Vampire 3.0

Captain_OP

Hallo people of Tamriel,
with the ongoing discussions about the state of the Vampires and a lot of free time on my side, i researched the old goals of the Vampire 2.0 and Vampires in Skyrim and Oblivion.

Vampire 2.0
The main goal was to make being a vampire a real choise, because of the passives everybody was a stage 2 vampire to use mistform and get the stamina and magicka regain boni with little cost. The design put the “Blood Magic” theme in the forground to design the new Abilities and put in the Blood Lord aka Blood Scion transformation. The Blood Magic was interpreted with Eviscerate and Blood Frenzy. The draw backs of being a Vampire were Reduction in Health Recovery, Increase in damage from Flame attacks and Increase cost for non-Vampire abilities.
Source: https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/58225

On the plus side we can say it is now a choise. With the increase of cost most player droped Vampire out. The Meta Community seaked for new damage records with Eviscerate and Blood Frenzy. The Blood Magic Fantasy was hitting good, but had to be nerfed. Eviscerate and Blood Frenzy denied healing from other players and the nail in the cofin is the new mistform pve nerf that leaves the Vampire player with drain that isnt populare to use because of its low damage and no escape option. The Blood Scion has a to litttle uptime to compensate the missing heal/mitigation options. On top a lot of player reported that they got kicked as vampire dps players from groups because they can not be healed. Without the healing a healer couldnt applie buffs to a player.
All this changes leads to situtaion were only pvp, player or role or overland questing player choose vampirisim. At this point i am not sure if this was the goal of the Designer, since the design philosophie is play what you want, we can conclude that this isnt anymore the case for Vampire. There are a bunch of other little things players comlained like the passive weopon and spell damage after being stealthed, invisible or in mistform, Eviscarate being a melee ability without stamina morph or scaling and Mesmerize as a hard to hit spell because of calculating issues.

Skyrim and Oblivion
In Skyrim and oblivion wasnt the Blood Magic the main point of being a normal Vampire. Only the Blood Lords could use all those cool spells and had a Special skill tree in the Dawnguard DLC from Skyrim. So i rather focus on the base skills for a vampire line and the Blood Magic on the Ultimate Ability. The main part in both games is that sunlight kills your or your health/stamina/magicka regain. This is quite hard to translate to a mmorpg, because a player couldnt wait until night like in the elder scrolls games. On top you take overall a huge bunch of increased fire damage, but in trade of you get some posion, disease resistance, in skyrim frost and in oblivion physical resistance.
Skills from Oblivion:

• Stage One: Hunter's Sight – Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self. Detect Life 100 ft. for 30 seconds on Self.
• Stage Two: Vampire's Seduction – Charm 50 points for 20 seconds on Touch.
• Stage Three: Reign of Terror – Silence 20ft. for 60 seconds. Demoralize up to level 6 for 60 seconds on touch.
• Stage Four: Embrace of Shadows – Night-Eye for 90 seconds on Self. Invisibility for 180 seconds on Self.

Skills from Skyrim

• Stage One: Vampiric Drain - Drain health, magicka, and stamina from the target.
• Stage One: Vampire's Servant - Reanimate a dead body to fight for you for one minute.
• Stage One: Vampire's Sight - Giving you Night Eye for 60 seconds.
• Stage Two and Three: Vampire's Seduction - A hostile creature or person to stop fighting for 30 seconds
• Stage Four: Embrace of Shadows - Become completely invisible for the duration of the spell and get Night Vision for 180 seconds.

With this we have the two most iconic Vampire abilities Vampire's Seduction and Embrace of Shadows. With Skyrim the Vampire Servant and Vampire Drain was a nice addition.

