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Racial Passives Morphs
Ippokrates
✭✭✭✭✭
I don't want to be missunderstood: we are in good position. Racial passives in terms of DPS were never so close as now.
Having said that, it still bothers me that the passive system we have now is rather rudimentary and not only limit us in terms of mechanical development but also RPG, because we are keeping those stereotypical view on races. What sure, works in games like Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim, but in ESO, where we had opportunity to learn how deeply spiritual (and magical
) Bosmers are, and that in Breton society there is probably more chivalry than mages, it works rather poor.
So below I want to offer some most basic options to start the discussion. Hopefully all interested will enjoy, this way of another
Argonian Skills
1. Amphibian - Increases your experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%. Increases your swimming speed by 50%.
2. Life Mender III - Increases your healing done by 6%. - add morph:
2.1 Defiler - Increase your DoT by 5%.
3, Argonian Resistance III - Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310.
4. Resourceful III - Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1000. When you drink a potion, you restore 3125 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. Add an equivalent of liquid efficiency for poisons or bonus to poison dmg/time.
Breton Skills
1. Opportunist - Increases your experience gain with the Light Armor skill line by 15%. Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1%.
2. Gift of Magnus III - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000. - add morph:
2.1 Chivalric Heritage - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
3. Spell Attunement III - Increases your Spell Resistance by 2310. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed. Increases your Magicka Recovery by 130. - add morph:
3.1 Chivalric Training - Increases your Spell Resistance by 2310. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed. Increases your Stamina Recovery by 130.
4. Magicka Mastery III - Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%. - add morph:
4.1 Chivalric Mastery - Reduces the Stamina cost of your abilities by 7%.
Dark Elf Skills
1. Ashlander - Increases your experience gain with the Dual Wield skill line by 15%. Reduces your damage taken from environmental lava by 50%.
2. Dynamic III - Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1910.
3. Resist Flame III - Increases your Flame Resistance by 4620.
4. Ruination III - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258. - add morphs:
4.1 - Forester Mastery - 5% to poison damage.
4.2 - Shadow of Red Mountain - 5% to fire damage.
High Elf Skills
1. Highborn - Increases your experience gain with the Destruction Staff skill line by 15%. Increases your experience gained by 1%.
2. Spell Recharge III - When you activate an ability, you restore 625 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lowest. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. When you are using an ability with a channel or cast time, you take 5% less damage.
3. Syrabane's Boon III - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000. - add morph:
3.1 Phynaster's Spirit - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
Elemental Talent III - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.
Imperial Skills
1. Diplomat - Increases your experience gain with the One Hand and Shield skill line by 15%. Increases your gold gained by 1%
2. Tough III - Increases your Max Health by 2000.
3. Imperial Mettle III - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000. - add morph:
3.1 Academic Background - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
4. Red Diamond III - Reduces the cost of all your abilities by 6%.
Khajiit Skills
1. Cutpurse - Increases your experience gain with the Medium Armor skill line by 15%. Increases your chance to successfully pickpocket by 5%.
2. Robustness III - Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka Recovery by 85.
3. Lunar Blessings III - Increase your Maximum Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 915.
4. Feline Ambush III - Increases your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 12%. Decreases your detection radius in Stealth by 3 meters. - add morph:
4.1 Feline Acrobat - Gives a 5/10% change to dodge attack every 1 second.
Nord Skills
1. Reveler - Increases your experience gain with the Two Handed skill line by 15%. Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes.
2. Resist Frost III - Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Frost Resistance by 4620.
3. Stalwart III - Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds. - add morph:
3.1. Julianos's Chosen - Increases your Max Magicka by 1500. When you are doing damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
4. Rugged III - Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 2600.
Orc Skills
1. Craftsman - Increases your experience gain with the Heavy Armor skill line by 15%. Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10%.
2. Brawny III - Increases your Max Stamina by 1000. - add morph:
2.1 Weakling - Increases your Max Magicka by 1000
3. Unflinching Rage III - Increases your Max Health by 1000. When you deal damage, you heal for 2125 Health. This can occur once every 4 seconds.
4. Swift Warrior III - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258. Reduces the cost of Sprint by 12% and increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 10%.
Redguard Skills
1. Wayfarer - Increases your experience gain with the One Hand and Shield skill line by 15%. Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes.
2. Martial Training III - Reduces the cost of your weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.
3. Conditioning III - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000. - add morph:
3.1 Outcast - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
4. Adrenaline Rush III - When you deal damage, you restore 1005 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds. - add morph:
4.1 Heritage of Sword-Singers - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.
Wood Elf Skills
1. Acrobat - Increases your experience gain with the Bow skill line by 15%. Decreases your fall damage taken by 10%.
2. Hunter's Eye III - Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 5% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 950.
3. Y'ffre's Endurance III - Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258. - add morph:
3.1 Y'ffre's Blessing - Increases your Magicka Recovery by 258.
4. Resist Affliction III - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310. - add morph:
4.1 Spinner's Acolyte - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310.
Having said that, it still bothers me that the passive system we have now is rather rudimentary and not only limit us in terms of mechanical development but also RPG, because we are keeping those stereotypical view on races. What sure, works in games like Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim, but in ESO, where we had opportunity to learn how deeply spiritual (and magical
) Bosmers are, and that in Breton society there is probably more chivalry than mages, it works rather poor.So below I want to offer some most basic options to start the discussion. Hopefully all interested will enjoy, this way of another
Argonian Skills
1. Amphibian - Increases your experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%. Increases your swimming speed by 50%.
