crit builds in pvp

Jman100582

I know it's late in the pts, but this is still something i feel needs to be addressed. crit for a majority of classes, is a completely useless stat in pvp. It takes so much effort to hit above 35% crit chance, which isn't even optimal for a proper "crit build" imo, which would have at least 45-50% crit chance. The problem with this, is that you have to run 1 or maybe 2 crit chance sets with the thief mundus to hit this for pvp as you can't run full divines like in pve and daggers aren't very good for pvp. Maces are better in almost all cases. When you run sets that boost your crit chance, you run into a problem: there's nothing for your crit chance to scale with. Besides maybe vate 2h and a monster set. Which isn't enough.

Compare this to the easy malacath builds. Completely ditch crit, and it's way easier to increase your weapon/spell dmg as well as pen in pvp. And you end up with more dmg, despite having to invest less. It's unbalanced, p2w, and unfair. There's so much you could do, whether it's make sets specifically that only work against players, like set that gives an additional crit chance against players and player-summoned pets. Or buff precise, or buff axes. Or make sets that let you penetrate critical resistance. Things that are ONLY worthwhile and ONLY work in pvp. I get that in pve cirit is op, but that shouldn't be a reason to completely gut crit for pvp

N3CR01

I was under the impression (could be wrong as I only dabble in pvp) that since everyone runs high crit resist, building for crit was pointless.

Jman100582

N3CR01 wrote: »

I was under the impression (could be wrong as I only dabble in pvp) that since everyone runs high crit resist, building for crit was pointless.

thats true, but that doesn't mean that crit shouldn't be balanced out to be as good as non-crit. Again, something like crit resist pen would be awesome

divnyi

I am running Perfect Sul-Xan's daggers + Twice-Born Star (thief, shadow) + Gaze of Sithis & Stinging Slashes backbar (because it crits, will swap for other proc dmg in next patch where all procs would crit). Khajit.

This is PvE dps char (until this patch will hit), if I switch gaze for kilt, I push for 72k and that's without Sul-Xan's (it gives approx +11% damage). Will be destroyed with U32 for endgame trials.

I hit exactly 125% cap next patch in noCP. I decided to swap several weapon damage enchants to stam sustain and keep this as BGs / solo arena char (it clears vet vate ez).

Will do vid about him on my channel, he is next in the queue. DPS I push really hurts, it hits like a burst, except it's not burst.

N3CR01 wrote: »

I was under the impression (could be wrong as I only dabble in pvp) that since everyone runs high crit resist, building for crit was pointless.

It isn't correct. Base crit resist is 20% for everyone, impen can add something something +13%. It is no longer BiS, well-fitted and sturdy are more useful. Invigorating can be used to push additional sustain too where it matters.

Jman100582 wrote: »

Completely ditch crit, and it's way easier to increase your weapon/spell dmg as well as pen in pvp. And you end up with more dmg, despite having to invest less.

Invest less yes, more damage no. But to be fair, I can push similar numbers with Blood for Blood at low HP in mala setup.

Less investment is exactly why crit isn't run in PvP. You can't go full glass-cannon, and if you do, you want burst - and crit doesn't give burst, it's DPS.

There is only one thing they can do to make low crit rate percentages be useful in PvP. But it will never happen, because it is unpopular.

Ditch 20% crit resist from players. Remove guaranteed crit from cloak.
Acuity was a problem in the past - it was used by gankers. Well, not anymore.

LittlePinkDot

Why does it have to be a designated crit build. Why not a balanced build, just a bit of crit so you have space for other stats.

divnyi

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why does it have to be a designated crit build. Why not a balanced build, just a bit of crit so you have space for other stats.

Because that's not how crit works. You need both crit chance and crit damage high to get good average modifier.

Because adding a bit of crit chance when crit resist is 20% (so 1.3x multiplier at best) doesn't mean much.

LittlePinkDot

divnyi wrote: »

I am running Perfect Sul-Xan's daggers + Twice-Born Star (thief, shadow) + Gaze of Sithis & Stinging Slashes backbar (because it crits, will swap for other proc dmg in next patch where all procs would crit). Khajit.