Vampire 3.0
From the first iteration of the Vampire in eso did the Bat Swarm ultimate become a iconic and loved spell for vampire players. Embrace of Shadows maybe would break game balance if every class could have easy access to invisibility which was a short time on the bat swarm ultimate and got removed. So i would focus on a third iteration on Drain, Servants, Seduction, Mistform and Bat Swarm. The ultimate to embrace the Blood Magic theme from the Skyrim Dawnguard DLC and Greymore should be the Blood Scion with some cool specials. To wrap it up, here is my take:

Actives (every ability is a criminal act):

1. Drain
   Drain steal life as beam(only cast animation no channel, interrupeted on out of range) on medium range from target and scale on highest stat(health, magica, stamina) with increasing heal based on current life of player for a few seconds.
   Morph 1 - Generates ultimate
   Morph 2 - More beams but weaker per beam and beams only work on short range.
   Note - Only one beam per target.
2. Vampire's servant
   Raise a corpse to fight for player and scales on highest offensive stat. Costs little live per second.
   Morph 1 - Stronger rotten Servants with disease aoe and apply minor breach
   Morph 2 - Gargoyle which cast Drain with Morph 2
   Note - Toggle Ability with little not increasing live cost to maintain. Mainly to adaped the Blood Magic Theme and to include the Role Play element not to run with a Zombie in a City.
3. Bat swarm
   As the old Ultimate Bat Swarm, but cost magicka, with aoe magic damage or physical damage around the player depending(3) on highest offensive stat without healing.
   Morph 1 - Increased radius.
   Morph 2 - Swarm is now a placeable ability and applies a little slow.
   Note - I know this is not elderscrolls but this scene was sick Drakula Untold - Bat Smash and maybe this would give a player a little feeling of mighty bats like the old Vampire Ultimate.
4. Mistform
   Disables player to attack or cast abilities. Direct damage is reduced by 75 % and Aoe damage is reduced by 25 %(3). The player lose aggro of enemies. No sprinting while in mistform, but the player get increased movement speed.
   Morph 1 - When player disables mistform the player teleport a short range in view direction.
   Morph 2 - Mist form range gets bigger and enemies inside breath poison.
   Note - Toggle with magicka cost.
5. Vampire's Seduction
   A target in medium range walk into player direction and stops attacking or casting spells (New Status: Charmed).
   Morph 1 - Enemies take increased damage.
   Morph 2 - Short area of effect on all targets, but they get furious after the effect ends(enemies get taunted by the player).
6. Blood Scion - Ultimate
   Player gets empowered to become a Blood Scion with greater stat pools and the ability to find all enemies around the Player. Enter Stage 5.
   Morph 1 - Reactivate to rip out the blood of enemies around the player. Strong aoe burst with heal(Short Cooldown to Reactivate multiple times).
   Morph 2 - Reactivate to summon blood orb that cast drain with Morph 2 on all enemies that enter area of effect(Medium Cooldown to Reactivate two times).
   Note - I dropped the heal for damage, because i think this way the healing is better timed and something cool is happening if the player press r again. The Morphs should perfectly fit the Blood Magic theme to burst out the blood of all enemies.

Passives:

1. Vampire stages
   The Stages are in the range from 1 to 5. Stage 5 can only be reached by the Ultimate Ability. Bloodthirst increase by using Vampire skills, which means Stage goes up(2). The Bloodthirst increase faster if vampire abilities get used in frequently in a short time. Normal playing even with 6 vampire skills using, should increase the stage after ~ 1 hour(4). Feeding decrease Stage.
   Per stage 3% less damage from physical, poison, disease and frost attacks and 3% more damage from fire(3). Decrease healing from non vampire sources (other players and non vampire skills) and a little less more per stage(5). Decrease health Regen per Stage. Stage 5 removes the fire damage debuff and reduces cost of vampire abilities.
   Note - Heals should be reduced like 10 up to 30% (1). At Stage 4 the npcs wont talk with the player, except the player has Vampire's Seduction equipped.
   
2. Dark Stalker
   Adds faster stealth mode and no movement penalty in stealth.
   Note - Like currently on live servers, no reason to change this.
   
3. Supernatural
   Requires stage 2, increase stamina and magica regain for each slotted vampire ability.
   
4. Undead
   Requires stage 3, Adds weapon and magic damage per vampire ability sloted.
   
5. Emrace the Shadows
   Requires stage 4. After 3 seconds sprinting or sneaking get invisible. Reduced sprinting costs.
   
6. Blood Ritual
   Bite a player skill.
   Note - Like current live one.

Conclusion
This is my interpretation of a Vampire in the Elder Scrolls Online. I tried to take everything that the players liked into the Design and still to hold on drawnbacks and commitment to a vampire play style. With the scaling based on the vampire abilities each player can choose how much benefit he wants to get from beeing a vampire and offering abilities that can fit into every role should give the players the play what you want play style. Lore wise it is not a perfect fit, but i focused on icon abilities and what could be fun to play with.

