Play how you want...

Kryptonite_Kent

This gamestyle sounds good when you hear it... but in practice its not good for an MMO

1. Everyone can heal, so outside of a few cutting edge endgame trials and maybe some of the newer vet dungeons... no one needs a dedicated healer, cause everyone has healing
2. Everyone can stack damage mitigation, so outside of the above mentioned content again... no one has much need for an actual tank, cause everyone has excessive survival
3. Everyone can dps, so again outside of the above mentioned content... no one has to worry about pulling their weight for damage, cause everyone has a good deal of damage output

The end result of this is that content is boringly easy, and "specs" are a moot point because you barely need them and only in a few select scenarios... this not only affects pve content such as group dungeons (including some vet dungeons) that can be solod or 2 manned, but also pvp in the fact that everyone just stacks mitigation and runs around a tree for 15 minutes because they have as much healing as a healer and as much tankiness as a tank.

The solution to this is keep the "play how you want" but have direct counters to the 'spec' you're slotting... ie if youre slotting mitigation gear and sword and board you lose (x%) dps / hps, if youre slotting dps gear and dps weapons you lose (x%) mitigation / hps, and if you slot hps gear and hps weapons, you lose (x%) dps / mitigation... to a degree that actually somewhat clarifies the spec youre playing without completely taking away your ability to solo overland pve content

ADarklore

As far as I know, this "play how you want" ended YEARS ago... it was a creative slogan at one point. Even then, it has and ALWAYS WILL BE, "Play how ZOS wants you to play".

Kiralyn2000

Looking at the back of my Tamriel Unlimited-era box, it says:

Play The Way You Like
Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege, or explore.
The choice is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls world.

So, yeah. It was just ad copy, and it just meant the usual "our MMO has lots of things to do".


"Everything is easy except for endgame vet content!" is a side effect of the One Tamriel / world scaling thing. Not because "everyone can be a tank, healer, and DPS at once!"

West93

Overland content is so easy that you can play how you want and complete it with new level 3 characters.

Kryptonite_Kent

ADarklore wrote: »

As far as I know, this "play how you want" ended YEARS ago... it was a creative slogan at one point. Even then, it has and ALWAYS WILL BE, "Play how ZOS wants you to play".

Nah they are actually doubling down on "play how you want" in the next patch on Nov 1... now all gear that has weapon damage, weapon crit, weapon pen... will also have the equal amounts of spell damage, spell crit, and spell pen.

Essentially another watering down of a "spec" in the sense now that mag specs and stam specs will be moot, and there will also be a power / heal creep to go with it, because now stam users (templars for example) will be able to have enough spell damage from a weapon damage set to use the magicka heals that a spell damage user has with only a minimal loss due to less magicka (unless they just hybrid their stat pools)

This thought process leads to the "meta" cookie cutter problems this game suffers from because theres little to no variety in builds because everyone is everything

Kiralyn2000

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

As far as I know, this "play how you want" ended YEARS ago... it was a creative slogan at one point. Even then, it has and ALWAYS WILL BE, "Play how ZOS wants you to play".

Nah they are actually doubling down on "play how you want" in the next patch on Nov 1... now all gear that has weapon damage, weapon crit, weapon pen... will also have the equal amounts of spell damage, spell crit, and spell pen.

No, the point is that "play how you want" was never about spec in the first place.

Are they homogenizing things further, in some attempt at balance & "build diversity"? Sure.

But that's not what they meant by "play how you want".

ADarklore

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

As far as I know, this "play how you want" ended YEARS ago... it was a creative slogan at one point. Even then, it has and ALWAYS WILL BE, "Play how ZOS wants you to play".

Nah they are actually doubling down on "play how you want" in the next patch on Nov 1... now all gear that has weapon damage, weapon crit, weapon pen... will also have the equal amounts of spell damage, spell crit, and spell pen.

