The Concept of Seperating Race from Racials.

BlueRaven

Ippokrates wrote: »

Sure, Bosmers are natural born thieves. You know who also has similar description through all TES games? Khajiits. Plus the fact they are great acrobats. And nobody have an issue that in ESO Khajiits are versatile race with bonuses to all stats: stamina, magicka and even health.

Now, in previous TES games we had rather one dimentional perception of Bosmers, mainly as a scouts and thieves. But tell me, honestly, did you completed Valenwood zones stories? And if yes, once you learn about Bosmers everyday life, the Green Pact and Bosmer almost mystical relation to the nature, you still think that they are pure and simple stamina toons?

I answered this on the first page.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Another issue is that the races are not very pliable for builds.

Argonians should have assassins, Nords and Bosmers have mages, but you would not know that by their current racial passives.

It’s hard to sit here and fight for the integrity of traditional hard coded racials, when zos themselves keeps doing them so badly.

I get that some of the races have similar vibes but in different racial wrappers. (That is still no excuse from what they did.) But I can make an argument that Bretons, and Altmer are both great spell caster races but also different, and that gets at least some thought by the developers.

(Not that I am defending either of those race passives either [particularly altmers]. Just because I did not go into it in that mega post don’t think I am ok with them.)

They could have given Bosmers a different type of stealth bonus, and also they could have given Bosmers a bonus to all ranged attacks, for example.

BlueRaven

KalyanLazair wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

So why should we as players treat the eso race passives as sacrosanct? In many ways they are just wrong to the lore (and are unbalanced in gameplay as well). So why defend what we have? Sure we can HOPE that someone in the dev team sits back and figures this out, and we get ACTUAL racial passives that are based on the ES franchise and that are also balanced. But how realistic is that?

So what does it matter if someone at zos chooses them or we do? If they are going to be wrong, let them be wrong but at least something we like.

Your analysis is good, but what you're getting fundamentally wrong is that those of us against the OP's idea are not against it because we're defending those passives. We're against it because we're against diluting all races into a blob of purely cosmetic Sims like characters. We're defending the concept of races having different traits, not the traits themselves.

OP wants racial traits to be completely optional so he can boost his argonian with whatever traits would make his build good in trials. I say no because traditional RPGs (not ES specifically, but RPGs themselves) have a tactical element in build creation which implies racial strengths and weaknesses, and while your analysis is superb, it is not really an argument in favor of OP's idea, nor does it invalidate the arguments of those against it. It's, how to put it, a completely different topic.

(I am very tired so forgive me if I am not very clear.)

If you play Skyrim, when you reach the max level of your skill tree, you are basically as good as any race in any skill.

An imperial maxing out archery and stealth is as good as any bosmer in those traits for example. While in turn the bosmer would not be better then that imperial. The two would be basically even. All the skills stop at 100, Bosmers don’t go to “110”.

So at max level all of the races basically come pretty close to evening out. Nords can be brilliant spell casters. Bretons can be great assassins. Etc.

In the end in Skyrim the “hard coded” racials don’t matter. Only the.”Special abilities” become of any import and I can argue many of them are pretty open ended build wise. (Is the Nords battle cry and frost resist only good for melee builds? Not really.).Yeah some are good for some roles, but more often then not the Special abilities are pretty universal, build wise.

So in eso, so what if a player chooses something completely off the wall (racial trait wise) for their argonian. What we have now is off the wall, and we did not get to choose it.

And if all the races start playing about the same at max level, then that too is only ES tradition.

As far as I am concerned what ever a player picks could not be more lore unfriendly then what is currently in game, so who cares? If the developers had been better at this, then I would be against the OP’s idea, but as it stands now… 🤷🏻‍♂️
At least with the “build your own” racial trait idea I can make something that feels like the races in ES lore.