I am a Computer Games Technologies Student and trying to improve my skills to convert Feedback and Ideas into Game Design, so please let me know what you think in the comments.

(1) Edit: Passives -> Vampire Stages - Removed shielding reduction.
(2) Edit: Passives -> Vampire Stages - Bloodthirst increase by using Vampire skills, which means Stage goes up. Feeding decrease Stage.
(3) Edit: Passives -> Vampire Stages - Add values and frost damage reduction.
Bat Swarm -> Changes damage Typ depending on highest offensive stat.
Mist Form -> Untargable gets replaced by direct damage reduction(Not from aoe).
(4) Edit: Passives -> Vampire Stages - Spaming Vampire Abilities let you enter the next Stage faster, while normal playing ~ 1 hour to get to next stage with high use of the skills.
(5) Edit: Passives -> Vampire Stages - Healing penalty is now for all non vampire healing.

Greek_Hellspawn

Imo the only changes vampire needs is to either reduce or completely remove the ability increase penalty, and make drain an actually useful ability, like a dot or a gap closer.

Captain_OP

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

Imo the only changes vampire needs is to either reduce or completely remove the ability increase penalty, and make drain an actually useful ability, like a dot or a gap closer.

Reducing the penalty bring back the state before the rework, were a lot of player were vampires and players complained about that. If the dotDrain is replaced by a dot or a gap closer, then would the core of a vampire skill line be missing. If the dot should work like a Drain, then it would not give enought counter play. At the current version in the live game and in the Drain i introduced you can break the Drain by getting out of range. A gap closer was very often requested, thats why i introduced one in the mistform, which can be used in every build, because it is not on target and can benefit every role. Further more i tried to introduced a version of the mistfrom that can be used in pve and pvp.

Vevvev

I don't like your idea for the stage passives. Disease and poison resistance make sense, but the decreased shielding on top of healing is silly. Sure mitigate the one tool I've used to keep friendly vampires alive in difficult content. That won't backfire at all even with the removal of BfB and Blood Frenzy.... Poor vampire tanks

Captain_OP

Vevvev wrote: »

I don't like your idea for the stage passives. Disease and poison resistance make sense, but the decreased shielding on top of healing is silly. Sure mitigate the one tool I've used to keep friendly vampires alive in difficult content. That won't backfire at all even with the removal of BfB and Blood Frenzy.... Poor vampire tanks

I think you are right and it could be too hard to reduce shielding aswell. Shields gives the vampire player the time to get themself healed up. I'll note that as change.

Ryuvain

I really like your servant ideas. Vampire was supposed to be able to turn npcs into thralls at some point but it was dropped. Also like the passive scaling with how many vampire abilities you have. Blood scion changes are great too.

WraithShadow13

I've been absolutely hating the reVamp, as i call it. It just doesn't make sense, even from a lore standpoint.


Why does the vampire have ZERO health regen? In what world does that make sense? Wouldn't it make more sense if vampires had a mechanic more in line with the ring of the pale order? You get insane healing but you're dead, so others can't heal you, just the blood.


WHY would being a vampire make all my non-vamp abilities cost more? I'm a vampire, with the speed and strength there of. Wouldn't using blades and weapons be considerably easier and faster? I miss my bat swarm ultimate but hate the scion transformation too much to use it. i don't want to be a giant naked monster, so why was that a default thing and not a morph? Why does feeding NOT feed us? Shouldn't it count as a meal? shouldn't it heal us when we do it? It literally does nothing but push for vamp level one over, which again, makes no sense lore wise or gameplay wise. Why did they make Bloodmist, which was one of the only powers i liked and used, ONLY mitigate PvP damage? That makes no sense, either. It was a great "oh, [snip]" button, so it seems weird to make the defense only work with other players. Also, not an issue but a personal gripe, i'm not a fan of the ranged feeding. This isn't legacy of kain, here. I get it, especially with magicka users but when it's the only feeding animation i get 96% of the time, it just makes me hate it more, but that one is just a personal dislike.