2. Life Mender III - Increases your healing done by 6%. - add morph:
2.1 Defiler - Increase your DoT by 5%.
3, Argonian Resistance III - Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310.
4. Resourceful III - Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1000. When you drink a potion, you restore 3125 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. Add an equivalent of liquid efficiency for poisons or bonus to poison dmg/time.
Breton Skills
1. Opportunist - Increases your experience gain with the Light Armor skill line by 15%. Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1%.
2. Gift of Magnus III - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000. - add morph:
2.1 Chivalric Heritage - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
3. Spell Attunement III - Increases your Spell Resistance by 2310. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed. Increases your Magicka Recovery by 130. - add morph:
3.1 Chivalric Training - Increases your Spell Resistance by 2310. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed. Increases your Stamina Recovery by 130.
4. Magicka Mastery III - Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%. - add morph:
4.1 Chivalric Mastery - Reduces the Stamina cost of your abilities by 7%.
Dark Elf Skills
1. Ashlander - Increases your experience gain with the Dual Wield skill line by 15%. Reduces your damage taken from environmental lava by 50%.
2. Dynamic III - Increases your Max Magicka and Max Stamina by 1910.
3. Resist Flame III - Increases your Flame Resistance by 4620.
4. Ruination III - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258. - add morphs:
4.1 - Forester Mastery - 5% to poison damage.
4.2 - Shadow of Red Mountain - 5% to fire damage.
High Elf Skills
1. Highborn - Increases your experience gain with the Destruction Staff skill line by 15%. Increases your experience gained by 1%.
2. Spell Recharge III - When you activate an ability, you restore 625 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lowest. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. When you are using an ability with a channel or cast time, you take 5% less damage.
3. Syrabane's Boon III - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000. - add morph:
3.1 Phynaster's Spirit - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
Elemental Talent III - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.
Imperial Skills
1. Diplomat - Increases your experience gain with the One Hand and Shield skill line by 15%. Increases your gold gained by 1%
2. Tough III - Increases your Max Health by 2000.
3. Imperial Mettle III - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000. - add morph:
3.1 Academic Background - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
4. Red Diamond III - Reduces the cost of all your abilities by 6%.
Khajiit Skills
1. Cutpurse - Increases your experience gain with the Medium Armor skill line by 15%. Increases your chance to successfully pickpocket by 5%.
2. Robustness III - Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka Recovery by 85.
3. Lunar Blessings III - Increase your Maximum Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 915.
4. Feline Ambush III - Increases your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 12%. Decreases your detection radius in Stealth by 3 meters. - add morph:
4.1 Feline Acrobat - Gives a 5/10% change to dodge attack every 1 second.
Nord Skills
1. Reveler - Increases your experience gain with the Two Handed skill line by 15%. Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes.
2. Resist Frost III - Increases your Max Health by 1000 and Frost Resistance by 4620.
3. Stalwart III - Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds. - add morph:
3.1. Julianos's Chosen - Increases your Max Magicka by 1500. When you are doing damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
4. Rugged III - Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 2600.
Orc Skills
1. Craftsman - Increases your experience gain with the Heavy Armor skill line by 15%. Increases your crafting inspiration gained by 10%.
2. Brawny III - Increases your Max Stamina by 1000. - add morph:
2.1 Weakling - Increases your Max Magicka by 1000
3. Unflinching Rage III - Increases your Max Health by 1000. When you deal damage, you heal for 2125 Health. This can occur once every 4 seconds.
4. Swift Warrior III - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258. Reduces the cost of Sprint by 12% and increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 10%.
Redguard Skills
1. Wayfarer - Increases your experience gain with the One Hand and Shield skill line by 15%. Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes.
2. Martial Training III - Reduces the cost of your weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.
3. Conditioning III - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000. - add morph:
3.1 Outcast - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
4. Adrenaline Rush III - When you deal damage, you restore 1005 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds. - add morph:
4.1 Heritage of Sword-Singers - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.
Wood Elf Skills
1. Acrobat - Increases your experience gain with the Bow skill line by 15%. Decreases your fall damage taken by 10%.
2. Hunter's Eye III - Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 5% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 950.
3. Y'ffre's Endurance III - Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258. - add morph:
3.1 Y'ffre's Blessing - Increases your Magicka Recovery by 258.
4. Resist Affliction III - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310. - add morph:
4.1 Spinner's Acolyte - Increases your Max Magicka by 2000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310.
8
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These seem neat! The only thing I'd suggest is swap the name of the Nord passive Julianos's Chosen to Jhunal's Chosen.1 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Khajiit just became pvp meta. Remember when evade was what 15% and everyone ran it.PvP needs more love.1 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Khajiit just became pvp meta. Remember when evade was what 15% and everyone ran it.
Well, the idea is to give some alternative to crit dmg, because crit dmg not always works - especially when you are tanking or going pvp.
This dodge seems useful and lorewise but surely needs balancing 0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bosmers need stealth, but beyond that I am fine with this.
Damn skippy. If they ain't stealthy they ain't Bosmer.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.4 -
FluffWit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Expected to hate this but you may be on to something. Simply letting us switch magic ones to stamina and vice versa would be fun and probably not op.