KalyanLazair

BlueRaven wrote: »

KalyanLazair wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

So why should we as players treat the eso race passives as sacrosanct? In many ways they are just wrong to the lore (and are unbalanced in gameplay as well). So why defend what we have? Sure we can HOPE that someone in the dev team sits back and figures this out, and we get ACTUAL racial passives that are based on the ES franchise and that are also balanced. But how realistic is that?

So what does it matter if someone at zos chooses them or we do? If they are going to be wrong, let them be wrong but at least something we like.

Your analysis is good, but what you're getting fundamentally wrong is that those of us against the OP's idea are not against it because we're defending those passives. We're against it because we're against diluting all races into a blob of purely cosmetic Sims like characters. We're defending the concept of races having different traits, not the traits themselves.

OP wants racial traits to be completely optional so he can boost his argonian with whatever traits would make his build good in trials. I say no because traditional RPGs (not ES specifically, but RPGs themselves) have a tactical element in build creation which implies racial strengths and weaknesses, and while your analysis is superb, it is not really an argument in favor of OP's idea, nor does it invalidate the arguments of those against it. It's, how to put it, a completely different topic.

(I am very tired so forgive me if I am not very clear.)

If you play Skyrim, when you reach the max level of your skill tree, you are basically as good as any race in any skill.

An imperial maxing out archery and stealth is as good as any bosmer in those traits for example. While in turn the bosmer would not be better then that imperial. The two would be basically even. All the skills stop at 100, Bosmers don’t go to “110”.

So at max level all of the races basically come pretty close to evening out. Nords can be brilliant spell casters. Bretons can be great assassins. Etc.

In the end in Skyrim the “hard coded” racials don’t matter. Only the.”Special abilities” become of any import and I can argue many of them are pretty open ended build wise. (Is the Nords battle cry and frost resist only good for melee builds? Not really.).Yeah some are good for some roles, but more often then not the Special abilities are pretty universal, build wise.

So in eso, so what if a player chooses something completely off the wall (racial trait wise) for their argonian. What we have now is off the wall, and we did not get to choose it.

And if all the races start playing about the same at max level, then that too is only ES tradition.

As far as I am concerned what ever a player picks could not be more lore unfriendly then what is currently in game, so who cares? If the developers had been better at this, then I would be against the OP’s idea, but as it stands now… 🤷🏻‍♂️
At least with the “build your own” racial trait idea I can make something that feels like the races in ES lore.

In D&D elves can see rather well in utter darkness, which gives them an advantage over humans that need to use either potions, spells or a good old fashioned torch.

Skyrim is an awful example as examples get because RPG wise it's already watered down enough. Whether it is lore friendly or not, I insist, that is not the issue here.

Anyways, these discussions are irrelevant. Whether the devs decide to make this happen or not, it won't be because some guy asked in the forums. If the game is watered down it won't affect my life in the very least, and if it is not, the result will be identical. I might be a little sad that videogame RPGs are made more simple each time to appeal to the mass and boost sales, but I'll move on to something else like I've always been doing. Don't like western series? I'll just go watch something else, like anime. Don't like videogame RPGs? I'll go play something else, or stick to tabletop RPG (you can't turn off the servers of a 20 year old D&D book).

Kiralyn2000

Something to remember in these multi-"race" RPGs, is that they're species, not "races" as the word is used in regards to IRL branches of humanity. They should be different.

But beyond that...

"Why can't I be a Nord Great Mage like Shalidor?"

Two answers:
1) You can! A max level character with great gear, great stats, great skills, great rotation, etc... is a "great mage". Just because it's a couple % less DPS than some other player can reach with a different species doesn't mean you aren't "great" in comparison to all those random NPCs out there.

2) You can't, because no-one can! It's the concept of Gameplay & Story Segregation - Things that work in the lore/story, don't work in the actual gameplay, because the lore doesn't have to be balanced to be a good game. So the greatest NPCs will always be better/different/etc than any player could ever be. Because they don't have a level cap, or skill caps, or 'standard racial bonuses', or any of those things. NPCs in cutscenes & stories don't have to abide by the game rules, because they're not player characters. Shalidor will always be more awesome than you, because he isn't stuck with your gameplay limitations! On the other hand, he's not the PC, so he can't save the world.

