Overland Content Feedback Thread

Lysette

The best is still to have separated instances - I don't see it beneficial to have both in the same zone. Just think of what a newbie will think if he sees a vet player struggling with content he does quite easily - what will he think?- That becoming a vet player is not worth it - the same experience I had when I tried to PTS, got level 50 and had not the skills to fill this role - it was terrible and my conclusion - not worth to ever become a veteran - the same could happen here if both is mixed.

spartaxoxo

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example - I revisited newbie zones for antiquities - but I tried hard to stay clear from the trash mob, because if newbies see what my armor does to these mobs, without me even fighting at all - they just get frustrated, because they still struggle with this content - to have you guys in the same zone with us, will just have the same effect, it would frustrate us and take away from our enjoyment of the game as it is - and this is a really important thing to consider for ZOS.

Are you trying to say you think they should do nothing at all then? Because if a separate vet overland is unrealistic and debuffs are gonna drive casuals away, then what else can they do?

Sylvermynx

I'm not going to get into any of these arguments at all. I'm just going to say, one more time, I'm fine with whatever happens - as long as it's OPTIONAL.

Lysette

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example - I revisited newbie zones for antiquities - but I tried hard to stay clear from the trash mob, because if newbies see what my armor does to these mobs, without me even fighting at all - they just get frustrated, because they still struggle with this content - to have you guys in the same zone with us, will just have the same effect, it would frustrate us and take away from our enjoyment of the game as it is - and this is a really important thing to consider for ZOS.

Are you trying to say you think they should do nothing at all then? Because if a separate vet overland is unrealistic and debuffs are gonna drive casuals away, then what else can they do?

Nah, I said I would do 3 zones in separate instances - every 14 days changing to other zones - which would give ZOS time to cater these zones for vet players - I think tis would be a reasonable solution which would serve all the best - but it requires the will to do separate instances, even if those are just 3 at a time - and to do the work required to make it a vet zones.

But this is as well why I asked - do you really want to do these very simple quests - fetching water and put out fires and so on - is this the content you want to play?- Because if not, then the whole vet overland idea is vain, if you do just raising picking in those zones. These quests are made for new players - pretty much all of them in overland - stuff, which isn't for a veteran.

SilverBride mention that as well several times - but there is no reply from you guys - you don't really want to do those quest, do you? Most are trivial stuff, made for inexperienced players to have first successes - that is not stuff made for you and never will be for you imo. So why do you want vet overland then - most of the content there is not of any interest for you.

In the end the best idea of yours is that yearly new adventure zone for vets - instead of one of the dungeon DLCs - this has potential.

Ronin37

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example - I revisited newbie zones for antiquities - but I tried hard to stay clear from the trash mob, because if newbies see what my armor does to these mobs, without me even fighting at all - they just get frustrated, because they still struggle with this content - to have you guys in the same zone with us, will just have the same effect, it would frustrate us and take away from our enjoyment of the game as it is - and this is a really important thing to consider for ZOS.

Your joking right. Like you literally stay clear of trash because some low level might see you. I have have never seen a high level do that in any MMO I have ever played. I have play a lot of them. If they get frustrated they need to get good or quite. Also there are no newbie zones in ESO. All zones are the same level as you. So for a level 1 all zones are level 1. If this was Anarchy Online or LOTRO then sure. The hiding from noobs because you have a high level toon is odd but making a noob zone not completable by noobs for the sake of high levels would be bad. But in those game zones are segregated by level. In ESO all zones are tuned for noobs except maybe Craglorn. [snip]

[edited for bait]

spartaxoxo

Lysette wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example - I revisited newbie zones for antiquities - but I tried hard to stay clear from the trash mob, because if newbies see what my armor does to these mobs, without me even fighting at all - they just get frustrated, because they still struggle with this content - to have you guys in the same zone with us, will just have the same effect, it would frustrate us and take away from our enjoyment of the game as it is - and this is a really important thing to consider for ZOS.

Are you trying to say you think they should do nothing at all then? Because if a separate vet overland is unrealistic and debuffs are gonna drive casuals away, then what else can they do?