Edited by FluffWit on November 11, 2021 12:16AM3 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Feels overcomplicated even if it's just a morph or two per race. I don't think we should treat racial passives differently than other passives. Just keep it simple.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Feels overcomplicated even if it's just a morph or two per race. I don't think we should treat racial passives differently than other passives. Just keep it simple.
Sorry, but this game is kinda complicated and showed proposals are probably clearer than character screen of our hero, especially for new players
Plus remember that sure, passives might be passive ^^ but many of them correlate with number of active skills that define their efficiency: NB, Sorc, Warden, Necro, FG or MG have this solution, so you already have certain dynamic in them.Edited by Ippokrates on November 11, 2021 12:08AM1 -
dinokstrunz✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the idea. That khajiit suggestion lol, would be bonkers OP.Edited by dinokstrunz on November 11, 2021 12:28AM1 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭dinokstrunz wrote: »I like the idea. That khajiit suggestion lol, would be bonkers OP.
IMHO it could be... substantial as long it will depends of RNG - to compensate for risky game style 0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Feels overcomplicated even if it's just a morph or two per race. I don't think we should treat racial passives differently than other passives. Just keep it simple.
Sorry, but this game is kinda complicated and showed proposals are probably clearer than character screen of our hero, especially for new players
Plus remember that sure, passives might be passive ^^ but many of them correlate with number of active skills that define their efficiency: NB, Sorc, Warden, Necro, FG or MG have this solution, so you already have certain dynamic in them.
Yes, but what is the reason you are adding these morphs here? You want more hybridization and less one-trick ponies. So why not make those passives like that from the get go? Why the morphs? We are already talking about changing racials so ... might as well change them to be more hybrid/useful/unique from the get go. There is no lore accuracy left to be sacrificed here anyway and the whole "uniqueness" aspect is also gone because none of these passive actually still impact gameplay in any meaningful way while everyone is hybrid just like everyone else.
I don't mind interesting passives like the liquid efficiency for Argonians and your suggestions are fine balance-wise, but I don't see why this would be fixed through racial passive morphs. What sense does that make? Other than Argonians, what race morphs to gain new racial abilities within a lifespan? At this rate I would prefer to have no racial passives at all and us getting to choose the passives we want without tying them to race. And we all know Redguard and Bosmer sustain don't actually help you in PvE like the damage passives do, so why beat around the bush and add a morph that is objectively superior? Just replace it with the damage. Don't be afraid to trample over the old passives when trying to make something new - they have already been trampled.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Feels overcomplicated even if it's just a morph or two per race. I don't think we should treat racial passives differently than other passives. Just keep it simple.
Sorry, but this game is kinda complicated and showed proposals are probably clearer than character screen of our hero, especially for new players
Plus remember that sure, passives might be passive ^^ but many of them correlate with number of active skills that define their efficiency: NB, Sorc, Warden, Necro, FG or MG have this solution, so you already have certain dynamic in them.
Yes, but what is the reason you are adding these morphs here? You want more hybridization and less one-trick ponies. So why not make those passives like that from the get go? Why the morphs? We are already talking about changing racials so ... might as well change them to be more hybrid/useful/unique from the get go. There is no lore accuracy left to be sacrificed here anyway and the whole "uniqueness" aspect is also gone because none of these passive actually still impact gameplay in any meaningful way while everyone is hybrid just like everyone else.
I don't mind interesting passives like the liquid efficiency for Argonians and your suggestions are fine balance-wise, but I don't see why this would be fixed through racial passive morphs. What sense does that make? Other than Argonians, what race morphs to gain new racial abilities within a lifespan? At this rate I would prefer to have no racial passives at all and us getting to choose the passives we want without tying them to race. And we all know Redguard and Bosmer sustain don't actually help you in PvE like the damage passives do, so why beat around the bush and add a morph that is objectively superior? Just replace it with the damage. Don't be afraid to trample over the old passives when trying to make something new - they have already been trampled.
The reason is simple - you cannot create all round passives, because then all races would look exactly the same and they will be op, because all of their statistics will be increased by racial passives.
In this solution there are only two races that fit for hybrids: Dunmer & Khajiit. Just as now.
All other must choose if they go magicka or stamina.
But people would finally have a choice if they wanna to play imperial battlemage, breton knight or bosmer spinner that would not cripple their mechanics and improve roleplay.
And TBH I do not think that sustain bonuses are useless. I have Redguard stamsorc, Redguard stamDK and Bosmer stamhealer - they do not have issues with resource management like my Orc stamplars or Dunmer magblade & magcro, so i can always push them a little harder.
Sure, uniqueness would probably be better but I don't think that zos can implement it without breaking the game. This is mmo after all.0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
If everyone is the same, nobody is OP. Do I want everyone to be the same? No, but ZOS seems to want it that way and there is no point trying to ask for something that ZOS wouldn't agree to, as they make the calls here.Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Feels overcomplicated even if it's just a morph or two per race. I don't think we should treat racial passives differently than other passives. Just keep it simple.
Sorry, but this game is kinda complicated and showed proposals are probably clearer than character screen of our hero, especially for new players
Plus remember that sure, passives might be passive ^^ but many of them correlate with number of active skills that define their efficiency: NB, Sorc, Warden, Necro, FG or MG have this solution, so you already have certain dynamic in them.