(similar to how a boss fight can be super easy, and then lead into a cutscene of how He's Too Strong! We Can't Beat Him! Because the story cares not for your uber stats & broken gear combos.)

VaranisArano

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

We have Dark Elves marrying Argonians in this game. So why couldn't an Altmer be part Bosmer and get a line of Stamina?

1 stat line dependent on selected race and 1 chosen by the player would be fine imo. Not that the system needs changing.

In the lore, that's not really how the racial bonuses work. Children of interracial marriages typically follow the race and bonus of the mother, with some appearance from the father. It takes generations and generations of interbreeding to produce something like the "mam-mer" Bretons, not just one coupling.

And as for 1 stat line for race/ 1 stat line chosen, we already have that: race + switchable Mundus Stones (which replaced the old Birthsigns chosen at character creation.) Do we need another bonus players can choose?

Parasaurolophus

don't want the character's race to be just cosmetic. However, while the importance of race is no longer as strong as it used to be, it is still quite strong for support roles and in pvp. I suggest making three or two minor passives for each race, which would be useful in different roles. For example Breton:
1) 7% reduction in the cost of all abilities
2) + n to resource
3) + 5% to received healing.

Mesite

I don't get this whole stealthy Bosmer problem. Press that key that makes them crouch. Problem solved. Quaff a potion if npcs still see you. Although I have to admit I played an Argonian in Skyrim because their self-healing power was a game changer.

I still can't get over the fact that people want developers to change games because they don't like a few aspects. You can't do it with chess, so why do it with MMOs? I just play the game the way its made. It must waste so much of the developers time. What do the developers think?

Pauwer

The bosmer stealth problem is an issue in pvp. The old racial passives of bosmer were definitely better.

But overall i like different racial skills and they should not be removed.

However, if you make all races look like bosmer, i'd play them

colossalvoids

Mesite wrote: »

I don't get this whole stealthy Bosmer problem. Press that key that makes them crouch. Problem solved. Quaff a potion if npcs still see you. Although I have to admit I played an Argonian in Skyrim because their self-healing power was a game changer.

Guess people always fixated on some particular part they like the most and think it's some universal trait everyone should agree upon. I'm personally fine with them being quick ("thanks" for their speed nerf zos) rather than stealthy as this niche for me always was more khajiiti than bosmeri.

emilyhyoyeon

colossalvoids wrote: »

Mesite wrote: »

I don't get this whole stealthy Bosmer problem. Press that key that makes them crouch. Problem solved. Quaff a potion if npcs still see you. Although I have to admit I played an Argonian in Skyrim because their self-healing power was a game changer.

Guess people always fixated on some particular part they like the most and think it's some universal trait everyone should agree upon. I'm personally fine with them being quick ("thanks" for their speed nerf zos) rather than stealthy as this niche for me always was more khajiiti than bosmeri.

I always took the difference between khajiit and bosmer stealthiness where khajiit are more assassin-stealthy and bosmer are more thief-stealthy. Both are mix obviously but from my playing of the games I would distinguish them generally like that.

As a side note argonians are also supposed to be very stealthy but ZOS turned that completely on its head and now people think argonians are natural tank-healers

colossalvoids

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Mesite wrote: »

I don't get this whole stealthy Bosmer problem. Press that key that makes them crouch. Problem solved. Quaff a potion if npcs still see you. Although I have to admit I played an Argonian in Skyrim because their self-healing power was a game changer.

Guess people always fixated on some particular part they like the most and think it's some universal trait everyone should agree upon. I'm personally fine with them being quick ("thanks" for their speed nerf zos) rather than stealthy as this niche for me always was more khajiiti than bosmeri.

I always took the difference between khajiit and bosmer stealthiness where khajiit are more assassin-stealthy and bosmer are more thief-stealthy. Both are mix obviously but from my playing of the games I would distinguish them generally like that.
As a side note argonians are also supposed to be very stealthy.