Nah, I said I would do 3 zones in separate instances - every 14 days changing to other zones - which would give ZOS time to cater these zones for vet players - I think tis would be a reasonable solution which would serve all the best - but it requires the will to do separate instances, even if those are just 3 at a time - and to do the work required to make it a vet zones.

What? I genuinely don't understand your suggestion. What do you mean every 14 days? Like Greenshade is hard on Tuesday but come Thursday it's easy???

Lysette

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example - I revisited newbie zones for antiquities - but I tried hard to stay clear from the trash mob, because if newbies see what my armor does to these mobs, without me even fighting at all - they just get frustrated, because they still struggle with this content - to have you guys in the same zone with us, will just have the same effect, it would frustrate us and take away from our enjoyment of the game as it is - and this is a really important thing to consider for ZOS.

Your joking right. Like you literally stay clear of trash because some low level might see you. I have have never seen a high level do that in any MMO I have ever played. I have play a lot of them. If they get frustrated they need to get good or quite. Also there are no newbie zones in ESO. All zones are the same level as you. So for a level 1 all zones are level 1. If this was Anarchy Online or LOTRO then sure. The hiding from noobs because you have a high level toon is odd but making a noob zone not completable by noobs for the sake of high levels would be bad. But in those game zones are segregated by level. In ESO all zones are tuned for noobs except maybe Craglorn. I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

Nah, I'm not joking - I run like a coward until these trash mobs return to their spawn points, because I can live being seen as a coward, but I don't want to frustrate newbies - I was one as well and it did not do me well to see how others nuke those enemies, I had to struggle with - and the same is true, when I see one of the vets nuke the content I am playing with - it is just frustrating to see that - so I'm pretty happy with them not liking easy overland - because then they will not that often interfere, whereas if they would be mixed in with us, this would be a permanent thing to happen - not something I desire actually.

My way to play is very different from yours - I role play my characters, they are not using meta-information from outside the game and base their decisions solely on what they experience and can know - if they by reasons not go to a mage guild for example they might for a long time not be in the guild, because they had other things on their mind - that is role playing a character - I as the player know they have to go there, but I decide just based on what the character might be liking or wanting to do. And how do I know what they want?- Well, I have a character sheet for them, with characteristics of them - like how smart are they, how brave are they, what kind of interests do they have - you know, role playing characters, I am not the character, I am the player, giving life to them, but it is their life, not mine. None of those 16 got a high enough bravery value to become a hero type - so they are what they are - mediocre - some are as well not that smart, so I make bad decisions for them occasionally dependent on how dumb they are - this is role playing - and it is much different to how you play.

Lysette

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I will give another example - I revisited newbie zones for antiquities - but I tried hard to stay clear from the trash mob, because if newbies see what my armor does to these mobs, without me even fighting at all - they just get frustrated, because they still struggle with this content - to have you guys in the same zone with us, will just have the same effect, it would frustrate us and take away from our enjoyment of the game as it is - and this is a really important thing to consider for ZOS.

Are you trying to say you think they should do nothing at all then? Because if a separate vet overland is unrealistic and debuffs are gonna drive casuals away, then what else can they do?

Nah, I said I would do 3 zones in separate instances - every 14 days changing to other zones - which would give ZOS time to cater these zones for vet players - I think tis would be a reasonable solution which would serve all the best - but it requires the will to do separate instances, even if those are just 3 at a time - and to do the work required to make it a vet zones.

What? I genuinely don't understand your suggestion. What do you mean every 14 days? Like Greenshade is hard on Tuesday but come Thursday it's easy???

no, instead to do 40 overland instances - do 3 - put one of each faction in those - and change the zones every 14 days - this would just be 3 new separate instances where all the vet players would be together again - and 14 days later 3 different zones of overland would be in these separate vet zones.

SilverBride

Lysette wrote: »

...instead to do 40 overland instances - do 3 - put one of each faction in those - and change the zones every 14 days - this would just be 3 new separate instances where all the vet players would be together again - and 14 days later 3 different zones of overland would be in these separate vet zones.