Yes, but what is the reason you are adding these morphs here? You want more hybridization and less one-trick ponies. So why not make those passives like that from the get go? Why the morphs? We are already talking about changing racials so ... might as well change them to be more hybrid/useful/unique from the get go. There is no lore accuracy left to be sacrificed here anyway and the whole "uniqueness" aspect is also gone because none of these passive actually still impact gameplay in any meaningful way while everyone is hybrid just like everyone else.
I don't mind interesting passives like the liquid efficiency for Argonians and your suggestions are fine balance-wise, but I don't see why this would be fixed through racial passive morphs. What sense does that make? Other than Argonians, what race morphs to gain new racial abilities within a lifespan? At this rate I would prefer to have no racial passives at all and us getting to choose the passives we want without tying them to race. And we all know Redguard and Bosmer sustain don't actually help you in PvE like the damage passives do, so why beat around the bush and add a morph that is objectively superior? Just replace it with the damage. Don't be afraid to trample over the old passives when trying to make something new - they have already been trampled.
The reason is simple - you cannot create all round passives, because then all races would look exactly the same and they will be op, because all of their statistics will be increased by racial passives.In this solution there are only two races that fit for hybrids: Dunmer & Khajiit. Just as now.
All other must choose if they go magicka or stamina.
Also what do you mean "just as now"? Altmer, Orcs and Argonians are hybrid as well. We have 5 hybrid races, 6 if we count Imperials with their reduction to all costs. The only nonhybrid races are the sustain races: Breton, Bosmer and Redguards and two of those also have hybridized passives somewhere in their kit.
And what is keeping you from roleplay right now? Racial passives do not matter outside of scorepushing leaderboards or trying to get that extra bit of optimization for a very specific thing in PvP. But that doesn't mean you can't already play these things effectively.But people would finally have a choice if they wanna to play imperial battlemage, breton knight or bosmer spinner that would not cripple their mechanics and improve roleplay.
So, again, why morphs? If you make those passives hybrid, you won't need to choose morphs, you can just choose what you like. What if I want to play as a hybrid character? Does your need to play magicka Redguard trump someone else's to play hybrid Redguard? Making those passives hybrid would make everyone happy enough. Leaving them the way they are, people will still complain about them.
Personally I wish racial passives would reflect the description of the race they belong to. That has no place for stamina Altmer because these passives are supposed to be grounded in physiology - otherwise they wouldn't be racial passives at all. But since ZOS has abandoned that in favor of their "play the way you want" and made Orcs and Altmer hybrid, everyone might as well be hybrid now.
You are scared of everyone being the same if they are all hybrid? Your suggestion for Bretons basically turns them into better Redguards while Redguards get to be 5%-worse-than Dunmer. In your system, almost every race can morph to be like a different race - then why not pick that other race in the first place?
This has nothing to do with racial passives anymore. It's just picking what you like the look of and then accommodating those who want to be different. Why not make it easier and scrap the whole racial passive system for something more free that isn't tied to race?And TBH I do not think that sustain bonuses are useless. I have Redguard stamsorc, Redguard stamDK and Bosmer stamhealer - they do not have issues with resource management like my Orc stamplars or Dunmer magblade & magcro, so i can always push them a little harder.
Sure, uniqueness would probably be better but I don't think that zos can implement it without breaking the game. This is mmo after all.
Nobody said sustain bonuses are useless. Weapon damage is just objectively better because you can always get sustain from other sources until you have enough, but not so with damage - you can always make use of more damage. In trials healers provide the group with enough sustain that Orcs and Dunmer do not have to worry about running out of resources while Redguards and Bosmer struggle to reach those last few percent because they cannot trade their extra sustain for extra damage. In that context, sustain passives are bad compared to raw damage.
If you are not talking about scorepushing in trials, then this entire racial passive thing is more about not wanting to have made the "wrong" choice, because every other content can already be done effectively on any race in any role so the whole "finally having the choice" thing is already here for that content - you just have to stop chasing after what the score pushers are doing if it diminishes your fun.
Personally I am at that point where I just want it to all be flavor passives so we can go back to enjoying our differences and having nice things without it affecting balance. I do like your Liquid Efficiency suggestion in that regard. But if it has to be combat related and we aren't going back to being lore accurate, then fully homogenized hybrid is the way to go - but preferably without still calling them racial passives.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Ezorus✭✭✭Not a fan tbh.. the whole hybridisation and dumbing down the game, making more things easier to do and obtain for casual audience is taking away from the quality. Aswell as Challenge of playing an MMO, they are meant to be (to a degree) difficult to learn, grindy, and to spark plenty of theory crafting (the best part imo)0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭No, if you add all statistics bonuses to all races you will have power creep and that is op.
By hybrid i mean versatile races that could perform both subroles and efficiently mix all types of skills together. In these terms only Dunmer & Khajiit fit the description.
Altmer & Orc are close, and Argonian... well, sure you can say that that technically it is true, they are hybrid because they have bonuses to all stats, but because most of the skills related to healing are magic based (except Warden) they are de facto magically inclined race what do not reflect their partisan abilities and potential to raid Oblivion realms and kick some Daedric...