This is PvE dps char (until this patch will hit), if I switch gaze for kilt, I push for 72k and that's without Sul-Xan's (it gives approx +11% damage). Will be destroyed with U32 for endgame trials.

I hit exactly 125% cap next patch in noCP. I decided to swap several weapon damage enchants to stam sustain and keep this as BGs / solo arena char (it clears vet vate ez).

Will do vid about him on my channel, he is next in the queue. DPS I push really hurts, it hits like a burst, except it's not burst.

N3CR01 wrote: »

I was under the impression (could be wrong as I only dabble in pvp) that since everyone runs high crit resist, building for crit was pointless.

It isn't correct. Base crit resist is 20% for everyone, impen can add something something +13%. It is no longer BiS, well-fitted and sturdy are more useful. Invigorating can be used to push additional sustain too where it matters.

Jman100582 wrote: »

Completely ditch crit, and it's way easier to increase your weapon/spell dmg as well as pen in pvp. And you end up with more dmg, despite having to invest less.

Invest less yes, more damage no. But to be fair, I can push similar numbers with Blood for Blood at low HP in mala setup.

Less investment is exactly why crit isn't run in PvP. You can't go full glass-cannon, and if you do, you want burst - and crit doesn't give burst, it's DPS.

There is only one thing they can do to make low crit rate percentages be useful in PvP. But it will never happen, because it is unpopular.

Ditch 20% crit resist from players. Remove guaranteed crit from cloak.
Acuity was a problem in the past - it was used by gankers. Well, not anymore.

How much weapon damage do you have unbuffed?
I'm using a stam necro bow build for PvP and she's kahjit with warrior mundus.
Is it even worth it to slot channeled acceleration? I'm wearing briarheart so I need to crit to trigger the sets proc. And I always at least start my attack from sneak with snipe, so that should be a guaranteed crit.

But on console I don't know how to see what my total crit damage % is. I don't think the advanced character stats page shows everything that affects crit damage, so I don't even know if I'm at cap.

divnyi

@LittlePinkDot Not much. But I have x1.9 crit multiplier: what you see at screenshot +6% minor force (hemmorhage) +10% sul-xan's = 72% * 225% = 190%.

Now look, I have 29000 stam and 4352 WD buffed.
29000/10.5+4352 = 7113 total WD.

So to have the same amount of skill damage as I have, you need to have 7114*0.9=6402 WD more than me. That goes well above 10k. That's nearly impossible number, even for Simmering Frenzy and Balorgh.

Now if we add malacath to formula: 190%/116% = 163%, to have same damage you need 7114*0.63 = 4481 more WD.
4352+4481 = 8833WD. That's possible number, but only for burst. I have that consistently without burst, with Sul-Xan's proc that is generally easy to obtain for 30s.

Also if anyone buffs me for Weapon Damage, it all multiplies.
Duo with a healer that runs SPC:

LittlePinkDot

divnyi wrote: »

@LittlePinkDot Not much. But I have x1.9 crit multiplier: what you see at screenshot +6% minor force (hemmorhage) +10% sul-xan's = 72% * 225% = 190%.

Now look, I have 29000 stam and 4352 WD buffed.
29000/10.5+4352 = 7113 total WD.

So to have the same amount of skill damage as I have, you need to have 7114*0.9=6402 WD more than me. That goes well above 10k. That's nearly impossible number, even for Simmering Frenzy and Balorgh.

Now if we add malacath to formula: 190%/116% = 163%, to have same damage you need 7114*0.63 = 4481 more WD.
4352+4481 = 8833WD. That's possible number, but only for burst. I have that consistently without burst, with Sul-Xan's proc that is generally easy to obtain for 30s.

Also if anyone buffs me for Weapon Damage, it all multiplies.
Duo with a healer that runs SPC:

See on that screen shot where it says you have 38% crit? The new cap is 125%? So why doesn't it show that? Mine is at 32% now that I slotted camouflaged hunter... But it still only says 32% how do I know if I've hit the cap if it doesn't show it?