Essentially another watering down of a "spec" in the sense now that mag specs and stam specs will be moot, and there will also be a power / heal creep to go with it, because now stam users (templars for example) will be able to have enough spell damage from a weapon damage set to use the magicka heals that a spell damage user has with only a minimal loss due to less magicka (unless they just hybrid their stat pools)

This thought process leads to the "meta" cookie cutter problems this game suffers from because theres little to no variety in builds because everyone is everything

That's interesting... I guess I haven't been paying that close of attention to the changes... since players have no say in them anyway and just have to deal with the aftermath. I do like the idea of Stamplar being able to finally use some of their magicka abilities. Now will magicka users be able to wield weapons with equal damage potential?!?

Kryptonite_Kent

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

As far as I know, this "play how you want" ended YEARS ago... it was a creative slogan at one point. Even then, it has and ALWAYS WILL BE, "Play how ZOS wants you to play".

Nah they are actually doubling down on "play how you want" in the next patch on Nov 1... now all gear that has weapon damage, weapon crit, weapon pen... will also have the equal amounts of spell damage, spell crit, and spell pen.

No, the point is that "play how you want" was never about spec in the first place.

Are they homogenizing things further, in some attempt at balance & "build diversity"? Sure.

But that's not what they meant by "play how you want".

Except they literally said they are doing this because of the motto "play how you want / like (whatever it is lol)" so it does affect specs when specs are basically non existant... and no its not because of level scaling... you could solo dungeons way before level scaling came out.

Homogenizing things is the opposite of "build diversity" lol....

VaranisArano

There's plenty of need for an actual tank in PVE group content. Someone has to be able to hold boss aggro and stay alive.

Fake taunts with no taunts merely outsource their job to another groupmate - usually the healer - and then tout their own DPS after making the other DDs' job harder by letting the boss run around and out of the AOEs.

Elsonso

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Are they homogenizing things further, in some attempt at balance & "build diversity"? Sure.

They are homogenizing things because they made a couple critical design mistakes years ago that resulted in polarizing how builds are done. It is insane that we put everything into Magicka or Stamina, in the first place. Stamina morphs simply cater to the polarized builds, and now they think they can break this up with a set bonus change. Meanwhile, people are still clamoring for "stam whip", which I see as nothing more than more lipstick on the pig.

While they will never go fully homogenized, as they get closer, the effect will be that the decision between stamina and magicka will become more and more moot. The line between them begins to blur and decisions matter less.

Of course, the selling point is that this broadens build possibilities, and it does. Now your StamDK can use magicka sets and magicka whip.

Ksariyu

It's funny this topic comes up, 'cause I've actually been moderately depressed lately at how strict the holy trinity in this game is (Not really depressed, but it is kinda boring how generic end-game specs are).

I personally like that you don't NEED a healer, and realistically you shouldn't need a tank either. That to me is exactly what "play how you want" means. If you want to run with 4 self-sustaining DPS, cool, you can do that. If you want to run with 4 role-optimized players, cool, you can do that too. At the end of the day, you do have to eventually kill stuff to clear content, so naturally damage is a priority, but I think the ability to mix up how you do that damage is what makes building characters fun.

The game suffers mostly from a lack of meaningful mechanics, and that is what kills the whole "play how you want" vibe. You can put as many statistical divides as you want, but you won't notice any real difference when every character still plays exactly the same. So while I understand the agitation from the game's history of homogenization, I think it's important to remember exactly what homogenization has hurt the game. Frankly, I think the next patch is great for thematic builds. I just hope they do more under-the-hood stuff to make choices matter in more meaningful areas.

I do agree though that there's a bit of a lack in give-and-take with builds, but again, that's less to do with "play how you want" and more to do with the design of their skill system. You have a class that kind of defines your build, but not really because you can get everything your class lacks through other means. The ideas are good, just the execution needs some tweaking.

Amottica

IMO it seems to work just fine and ESO seems to be doing just fine so many seem to agree.

Also, older dungeons do seem easy but that is because of power creep. Top players will also find more content easier but that is because they excel and have learned the content. Heck, I have always found content I have figured out to be much easier.