I get that the guy who made the decision wanted people to consider Vampirism as a gameplay mechanic but with the way it's setup, it just seems like Zos now hates Vampires and is punishing us for it.



I am all for revamping the vamp reVAmp but i really don't know what they could do that would work for all the community.



But yeah, i just really think they missed a golden opportunity.




On the positive note, i DO love that feeding is a thing, but i would love more animations and benefits for it. I also like that people see what you are and hate you for it, but it can get annoying at times. Stealth bonuses are nice, as is the Sprint feature.


I just think that it could use another good redo, and hopefully one that makes more sense lore wise and from a player standpoint.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

Stx

Whenever you read the feedback players give on the vamp tree, you really start to understand why no matter what they do, lots of poeple will be unhappy. Everyone has their own perspective on what vamp should be.

Vevvev

Stx wrote: »

Whenever you read the feedback players give on the vamp tree, you really start to understand why no matter what they do, lots of poeple will be unhappy. Everyone has their own perspective on what vamp should be.

Indeed, which is probably one of the reasons why none of the feedback made it past the cutting room floor. Considered? Possibly, but actually brought into the game? Not really.... I think the only piece of feedback that actually was implemented was the change to Vampiric Drain to make it a better utility ability by buffing the ultimate, healing, and stamina restoration parts of it.

Captain_OP

Stx wrote: »

Whenever you read the feedback players give on the vamp tree, you really start to understand why no matter what they do, lots of poeple will be unhappy. Everyone has their own perspective on what vamp should be.

That's the worst part at every Vampire revamp, its so hard to please everyone. I gathered resources and tried to make my Vampire 3.0 idea as close as possible to expectations from the other Elder Scrolls games, but i already can tell there will be people who like the vampire in its state now and will be unhappy with changes. I can only hope that the majority would like another new interpretation of vampires in tamriel.

Captain_OP

Vevvev wrote: »

Indeed, which is probably one of the reasons why none of the feedback made it past the cutting room floor. Considered? Possibly, but actually brought into the game? Not really.... I think the only piece of feedback that actually was implemented was the change to Vampiric Drain to make it a better utility ability by buffing the ultimate, healing, and stamina restoration parts of it.

I dont think so. As a developer team you make a roadmap for a year full of releases and when you bring out a feature you already have to work on the next. With the release of the new Vampire Skill the only feedback that was used is about the useage of the abilities, balancing and bugs. Gathering all the feedback and updating continuesly the skill line would cost very much resources that you need at the next release of a new feature. Even with a miserable release they have to go with what was released. Only to game breaking stuff, balancing and quality of life changes you can commit developers from a new feature.

Nova_J

Stx wrote: »

Whenever you read the feedback players give on the vamp tree, you really start to understand why no matter what they do, lots of poeple will be unhappy. Everyone has their own perspective on what vamp should be.

Tbh there was actually a good consensus on what everyone wanted. Yea we had ALOT of ideas, but everyone just vamps to be viable and fun. Unfortunately that's not what happened because ZOS ignored dang near 100% of the feedback and suggestions we made.

Stx

Nova_J wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Whenever you read the feedback players give on the vamp tree, you really start to understand why no matter what they do, lots of poeple will be unhappy. Everyone has their own perspective on what vamp should be.

Tbh there was actually a good consensus on what everyone wanted. Yea we had ALOT of ideas, but everyone just vamps to be viable and fun. Unfortunately that's not what happened because ZOS ignored dang near 100% of the feedback and suggestions we made.

But just saying 'viable and fun' doesn't mean anything. Everyone has their own definition of fun.

All I know for sure is lots of players hated the old vamp and lots of players hate the new vamp.

Vevvev

Stx wrote: »

Nova_J wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Whenever you read the feedback players give on the vamp tree, you really start to understand why no matter what they do, lots of poeple will be unhappy. Everyone has their own perspective on what vamp should be.

Tbh there was actually a good consensus on what everyone wanted. Yea we had ALOT of ideas, but everyone just vamps to be viable and fun. Unfortunately that's not what happened because ZOS ignored dang near 100% of the feedback and suggestions we made.

But just saying 'viable and fun' doesn't mean anything. Everyone has their own definition of fun.