That is very restrictive. Players who want added difficulty would be forced into certain zones and then 14 days later different ones, whether they were ready to move on or not.

Lysette

SilverBride wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

...instead to do 40 overland instances - do 3 - put one of each faction in those - and change the zones every 14 days - this would just be 3 new separate instances where all the vet players would be together again - and 14 days later 3 different zones of overland would be in these separate vet zones.

That is very restrictive. Players who want added difficulty would be forced into certain zones and then 14 days later different ones, whether they were ready to move on or not.

it is all of Tamriel in separate instances, which are not many and therefore not a drain on the server, it would give the opportunity to actually cater to what vets need and give ZOS time to make the changes - I assume vet players to consume those zones in even less than those 14 days - I chose that, because all of Tamriel would be accessible like this twice per year and nevertheless ZOS could eventually do that, because it would not cause an instance bloat and keep like-minded players together - isn't that what you wanted all the time, to not separate players too much?- This is a possible solution to it.

It is good to have like-minded players in the same instance - but not beneficial to have those together in the same instance, who's interests are opposite to each other - there is a benefit in separation of those two, whilst at the same time keep like-minded ones together.

Lysette

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

Ronin37

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

Arthtur

I cant believe in some comments...
Well, Kevin said something at least... That's a nice thing.

Well i dont even know how to start this. Sigh...

Lets start with Separate vet instance:
Its sounds amazing right? But... Would It rly be that great? Like i get it, everything would be harder and a lot of ppl want it. The thing is we can make everything harder, except trash mobs, without needing diffrent vet instance. So are those trash mobs worth it? For me - no.

Adventure Zone
This is a great idea if it wont end like Craglorn. There would be a lot of complains from casual players that its too hard and they cant enjoy the story. And knowing ZOS they would listen and make it barely harder than current overland. So even if i love this idea i dont believe in ZOS making a good job doing it. Like they already overnerf Dlc dungeons because of complains...

Debuffs
I just dont like debuffs. Idea of poisoning myself because enemy is too weak is just stupid for me. Like im not gonna not eat anything for 2 days because i want harder match in football... Sorry but for me its just... Uhhhh...

Sliders
Sorry but i dont see how it would work. I mean i get it but its an MMO game. Even if i use it a diffrent player will just kill the boss for me...

Challenge Banners
Its probably the best option. It doesnt have any problems. The only thing needed here is diffrent instance for WB so ppl wont have to wait years because somebody is farming the boss. Also to avoid toxicity. I even proposed idea with this:

Arthtur wrote: »

So... my idea(at least for the start):
Challenge Banners for World Bosses.

How it works:
Each WB has an Undaunted Banner like new DLC Dungeons. Using the banner moves player/group to diffrent instance (but still connected to the zone chat) with harder version of the boss.

Reasons for "Diffrent instance":
1) To avoid toxicity (changing boss difficulty to "make fun" from player/group who wants to do normal/veteran version of the boss)
2) To avoid long waiting times (when others are farming normal versions of the boss and dont want to do veteran version)

Rewards:
I dont want another Craglorn where 1 player picking up flowers gets more than entire group doing group content.

Good options(in my opinion)
1) Furnishing Items. For example:
- Vvardenfell, Shipwreck Cove - Fountain with Nereid (like in Fargrave)
2) Simple Mounts/Pets. For example:
- Vvardenfell, Nilthog's Hollow - Nix-Ox Mount
- Vvardenfell, Sulipund Grange - Mini-Hunger pet
3)Style Pages/Motifs. For example:
- Each boss in Vvardenfell has a chance to drop Ancestral Dark Elf Motif Page
4) Skins, tatoos etc.

Yes i know these rewards sounds crazy but those are just examples of rewards. If there wont be any rewards the content will be just dead.
Also adding nice rewards could add another option for making gold in game.

There would be added a new Undaunted NPC who gives a pledge to kill 3 veteran World Bosses from X zone - To help weaker players get the rewards.