Artim_X

Your experience is quite subjective. In trials especially with pugs you'll definitely want the support roles present. In dungeons I prefer parsing on the boss and not dodging every attack due to having aggro, especially in vet where a mistake means death.

The pros and cons of armor passives deals with some aspects of your concerns. I don't like your solutions, since it will only make the game less fun for everyone.

AcadianPaladin

PvE solo is a very legitimate way to play ESO. If it wasn't I would move to another game. As a soloist, I need to tank, heal and damage. The blending of this requirement with strict heal/tank/dps dungeon considerations is never going to work if the game goes extreme one way or the other. Heavy changes risks losing the large number of solo players or the equally large number of group players. Can't attract/retain both styles of play with a one size fits all solution.

Stx

What's wrong with not needing a dedicated healer or tank? If you want to only play pure trinity roles, there are plenty of other MMOs.

I think its really fun to play a healer where I can dps in my downtime. Playing as more of a hybrid and contributing to group dps via buffs and personal dps is part of what makes a great healer great.

Every game in existence has a meta. That's just how games work. Play how you want is just a slogan. No matter what changes they make to the game, there will always be meta builds, and off meta builds.

VaranisArano

Ksariyu wrote: »

It's funny this topic comes up, 'cause I've actually been moderately depressed lately at how strict the holy trinity in this game is (Not really depressed, but it is kinda boring how generic end-game specs are).

I personally like that you don't NEED a healer, and realistically you shouldn't need a tank either. That to me is exactly what "play how you want" means. If you want to run with 4 self-sustaining DPS, cool, you can do that. If you want to run with 4 role-optimized players, cool, you can do that too. At the end of the day, you do have to eventually kill stuff to clear content, so naturally damage is a priority, but I think the ability to mix up how you do that damage is what makes building characters fun.

The game suffers mostly from a lack of meaningful mechanics, and that is what kills the whole "play how you want" vibe. You can put as many statistical divides as you want, but you won't notice any real difference when every character still plays exactly the same. So while I understand the agitation from the game's history of homogenization, I think it's important to remember exactly what homogenization has hurt the game. Frankly, I think the next patch is great for thematic builds. I just hope they do more under-the-hood stuff to make choices matter in more meaningful areas.

I do agree though that there's a bit of a lack in give-and-take with builds, but again, that's less to do with "play how you want" and more to do with the design of their skill system. You have a class that kind of defines your build, but not really because you can get everything your class lacks through other means. The ideas are good, just the execution needs some tweaking.

You know, you usually can run 4 DDs. It's a rotten thing to do in groupfinder to randoms who aren't expecting it. But in a pre-made group? Go for it!

Of course, the flip side is that you all have to be prepared. My experience was that the extra boss movement when no one runs a taunt decreased the group's DPS to the point that the difference with an extra DD was negligible. Worse, when the boss aggroed a DD who suddenly wasn't confident they could handle boss aggro and survive, they ran around, making the problem worse. My DD equipped a taunt, and "tanked" the rest of the dungeon.

There's a reason why the "ideal" roles for prepared players are 1 tank + 3DDs. It's not because the roles are super strict. It's because the boss needs to stay more or less still in order to maximize DPS, and thus you need someone who can taunt and survive.

Gilvoth

ADarklore wrote: »

As far as I know, this "play how you want" ended YEARS ago... it was a creative slogan at one point. Even then, it has and ALWAYS WILL BE, "Play how ZOS wants you to play".

Exactly the Truth,
and i know for fact im not alone in that i Hate it is that way here in eso.

Wuuffyy

Only 1 of three of those points are true.

Ippokrates

But we already have those "direct counters". Check armour passives. Also, lack of bonuses to crit, dmg or sustain is also a counter.

Also, i am playing how i want. Making silly builds, running with them through solo dungs (even HM) & arenas (also DSA & BRP), playing as a tank with Tormentor & Void Bash on vet dlc dungs, even running stamhealer into trials. And it is a lot of fun, not boring, cause everytime i am using different skill, sets or weapon. And on some builds sometimes i struggle, like with Crown boss - then the fun is the best.