I personally saw khajiit as a thief partially because their necessity to do so in those games plus all the Rajhin mythos part, apart from most bosmeri that were hunters and archers but that's a personal perspective. Zos just picked some traits portion of people didn't like, same as argonian that were more of an assassin archetype for me but a lackluster heal in eso. Can find issues with most races honestly and think they got only dunmer completely right.

Anyway they're trying to make racials to matter less but still be present and matter for min-maxing at the very top so the less loaded / distinctive they are the better for balance in their opinion. Their pick caused some controversy but that doesn't really says that it's "not lore friendly". Bad perhaps (redguard especially) but that's another story eh.

Franchise408

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this.

On the one hand:

-For end-game content, the current setup allows for no variety. Nord for tanking, Orc for stam DPS, High Elf for mag DPS,, and probably Argonian or Breton for healer.

-It discourages creative or individualized character design, which is the crux of Elder Scrolls gameplay. In TES, while races may have certain advantages in specific areas, they equate mainly to a "head start" rather than a min / max "best choice". I.E. in Morrowind, a Wood Elf might be +15 in Marksman, but that is only to the starting stat. The Wood Elf still only has a max cap of 100, not 115, so at the end of the day, a Breton can be just as good a Marksman as a Wood Elf, it will just take more time and effort. In ESO, this is not possible, as the races actually give you an increase to max stat, meaning that a High Elf will *always* do more magicka damage than a Redguard, even tho in the single player TES games, the Redguard can become equally competent as the High Elf, just with more time.

On the other hand:

-The racial bonuses have a precedent in TES gameplay and lore, and are a big part of the character design.

-If you took them out, it wouldn't effectively change much, as people would just pick the passives that equate to the best races they are already currently using, and so effectively everything stays the same, just with different skins.

What I really want to see is gameplay design that can encourage varying types of strategies to accomplish tasks, rather than just spreadsheeting the most optimal damage output and rolling with that. In Skyrim, stealth archer might have been the "meta", but any other playstyle was also valid. I played as a Breton, dual wielding, necromancy using warrior tank mage. As a Breton, I used magicka to boost my tankiness with self healing, damage barriers, or my minions. As a melee-range warrior, I could use the zombies or spirits I summon to attack from range. I might not have the stealth + ranged efficiency as a stealth archer, but I could use the tools at my disposal to fulfill the tasks I was looking to accomplish.

In ESO, it's just "find the highest damage output, and pick the race / skill / gear that maximizes that damage output at the expense of all else"

*yawn*

If the game mechanics were designed in a way to enable more than one way to accomplish a goal, then maybe you could find ways to make off-meta builds more attractive.

Magio_

I always thought that the player character being a soulless entity and not tying obtaining certain Racial Passives to that in some way was a wasted opportunity for the unique hero of this game. Why does the Altmer Vestige have to be like every other Altmer in Tamriel?

It would make the player character, the Vestige, very special if they were able to obtain their preferred racial passives at will through some sort of ritual, similar to unlocking the Vampire Skill Line. Something like: murder an Argonian and take their soul with a Soul Gem and then do a short RP quest to make your Racial Passives that of an Argonian. This way, the Altmer-looking character can have whichever passives they want.

Something like this would allow players to min-max while being able to customize their character's appearance to their preference. It's really bad for customization having to be a certain race to min-max a character's power. It's fine for the Single Players games, but before people bring that up you have to remember this is an MMO where you're competing with other players. Even then, if some people want the "correct" passives for their race, they would still be able to have that.

After all, play how you want, right?

Eormenric

Alright, @BloodyStigmata is the only person to touch on the real option here: Polymorphs.

If you like looking like a lizard, but don't want the genetic predisposition of them, then a polymorph is the way to go. That can easily be expanded upon. Polymorphs for each race with full customization options. They could have some entity in the game be known for making very convincing disguises in order to blend in with the locales. Customize a unique polymorph from their master workers and boom. Done. I do think racial polymorphs would be hugely successful.