Once again: if you are playing a single hero stranded in one of provinces of Tamriel, sure, we can assume that AAALLLL Khajiits & Bosmers are thiefs, AAALLL Bretons & Altmers are mages and AAALLL Nords and Redguards are Warrior brutes so we can replay each race to have unique experience, but c'mon, in ESO? Where we can see whole Tamrielic societies, full of warriors and plenty of mages. You want to tell me that every Breton is great at magic but somehow they decided to create quasifeudal society build on knighthood? And that Bosmers are stamina masters without bonuses to magic but somehow their societies are revolving around magical connection with nature? No, that doesn't have sense.
Also, the division between magic & stamina abilities in ESO was symbolic from the beginning. Because what is the difference between conjuring magical and "stamina" spear? Or summoning magicka or stamina cliff races and bugs? Or two types of NB teleport attack. Not mentioning whole stamina necro stuff... They are all magic, so that doesn't have sense either. Bah, even some weapon-weapon skills like dual wield cloak shield or teleport attack are obviously magic.
So i really don't understand why you are sticking so desperately to this division, if this simply DOESN'T HAVE SENSE. Never had. Because there is no explanation why Breton Templar could be OP conjuring this type of spear, but useless conjuring that type. Or Bosmer that could spam summoning one type of Cliff Races but not another cause it will exhaust him ^^
And finally, remember that all TES statistics (not unique abilities) reflected the origin point of the character. There was nothing keeping your Altmer to became OP warrior or turning your Imperial into greatest mage alive or, in case of Morrowind, to create God-of-all-classes ^^ but ZOS turned this upside down and now statistics define endgame part of character creation, not beginning.
So no, regardless if i want to play a single character and develop it in the way i want to participate in whole type of endgame content to get titles or I would like to create whole "family" for RPG reasons, at this point i can do this with some races, but with others like Bretons utterly useless in "stamina" skills (even if your Breton is a knight) or Redguards and Bosmers with limited access to not even magicka BUT class abilities that have stamina/max stat morphs maybe for 1/3 of skills, i simply cannot do this.
And believe me, i tested it a lot. And the fact that some races cannot fully rely on class abilities to develop a reasonable build is ridiculous.
Edited by Ippokrates on November 11, 2021 2:12PM2 -
Kory✭✭✭✭"Redguard
Heritage of Sword-Singers - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258. "
I think ZoS stopped reading when you said that, how dare you
1 -
Kory✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »
oh
lol I like your ideas by the way. It gives some "newness" to racial passives that would be kind of exciting. A nice base to start with and go from there. Numbers always can be adjusted.1 -
Muttsmutt✭✭✭✭✭pretty great idea actually. i didn't read the specific suggestions, but racial morphs in general sounds great.PC-EU // UNDEAD2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »No, if you add all statistics bonuses to all races you will have power creep and that is op.
By hybrid i mean versatile races that could perform both subroles and efficiently mix all types of skills together. In these terms only Dunmer & Khajiit fit the description.
Altmer & Orc are close, and Argonian... well, sure you can say that that technically it is true, they are hybrid because they have bonuses to all stats, but because most of the skills related to healing are magic based (except Warden) they are de facto magically inclined race what do not reflect their partisan abilities and potential to raid Oblivion realms and kick some Daedric...
Once again: if you are playing a single hero stranded in one of provinces of Tamriel, sure, we can assume that AAALLLL Khajiits & Bosmers are thiefs, AAALLL Bretons & Altmers are mages and AAALLL Nords and Redguards are Warrior brutes so we can replay each race to have unique experience, but c'mon, in ESO? Where we can see whole Tamrielic societies, full of warriors and plenty of mages. You want to tell me that every Breton is great at magic but somehow they decided to create quasifeudal society build on knighthood? And that Bosmers are stamina masters without bonuses to magic but somehow their societies are revolving around magical connection with nature? No, that doesn't have sense.
Also, the division between magic & stamina abilities in ESO was symbolic from the beginning. Because what is the difference between conjuring magical and "stamina" spear? Or summoning magicka or stamina cliff races and bugs? Or two types of NB teleport attack. Not mentioning whole stamina necro stuff... They are all magic, so that doesn't have sense either. Bah, even some weapon-weapon skills like dual wield cloak shield or teleport attack are obviously magic.
So i really don't understand why you are sticking so desperately to this division, if this simply DOESN'T HAVE SENSE. Never had. Because there is no explanation why Breton Templar could be OP conjuring this type of spear, but useless conjuring that type. Or Bosmer that could spam summoning one type of Cliff Races but not another cause it will exhaust him ^^
And finally, remember that all TES statistics (not unique abilities) reflected the origin point of the character. There was nothing keeping your Altmer to became OP warrior or turning your Imperial into greatest mage alive or, in case of Morrowind, to create God-of-all-classes ^^ but ZOS turned this upside down and now statistics define endgame part of character creation, not beginning.
So no, regardless if i want to play a single character and develop it in the way i want to participate in whole type of endgame content to get titles or I would like to create whole "family" for RPG reasons, at this point i can do this with some races, but with others like Bretons utterly useless in "stamina" skills (even if your Breton is a knight) or Redguards and Bosmers with limited access to not even magicka BUT class abilities that have stamina/max stat morphs maybe for 1/3 of skills, i simply cannot do this.
And believe me, i tested it a lot. And the fact that some races cannot fully rely on class abilities to develop a reasonable build is ridiculous.