So don't play always the same build, experiment, and eso would be less boring and easy.

Franchise408

Stx wrote: »

What's wrong with not needing a dedicated healer or tank? If you want to only play pure trinity roles, there are plenty of other MMOs.

I think its really fun to play a healer where I can dps in my downtime. Playing as more of a hybrid and contributing to group dps via buffs and personal dps is part of what makes a great healer great.

Every game in existence has a meta. That's just how games work. Play how you want is just a slogan. No matter what changes they make to the game, there will always be meta builds, and off meta builds.

The problem isn't the existence of meta.

The problem is game design that caters to that meta, making the meta more and more necessary as newer content comes out.

The game, as it stands, currently doesn't require a "meta" to complete any of the content in the game. But it is close enough to the edge that in order to participate in end game content with the vast majority of organized end game groups, you will need to be playing meta simply to participate.

I don't mind the fact that meta is necessary for leaderboards or things like that. But the game is designed in such a way that it's real close to needing meta simply to participate. And that's where the problem comes.

buttaface

There is plenty of more difficult content overland, so no idea why people keep posting that misinformation over and over. I'll wager that those who blithely post that repetitively do not do geysers, harrowstorms, world bosses, craglorn type world event bosses, arenas, solo group delves and dungeons, etc. Will also wager that many who post that claim have never set foot in any PvP. Anyone who claims many of those things are "too easy" solo is lying.

Yes, the basic questlines in the game need to be easy enough or the game would go out of business. I can list several excellent MMO type games, some much better than ESO with PvE that was "too hard" for the masses and you can't play them now because they are defunct. I'd rather play a game that is still running personally than dream about how good games were that went out of business.

newtinmpls

buttaface wrote: »

I can list several excellent MMO type games, some much better than ESO with PvE that was "too hard" for the masses and you can't play them now because they are defunct. I'd rather play a game that is still running personally than dream about how good games were that went out of business.

I like this point; also this one:

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

PvE solo is a very legitimate way to play ESO. If it wasn't I would move to another game. As a soloist, I need to tank, heal and damage.

When queuing for a random dungeon I sign up for and accept responsibility to perform a role - the role I signed up for.

When playing solo -or with friends - or with a pre-made group I have choices to use those roles/guidelines or to come up with a new pattern.

Ksariyu

VaranisArano wrote: »

You know, you usually can run 4 DDs. It's a rotten thing to do in groupfinder to randoms who aren't expecting it. But in a pre-made group? Go for it!

Of course, the flip side is that you all have to be prepared. My experience was that the extra boss movement when no one runs a taunt decreased the group's DPS to the point that the difference with an extra DD was negligible. Worse, when the boss aggroed a DD who suddenly wasn't confident they could handle boss aggro and survive, they ran around, making the problem worse. My DD equipped a taunt, and "tanked" the rest of the dungeon.

There's a reason why the "ideal" roles for prepared players are 1 tank + 3DDs. It's not because the roles are super strict. It's because the boss needs to stay more or less still in order to maximize DPS, and thus you need someone who can taunt and survive.

I know, and I think it's cool that you can. I do realize that for many groups the tank's sole job is to keep mobs together and in one place. Unfortunately I think that's a bit to do with how prevalent ground-based DoTs are, and the fact that AoE damage is so close in efficiency to single-target which encourages players to use it even for single-target boss fights. Of course, any group comp is allowed as long as your group agrees ahead of time, but sadly I find there's few people in the game who are willing to spend the time to make non-traditional comps work, and as a result the requirements for even the most basic of trial groups are quite restrictive.

Kryptonite_Kent

buttaface wrote: »

There is plenty of more difficult content overland, so no idea why people keep posting that misinformation over and over. I'll wager that those who blithely post that repetitively do not do geysers, harrowstorms, world bosses, craglorn type world event bosses, arenas, solo group delves and dungeons, etc. Will also wager that many who post that claim have never set foot in any PvP. Anyone who claims many of those things are "too easy" solo is lying.