JJOtterBear

newtinmpls wrote: »

I came here to play ESO, not to play a generisized bland min-max fest.

I like that race matters.... I also appreciate that the higher my skill as a player, the less it matters.

wait! this game requires skill...



(this is meant in good fun and not in a condescending way)

MreeBiPolar

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I always took the difference between khajiit and bosmer stealthiness where khajiit are more assassin-stealthy and bosmer are more thief-stealthy. Both are mix obviously but from my playing of the games I would distinguish them generally like that.

Funny, but I always thought it makes infinitely more sense the other way around.

Khajiit: urbanistic culture, put a lot of value on fancy stuff, worship the trickster epic hero.
Bosmer: hunter-not-gatherer culture, generally prefer more simple things, cannibalistic with a mandatory custom of devouring slain foes.

Which of those are more likely to rob you blind, which are likely to slit your throat?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Other than a high end trial group as a DPS, I just don't subscribe to the notion that you are being "massively gimped."

As a DPS, you have the least flexibility in gear and setup. Build X is objectively better or worse than build Y. That is really not true for the most part for virtually all other content. Sure, some races are certainly better than others for a given task, but that is how it's always been in ESO and ES games, and the differences are usually very small. Even as a DPS, it is like 5% or so, maybe a few K damage. If not going for leader boards, it simply doesn't matter.

Your arguments against that notion are not convincing to me. In fact, I think you could do a lot worse than an Argonian as a 1vXer where sustain is really important.

karekiz

Would rather see the game go Classless before this.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Or they could just buff Argonian racials. We all know that is what this thread is really about anyways.

GIVE ARGONIAN'S THEIR INSANE SPEED RIGHT NOW! FASTEST RACE IN TAMRIEL DOESN'T GET A SPEED BONUS, BUT ORCS(the slowest race) GET ONE INSTEAD. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Argonians get:
+15 athletics and 50 speed in morrowind
+10 athletics and 50 speed in oblivion
Record setting speed! Absolute chads on a race track. WE CAN RUN LAPS AND CIRCLES AROUND THOSE OBESE GREEN WASTES OF A RACE.


fat orcs get:
+0 athletics and 30 speed in Morrowind
+0 athletics and 30 speed in oblivion
Wow that is slow. Orcs are honestly pathetic and should get some exercise asap. There is genuinely no slower or fatter race in all of Tamriel. Even a Sload could out run an Orc.

Zos is wrong. Zos is wrong. I am right.

Orcs can keep their stolen sprint bonus because I feel bad at how slow and fat they are. I will allow them to think they are fast for 1 game. Argonians however should have that stupid healing bonus removed and replace it with a 12%(more then orc because we are fastest) movement speed bonus at all times. Stealth, walking, jogging, sprinting, running and swimming all should be 12% faster on an Argonian. THE LORE DEMANDS IT.

Nanfoodle

TES was a real RP game. The choices you made changed the game and how you could interact with it. Its a big part of the replay value. ESO has very little of that. I really hope they stick to their guns on race traits and disregard the OP and any other thread like this.

gariondavey

Lmao. Heck no.

This is elder scrolls.

Nord_Raseri

Changing a core element of a videogame franchise = "Ending Racism Forever"? We are going. To change. the WORLD!

Tandor

As a TES player since 1994, and a role-playing gamer for some 10 years before that, just no.

TaeRai

No.

Racism exists as a valid plot-point to TES series. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. Racism is bad, yes, but this isn't IRL where we can fight it and change the world. It's a video game. There is no racism in this game SAVE for stories and MINOR ingame dialouge.

Also Argonians are the best race for tanking and healing, your argument is bad.

wolfie1.0.

BlueRaven wrote: »

“

VaranisArano wrote: »

No, and none of your counterarguments are particularly convincing.

