skills, and actually make that rank matter is terrifying. As with all my suggestions, people who are truly skilled should not be concerned with them, as they'll just rise to the top like they always do. They are god tier after all.

taugrim

mmtaniac wrote: »

Less skilled players can't compete with good players, on objectives this kind of thing not exist , you can just ignore to hard fights and do objective. Weak players on objective can still be useful.

Eh, weak players still get dunked on in flag and land grab games. It's just not as apparent as some diehard PVP players ignore objectives. But a lot of them, including me, don't ignore objectives, we just try to kill people around them.

Aldoss

@YoureWrongImRight I like the analogy to combat sports, but I'm shocked that you missed the obvious parallel even though you started down the track:

"As it sits right now we're asking lightweights to fight heavyweights due to their stats advantage. It's nor fair from the beginning and therefore a non competitive activity."

If sifting and ranking weren't effective, no sport would do it. At one point, boxing didn't have weight classes at all and pretty much only heavyweights were competitive. It was stale and boring and slowly new divisions and classes were created to spur competition. By your synopsis, boxing was a non competitive sport and people should have just accepted it and moved on and tried to find enjoyment in it. Lucky for.boxing, they had a genius idea to start ranking and matching opponents against those that were similarly weighted and similarly skilled. No one wants to watch a heavyweight one shot a lightweight in the first 5 seconds and call it a championship match.

That's what we're here talking about. This game could be competitive. It's apparent you don't think so, and while I appreciate you sharing your opinion, your argument isn't convincing me to stop asking ZOS for this.

Since I think this discussion is important, here's my perspective on your supposition of a pvper.

When I see someone with 16k hp, I do indeed say, "wow they're squishy" and I do not jump to "wow, they suck". I've been pleasantly surprised numerous times with teammates who join with 21k hp and I sigh, only to see these teammates dish out massive damage and decent survivability because they happen to know their play style so well. Those instances are few, and typically a teammate with 20k hp will prove to be useless.

Swapping gear alone does nothing for your argument. This game is huge and the combat is extremely complex. A "God tier" player is not always God tier on every class. However, give that player a short time frame to have them learn the class, learn the gear and the combat interactions with it, they will 100% outperform the inexperienced player who was originally wearing it.

Giving an inexperienced player golded gear doesn't level the playing field in the way you're suggesting. Armor can be penetrated and anyone of low experience can be exploited unto a burst combo and die without knowing what happened.

Just today I had a teammate who joined on a stamblade who didn't have a self heal slotted. They even had 27k hp, but when I asked why they were running around at 50% hp for way too long, they didn't know what vigor or rally were. They weren't using offering because "it was a magicka ability and they're stamina"..

There are clear classes/tiers at play here:
- Skill (low, medium, high)
- Build quality (poor, niche, solid)
- Class (under performing, mid tier, meta)

This game is not just about one of those. It's all of them. I can't agree to asking ZOS to standardize the BG experience by standardizing gear because they can barely push out content patches without massive and alarming bugs. There's no way we'll see any feature like the one you're suggesting within the needy 5 years.

Standardization in this game already exists. If you want to use rallying cry because it's part of many meta builds right now, go buy it or farm it. It's part of the game. If you want to run olorime on your build, but you don't have Summerset, whoops, guess you'll have to find an alternative, which absolutely exists.

Is a boxing match unfair because one opponent had the funds to train under the world's best boxing coach and the other was self taught? Should all boxing matches be suspended until all competitiors are able to secure the same amount of training hours with the world's too coach?

Even chess is unfair by these means. If being competitive is important to you, you will find a way to progress your ability to compete. ZOS gives all players this opportunity already.

ZOS just published and announced a seasonal ranked ladder... For a card game. It exists. They clearly think it's useful enough to try for the first time ever.

I want it for BGs. I want them to expand it. We deserve it, maybe more than a card game, but oh well. I'm not here to debate if we should have one at all. I, and numerous other are here, voicing our wishes to ZOS that we want it for BGs, now more than ever, because they published it... Just not for a system where we think it is better placed.

Ominer

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

@Ominer If you honestly think that gear doesn't have significant impact on peoples performance then you are seriously delusional.

If I have a significant stat advantage I will literally beat you 100% of the time. I hit harder, heal myself for more, have more health, have more sustain, you will never win.

The only time this isn't the deciding factor is when people have no idea what they're doing.

You make it sound as if you could throw these "god tier players" in absolute trash gear that does not work with their skill build at all and they would still do well. Which is obviously completely untrue.

I've been 1vXing players on NA greyhost with 260cp, blue gear and a level 48 caluurions legacy greatsword. For someone with that name you're wrong an incredible amount of the time. You've already been told building correctly is a skill / gear isn't the be all and end all of fights. Anything you've written as a counter argument since then is also wrong / adds nothing to what you've said previously.