And is there anything that Increases damage that doesn't show up on the stats screen that I should also be aware of?
My unbuffed weapon dmg is 4159ish around there.
I'm trying to make this stam necro a ganker in CP cyrodil.

divnyi

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@LittlePinkDot Not much. But I have x1.9 crit multiplier: what you see at screenshot +6% minor force (hemmorhage) +10% sul-xan's = 72% * 225% = 190%.

Now look, I have 29000 stam and 4352 WD buffed.
29000/10.5+4352 = 7113 total WD.

So to have the same amount of skill damage as I have, you need to have 7114*0.9=6402 WD more than me. That goes well above 10k. That's nearly impossible number, even for Simmering Frenzy and Balorgh.

Now if we add malacath to formula: 190%/116% = 163%, to have same damage you need 7114*0.63 = 4481 more WD.
4352+4481 = 8833WD. That's possible number, but only for burst. I have that consistently without burst, with Sul-Xan's proc that is generally easy to obtain for 30s.

Also if anyone buffs me for Weapon Damage, it all multiplies.
Duo with a healer that runs SPC:

See on that screen shot where it says you have 38% crit? The new cap is 125%? So why doesn't it show that? Mine is at 32% now that I slotted camouflaged hunter... But it still only says 32% how do I know if I've hit the cap if it doesn't show it?

And is there anything that Increases damage that doesn't show up on the stats screen that I should also be aware of?
My unbuffed weapon dmg is 4159ish around there.
I'm trying to make this stam necro a ganker in CP cyrodil.

Honestly I don't look at "advanced stats" tab, it shows wrong numbers and doesn't show useful stuff so it's largerly irrelevant to me since I know the mechs.

You are looking at spell crit, not stam crit.

Camo hunter doesn't give crit damage, it gives crit chance. Crit chance is capped at 90%. That's a long ride.

Crit damage.. easier to calc it yourself.

For me it's:
150% base
+10% NB passive
+10% Minor Force
+14% Medium armor
+12% Khajit
+17% Shadow (all divines)
+12% Sul-Xan's
= 225%

Also I've heard from other player that crit res applies before cap, so technically you can add 20% on top before you actually hit the cap.

LittlePinkDot

divnyi wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@LittlePinkDot Not much. But I have x1.9 crit multiplier: what you see at screenshot +6% minor force (hemmorhage) +10% sul-xan's = 72% * 225% = 190%.

Now look, I have 29000 stam and 4352 WD buffed.
29000/10.5+4352 = 7113 total WD.

So to have the same amount of skill damage as I have, you need to have 7114*0.9=6402 WD more than me. That goes well above 10k. That's nearly impossible number, even for Simmering Frenzy and Balorgh.

Now if we add malacath to formula: 190%/116% = 163%, to have same damage you need 7114*0.63 = 4481 more WD.
4352+4481 = 8833WD. That's possible number, but only for burst. I have that consistently without burst, with Sul-Xan's proc that is generally easy to obtain for 30s.

Also if anyone buffs me for Weapon Damage, it all multiplies.
Duo with a healer that runs SPC:

See on that screen shot where it says you have 38% crit? The new cap is 125%? So why doesn't it show that? Mine is at 32% now that I slotted camouflaged hunter... But it still only says 32% how do I know if I've hit the cap if it doesn't show it?

And is there anything that Increases damage that doesn't show up on the stats screen that I should also be aware of?
My unbuffed weapon dmg is 4159ish around there.
I'm trying to make this stam necro a ganker in CP cyrodil.

Honestly I don't look at "advanced stats" tab, it shows wrong numbers and doesn't show useful stuff so it's largerly irrelevant to me since I know the mechs.

You are looking at spell crit, not stam crit.

Camo hunter doesn't give crit damage, it gives crit chance. Crit chance is capped at 90%. That's a long ride.

Crit damage.. easier to calc it yourself.

For me it's:
150% base
+10% NB passive
+10% Minor Force
+14% Medium armor
+12% Khajit
+17% Shadow (all divines)
+12% Sul-Xan's
= 225%

Also I've heard from other player that crit res applies before cap, so technically you can add 20% on top before you actually hit the cap.