Race and the racial tendencies to certain archetypes are a consistent part of the lore of The Elder Scrolls, even if the gameplay representations of that have changed from game to game. That's true over and above whatever special talents the player character have. Consider how distinct the naturally high magic skills of the Altmer make them from the warriors of Hammerfell throughout the TES series, or how the Khajiit propensity for stealth leads to a cultural stigma as Thieves that isn't shared by other races, even though we know that NPCs of every race can be gifted Thieves.

This is a roleplaying game. Part of TES roleplaying is playing as a member of a certain race, even if the racial bonuses aren't completely consistent from game to game. I don't know if you've ever played D&D, but this is basically the equivalent of telling the DM, "Hey, I want to play an Elf, but can I not take the stat plus/minuses that elves get, but instead take the extra feats humans get because I want them?"

It's also worth noting the impact of racial bonuses on roleplay. When ESO took away the stealth passive from Bosmer, who've traditionally been stealthy in the lore and past games, a number of players complained they felt there weren't playing a real bosmer anymore. That's a testament to the identity that these racial bonuses give to the roleplaying experience. Sure, one could say "Oh, well, now you can just steal the Khajiit stealth passive!" That's, ah, not really the point.

And "ends racism" is ridiculous in ESO when two alliances are literally based on their three races overcoming their cultural antipathy for each other. TES racism strongly informs the plot and worldbuilding of Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Skyrim. It's very much a part of the setting, worldbuilding, and the lore. Ironically, if you do away with the substantive racial differences entirely, you render TES racism solely about appearance, when it never has been before.

So while I can understand the gripes about how ESO races are implemented such that there's inevitably a BIS racial choice for certain builds and roles...the lore of The Elder Scrolls is such that there are substantive differences between the races that drive many of the conflicts shown in the games.


Finally, it's a surefire way to bias your poll when you preemptively tell the people who disagree with your counterarguments to "stop talking & be quiet for several days."

Your arguments about lore don’t sway me when the eso combat team gets the lore so wrong.

-Which race is supposed to be tanks? (Hint: Its not nords nor argonians.)

-Which race is supposed to be leather armor berserkers? (Hint: Its not orcs.)

-And which is the stealthiest race? (Hint: Its not kahjiit.) in fact in eso imperials have better stealth passives then Bosmers do.

Justify that in lore, in eso why are imperials better at stealth than Bosmers?

The weird part is the narrative half of the game gets it more or less right. But it’s like the combat team works on a different game with much different lore.

So it’s hard for me to sit here and support traditional hard coded racial traits when zos themselves appears to care so little about the lore behind them. Is getting the lore wrong solely the combat teams purview?
Make the racials more pliable if we are just playing fast and loose with the lore anyway, at least in will possibly break the race meta and make players a bit more happy.

So.... you trust the same team that screwed up racial passives to allow you to pick your own ones to do it in such a way that they won't screw that up as well?

I mean as far as I am concerned racial passives should be trivial things like that all so very useful extra swim speed argonians get. Or that khajiit get extra light attack damage when they don't have a weapon equipped. Something menial.

But if you want to go down the route of picking your own. Fine whatever let zos do it. Then a week after implementation we will all be back here on the forums complaining about how xyz racial passive combo is OP and be listening to criess of doom and nerfdom.

BlueRaven

H

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“

VaranisArano wrote: »

No, and none of your counterarguments are particularly convincing.

Race and the racial tendencies to certain archetypes are a consistent part of the lore of The Elder Scrolls, even if the gameplay representations of that have changed from game to game. That's true over and above whatever special talents the player character have. Consider how distinct the naturally high magic skills of the Altmer make them from the warriors of Hammerfell throughout the TES series, or how the Khajiit propensity for stealth leads to a cultural stigma as Thieves that isn't shared by other races, even though we know that NPCs of every race can be gifted Thieves.

This is a roleplaying game. Part of TES roleplaying is playing as a member of a certain race, even if the racial bonuses aren't completely consistent from game to game. I don't know if you've ever played D&D, but this is basically the equivalent of telling the DM, "Hey, I want to play an Elf, but can I not take the stat plus/minuses that elves get, but instead take the extra feats humans get because I want them?"