All I know for sure is lots of players hated the old vamp and lots of players hate the new vamp.

Old vamp was hated for it's passiveness and lack of "true power" however in its own right it was pretty solid in what it did. It ticked enough boxes that when you played it you felt like a vampire.

Feeding on players? Check
Useful life drain attack? Check
Usable defensive ability? Check
Ultimate that made you feel awesome? Check

New vampire got rid of feeding on players, made Drain mediocre, has now killed the iconic defensive ability, and the ultimate might feel awesome in it's raw power but looks like a rubber clown suit that looks nothing like what players were expecting.

DrSlaughtr

It's hard to compare Skyrim and oblivion vamps to this because they are single player RPGs. You don't have to balance them against other players and the effects can just be RP based without necessarily being useful in combat.

The only changes I would make to vampire is Vamp 3 mitigation. It's just too much, and I say this as someone who stays stage 3. 30% is very high.

Vevvev

The buff to stage 3 was needed with the design ZOS went for with it. Old Undeath was at 33% and started scaling when you fell below 50% health so at 25% health is was a little over 15% damage mitigation. It didn't help you very well unless you could actually survive getting hit with an execute ability at that range.

DrSlaughtr

Maybe, but 30% in the last few patches is too much with no drawback. The ability cost isn't an issue for anyone.

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Maybe, but 30% in the last few patches is too much with no drawback. The ability cost isn't an issue for anyone.

No Drawback? So the 8-12% increased non-vampire ability costs, 60-100% health regeneration decrease on top of Battle Spirit, 10% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage taken, 13-20% increased flame damage taken, and revealed through walls to anyone with Skilled Tracker equipped isn't enough for you?

Captain_OP

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's hard to compare Skyrim and oblivion vamps to this because they are single player RPGs. You don't have to balance them against other players and the effects can just be RP based without necessarily being useful in combat.

The only changes I would make to vampire is Vamp 3 mitigation. It's just too much, and I say this as someone who stays stage 3. 30% is very high.

That's right, abilities that are RP only like Vampire Seduce were you get someone to fight for you isnt translateable into the online game. But they can be reinterpretated for a online game, which is my approach.

I really dislike the current undeath passiv, because it is only good if you have enought health to not be one-shoted.That is why i based the damage resistance in the stage system like in skyrim and oblivion. This way you get the vampiric feeling without the need of a specific stage and on top you only get resistance to melee damage types. Which lead to a very easy counter play with magic damage and especilly with fire damage.

DrSlaughtr

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Maybe, but 30% in the last few patches is too much with no drawback. The ability cost isn't an issue for anyone.

No Drawback? So the 8-12% increased non-vampire ability costs, 60-100% health regeneration decrease on top of Battle Spirit, 10% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage taken, 13-20% increased flame damage taken, and revealed through walls to anyone with Skilled Tracker equipped isn't enough for you?

Nope. None of that hurts the people who run state 3 on immortal tank DD builds that never run out of resources or succumb to fire. Maybe if the cost also applied to block. I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Even if it does, it clearly has no effect.

I never run out of resources due to stage 3.

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Maybe, but 30% in the last few patches is too much with no drawback. The ability cost isn't an issue for anyone.

No Drawback? So the 8-12% increased non-vampire ability costs, 60-100% health regeneration decrease on top of Battle Spirit, 10% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage taken, 13-20% increased flame damage taken, and revealed through walls to anyone with Skilled Tracker equipped isn't enough for you?

Nope. None of that hurts the people who run state 3 on immortal tank DD builds that never run out of resources or succumb to fire. Maybe if the cost also applied to block. I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Even if it does, it clearly has no effect.

I never run out of resources due to stage 3.

It's more than just the resources because if you actually ran a vampire build it's actually better sustain. The penalty is to push you into using the vampire powers so the actual debuffs to look for are the HP Regen, flame, and Fighter's Guild penalties. Against a dedicated vampire hunter build (any stamina build using Dawnbreaker and every single magDK) you'll be taking a ton of damage dude. Undeath is there so you can use Blood Frenzy and Eviscerate without getting killed instantly, and it's one of the last thematic things vampire has left. What's your proposal then should you take it away?

DrSlaughtr

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Maybe, but 30% in the last few patches is too much with no drawback. The ability cost isn't an issue for anyone.