You're a perfect example of what's wrong with this forum, an absolute confidence that you know what you're talking about while not lol.

'Because it's not just gear sets we're talking about here, new characters don't have access to the same skills, the same passives. They might not have mages guild, fighters guild or undaunted skill lines. They can be seriously handicapped in basically every sense in terms of skill selecting outside of just raw stats from gear, upgrading that gear, proper traits, prismatic glyphs.'

Realistically, why would any new character expect to hit top rank in anything? You aren't entitled to success without putting the effort in to learn the game, farm gear and level basic skills nor should you be.

WordsOfPower

The two posts above are absolutely spot on

YoureWrongImRight

you guys must be right, ESO is the pinnacle of competitive PvP and all that's required is a ranking system to show who's the best. That's why the population in PvP has been in steady decline for a long period, game as a whole is probably dying, people are constantly complaining about how bad it is everywhere you look.

Cannot possibly have anything to do with game mechanics, non competitive advantages that drive new players away, it even drives the old players away.

Your examples really don't prove anything as if I were to come across you (or literally anyone else who isn't terrible at the game) you would have been killed instantly.

If you can't see how blatant stat advantages make a game non competitive then there's really no helping you. If you actually wanted the game to not die and have an actual PvP community you'd be more interested in actually fixing the issues and less about what arbitrary rank people can see on a leaderboard.

Regardless of any comparison you want to make to actual sports about training etc, the equipment in any of these activities is.... you guessed it... standardized.

Ominer

I've split your points up nice and easy for you to read:

1. (Wrong) Noone said ESO is the pinnacle of competitive pvp. Making suggestions in how it can be improved is part of the purpose of the forum.

2. (Mostly wrong) The steady decline of pvp population is generally considered to be due to decline is server performance. Although people may leave because of shifts in meta / not being able to build correctly, i'd guess the vast majority are performance related.

3. (Wrong) I have more examples, i've also been killing people in the stormhaven (the duel area on NA) on that build, there's also examples available online of people winning duels against good players while not having gear on (just weapons and jewellery). How can this be possible at such a stat disadvantage??????? When CPs got reset a patch or two ago, I didn't realise for a while and was also winning duels in alikr on EU without any slotted. How can this be possible at such a huge stat disadvantage???????

4. (Wrong) Noone on this thread ever said they want ZOS to drop everything and implement an elo system ignoring other ingame issues. It's just a suggestion for them to reconsider moving forward.

5. (Irrelevant + Bad) As of March 2021 @cyclonus11 informed us there are 481 item sets available in game. What you're saying is you want to remove the skill of theorycrafting builds in favour of standardised set ups. This is an awful suggestion as players have different playstyles on classes that can't be transferred around cookiecutter standardised builds. This also removes a huge part of what players love about this game, the variation and testing builds.

WordsOfPower

It seems he thinks it's an unfair game. There is literally no set available that another player can't have. The most difficult to obtain sets are skill gated not paywalled (Perfected Vateshran, etc).

If you don't recognise that the variety of builds is the best thing about ESO PvP, then why are you even on a forum discussing it? (besides your crusade to have us all wearing Rubedite)

Dem_kitkats1

Ominer wrote: »

I'll say it again, people who can make valuable input into improving the game (e.g. people who discover the meta, who understand class balances) are sick of coming to this forum to have to constantly fight every discussion out with players who clearly have little to no idea what they're talking about.

You talk about widening skill gaps but I’d argue the skill gap from average to top tier players has only been getting narrower. With the removal of animation cancelling, top players leaving due to burnout with performance, shifts in the meta & balance etc. Also, skill gap wouldn't be an issue with a ranked system as you'd be fighting similarly skilled players so your statement is pointless. New / casual players would only benefit as they'd stop getting stomped everytime they tried to engage in pvp.

Yes I understand the importance in having the input of vet players, sure. But there needs to be more constructive dialogue than, "if you disagree with me, you clearly don't understand the game, you are dumb, git gud". I don't care how skilled you are. If there is to be the implementation of a competitive ranking system, players should be questioning how it would work, and reward players who are not simply DD designed. The skill gap isn't widening? Clearly that's not the case with the K/D/A scores being posted on these forums. The exiting of top tier players is only decreasing the pool that other vet players have of people to compete against, the disparity between players is still evidently there.

Yes, I agree that because of the learning curve, day 1 players should not be pitted against the sweaty vets, but there needs to be changes before it could be considered competitive. I actually think that the current MMR would be working if there was the population to support it. Because it does not, I agree, it needs to be updated. MMR should also be account based, not character based, with the games current state.