Positives and negatives:
+rather easy to add veteran versions of bosses
+doesnt split the playerbase
+everyone can get a reward
+easy to test (adding this for 1 zone to see how players like it)

-a lot of rewards to create
-possible grind if rewards have low drop rate
-wont be hard with a lot of players

Random Encounters
Those could be interesting but... If im in middle of collecting surveys then its just an obstacle. If im running in overland looking for challenge its not enough. So for me it wont work without additional options for challenge.

About existing "veteran" content in overland... Its just a joke. Sorry. Its not hard at all with a group. Drops are bad because its a "group" content. Like the only time i had fun with harrowstorms was when there were already 5 bosses and it looked like a war. And all other times its just farming without thinking.

I would talk about the rewards but i dont want to make a big wall of text so....
Good rewards keep content alive for years. For example vFang Lair with Worm Wizard personality. Ppl are still looking for group for this. It was released almost 4 years ago...

So after those 75 pages im sticking to Adventure zone (even if ZOS will destroy it because of complains) and Challenge banners as those are the best for my needs. And i dont need those group activites in existing overland. Those oblivion portals in Blackwood and Deadlands were just bad for me.


Everything here is my opinion. And maybe some friends.


And now the only thing that left is waiting for some new info from Kevin... I mean from ZOS.

Cireous

How it feels to play the Overland in Elder Scrolls Online versus how you want it to feel.

Lysette

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

ShalidorsHeir

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

RP and challenge are not comparable since they do not contradict each other. The witcher 3 is for me the best RP game in terms of immersion. When i had to play it on easy i would give a damn sh!t about its RP potential. and would get rid of it.

Lysette

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

RP and challenge are not comparable since they do not contradict each other. The witcher 3 is for me the best RP game in terms of immersion. When i had to play it on easy i would give a damn sh!t about its RP potential. and would get rid of it.

And still the witcher 3 has a story only mode - where NPCs react with delay and do not use mechanics - it is much like ESO overland in story mode - a most of the time relaxing time in the game world with just a little bit of occasional challenge, but as well not that much, that one would really have to think - as in using the correct oils and signs and be agile - this can be played by pretty much anyone in story mode - and so is ESO overland basically as well.

Story mode in Witcher 3 is terrible - we have a given character, a bad ass who is afraid of nothing - story-mode there ruins the game experience. But the witcher is not a "play as you want" like game - he has a given role to be fleshed out by the player - that is different.

CP5

I've been mulling over the example spartaxoxo provided from LOTRO and have to say it does have the highest chance of working in game.

I still believe that separate instances will be the most stable and easiest to manage. Unlike other MMO's that use dozens of different servers, ESO has no such limit since the shards it generates can be modified as they're made, so that isn't an issue. A separate instance also ensures that all mobs are set to a standard at load and all players in the area are influenced the same way. This would also allow npc to npc interactions, like a weak mender getting their healing buffed, as well as allow behavior changes like replacing poor npc skills with ones that better suit them. Those things wouldn't work in situations where a mix of players existed.

The 'debuff' example isn't so much a debuff as just a flag for personal hard mode. Doing damage calculations off of the existence of this flag on particular targets shouldn't be that difficult since, for example, player pets take 85% less damage from aoe attacks. A similar check could easily work for many instances, and given how many flags enemies have, based on their difficulty, type, and so on, these could be modified to make more challenging enemies at least hit hard enough and live long enough.

As I mentioned, they couldn't make things like menders heal for more, (although the option exist to add skills to npcs like this with the restriction that they can only be cast on players with the flag), nor could they replace mr mc "walksbackwardtothrowknives" knife throwing, but overall between the potential damage shifting and flag player targeting skills, this would allow those opting into challenging content to still run with others, and have a more engaging experience while doing so. When I mentioned before that instances would be more stable, I do feel that adding more checks of "if player has flag then do X" could, in large enough numbers, cause some latency. If any of you have done coding, you know how dreadful a lot of if statements can be when they add up. But aside from those pain points, this idea could work really well. Thank you spartaxoxo again for bringing this up.