Yes, the basic questlines in the game need to be easy enough or the game would go out of business. I can list several excellent MMO type games, some much better than ESO with PvE that was "too hard" for the masses and you can't play them now because they are defunct. I'd rather play a game that is still running personally than dream about how good games were that went out of business.

Yeah no... none of that stuff is hard, at all, the closest thing to being "difficult" solo is Vet Maelstrom Arena

Stx

I would say soloing harrowstorms are harder than vma, but thats just my opinion. I also haven't done a harrowstorm in awhile so maybe they have been nerfed? Also soloing dragons is pretty tough.

I agree that most overland content is very easy.

belial5221_ESO

ADarklore wrote: »

As far as I know, this "play how you want" ended YEARS ago... it was a creative slogan at one point. Even then, it has and ALWAYS WILL BE, "Play how ZOS wants you to play".

I play how I want,if others don't want me in their group ,not gonna hurt me.Plenty of others that will group and do trials,etc.I don't use meta build/rotation and can still solo most content with no issue.

Most overland was never meant to be too hard,cause new players need to be able to complete things.If it's too hard at beginning you lose players.So they balanced it to where non-vet can do most content and learn the controls,mechanics,setups without dying alot.

The main problem is the elitist players who want to speed through everything,not the builds/setup you can use.If anything is too hard,they complain about needing better gear,or to nerf content.If it's too easy they want buffed content,or nerfed gear.It's a never ending cycle with all games.

Azurya

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

This gamestyle sounds good when you hear it... but in practice its not good for an MMO

1. Everyone can heal, so outside of a few cutting edge endgame trials and maybe some of the newer vet dungeons... no one needs a dedicated healer, cause everyone has healing
2. Everyone can stack damage mitigation, so outside of the above mentioned content again... no one has much need for an actual tank, cause everyone has excessive survival
3. Everyone can dps, so again outside of the above mentioned content... no one has to worry about pulling their weight for damage, cause everyone has a good deal of damage output

The end result of this is that content is boringly easy, and "specs" are a moot point because you barely need them and only in a few select scenarios... this not only affects pve content such as group dungeons (including some vet dungeons) that can be solod or 2 manned, but also pvp in the fact that everyone just stacks mitigation and runs around a tree for 15 minutes because they have as much healing as a healer and as much tankiness as a tank.

The solution to this is keep the "play how you want" but have direct counters to the 'spec' you're slotting... ie if youre slotting mitigation gear and sword and board you lose (x%) dps / hps, if youre slotting dps gear and dps weapons you lose (x%) mitigation / hps, and if you slot hps gear and hps weapons, you lose (x%) dps / mitigation... to a degree that actually somewhat clarifies the spec youre playing without completely taking away your ability to solo overland pve content

Exactly because of this I put my 2 healers and 1 tank to rest, they are now carries for unused items, very good.
I did tanking and healing with much addiction but it is not really needed. When joining a raid by the guild, it is all done by the last 2 tanks and healing only in hardmode needed, so yeah pretty much the end of the journey. I do must dungeons alone, most is do-able.

Syrpynt

I definitely think the roles should be more defined. In solo/overland content, it should matter as much if roles hybridize. I simply think that the "peaks and valleys" between each role isn't divided enough to make roles a necessary thing to complete content. In defense of this: It is likely because there aren't enough tanks or healers playing to divide the rift further. Which is sad, because I do like tanking. But toxic dps in PUGs and constantly trying to duel me on my tank is annoying. They know full well I would lose.

Anyway. I think that ZoS can hybridize the weapon/spell damage and criticals, but healing critical and potency needs to be separated from damage critical and potency. Otherwise players will always be able to heal through anything that isn't a 1 shot.