It's also worth noting the impact of racial bonuses on roleplay. When ESO took away the stealth passive from Bosmer, who've traditionally been stealthy in the lore and past games, a number of players complained they felt there weren't playing a real bosmer anymore. That's a testament to the identity that these racial bonuses give to the roleplaying experience. Sure, one could say "Oh, well, now you can just steal the Khajiit stealth passive!" That's, ah, not really the point.

And "ends racism" is ridiculous in ESO when two alliances are literally based on their three races overcoming their cultural antipathy for each other. TES racism strongly informs the plot and worldbuilding of Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Skyrim. It's very much a part of the setting, worldbuilding, and the lore. Ironically, if you do away with the substantive racial differences entirely, you render TES racism solely about appearance, when it never has been before.

So while I can understand the gripes about how ESO races are implemented such that there's inevitably a BIS racial choice for certain builds and roles...the lore of The Elder Scrolls is such that there are substantive differences between the races that drive many of the conflicts shown in the games.


Finally, it's a surefire way to bias your poll when you preemptively tell the people who disagree with your counterarguments to "stop talking & be quiet for several days."

Your arguments about lore don’t sway me when the eso combat team gets the lore so wrong.

-Which race is supposed to be tanks? (Hint: Its not nords nor argonians.)

-Which race is supposed to be leather armor berserkers? (Hint: Its not orcs.)

-And which is the stealthiest race? (Hint: Its not kahjiit.) in fact in eso imperials have better stealth passives then Bosmers do.

Justify that in lore, in eso why are imperials better at stealth than Bosmers?

The weird part is the narrative half of the game gets it more or less right. But it’s like the combat team works on a different game with much different lore.

So it’s hard for me to sit here and support traditional hard coded racial traits when zos themselves appears to care so little about the lore behind them. Is getting the lore wrong solely the combat teams purview?
Make the racials more pliable if we are just playing fast and loose with the lore anyway, at least in will possibly break the race meta and make players a bit more happy.

So.... you trust the same team that screwed up racial passives to allow you to pick your own ones to do it in such a way that they won't screw that up as well?

I mean as far as I am concerned racial passives should be trivial things like that all so very useful extra swim speed argonians get. Or that khajiit get extra light attack damage when they don't have a weapon equipped. Something menial.

But if you want to go down the route of picking your own. Fine whatever let zos do it. Then a week after implementation we will all be back here on the forums complaining about how xyz racial passive combo is OP and be listening to criess of doom and nerfdom.

First I would be perfect fine with racial passives being absolutely trivial. In Skyrim, the racial passives over time became trivial to the point that only the races “special ability” meant anything. And even then that was pretty minor thing. A system like that would be fine.

Second, the forums will complain about anything. Literally anything.
“This armor set is too powerful in pvp!”
The obvious reply from me would be, “Then maybe you should start wearing it.”

But those people have the right to complain, because they feel what is happening is not fun.

Third, I don’t really want to pick my own racial passives, but I would like them to be done right. That means they should be balanced, pliable, and lore friendly. But zos seem intractable in that reguard. They have picked narrow focused roles for all the races then walked away because that is just an easy thing to do design wise.

Yes you CAN have a bosmer healer, but really it’s a PvP stamina race. That is what it is designed for.

Yes you CAN have an argonian dps, but really it’s a healer/tank race. That is what it is designed for.

I want to make an altmer assassin and I want the passives to be pliable enough that they don’t always feel second rate.

I want a new player to pick any race for any role and somehow not have “failed” at endgame before they left the character creation screen.

Right now we don’t have that, and I am just exasperated enough to go along with any suggestion to change what we have now.

Fourth, I have my own ideas about how the racials should be done that are different than anything so far suggested. And would absolutely 100 percent fit with how it’s done in the ES franchise. But I really doubt anyone would like it.

