2 factions pop locked getting low pop bonus same time PC NA Grey Host, off and on for six hours

DrSlaughtr

There's not much you can do currently for this situation. It costs too much to alliance change an you're not gonna get a whole guild to flip.

So now you gotta take a page out of RISK. The biggest blue guild(s) and the biggest yellow guild(s) need to work together to burn EP from both sides.

xylena_lazarow

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Players have to take some responsibility for the state of the game, and allowing your opponents a chance to recover would be a good way to start.

They won't, because if holding 10 keeps and 6 scrolls still leaves you "losing" on the scoreboard, then they are going PvDoor the map and bully the low pop factions into logging out, just to hold a normal scoring lead.

DrSlaughtr

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Players have to take some responsibility for the state of the game, and allowing your opponents a chance to recover would be a good way to start.

They won't, because if holding 10 keeps and 6 scrolls still leaves you "losing" on the scoreboard, then they are going PvDoor the map and bully the low pop factions into logging out, just to hold a normal scoring lead.

If you're already up by 30k, then gaiting has nothing to do with the score. It's a combination of boredom and griefing.

Vizirith

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

midgetfromtheshire wrote: »

Again you go with the "low pop logging out".

You misunderstand. Some see conspiracy, my argument is futility. Why bother banging your head against a brick wall of high pop zerg, when you can just log out and give a nice score bonus to the few diehards who stick around?

If they really want the low pop faction to have a fighting chance, they'll have to give them buffed stats or raid boss npc guards or something, when they are actually low pop and badly outnumbered, not an hour after they drop to 1 bar and give up.

I actually think adding guards to low pop faction keeps and maybe reducing guards in high pop faction keeps would be cool. Low pop bonus is useless anyway because people either look at the map and leave(not score just map) or look at the pops and leave (not score). The double AP bonus isn't that useful because most people that would otherwise stay when heavily outnumbered probably have more AP then they know what to do with, and the people that need the AP are unlikely to stay to fight outnumbered.

Also bring back the Mercenaries but they can only be bought by a faction with non-bugged low pop bonus.

Reverb

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Players have to take some responsibility for the state of the game, and allowing your opponents a chance to recover would be a good way to start.

They won't, because if holding 10 keeps and 6 scrolls still leaves you "losing" on the scoreboard, then they are going PvDoor the map and bully the low pop factions into logging out, just to hold a normal scoring lead.

That’s not why they’re gating AD and DC. It has nothing to do with score. In fact, the gating and faction stacking is a big cause of why so many AD and DC stopped playing, which further contributes to the pop imbalance.

Since you harp on faction locks, the campaign reset a few days ago, giving EP players opportunity to move to the less populated sides. How many did? Because I still see EP with the huge pop advantage and 2k early score lead, so I’m going to guess none. When there wasn’t faction lock on the main campaign, we saw EP Zerg the map, log over to AD characters to flip it back, just so they could PvDoor it again on EP. sure, only 20-25 of EP did this out of the 100 that gate people during prime time, but enough to leave a bad taste in people’s mouths. Is that what you have in mind when your claim that removing faction locks will solve this? It never did before, why would it now?

xylena_lazarow

Reverb wrote: »

Is that what you have in mind when your claim that removing faction locks will solve this? It never did before, why would it now?

It won't solve it, but more players would have the opportunity to enjoy PvP. There's plenty of EP saying they didn't switch factions at reset because the 2k Crown + 30day commitment = too big an investment and not enough payoff.

Vizirith

Reverb wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

Players have to take some responsibility for the state of the game, and allowing your opponents a chance to recover would be a good way to start.

They won't, because if holding 10 keeps and 6 scrolls still leaves you "losing" on the scoreboard, then they are going PvDoor the map and bully the low pop factions into logging out, just to hold a normal scoring lead.

That’s not why they’re gating AD and DC. It has nothing to do with score. In fact, the gating and faction stacking is a big cause of why so many AD and DC stopped playing, which further contributes to the pop imbalance.

Since you harp on faction locks, the campaign reset a few days ago, giving EP players opportunity to move to the less populated sides. How many did? Because I still see EP with the huge pop advantage and 2k early score lead, so I’m going to guess none. When there wasn’t faction lock on the main campaign, we saw EP Zerg the map, log over to AD characters to flip it back, just so they could PvDoor it again on EP. sure, only 20-25 of EP did this out of the 100 that gate people during prime time, but enough to leave a bad taste in people’s mouths. Is that what you have in mind when your claim that removing faction locks will solve this? It never did before, why would it now?