You won't have power creep if you add hybrid stats onto everything because no skill scales with your combined weapon and spell damage or your combined max resources. A hybrid build will at best be just as strong as a focused build, but hybridization alone does not make power creep. Set effects like "increases all physical damage over time by 20%" turned into "increases all damage over time by 20%" would make power creep, but not simple hybrid stats.
Altmer and Orc are not "close", they are there. Altmer are better stam dps than Redguards because 2000 max stam doesn't contribute to damage nearly as much as 258 weapon damage and Orc are comparable to Bretons as magicka dps if not outright better.
Not all members of a race are X, but there are tendencies within those races and natural talent. Shalidor was a Nord mage, but like every other Nord he was frost resistant and probably would have picked up on twohander techniques faster than if he was born an Altmer (that is, with everything else being the same - daily routine, access to resources, etc). Similarly I am sure that if Shalidor was born an Altmer he would have been an even greater mage.
Also it makes perfect sense that Bretons would resort to being knights and fighting physically. Yes, they are a society of "magic humans", but they are also resistant to magic. The way I see it the reason Bretons aren't all mages is mainly due to a lack of education, but I am sure the mages guild has more Breton applicants than Nords and Redguards, probably even Imperials.
The division of magic and stamina abilities in ESO was not symbolic from the beginning, but I can see why one might think that. Personally I would prefer if there were more differences between them, but ZOS is streamlining everything right now and making everything the same. I don't get why you are saying that I am "sticking desperately to this division" as my suggestion was to literally make it less divisive by hybridizing everything fully, rather than asking people to choose between one or the other like you are with your suggestion.
What I remember from Morrowind is that every race had a magicka multiplier bonus that would result in Altmer having the highest magicka pool, followed by Bretons. And that would stay true all the way to the endgame God-of-all-classes. That doesn't mean you couldn't be an Altmer warrior, but it would take you more effort to reach that point.
I do not like it either that the racial stats, which used to be earlygame stats, are now endgame relevant in ESO, but that is why I prefer to have flavor passives over combat relevant passives, even if I do find combat relevant passives neat.
As a compromise I can see more being done with penetration and crit damage as those values can reach a cap so that beyond a certain point your race does not matter at endgame level anymore. This would mean that stats like max resources and weapon/spell damage would have to disappear from racial passives as those do not have a cap. That would also allow lore accuracy to be restored without barring people from playing their magicka Redguards and such. Alternatively my other suggestion was to completely remove combat passives from races and make a new system (revamped mundus stones for example) to really allow people to play whatever they want.
But as I said again, for everything that isn't score pushing (I am not talking about titles, because even the hardest achievements can be gotten on the "wrong" race), race does not matter. From best to worst the difference is 8% damage max, but usually a lot less. 8% is nothing. A stamina Breton is not "utterly useless". For the average person, their performance from one fight to the next varies more than that. 8% only starts adding up with 8 dps players in a trial, all of them pulling above 100k dps. Then those 8% across 8 players are a total of 64k dps, which can make a difference, but only in a trial and only really in a score run where you compete against other players who may have optimized those last 8% as well. But they can still get all the toughest achievements, because that group still has 800k dps, which is more than enough.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭No, if you add weapon/spell power, stamina/magicka pool and recovery, you will have power creep, because contrary to what you have claimed, stam/mag contribute to your skill dmg 1:10,5, so no, Altmer & Orc are not there yet, as Dunmer will have 180 dmg more in mag/stam skills, while Altmer will have 190 and Orc - 95 dmg to only one type of skills. Not mentioning importance of resource pool. And of course potential recovery, that would probably totally crippled pvp. So any race that would have dmg + resource + recovery will be power creep.
So sure, there could be "better" and "less powerful" races, but a good game imho should embrace improving diversity of choices instead of sticking to the same stuff just for the sale of sticking.
Also, yes, in Morrowind Altmer and Breton have multipliers to mana BUT you can easily compensate it with Sign and of course Enchantments that could boost your stats through the roof.
And, if we wanna stick so much to the lore, let me remind that Altmer have vulnerability to elemental magic - should we add this to ESO too for the sake of lore?
And what do you mean that the division between magic and stamina wasn't symbolic? Before previous patch, ESO had like 25 patches that were basically maintaining the status quo. The biggest difference between magicka & stamina was in healing and self-healing available only to magic, so stamina build had to rely on rolls to avoid dmg. But then i think imperial city added Vigor and later Markhart introduce RotPO.
But if you wanna go deeper - didn't Breton had swordmastery in Beta? ^^
So summarizing, if we would stick to TES lore, we should limit weapon usage only to LA&HA, with maybe some perks and all skills should be stricly magicka-based. Do we want that? I am pretty sure not.
So make change and give all races option for using all range of skills, like Breton stamplar, Bosmer magden and Redguard magic dude that create all this stuff we must fight in Craglorn -_-Edited by Ippokrates on November 11, 2021 5:56PM0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »No, if you add weapon/spell power, stamina/magicka pool and recovery, you will have power creep, because contrary to what you have claimed, stam/mag contribute to your skill dmg 1:10,5, so no, Altmer & Orc are not there yet, as Dunmer will have 180 dmg more in mag/stam skills, while Altmer will have 190 and Orc - 95 dmg to only one type of skills. Not mentioning importance of resource pool. And of course potential recovery, that would probably totally crippled pvp. So any race that would have dmg + resource + recovery will be power creep.