Lysette

.

CP5 wrote: »

I've been mulling over the example spartaxoxo provided from LOTRO and have to say it does have the highest chance of working in game.

I still believe that separate instances will be the most stable and easiest to manage. Unlike other MMO's that use dozens of different servers, ESO has no such limit since the shards it generates can be modified as they're made, so that isn't an issue. A separate instance also ensures that all mobs are set to a standard at load and all players in the area are influenced the same way. This would also allow npc to npc interactions, like a weak mender getting their healing buffed, as well as allow behavior changes like replacing poor npc skills with ones that better suit them. Those things wouldn't work in situations where a mix of players existed.

The 'debuff' example isn't so much a debuff as just a flag for personal hard mode. Doing damage calculations off of the existence of this flag on particular targets shouldn't be that difficult since, for example, player pets take 85% less damage from aoe attacks. A similar check could easily work for many instances, and given how many flags enemies have, based on their difficulty, type, and so on, these could be modified to make more challenging enemies at least hit hard enough and live long enough.

As I mentioned, they couldn't make things like menders heal for more, (although the option exist to add skills to npcs like this with the restriction that they can only be cast on players with the flag), nor could they replace mr mc "walksbackwardtothrowknives" knife throwing, but overall between the potential damage shifting and flag player targeting skills, this would allow those opting into challenging content to still run with others, and have a more engaging experience while doing so. When I mentioned before that instances would be more stable, I do feel that adding more checks of "if player has flag then do X" could, in large enough numbers, cause some latency. If any of you have done coding, you know how dreadful a lot of if statements can be when they add up. But aside from those pain points, this idea could work really well. Thank you spartaxoxo again for bringing this up.

if it is just a flag as in 0 or 1 or a percentage value, one can simply inline that into the computation and avoid any branching instructions - this allows for a "slider" like implementation as well, if it is a percentage value - it is then basically "normal computation + flag * special effect" - and flag can be a percentage value as well, if it is a slider like implementation - it will be calculated in this case independently of if the player has the flag active or not, but it is as well much more likely, that the data is already in one of the low level caches and doesn't have to be fetched from RAM. Using if statements is creating a lot of unnecessary overhead, that is why this can be a burden - a simple inlined multiplication and addition on the other hand is not much of burden at all, because it takes just nanoseconds each - you would need a million of these calculation to still have pretty much no impact.

Lysette

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

RP and challenge are not comparable since they do not contradict each other. The witcher 3 is for me the best RP game in terms of immersion. When i had to play it on easy i would give a damn sh!t about its RP potential. and would get rid of it.

And still the witcher 3 has a story only mode - where NPCs react with delay and do not use mechanics - it is much like ESO overland in story mode - a most of the time relaxing time in the game world with just a little bit of occasional challenge, but as well not that much, that one would really have to think - as in using the correct oils and signs and be agile - this can be played by pretty much anyone in story mode - and so is ESO overland basically as well.

Story mode in Witcher 3 is terrible - we have a given character, a bad ass who is afraid of nothing - story-mode there ruins the game experience. But the witcher is not a "play as you want" like game - he has a given role to be fleshed out by the player - that is different.

At this point you are wrong. ESO Overland is far away from being that. Since the mechanics do work anymore as soon as you outperform them with anything. And yes its a different game - but definitely not terrible. Story is far more detailed than anything you'll find in any ES game because it is not as generic. Dont forget - we are talking about difficulty, not base design.

I meant the difficulty in story mode in witcher 3 is lame - if you use oils or use the correct signs against specific enemies is in story mode not really of importance - a notch higher in difficulty and you have to use them - and even a notch higher you might not survive if you don't pay close attention to how your enemies react and attack and which oil and sign to use against them - this is what I referred to.

And this is much like in ESO - in normal overland it is not really relevant what kind of weapon you use - any of them is effective. You don't have to think about armor penetration or critical damage, because enemies are not using it. That is much like story-mode in witcher 3 difficult-wise - that witcher 3 is much more of a deeper RPG, is clear to me.