Aldoss wrote: »

There's every point in giving the PvP community a ranked ladder to spur competition, boost creativity, and boost the PvP ecosystem. Arguing against it by saying that this game isn't standardized is like saying there's no point in ranking the Olympics because not all humans have the same genetics.

All Olympic sports have rules, regulations, standardized equipment in order to prevent players from having some kind of advantage over their opponents? The rankings in the Olympic are purely based on your own raw skill, and nothing else? BGs is like competitive archery, only amongst the competitors you have people pulling up with rifles and scopes, saying they don't have much of an advantage.

Ominer wrote: »

I've been 1vXing players on NA greyhost with 260cp, blue gear and a level 48 caluurions legacy greatsword. For someone with that name you're wrong an incredible amount of the time. You've already been told building correctly is a skill / gear isn't the be all and end all of fights. Anything you've written as a counter argument since then is also wrong / adds nothing to what you've said previously.

1vXing who though? Probably inexperienced players, who are also wearing crap gear. Most vets won't even bother with you, and a min maxed ball group would've slaughtered you. Caluurions is pretty meta is it not? Could you have achieved the same performance in some gear you got from Fungal Grotto? Doubtful.

WordsOfPower wrote: »

It seems he thinks it's an unfair game. There is literally no set available that another player can't have. The most difficult to obtain sets are skill gated not paywalled (Perfected Vateshran, etc).

If you don't recognise that the variety of builds is the best thing about ESO PvP, then why are you even on a forum discussing it? (besides your crusade to have us all wearing Rubedite)

Gear isn't balanced for only BGs? So sets meant for large scale PvP are pretty game breaking in small scale PvP. It's because of the introduction of certain gear, that many players left the game, or did we forget the impact that Hrothgar, DC, Plaguebreak had on the community when they were first introduced? Sets meant for Cyro are fair in BGs?

Yes through skill and knowledge you can kill inexperienced/bad players, however, against anyone else who also has knowledge of the game, and actually PvPs regularly, you cannot compete without a sound build. You cannot in the same breath say that buildcrafting is skill, and then say it makes no impact. If build and gear meant little, then buildcrafting wouldn't be a skill to begin with. Players have left because the fundamentals of the game are flawed, and now you want to implement a ranking system on top of them saying that it's fair. A competitive ranking system only serves those who are already performing well, but does not help the issues that drove many players away to begin with.

Ominer

@Dem_kitkats1 was waiting for you to also post.

'Yes I understand the importance in having the input of vet players, sure. But there needs to be more constructive dialogue than, "if you disagree with me, you clearly don't understand the game, you are dumb, git gud".'

Never said this, don't think that's the way it should be but why do i have to write another post countering the points you've just repeated again from others.

'The skill gap isn't widening? Clearly that's not the case with the K/D/A scores being posted on these forums. The exiting of top tier players is only decreasing the pool that other vet players have of people to compete against, the disparity between players is still evidently there.'

Kinda get what you're saying less vet players mean newer players have to face vets more often. It's a shame but as above, improve rewards and boost attractiveness of battlegrounds to boost playerbase, reducing this. Also, i can show you screenshots from years ago with high KDA so not sure why you think that's changed.

'All Olympic sports have rules, regulations, standardized equipment in order to prevent players from having some kind of advantage over their opponents? The rankings in the Olympic are purely based on your own raw skill, and nothing else? BGs is like competitive archery, only amongst the competitors you have people pulling up with rifles and scopes, saying they don't have much of an advantage.'

This would be the case if the sport was to just hit a target at a distance, if i designed and built a rifle with a scope and you rolled up to compete with a bow and arrow that's on you. Also, if i can barely shoot a rifle and you're cracked at archery you could still win.

'1vXing who though? Probably inexperienced players, who are also wearing crap gear. Most vets won't even bother with you, and a min maxed ball group would've slaughtered you. Caluurions is pretty meta is it not? Could you have achieved the same performance in some gear you got from Fungal Grotto? Doubtful.'

Most 1vX's are against inexperienced players, what's your point? Because my point was that if I can do it even with low cp and bad gear it isn't the hindrance you're making it out to be. Therefore proving that gear and stats aren't always the deciding factor. Also, if you read my other post, I gave an example of people winning duels against good players while not wearing gear and just using weapons and jewellery. And anyone gets rolled by a co-ordinated ball group as a solo players so what's your point? Caluurions is pretty meta, but a level 48 greatsword isn't obviously???? So again what's your point?

'Hrothgar, DC, Plaguebreak had on the community when they were first introduced? Set meant for Cyro are fair in BGs?'

Hrothgar and DC were both massivly bugged when they were introduced, none of them are gamebreaking in BGs anymore, other than DC pull being annoying sometimes.

Again, not really added much with your post short of repeating what others have said but everyone's entitled to their own input on the forums.