Well considering crit dmg is now capped, I don't think I need 225%. I would be at around 186% because I don't use shadow mundus, Sul-Xan and I don't have that NB passive on a necro.
I have almost all impenetrable gear, but I'm wondering if I should switch it to something else since crit was capped.
But a necro doesn't have cloak, if an invisibility potion doesn't work, and I need to get away, I'm screwed. So maybe I need impen.

Saenic

Jman100582 wrote: »

N3CR01 wrote: »

I was under the impression (could be wrong as I only dabble in pvp) that since everyone runs high crit resist, building for crit was pointless.

thats true, but that doesn't mean that crit shouldn't be balanced out to be as good as non-crit. Again, something like crit resist pen would be awesome

Crit damage effectively IS crit resist pen.

divnyi

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@LittlePinkDot Not much. But I have x1.9 crit multiplier: what you see at screenshot +6% minor force (hemmorhage) +10% sul-xan's = 72% * 225% = 190%.

Now look, I have 29000 stam and 4352 WD buffed.
29000/10.5+4352 = 7113 total WD.

So to have the same amount of skill damage as I have, you need to have 7114*0.9=6402 WD more than me. That goes well above 10k. That's nearly impossible number, even for Simmering Frenzy and Balorgh.

Now if we add malacath to formula: 190%/116% = 163%, to have same damage you need 7114*0.63 = 4481 more WD.
4352+4481 = 8833WD. That's possible number, but only for burst. I have that consistently without burst, with Sul-Xan's proc that is generally easy to obtain for 30s.

Also if anyone buffs me for Weapon Damage, it all multiplies.
Duo with a healer that runs SPC:

See on that screen shot where it says you have 38% crit? The new cap is 125%? So why doesn't it show that? Mine is at 32% now that I slotted camouflaged hunter... But it still only says 32% how do I know if I've hit the cap if it doesn't show it?

And is there anything that Increases damage that doesn't show up on the stats screen that I should also be aware of?
My unbuffed weapon dmg is 4159ish around there.
I'm trying to make this stam necro a ganker in CP cyrodil.

Honestly I don't look at "advanced stats" tab, it shows wrong numbers and doesn't show useful stuff so it's largerly irrelevant to me since I know the mechs.

You are looking at spell crit, not stam crit.

Camo hunter doesn't give crit damage, it gives crit chance. Crit chance is capped at 90%. That's a long ride.

Crit damage.. easier to calc it yourself.

For me it's:
150% base
+10% NB passive
+10% Minor Force
+14% Medium armor
+12% Khajit
+17% Shadow (all divines)
+12% Sul-Xan's
= 225%

Also I've heard from other player that crit res applies before cap, so technically you can add 20% on top before you actually hit the cap.

Well considering crit dmg is now capped, I don't think I need 225%. I would be at around 186% because I don't use shadow mundus, Sul-Xan and I don't have that NB passive on a necro.
I have almost all impenetrable gear, but I'm wondering if I should switch it to something else since crit was capped.
But a necro doesn't have cloak, if an invisibility potion doesn't work, and I need to get away, I'm screwed. So maybe I need impen.

As I said, cap is 225% for PvE and add 20% on top for PvP because crit resistance substracts before cap, so effective cap is at least 245%. So I can even warhorn on top.

If you are not running Well-fitted yet, I suggest you to try it.

LittlePinkDot

divnyi wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@LittlePinkDot Not much. But I have x1.9 crit multiplier: what you see at screenshot +6% minor force (hemmorhage) +10% sul-xan's = 72% * 225% = 190%.

Now look, I have 29000 stam and 4352 WD buffed.
29000/10.5+4352 = 7113 total WD.

So to have the same amount of skill damage as I have, you need to have 7114*0.9=6402 WD more than me. That goes well above 10k. That's nearly impossible number, even for Simmering Frenzy and Balorgh.

Now if we add malacath to formula: 190%/116% = 163%, to have same damage you need 7114*0.63 = 4481 more WD.
4352+4481 = 8833WD. That's possible number, but only for burst. I have that consistently without burst, with Sul-Xan's proc that is generally easy to obtain for 30s.