So sure, there could be "better" and "less powerful" races, but a good game imho should embrace improving diversity of choices instead of sticking to the same stuff just for the sale of sticking.
Also, yes, in Morrowind Altmer and Breton have multipliers to mana BUT you can easily compensate it with Sign and of course Enchantments that could boost your stats through the roof.
And, if we wanna stick so much to the lore, let me remind that Altmer have vulnerability to elemental magic - should we add this to ESO too for the sake of lore?
And what do you mean that the division between magic and stamina wasn't symbolic? Before previous patch, ESO had like 25 patches that were basically maintaining the status quo. The biggest difference between magicka & stamina was in healing and self-healing available only to magic, so stamina build had to rely on rolls to avoid dmg. But then i think imperial city added Vigor and later Markhart introduce RotPO.
But if you wanna go deeper - didn't Breton had swordmastery in Beta? ^^
So summarizing, if we would stick to TES lore, we should limit weapon usage only to LA&HA, with maybe some perks and all skills should be stricly magicka-based. Do we want that? I am pretty sure not.
So make change and give all races option for using all range of skills, like Breton stamplar, Bosmer magden and Redguard magic dude that create all this stuff we must fight in Craglorn -_-
I don't think you get my point about power creep at all.
A race that has 2000 max magicka, a flavor passive and 258 spell damage deals the same damage as a race with 2000 max magicka and stamina, a flavor passive and 258 weapon and spell damage. That is not power creep. The game checks which stat results in the highest output and then scales of that stat alone. Nobody said that the races without sustain should get sustain or that the sustain races should keep their sustain but also get damage. Since sustain is a lot easier to come by, I think the choice to give up sustain for more raw damage is an easy one, even if that makes more races feel same-y. They do however already feel same-y, so there is nothing left to be lost. Also 180 damage stats isn't a lot, especially considering that the stats from max resources scale badly since CP2.0 while actual spell and weapon damage can get increased by 30% from major and minor sorcery/brutality and Continuous Attack. Warhorn is only 10% and with more sources of Major Force, Warhorn isn't even that needed anymore. The differences in max stats, especially since they raised the floor for base stats recently, really doesn't matter all that much, especially for stamina dps. That's why Altmer are better stam dps than Redguards.
I am a fan of diverse racial passives as well, but to me diversity is when things are actually different and not everyone being able to choose if they want to be magicka or stamina and then getting the same stats as the other races. Your ideas for Redguards essentially turn them into better Altmer, because on a race that is actually good for magicka users, the 8% reduced cost on weapon (read: destruction staff) abilities is a big deal. All of your morph options just copy what another race has. That is the opposite of making things diverse. And while I can understand why people want to play something other than the norm and be good at it, I don't like the approach here and would prefer plane homogenization where everything is hybrid from the get go over this illusion of choice by picking essentially meaningless morphs.
That you can compensate race by picking a different sign is actually something that I've been trying to recreate for ESO. This is one example of how you can use a different system to compensate for having the "wrong" race and since a lot of Mundus stone effects in ESO could be streamlined and hybridized, I think this where we actually need to look to resolve this mess. A system outside of race.
Oh and as for the topic of elemental weakness for Altmer, yes please! I would love to have that back. I am not even kidding. I know a lot of other people would hate that, but I think letting one race be more powerful than the others should come at a cost. There is no reason racial passives shouldn't also be able to work like that. If you dislike having a weakness to elements, because you want to be tank for example, you could choose not to take that passive, so nobody gets hurt.
At the start of the game class abilities were pretty much exclusively magicka. Magicka abilities would often scale with max magicka and not with spell damage, so you would build different on those. For a long time magicka also had much worse sustain, still does but less so. Meanwhile Bleed damage was bypassing resistances, so physical damage builds could take down armored targets in a way that magicka users couldn't. Until recently physical damage also didn't have a status effect, so things like concussion, chilled and burning where exclusive to magicka users. While it could certain be handled better, there were differences. Stamina builds did have access to Evasion though, which would let you passively dodge attacks, and back then pretty much any attack was dodgeable, so these playstyles felt much different to play.
I wouldn't mind if we made skills that are clearly magic magicka abilities only, but the main issue here is that ESO doesn't allow us to play as spellblades and battlemages because the system doesn't handle hybrids well, requires us to use a destruction staff to be effective at being magicka dps and won't let us cast destruction and restoration magic with our hands alone. There are a lot of things I would change to make ESO a better TES game, this being one of them, and I am sure the Devs agree. Rich Lambert said in his streams that one thing he would do differently if he got a do-over is make the decision to be a TES game first and MMO second sooner in the development process. I see this issue as one of the core flaws of ESO and the root cause for the need to trample the lore to get proper racial passives that work for both magicka and stamina.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭These were only basic proposals to do not discourage people from discussions. But sure, copying will not solve everything. TBH If i could choose a single skill that Redguard should have to reflect their weapon abilities, it should be bonus to LA/HA. Small, maybe 5-10% but then you would be able to make a reasonable Redguard "swordsinger", for example with Maelstrom Staff and Empower from Solar Barrage or MG skills, while still keeping their stamina pool.
Argonian as i said before, should go with poisons & dot - because now they are basically useless in offensive, what is a lore shame.