Adremal

No. I like Altmer sorcerers seeing my scaly tail and my higher DPS in spite of them having BiS passives for magicka DPS.

BXR_Lonestar

Eshkerigal wrote: »

Or at least, give us few more race changes for almost useless races as Nord.

Altmer is better choice for tank than nord for mag dd.
Breton is better choice for tank than nord for mag dd
Everything is better choice for tank than nord for mag dd.

Give nords some love. Give them passive magicka (with stamina) or change ult passive to gain ultimate when player hit enemy, and not when player get damage. It should help a bit...

Also. Bretons.
They have many knights. Yes, those guys with swords and/or shields. Giving breton bonus for stam dps would not be "lore breaking".

Variety is good but races other than khajits and dunmers should have small reworks to make them viable for any role too.

My healer is a nord main and I love him, I'm just saying. Also, many in PVP consider nord bis for some classes due to ultimate regen and extra defense (those happen to be the reasons why I like my nord as a healer too). I preferred it better when Nord's had an innate 6% extra damage reduction rather than an extra resistances, but still pretty good IMO.

Eshkerigal

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Eshkerigal wrote: »

Or at least, give us few more race changes for almost useless races as Nord.

Altmer is better choice for tank than nord for mag dd.
Breton is better choice for tank than nord for mag dd
Everything is better choice for tank than nord for mag dd.

Give nords some love. Give them passive magicka (with stamina) or change ult passive to gain ultimate when player hit enemy, and not when player get damage. It should help a bit...

Also. Bretons.
They have many knights. Yes, those guys with swords and/or shields. Giving breton bonus for stam dps would not be "lore breaking".

Variety is good but races other than khajits and dunmers should have small reworks to make them viable for any role too.

My healer is a nord main and I love him, I'm just saying. Also, many in PVP consider nord bis for some classes due to ultimate regen and extra defense (those happen to be the reasons why I like my nord as a healer too). I preferred it better when Nord's had an innate 6% extra damage reduction rather than an extra resistances, but still pretty good IMO.

I change my main's spec regullary, between healer and mag dps. I am not great dps at all - 70k on trial dummy is my best dps I can do. (I lost about one minute in any fight because I have high latency, and epilepsy animation doesn't work with unstable connection). On nord I would do less than 60k because nords have no bonus regen, no bonus dmg, no skill cost reduction and dummy won't even hit you so they don't get bonus from their ult regen.

Mundus and stats and tons of item sets won't reduce differences between altmer and nord even for a bit, because if I take bis sets and stats and mundus for my nord, I will take them for my altmer too and make my dps even higher.

As I said, argument about "lore friendly" is invalid. Why? Imperials have many great mages, necromancers and battlemages in their army. Yet they are not good choice for mag class in ESO. There are breton knights (who use stamina weapons), there were "clever man" among nords. There are spinners, and tree-menders. I see no example in lore for argonians to have "bonuses from drinking potions". Any race can use any weapon but they have racials that increase exp with them. If we want "lore friendly" game, we need spellcraft, and casting spells with our hands, not magick staves...

This is why I'd like to see more "multitasking" races as dunmers and khajits or even altmers. It would be awesome to do few changes to existing racials to make them all viable choices as mag and stam dd.

merpins

Just make customizable racial skins available in the cash shop. Like, you can buy a race skin, and customize it however you want to look however you want, and can toggle it on and off. While it's on, you look like that race, as do armor pieces and everything else. Purely cosmetic.
They add your racial skins you bought to a side bar on the character select screen, and you select them to customize them. You'd need to buy each race individually of course which kinda sucks, and you'd probably only be able to buy them once. It would be in a different menu than skins as well, though they'd function similarly to skins as in you just toggle it on and off, that way you can still wear a skin as well as your racial skin. And of course ZoS will nickel-and-dime us by making us use an appearance change coupon whenever we want to change a skin's appearance. But this solution would do what you want, what I want, and not change gameplay at all.