No Drawback? So the 8-12% increased non-vampire ability costs, 60-100% health regeneration decrease on top of Battle Spirit, 10% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage taken, 13-20% increased flame damage taken, and revealed through walls to anyone with Skilled Tracker equipped isn't enough for you?

Nope. None of that hurts the people who run state 3 on immortal tank DD builds that never run out of resources or succumb to fire. Maybe if the cost also applied to block. I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Even if it does, it clearly has no effect.

I never run out of resources due to stage 3.

It's more than just the resources because if you actually ran a vampire build it's actually better sustain. The penalty is to push you into using the vampire powers so the actual debuffs to look for are the HP Regen, flame, and Fighter's Guild penalties. Against a dedicated vampire hunter build (any stamina build using Dawnbreaker and every single magDK) you'll be taking a ton of damage dude. Undeath is there so you can use Blood Frenzy and Eviscerate without getting killed instantly, and it's one of the last thematic things vampire has left. What's your proposal then should you take it away?

I use zero vampire abilities. I never run out of resources. Fire damage is not a deterrent because of the mitigation + overtuned heals.

Dawnies rarely do enough damage to stop me.

Like I said, I run stage 3 all the time. I'm well aware of how it works and I assure you the penalties makes zero difference for players who know how to manage their resources.

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Maybe, but 30% in the last few patches is too much with no drawback. The ability cost isn't an issue for anyone.

No Drawback? So the 8-12% increased non-vampire ability costs, 60-100% health regeneration decrease on top of Battle Spirit, 10% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage taken, 13-20% increased flame damage taken, and revealed through walls to anyone with Skilled Tracker equipped isn't enough for you?

Nope. None of that hurts the people who run state 3 on immortal tank DD builds that never run out of resources or succumb to fire. Maybe if the cost also applied to block. I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Even if it does, it clearly has no effect.

I never run out of resources due to stage 3.

It's more than just the resources because if you actually ran a vampire build it's actually better sustain. The penalty is to push you into using the vampire powers so the actual debuffs to look for are the HP Regen, flame, and Fighter's Guild penalties. Against a dedicated vampire hunter build (any stamina build using Dawnbreaker and every single magDK) you'll be taking a ton of damage dude. Undeath is there so you can use Blood Frenzy and Eviscerate without getting killed instantly, and it's one of the last thematic things vampire has left. What's your proposal then should you take it away?

I use zero vampire abilities. I never run out of resources. Fire damage is not a deterrent because of the mitigation + overtuned heals.

Dawnies rarely do enough damage to stop me.

Like I said, I run stage 3 all the time. I'm well aware of how it works and I assure you the penalties makes zero difference for players who know how to manage their resources.

You do understand it suffers from deminishing returns, right?

Player mitigation from Battle Spirit + CP 2.0 rework is 10% + 55% which comes out to 59.5% effective mitigation. Then you calculate in a target's resistances which can scale up to 50% for up to 79.75% damage mitigation. In one of the most extreme circumstances Undeath is only giving around 6% damage mitigation at max not counting anything else. Of course reduce armor and the value goes up a bit, but the passive isn't as OP as you're making it out to be. And that 6% is when you're dead...

DrSlaughtr

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Maybe, but 30% in the last few patches is too much with no drawback. The ability cost isn't an issue for anyone.

No Drawback? So the 8-12% increased non-vampire ability costs, 60-100% health regeneration decrease on top of Battle Spirit, 10% extra Fighter's Guild ability damage taken, 13-20% increased flame damage taken, and revealed through walls to anyone with Skilled Tracker equipped isn't enough for you?

Nope. None of that hurts the people who run state 3 on immortal tank DD builds that never run out of resources or succumb to fire. Maybe if the cost also applied to block. I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Even if it does, it clearly has no effect.

I never run out of resources due to stage 3.

It's more than just the resources because if you actually ran a vampire build it's actually better sustain. The penalty is to push you into using the vampire powers so the actual debuffs to look for are the HP Regen, flame, and Fighter's Guild penalties. Against a dedicated vampire hunter build (any stamina build using Dawnbreaker and every single magDK) you'll be taking a ton of damage dude. Undeath is there so you can use Blood Frenzy and Eviscerate without getting killed instantly, and it's one of the last thematic things vampire has left. What's your proposal then should you take it away?