VaranisArano

buttaface wrote: »

There is plenty of more difficult content overland, so no idea why people keep posting that misinformation over and over. I'll wager that those who blithely post that repetitively do not do geysers, harrowstorms, world bosses, craglorn type world event bosses, arenas, solo group delves and dungeons, etc. Will also wager that many who post that claim have never set foot in any PvP. Anyone who claims many of those things are "too easy" solo is lying.

Yes, the basic questlines in the game need to be easy enough or the game would go out of business. I can list several excellent MMO type games, some much better than ESO with PvE that was "too hard" for the masses and you can't play them now because they are defunct. I'd rather play a game that is still running personally than dream about how good games were that went out of business.

I could do Geysers, Harrowstorms, world bosses, etc.

But that doesn't solve the problem of dissatisfaction when the ultra powerful daedric champion, doped-up-on-godhood dragon, or fought-a-god-to-a-standstill vampire lord who's been been hyped the whole year long goes down like a chump.

A lot of the criticism is that questing is too easy, and moreover, too easy for the narrative stakes we're supposed to care about.

As for "It's gotta be easy", I'd love an optional difficulty setting for the final boss fights, without even asking for extra rewards.

Vevvev

VaranisArano wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

There is plenty of more difficult content overland, so no idea why people keep posting that misinformation over and over. I'll wager that those who blithely post that repetitively do not do geysers, harrowstorms, world bosses, craglorn type world event bosses, arenas, solo group delves and dungeons, etc. Will also wager that many who post that claim have never set foot in any PvP. Anyone who claims many of those things are "too easy" solo is lying.

Yes, the basic questlines in the game need to be easy enough or the game would go out of business. I can list several excellent MMO type games, some much better than ESO with PvE that was "too hard" for the masses and you can't play them now because they are defunct. I'd rather play a game that is still running personally than dream about how good games were that went out of business.

I could do Geysers, Harrowstorms, world bosses, etc.

But that doesn't solve the problem of dissatisfaction when the ultra powerful daedric champion, doped-up-on-godhood dragon, or fought-a-god-to-a-standstill vampire lord who's been been hyped the whole year long goes down like a chump.

A lot of the criticism is that questing is too easy, and moreover, too easy for the narrative stakes we're supposed to care about.

As for "It's gotta be easy", I'd love an optional difficulty setting for the final boss fights, without even asking for extra rewards.

Undaunted scroll of colorful insults Hard mode on story bosses when, ZOS?

Ippokrates

VaranisArano wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

There is plenty of more difficult content overland, so no idea why people keep posting that misinformation over and over. I'll wager that those who blithely post that repetitively do not do geysers, harrowstorms, world bosses, craglorn type world event bosses, arenas, solo group delves and dungeons, etc. Will also wager that many who post that claim have never set foot in any PvP. Anyone who claims many of those things are "too easy" solo is lying.

Yes, the basic questlines in the game need to be easy enough or the game would go out of business. I can list several excellent MMO type games, some much better than ESO with PvE that was "too hard" for the masses and you can't play them now because they are defunct. I'd rather play a game that is still running personally than dream about how good games were that went out of business.

I could do Geysers, Harrowstorms, world bosses, etc.

But that doesn't solve the problem of dissatisfaction when the ultra powerful daedric champion, doped-up-on-godhood dragon, or fought-a-god-to-a-standstill vampire lord who's been been hyped the whole year long goes down like a chump.

A lot of the criticism is that questing is too easy, and moreover, too easy for the narrative stakes we're supposed to care about.

As for "It's gotta be easy", I'd love an optional difficulty setting for the final boss fights, without even asking for extra rewards.

Well, that is the issue of the whole TES series - if you start an adventure from buffing your hero, you will have really easy time while fighting end bosses. At least in Morrowind and Skyrim. Oblivion is little bit different because of scaling (and many people complain about its difficullty ^^ ).

But sure, hardmode for solo zones during quests would be nice. Also, remember that not all questlines are so easy. If i remember correctly, Markhart had really nice end boss. But Markhart is awesome in general