Well faction imbalances are relatively slow to rebalance, and may take a few camps. However some is also attributed to the fact that ep has a high ratio of pugs to skilled players. Pugs are far less likely to swap to the underdog factions and more likely to swap to the most dominant than skilled players. So ep would be a bit slower to rebalance than other factions.

xylena_lazarow

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you're already up by 30k, then gaiting has nothing to do with the score. It's a combination of boredom and griefing.

You're not wrong, the difference on EP is that there's no longer anyone saying to lay off the low pop factions and let them log back in to get PvP going. The general sentiment is that high pop PvDoor is totally justified if it's what's needed to keep EP atop the scoreboard. Players like to vent their frustrations at EP or believe that players will police themselves, but the only thing that will fix this is pressuring ZOS, not blaming other players.

Nevidyra

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you're already up by 30k, then gaiting has nothing to do with the score. It's a combination of boredom and griefing.

You're not wrong, the difference on EP is that there's no longer anyone saying to lay off the low pop factions and let them log back in to get PvP going. The general sentiment is that high pop PvDoor is totally justified if it's what's needed to keep EP atop the scoreboard. Players like to vent their frustrations at EP or believe that players will police themselves, but the only thing that will fix this is pressuring ZOS, not blaming other players.

Or you can stop griefing AD/DC as EP and let them log back in. Low pop bonus is meant to keep things fair; it's clear EP doesn't enjoy fair competition.

xylena_lazarow

Nevidyra wrote: »

Or you can stop griefing AD/DC as EP and let them log back in. Low pop bonus is meant to keep things fair; it's clear EP doesn't enjoy fair competition.

Painting the map red and keeping it that way is what rewards EP with both AP gain and 1st place on the scoreboard. This is a pretty screwed system and it's on ZOS to change what sort of PvP player behavior is rewarded.

Kwoung

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

No one actually wants to gate both factions at low pop, it's boring and kills PvP, but you literally have to if you want to win the campaign against low pop bonus. It's a self reinforcing problem as the gated faction will log, thus increasing the length of the low pop bonus and the need to ensure the enemy has as few objectives as possible.

Really it just needs to get removed along with faction locks.

Winning the campaign = a couple purple rings once a month that you will decon because they are garbage. I guess that is more rewarding for some than actually getting to PVP or earn AP that you can spend to buy something worthwhile, like desirable gold rings. Because while your Alliances score keeps going up, you aren't earning anything unless you are taking keeps, resources and killing a lot of enemy players. But to each their own, I guess "winning" is more important than actually playing the game to some. /shrug

I PVP for many reasons, and earning AP is pretty close to the top of the list, so I am really starting to enjoy this imbalance, since it allows my friends and I to earn a few hundred thousand AP just bebobbin around in Cyro for a couple hours. It normally takes a mayhem event and all possible bonuses to get AP this easily. Its a double bonus knowing that EP is getting nothing for their efforts. Quite honestly, I feel we are winning and they are the losers. I bet a lot of the EP players who actually want to earn AP feel the same way.

Kwoung

BTW, honest question...

Is there someplace that actually shows who won previous campaigns or is it just a empty win? I have looked and never found it and quite honestly, in most cases, had no idea who even won if I didn't happen to be logged in and checking right before it ended.

deleted221205-002626

I agree with this.. I'm not into my faction gating ad/dc like they do leaving little to no reason for them to even log in. I personally am into the pvp as well but I've been gone too long and few to none that mattered even play anymore or at least currently so nothing can be done. Noone listens to me =p

Reverb

Kwoung wrote: »

BTW, honest question...

Is there someplace that actually shows who won previous campaigns or is it just a empty win? I have looked and never found it and quite honestly, in most cases, had no idea who even won if I didn't happen to be logged in and checking right before it ended.

A lifetime ago, at the height of eso pvp there was an ESO Stats addon that would send campaign data to a website. It would populate and track scores and emperors. we could see exactly who won each campaign cycle, by how much, what the score and pops were at a snapshot in time, how long Kami was Emperor on Chillrend, and how many times Ezareth and Suru each emped on Haderus, etc.

It died out when the population took a nosedive, and the website was wiped and repurposed for different game.

Kwoung

Reverb wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

BTW, honest question...

Is there someplace that actually shows who won previous campaigns or is it just a empty win? I have looked and never found it and quite honestly, in most cases, had no idea who even won if I didn't happen to be logged in and checking right before it ended.

A lifetime ago, at the height of eso pvp there was an ESO Stats addon that would send campaign data to a website. It would populate and track scores and emperors. we could see exactly who won each campaign cycle, by how much, what the score and pops were at a snapshot in time, how long Kami was Emperor on Chillrend, and how many times Ezareth and Suru each emped on Haderus, etc.