Also if anyone buffs me for Weapon Damage, it all multiplies.
Duo with a healer that runs SPC:

See on that screen shot where it says you have 38% crit? The new cap is 125%? So why doesn't it show that? Mine is at 32% now that I slotted camouflaged hunter... But it still only says 32% how do I know if I've hit the cap if it doesn't show it?

And is there anything that Increases damage that doesn't show up on the stats screen that I should also be aware of?
My unbuffed weapon dmg is 4159ish around there.
I'm trying to make this stam necro a ganker in CP cyrodil.

Honestly I don't look at "advanced stats" tab, it shows wrong numbers and doesn't show useful stuff so it's largerly irrelevant to me since I know the mechs.

You are looking at spell crit, not stam crit.

Camo hunter doesn't give crit damage, it gives crit chance. Crit chance is capped at 90%. That's a long ride.

Crit damage.. easier to calc it yourself.

For me it's:
150% base
+10% NB passive
+10% Minor Force
+14% Medium armor
+12% Khajit
+17% Shadow (all divines)
+12% Sul-Xan's
= 225%

Also I've heard from other player that crit res applies before cap, so technically you can add 20% on top before you actually hit the cap.

Well considering crit dmg is now capped, I don't think I need 225%. I would be at around 186% because I don't use shadow mundus, Sul-Xan and I don't have that NB passive on a necro.
I have almost all impenetrable gear, but I'm wondering if I should switch it to something else since crit was capped.
But a necro doesn't have cloak, if an invisibility potion doesn't work, and I need to get away, I'm screwed. So maybe I need impen.

As I said, cap is 225% for PvE and add 20% on top for PvP because crit resistance substracts before cap, so effective cap is at least 245%. So I can even warhorn on top.

If you are not running Well-fitted yet, I suggest you to try it.

I was thinking of using more invigorating traits. I'm a resource hog and always use one sustain set. I don't like heavy attacking.

Jameson18

@LittlePinkDot @divnyi

Thoughts on impen trait after patch? With the reintroduction of crit procs?

xDeusEJRx

N3CR01 wrote: »

I was under the impression (could be wrong as I only dabble in pvp) that since everyone runs high crit resist, building for crit was pointless.

Surprisingly enough, that's not true from what I've observed. I'm fairly certain some people have ditched crit resist entirely because of how much critical as a stat has been nerfed since malacath era initiated.

Both in FoA patch and current Ravenwatch I've been able to hit really high numbers off crits on people in PVP. I've been able to two hit some people with crit hits on critical builds.





However, that type of setup can't even be possible anymore because crit rates are so low and now a crit damage cap, had to ditch the other damage set i ran to put on another set providing more crit to even get the same crit rate and damage that I did back then, though now those stats aren't really that viable considering the damage ceiling has gone up and damage taken has been reduced via battle spirit since then and damage has increased since armor has changed a lot since then allowing for higher damage than before, meanwhile I have to focus on medium armor and stacking crit to be a "crit build. Creating a highly unoptimized build at this point, sure a crit build in pvp was already unoptimized but even more so now when the damage ceiling has been raised every patch since Flames of Ambition ,was still fun to play in that playstyle, but now that play style is pretty much been nerfed into the ground.

Basically, in order to run a "crit build" now, you have to build MORE into crit than you did before, all while crit rates are gutted and crit damage now has a cap. Severely killing the playstyle. It's already a thing that the play style is highly unoptimized, now it's highly unoptimized and been nerfed into the dirt making it impossible to play that playstyle with how much critical has been gutted

LeonAkando

Jman100582 wrote: »

It's unbalanced, p2w, and unfair.

Like every MMO ever, buying the main expansion packs gives you the most relevant power. If eso is P2W for having you buy expansions, every MMO is also pay to win.

divnyi

Jameson18 wrote: »

@LittlePinkDot @divnyi

Thoughts on impen trait after patch? With the reintroduction of crit procs?

No impact on PvP, that's PvE thing.
If old acuity was there, then ye, it would be an issue with gankblades.

Crit builds are rare and would be rare. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be viable tho.