CP5

Lysette wrote: »

.

CP5 wrote: »

I've been mulling over the example spartaxoxo provided from LOTRO and have to say it does have the highest chance of working in game.

I still believe that separate instances will be the most stable and easiest to manage. Unlike other MMO's that use dozens of different servers, ESO has no such limit since the shards it generates can be modified as they're made, so that isn't an issue. A separate instance also ensures that all mobs are set to a standard at load and all players in the area are influenced the same way. This would also allow npc to npc interactions, like a weak mender getting their healing buffed, as well as allow behavior changes like replacing poor npc skills with ones that better suit them. Those things wouldn't work in situations where a mix of players existed.

The 'debuff' example isn't so much a debuff as just a flag for personal hard mode. Doing damage calculations off of the existence of this flag on particular targets shouldn't be that difficult since, for example, player pets take 85% less damage from aoe attacks. A similar check could easily work for many instances, and given how many flags enemies have, based on their difficulty, type, and so on, these could be modified to make more challenging enemies at least hit hard enough and live long enough.

As I mentioned, they couldn't make things like menders heal for more, (although the option exist to add skills to npcs like this with the restriction that they can only be cast on players with the flag), nor could they replace mr mc "walksbackwardtothrowknives" knife throwing, but overall between the potential damage shifting and flag player targeting skills, this would allow those opting into challenging content to still run with others, and have a more engaging experience while doing so. When I mentioned before that instances would be more stable, I do feel that adding more checks of "if player has flag then do X" could, in large enough numbers, cause some latency. If any of you have done coding, you know how dreadful a lot of if statements can be when they add up. But aside from those pain points, this idea could work really well. Thank you spartaxoxo again for bringing this up.

if it is just a flag as in 0 or 1 or a percentage value, one can simply inline that into the computation and avoid any branching instructions - this allows for a "slider" like implementation as well, if it is a percentage value - it is then basically "normal computation + flag * special effect" - and flag can be a percentage value as well, if it is a slider like implementation - it will be calculated in this case independently of if the player has the flag active or not, but it is as well much more likely, that the data is already in one of the low level caches and doesn't have to be fetched from RAM. Using if statements is creating a lot of unnecessary overhead, that is why this can be a burden - a simple inlined multiplication and addition on the other hand is not much of burden at all, because it takes just nanoseconds each - you would need a million of these calculation to still have pretty much no impact.

Good point, just comes down implementation.

ShalidorsHeir

hehe you read it already. i was about to fix that. Anyways, as you said: its is terrible in both cases once it becomes to easy. You will sometime get to this point in ESO too.

Lysette

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

hehe you read it already. i was about to fix that. Anyways, as you said: its is terrible in both cases once it becomes to easy. You will sometime get to this point in ESO too.

Well, I am already somewhat - when I fell into the river in the Reach because a key got stuck on my keyboard and pulled 4 river trolls behind me, which are classfied as "dangerous creatures" - and my level 30 explorer survived and killed them all with a resto staff, I thought - crap, I should have been dead here, these river trolls need to be at least twice if not 3-times stronger to be dangerous. He struggled surviving, that is true, but he shouldn't have stand a chance against 4 of them all at once. He does not even use potions yet, now imagine how this would have turned out with potions - he will now learn to craft them, and then see how well he'll be doing at a ritual side :-)

This is as well role playing btw - due to him making this experience in the river with these 4 river trolls, I gave him 2 score points more for bravery, because he is more confident now - this again allows him to check out ritual sites, because he came across one before and stood his ground until he ran out of resources - so this is for him now something, he wants to try with his newly gained confidence and bravery. On his very own - he is stupid enough to do that - lol - it is so fun to play like this - you should really try it.

summ0004

Lysette wrote: »

And still the witcher 3 has a story only mode - where NPCs react with delay and do not use mechanics - it is much like ESO overland in story mode - a most of the time relaxing time in the game world with just a little bit of occasional challenge, but as well not that much, that one would really have to think - as in using the correct oils and signs and be agile - this can be played by pretty much anyone in story mode - and so is ESO overland basically as well.