I use zero vampire abilities. I never run out of resources. Fire damage is not a deterrent because of the mitigation + overtuned heals.

Dawnies rarely do enough damage to stop me.

Like I said, I run stage 3 all the time. I'm well aware of how it works and I assure you the penalties makes zero difference for players who know how to manage their resources.

You do understand it suffers from deminishing returns, right?

Player mitigation from Battle Spirit + CP 2.0 rework is 10% + 55% which comes out to 59.5% effective mitigation. Then you calculate in a target's resistances which can scale up to 50% for up to 79.75% damage mitigation. In one of the most extreme circumstances Undeath is only giving around 6% damage mitigation at max not counting anything else. Of course reduce armor and the value goes up a bit, but the passive isn't as OP as you're making it out to be. And that 6% is when you're dead...

This is the running line from people who don't want mitigation touched.

You see the effects when you are attacking a player, get them down to 25%, and the damage just stops. I've been on both sides of this. I have 4 stage 3 characters and damage applied to them hits a brick wall when vamp 3 kicks in. I don't even have to block. Just heal then after they blow their load, kill them easy.

If we go by your math, then dropping it down to 15% would make little difference, so let's do that. 😊

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is the running line from people who don't want mitigation touched.

You see the effects when you are attacking a player, get them down to 25%, and the damage just stops. I've been on both sides of this. I have 4 stage 3 characters and damage applied to them hits a brick wall when vamp 3 kicks in. I don't even have to block. Just heal then after they blow their load, kill them easy.

If we go by your math, then dropping it down to 15% would make little difference, so let's do that. 😊

Then they should also renerf the Psijic Order passive that was changed from major protection to a unique 30% because it was found to be way too low and close to worthless.

And then make the stage 4 health recovery debuff -90% instead of -100%.

But I personally want to go in the opposite direction. Make the vampire cost increase and cost decrease values back to how they were during the first couple of weeks on the PTS. Up to 20% increase non-vampire costs and 40% decreased vampire costs.

Daemonai

I love my vampire, but I actually built my vampire specifically to use the vampire skill line. The only changes I want are cosmetic. I want the wings back on Scion form and for the visual telegraph of Eviscerate to be larger.

Like others have said, no matter what you do to Vampires someone is going to be upset. Trying to chase the perfect iteration of a Vampire is only going to lead to disappointment. At the very least vampire is now a complete subclass, whereas in the past it was just a stat stick.

IMO, Vampire is best left alone.

Captain_OP

Daemonai wrote: »

I love my vampire, but I actually built my vampire specifically to use the vampire skill line. The only changes I want are cosmetic. I want the wings back on Scion form and for the visual telegraph of Eviscerate to be larger.

Like others have said, no matter what you do to Vampires someone is going to be upset. Trying to chase the perfect iteration of a Vampire is only going to lead to disappointment. At the very least vampire is now a complete subclass, whereas in the past it was just a stat stick.

IMO, Vampire is best left alone.

Which content do you play?

I am asking because some say that vampires are only used in pvp or overland questing and roleplaying.

Vevvev

Captain_OP wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

I love my vampire, but I actually built my vampire specifically to use the vampire skill line. The only changes I want are cosmetic. I want the wings back on Scion form and for the visual telegraph of Eviscerate to be larger.

Like others have said, no matter what you do to Vampires someone is going to be upset. Trying to chase the perfect iteration of a Vampire is only going to lead to disappointment. At the very least vampire is now a complete subclass, whereas in the past it was just a stat stick.

IMO, Vampire is best left alone.

Which content do you play?

I am asking because some say that vampires are only used in pvp or overland questing and roleplaying.

To be fair in all honesty.... Ring of the Pale Order turns vampire into the ultimate solo killing machine. Where vampire actually truly struggles is in group play where the outside healing cut outs end up being lethal to the playstyle. This was made even more true by ZOS's nerfing of the Pale Order Ring by reducing it's effectiveness based on # of people grouped with you. Before that nerf you saw vampires in high performance end game level trials taking full advantage of the Simmering Frenzy + Blood for Blood combo allowing them to pull insane amounts of DPS and sustain rather well.