It died out when the population took a nosedive, and the website was wiped and repurposed for different game.

Got it, so yeah, basically at this point an empty win you got a couple useless rings for... and most others have no idea you even won a minute after it happened. Why would anyone even care about their faction winning then, if there is no "going down in history" involved? I mean seriously, if all you get is a bad rep for zerging and ruining PVP, without even someplace to point and say "Yeah, but we won!", I don't get it.

And FYI all, not picking on anyone, this is a general statement and applies to whichever faction, on whatever server now or in the future that may be winning their current campaign due to severe imbalance when this is read.

xylena_lazarow

Kwoung wrote: »

Why would anyone even care about their faction winning

Some players enjoy playing for a team win, so they care about the score. Others play for AP gain, for their personal or group skill, to socialize with their friends, or for the sake of getting any PvP action they can. None of these are invalid.

High pop PvDooring the map actually rewards a lot of AP. Gate camping the low pop enemies rewards the high pop faction on the scoreboard (while failing to do so severely punishes the high pop faction). Players will never stop doing these things so long as the game mechanics incentivize these behaviors.

Tiphis

Ep already pop-locked

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Why would anyone even care about their faction winning

Some players enjoy playing for a team win, so they care about the score. Others play for AP gain, for their personal or group skill, to socialize with their friends, or for the sake of getting any PvP action they can. None of these are invalid.

High pop PvDooring the map actually rewards a lot of AP. Gate camping the low pop enemies rewards the high pop faction on the scoreboard (while failing to do so severely punishes the high pop faction). Players will never stop doing these things so long as the game mechanics incentivize these behaviors.

It also is the best way for players of low skill to get kills. They are so proud for the 10v1. And nobody zergs like ep. The amount of times I’ve been bagged is at least 10x higher fighting ep puggles than anybody on dc.

EDIT: Heck their numbers are going up, now they tend not to even drop below 3 bars.

xylena_lazarow

Tiphis wrote: »

It also is the best way for players of low skill to get kills. They are so proud for the 10v1. And nobody zergs like ep.

Every faction zergs when they're high pop, because they are rewarded for it with easy kills and tons of AP.

Tiphis

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

It also is the best way for players of low skill to get kills. They are so proud for the 10v1. And nobody zergs like ep.

Every faction zergs when they're high pop, because they are rewarded for it with easy kills and tons of AP.

Well there's faction v faction fights which isn't actually zerging. The actual term zerg was taken from starcraft where the idea was to overwhelm with numbers (each individual was weaker than the other races but had more numbers). When 2 factions of equal numbers fight, there is no zerging. DC and AD tend to at least respect numbers a bit more. Not saying people don't get zerged down by ad because to make a definitive statement about all players on a faction is obviously flawed. But as far as I can tell generally ad and dc tend to chase less and be less inclined to jump on 1 guy with 5+ numbers.

I was at nik trying to defend it against dc (2-3 v 10-12) and when they got the door down they all came in, I ended up getting a kill in a 1v2 literally at the transitis while a bulk of the dc were just standing there watching. Obviously I was going to die and by no means was I going to be able to defend it myself but I didn't just get pulped. While this was definitely an outlier, it seems that almost every single ep that sees me needs to attack, even if it's 30 v 1. I mean is each one worried that if they didn't attack I'd win the 1v29? I guess I should be flattered.

xylena_lazarow

Tiphis wrote: »

Not saying people don't get zerged down by ad because to make a definitive statement about all players on a faction is obviously flawed. But as far as I can tell generally ad and dc tend to chase less and be less inclined to jump on 1 guy with 5+ numbers.

Every faction does this given the chance. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Tiphis

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Not saying people don't get zerged down by ad because to make a definitive statement about all players on a faction is obviously flawed. But as far as I can tell generally ad and dc tend to chase less and be less inclined to jump on 1 guy with 5+ numbers.

Every faction does this given the chance. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

No

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

There is all this talk of ep on graywatch faction changing, but I got another idea. Can some EP from graywatch come over to blackreach please? Dc and ad got too many players of blackreach and we need some more bodies. If we can get a solid 10 guys to switch servers I think we can take blackreach and grayhost will be more balanced. Don't be faction traitors when there is a perfectly good server you fellas can play on and support your boys.

Joy_Division

The idea that one faction has a different psychological mindset as if those people represent a divergent branch of human evolution and are subject to different emotions and reactions than other people - in a game with admitted rampant faction hopping - is a highly questionable assertion with no emperical evidence to support it.

Kordai

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

There is all this talk of ep on graywatch faction changing, but I got another idea. Can some EP from graywatch come over to blackreach please? Dc and ad got too many players of blackreach and we need some more bodies. If we can get a solid 10 guys to switch servers I think we can take blackreach and grayhost will be more balanced. Don't be faction traitors when there is a perfectly good server you fellas can play on and support your boys.