Story mode in Witcher 3 is terrible - we have a given character, a bad ass who is afraid of nothing - story-mode there ruins the game experience. But the witcher is not a "play as you want" like game - he has a given role to be fleshed out by the player - that is different.

Witcher 3 in story mode is still much harder than overland in ESO and you can still die if you do some really stupid stuff.

Whats interesting is my 10 year old boy and 8 year old girl used to casually grab the gamepad and have a bash in overland from time to time, and even they mentioned how easy the normal mobs were and actually got bored after a while and then started playing Zelda breath of wild as it had a better challenge.

Sylvermynx

I like overland the way it is. This is because real life is more than enough challenge for me; I want the games I play to get away from real life to NOT challenge me. I'm perfectly happy for all of you to have as much challenge as you can stand, as long as you don't insist on screwing up how I enjoy the game....

Lysette

summ0004 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

And still the witcher 3 has a story only mode - where NPCs react with delay and do not use mechanics - it is much like ESO overland in story mode - a most of the time relaxing time in the game world with just a little bit of occasional challenge, but as well not that much, that one would really have to think - as in using the correct oils and signs and be agile - this can be played by pretty much anyone in story mode - and so is ESO overland basically as well.

Story mode in Witcher 3 is terrible - we have a given character, a bad ass who is afraid of nothing - story-mode there ruins the game experience. But the witcher is not a "play as you want" like game - he has a given role to be fleshed out by the player - that is different.

Witcher 3 in story mode is still much harder than overland in ESO and you can still die if you do some really stupid stuff.

Whats interesting is my 10 year old boy and 8 year old girl used to casually grab the gamepad and have a bash in overland from time to time, and even they mentioned how easy the normal mobs were and actually got bored after a while and then started playing Zelda breath of wild as it had a better challenge.

Wolves weren't any hard in TES:Skyrim either - I really disliked fighting them, because I could contract Rockjoint from them.

Lysette

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I like overland the way it is. This is because real life is more than enough challenge for me; I want the games I play to get away from real life to NOT challenge me. I'm perfectly happy for all of you to have as much challenge as you can stand, as long as you don't insist on screwing up how I enjoy the game....

YEah, you have the difficulty in your latency already - 700+ms ping is a real challenge in itself. My ping got so much better, it is at pretty stable 240-260ms now, which makes ESO really playable now - 480ms was bad, but I cannot even imagine how weird playing with 700+ might be.

Ronin37

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

Not sure what RPGs you have played but what you are describing are Japanese visual novels. If I played an RPG with no challenge (which I have) they go back to the store. RPGs and and challenge are not strangers like Baulders Gate or Ultima. Original EQ had plenty of role players but still was satisfying in the challenge department. To be honest I am not sure what kind of gamers are you people because you surely not casual. You have gone beyond to the point you really don't want an actual game. Just a cosplay arena.

SilverBride

What if they were to establish a separate veteran overland? What would it look like?

• Would all the overland mobs become more difficult?
  - Or just the main story bosses?
  - Would mini bosses also become more difficult?
• How much more difficult would overland become?
  - Would there be varying degrees of difficulty?
  - Would the difficulty of the mobs vary by type?
  - Or would there be different levels of veteran overland?
  - Or both?
• Would mobs have more mechanics?
  - Would all mobs have more mechanics?
  - Or would just the main boss have more mechanics?
  - Or would mini bosses also have more mechanics?
• How would a player access the veteran overland and return back to normal?
• Would there be additional rewards? (I vote no.)

These are just a few of the things that need to be taken into consideration if this were to be established. But unless everyone is on board with how things are to be done there will still be some who aren't satisfied with the end result and we will be right back at square one again.

Edited to add more questions and consolidate.

Lysette

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

I would love to see who actually struggles with overland and they are older than 8 and can read.