Khajiit with option for tanking - dodge.
And Bretons - with spell resistance, they should get some extra chance for immunity for fear & magical stun - then in combine with medium armour you will be able to turn them into mage killers.
Only in case of Bosmers i would firmly stick that they should have options for magical morphs, because that simple stick with their overall impression we have in ESO. And Imperials - they should have option for education/magicka too.
But i would not reject morphs for a single reason - customization. In single game we could be men or mer from nowhere, with no background (ok, maybe not none, i am still more into Morrowind intro than Skyrim -_- ). But here in ESO we have few millions people that travel through Tamriel and want to create some unique character to play it. And if they could choose any combination of class skills, weapons, armours, guilds, curses or pvp skills, they should not be forced to stick with uncustomizable racial skills, because some people thinking that it is not suited lore.
I wonder, if those people ever play Morrowind or even better - Arena. If they played, they wouldn't be so vocal about the lore, with all stuff like magic not available to non-magic classes, gender differences or first version of Khajiits ^^
Let people to make Imperial or Breton with some space of choice, so they could enjoy the game, while current lack of choice is simply... boring, and in cases of many builds, wasting potential ESO have.Edited by Ippokrates on November 11, 2021 9:01PM0 -
twev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A Khajiit racial passive ought to include reduced fall damage.The problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.4 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A Khajiit racial passive ought to include reduced fall damage.
Not only because Khajiit are cats, but also because, before Skyrim, Acrobatics was a major skill of Khajiit and it reduced fall damage. But the pickpocketting bonus makes sense too.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Adremal✭✭✭✭✭Argonians' aptitude to magic went out of the window in Skyrim because they were underrepresented and confined to Windhelm dock workers and the occasional outlaw/rogue/scoundrel. However, they had previously always had bonuses to illusion/alteration/mysticism, with females having a basic intelligence score on par with Altmer and Bretons. Morrowind's description:
I went on to google a bit because I didn't remember the name, and was reminded by people citing sources (UESP, lorebooks and such) that in Oblivion,At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility. Argonians are reserved with strangers, yet fiercely loyal to those they accept as friends. Like the Khajiit, Argonians are limited to some headgear and no footwear.The Mages Guild halls in Chorrol, Bravil, and Cheydinhal will all eventually be run by the Argonians Teekeeus, Kud-Ei, and Deetsan. Tar-Meena is a Master-Wizard of the Mages Guild and plays a large role in the Main Quest. There's also an interesting Master of Alteration named Tooth-in-the-Sea who spends most of his time underwater at the bottom of Niben Bay.
(another user below)
After you complete the initial run of “Recommendation” quests in Oblivion, 3 out of 7 Guilds are actually headed up by Argonians (Deetsan, Kud-Ei, Teekeeus).Tar-Meena apparently heads the library at Arcane University. Not bad for Argonians in Cyrodil.
In Morrowind,As for Argonians, Skink-In-Trees-Shade runs one of Vvardenfell's Mage's Guild halls, and is the most powerful Argonian mage in Morrowind. Im-Kilaya helps to run Twin Lamps and is a prominent mage. Miun-Gei is an accomplished enchanter who runs a store in Vivec.
Part of Morrowind having few non-man/mer mages comes from the fact that the majority of them are slaves (I believe).
In ESO,There aren’t many famous Argonians because you don’t see them much outside of Black Marsh, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any powerful ones. In Eso in Murkmire you see more into it. Argonian use of magic isn’t similar to the other races. For one some are capable of Hist magic, which confuses even the Telvanni because it doesn’t follow the same rules. Then they have access to weather magic, which no one else on Tamriel has. Most of their magic is defined as ancient, mysterious and powerful. It’s very tribal. Then you also Vakka stones, which are similar to Ayleid welkynd stones but are powered by the sun, but even the Ayleids said it’s completely unseen before. So even though there aren’t famous mages doesn’t mean they don’t have powerful magic
I'll add that they're a very alien race compared to others, being co-dependent with the Hist, of which not much is known - and having very different concepts of time and change. Not to mention that we basically know nothing about the Xanmeer era, but it points to the typical "advanced ancient civilization that ceased to exist for mysterious reasons" trope, kind of like the Falmer and Dwemer, though more is known about the latter two - to my knowledge there isn't really much to go on on the Xanmeer era other than the buildings themselves. Speaking of which, Lakemire Xanmeer's description is "An unknown Argonian master of water magic equipped this underwater Xanmeer Manor with its own submerged picture windows that gaze out into the depths of a lush Murkmire lake.", and if it's not one of the most magical houses available I don't know what is.
TL;DR: confining Argonians to the Skyrim presentation may not be ideal. If I were to give them a morph, I'd give them one specifically magic/Hist oriented. Alchemy and healing is covered already, no need to put that much emphasis on poisons specifically because they're assassins, especially not when Nords, Orcs, Redguards and Bosmer all get magicka morphs. Are there really more Spinners/Nord Mages/"Outcasts"(?)/Wise Women and so on to justify leaving Argonians with their standard bonus and give them nothing specifically Magicka-based? Seems to me that they're underrepresented in OP's otherwise nice idea as they are in Skyrim.1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Great ideas, but making these changes would mean that race changing tokens would be almost completely unsellable and that is not what ZOS wants...Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge3