I take my pure vampire build into vVH, vMA, and PvP all the time, but where I have to start cutting corners is when I start grouping up with others. Mistform nerf killed the option on my tank, Vampiric Drain is..... too situational to be reliable and takes an ability slot, and as a healer while I do use Blood for Blood on the damage bar I don't have the bar space for any other vampire ability. DPSing... yeah I just forget about it completely and stay stage 1 so nobody can point a finger at me and say I'm a problem.

And by pure I mean the playstyle that "ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire." I don't use Mesmerize in PvE outside Harrowstorms, and Drain slows the whole battle down.

Captain_OP

Vevvev wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

I love my vampire, but I actually built my vampire specifically to use the vampire skill line. The only changes I want are cosmetic. I want the wings back on Scion form and for the visual telegraph of Eviscerate to be larger.

Like others have said, no matter what you do to Vampires someone is going to be upset. Trying to chase the perfect iteration of a Vampire is only going to lead to disappointment. At the very least vampire is now a complete subclass, whereas in the past it was just a stat stick.

IMO, Vampire is best left alone.

Which content do you play?

I am asking because some say that vampires are only used in pvp or overland questing and roleplaying.

To be fair in all honesty.... Ring of the Pale Order turns vampire into the ultimate solo killing machine. Where vampire actually truly struggles is in group play where the outside healing cut outs end up being lethal to the playstyle. This was made even more true by ZOS's nerfing of the Pale Order Ring by reducing it's effectiveness based on # of people grouped with you. Before that nerf you saw vampires in high performance end game level trials taking full advantage of the Simmering Frenzy + Blood for Blood combo allowing them to pull insane amounts of DPS and sustain rather well.

I take my pure vampire build into vVH, vMA, and PvP all the time, but where I have to start cutting corners is when I start grouping up with others. Mistform nerf killed the option on my tank, Vampiric Drain is..... too situational to be reliable and takes an ability slot, and as a healer while I do use Blood for Blood on the damage bar I don't have the bar space for any other vampire ability. DPSing... yeah I just forget about it completely and stay stage 1 so nobody can point a finger at me and say I'm a problem.

Those days were wield with vampires and highest dps, but everyone knew that it will end.

The mistform nerf was the nail in the coffin for vampire pve group play.

In this case the new Armory feature is the saviour, because you can swap from solo to group build. It is interessting to know in which content vampires are used. Maybe with the new armory system the state of vampire is fine and can be pushed to be more power full in solo play, because you can ignore all group content. This way the vampire would be the opposite playstyle of a werewolf. Vampire full solo and werewolf hunts in a pack.

With all of this i expect the developers to go further with the path they choose and that could be fine.

Rav3nb0rn

I'd very much like to allow us in the future to be pure blooded Vampire Lords - Skyrim wise with some necessary tweaks and side with Molag Bal since he implies something by the end of the main quest to Meridia , about all this main quest stuff working to his favour . And of course we have to be his proven followers like Harkon to get this gift .
The current state of Vampirism is lacking to say the least that's probably why you suggest in the initial post some changes . I for one cannot use it in group PvE and i don't do PvP . I don't want to have a useless skill line on my skill book neither to be cured so I'm left with the vampire cosmetics only ( and Blood Ritual ) .
Primary goal should be to be a choice let's not forget that - more of a curse lorewise and a gift at the same time for those that want to be Vampires . If another update on Vampirism ever came out , instead of be the current meta it should be supportive to every aspect of gameplay . Not get nerfed to the ground and end up like this .

magnus01

I will get hated on for saying this but it needs a total rework to be more inline with werewolf the feeding mech needs to be reversed because facepalm.
the skills need a total rework because now vamps are for roleplay .
and the beast form needs a blood mech like the feeding for the werewolf does.

same for the bone goliath not the skill set mind you but the feeding mech ,dead bodies should be able to fuel the form.

vamps should buff magic like werewolf buffs stam

then it would truly be a choice over vamps sucks ass and makes life harder, wolf makes life easy for stam builds can tank like a boss and can stay in form for ages provided there is stuff to kill.

its what should have been done in the first place but they just take a nuke to vamp every time they touch it and it just made me so sad.