The reason there are so many ad and dc on blackreach to avoid the imbalance on grey host. The ep aren't going to leave the camp when they are numerically superior.

xylena_lazarow

Tiphis wrote: »

No

You sincerely believe that AD and DC don't also chase solos or roll the map when they're high pop?

This is an unproductive discussion that will hopefully be closed soon.

Tiphis

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

No

You sincerely believe that AD and DC don't also chase solos or roll the map when they're high pop?

This is an unproductive discussion that will hopefully be closed soon.

Oh I'm sure. Haven't seen that outside night capping for a few years now so I'll take your word for it.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The idea that one faction has a different psychological mindset as if those people represent a divergent branch of human evolution and are subject to different emotions and reactions than other people - in a game with admitted rampant faction hopping - is a highly questionable assertion with no emperical evidence to support it.

If you are talking about the initial choice of faction presuming everybody is equal in skill/experience/determination in pvping you are completely correct. If everybody who faction swapped was of equal skill/experience/determination and swapped factions randomly without any reason for why, you are completely correct. If everybody played solo and didn't base any of their decisions on anybody else's then you are completely correct.

Vizirith

Joy_Division wrote: »

The idea that one faction has a different psychological mindset as if those people represent a divergent branch of human evolution and are subject to different emotions and reactions than other people - in a game with admitted rampant faction hopping - is a highly questionable assertion with no emperical evidence to support it.

Well tbf that would be true with a large population (with each faction being a randomly chosen sample), with the size we have now you can't actually presume any larger equality. Kind of like that when NW hit an equal amount of player would be from each faction, but it didn't. Simply because while it might have if the population was 10k, it isn't.

techyeshic

Joy_Division wrote: »

The idea that one faction has a different psychological mindset as if those people represent a divergent branch of human evolution and are subject to different emotions and reactions than other people - in a game with admitted rampant faction hopping - is a highly questionable assertion with no emperical evidence to support it.

I'm not sure it is far off given that there has been more than one attempt to collect a specific type of players into a mass "army" on EP specifically. Then subsequent migration of an opposite subset of players away from EP specifically. I do think it's more likely than you think.

xylena_lazarow

techyeshic wrote: »

I'm not sure it is far off given that there has been more than one attempt to collect a specific type of players into a mass "army" on EP specifically. Then subsequent migration of an opposite subset of players away from EP specifically. I do think it's more likely than you think.

The "army" guy actually disappeared before EP started zerging super hard, it's just been masses of solo zerg surf pugs with a handful of regulars calling where to go in zone. I often go to enemy resources alone as an EP, where either enemy is more than happy to chase me across the map for some quality 6v1. Some of them are even "skilled." Everyone zergs.

Tiphis

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

I'm not sure it is far off given that there has been more than one attempt to collect a specific type of players into a mass "army" on EP specifically. Then subsequent migration of an opposite subset of players away from EP specifically. I do think it's more likely than you think.

The "army" guy actually disappeared before EP started zerging super hard, it's just been masses of solo zerg surf pugs with a handful of regulars calling where to go in zone. I often go to enemy resources alone as an EP, where either enemy is more than happy to chase me across the map for some quality 6v1. Some of them are even "skilled." Everyone zergs.

Wait they sent their whole faction after you? Yeah that is pretty bad. Granted the sheer number imbalance makes it much more likely that ep will zerg. Faction v faction is ep number advantage. If all of ad evenly splits up and ep evenly splits up, each fight is heavily ep advantage. It's simply numbers, by definition smaller numbers are far less likely to be able to zerg because they'd need to find far lower numbers than themselves.

Take 20 ep and 4 ad. For those 4 ad to be able to zerg someone down they'd have to 3v1, 4v1 or 4v2. 4v3 or 3v2 isn't really zerging. For those 20 ep on the other hand, it can be 20v1, 20v2, 20v3, 20v4, 19v1, 19v2, 19v3, 19v4, etc and etc all the way down to 7v3 (7v4 isn't zerging), 7v2, 7v1, 6v3, 6v2, 6v1, 5v2, 5v1, 4v1. Without any mitigating factors, there is 21 times the likelihood to get zerged by the ep.

It's a shame that there's such a number difference. If presuming all factions are all perfectly equal in their zerging habits, the numbers decide. It doesn't matter if I'm the biggest zergling to ever be if I'm heavily outnumbered everywhere I go. The opportunity just isn't there. Ep is nearly always the highest pop, that's just how it is.

Edit: Grammar