There was a thread lately of someone level in the 40s, who got killed ever so often in overland - I had a conversation with her and explained why that is and what can be done with it - she has 333 health regeneration for example - stats in the 20k range, mixed gear which she found, not upgraded, no jewelry, no food, no potions - there are these people, you can try to find this thread, it was maybe a week ago - that she was near to level 50 did not tell anything about her knowledge of the game at all. Soon she would be getting CP - and still have no clue - there are people like this in this game.

That is the problem with this game. Overland should be a training ground. By level 40 that person should have an understanding of their class and class mechanics. This game hand holds the player and I get why. [snip] But that is a tragedy. I remember this happened in City of Heroes after an event where to much xp was mistakenly given for kills. You had people reaching max lev in matter of days without knowing what the hell they were doing. it was months where you were getting noobs joining high level content who had no clue what was going on. Overland is one of ESO's main weakness as an MMO. If some struggle with the base content of this game then the devs have failed in game design.

They could never do any other content. And the group dungeons are a joke that include Craglorn after the change. Even though I would rather have that 4 man public dungeon difficulty than nothing. Can you imaging games like Total War or Armored Core being dumb down this much so people can feel good about themselves. For crying out loud this game was marketed as a PVP Dark Age Of Camelot like game.

Its a mess.

[Edit for Conspiracy Theory.]

And that is the problem with it, it was marketed as something, what it isn't in the end - overland is ideal for role players like me, who have characters, which have "out of game" characteristics, which govern their behavior, abilities and interests in the game - none of my characters got a high bravery score, so they are all no heroes and because their score is just about average, they will stay mediocre - I won't ever play them like heroes or heroines therefore. As a role player I do not play by the numbers, but what my characters would be thinking - take my argonian for example, he is not that smart, but has a good understanding of nature. He knows that scales are beneficial to have, because they protect his body - a shield is kind of a very large and sturdy scale, he understands that and a large protective scale like a shield is good to have - so he chose 1h&shield and does fairly well with it, even it is not any near to be an optimal choice at all. But he is content with it and my other characters could not convince him better, because he is as well a pretty stubborn guy and advice-resistant.

If this game is played like an RPG, then it is quite entertaining in overland - played by the numbers one can easily outdo the content and then the result is, that it is no longer really fun to be in overlnnd - I get that - but whose fault is that - is it the marketing, which sold the game for something it isn't really?- Is it the mentality of those, who play an RPG like an MMO? Is at fault that the game mixed 2 incompatible players groups - role players vs. competitive players?- The game had an unclear concept from the very start and means something very different to people - incompatibly different sometimes.

Not sure what RPGs you have played but what you are describing are Japanese visual novels. If I played an RPG with no challenge (which I have) they go back to the store. RPGs and and challenge are not strangers like Baulders Gate or Ultima. Original EQ had plenty of role players but still was satisfying in the challenge department. To be honest I am not sure what kind of gamers are you people because you surely not casual. You have gone beyond to the point you really don't want an actual game. Just a cosplay arena.

I come from pen&paper role play - you know, the original old-school role play, where you are sitting around a table, with your character sheets in front of you - and game master is basically advancing the story based on player input and the rule sets used - a player is not playing himself, but the character which is described by the attributes of this character on the character sheet and decisions of the character are made by the player but based on what the character is experiencing and as based on his personality, interests, dislikes and likes, his mental abilities and as well how he is perceived by others.

If you have a character with very low charisma for example, that can have lots of reasons, he could have a disability which other people don't accept or do not want to be confronted with - and that is why he has low charisma - or he could have tourette syndrome, randomly shouting insults at people - old-school role players put a lot of thought into how their characters are and form a idea how to play this character, which is matching the character attributes on the character sheet the best.

A video game cannot really reflect this kind of role play very well yet - but it is interesting to play like this and it not like cosplay, it is not imitating something, but actually giving life to those numbers on the character sheet - in a way your avatar is a little bit like this - those stats and skills he has, define it's abilities in the game - but what it does not have is personality - it is just an empty hull whcih you are using as an avatar - it is not a character on it's very own - old-school role play gives this avatar a personality and character on it's own - it is rich game play in itself - I wouldn't want to miss it.