2 factions pop locked getting low pop bonus same time PC NA Grey Host, off and on for six hours

EdmondDontes

There is a highly unfortunate side effect of such low population caps in cyrodiil. Yesterday, for more than six hours, two of the factions on PC NA Grey Host were getting low population point bonuses while also being population cap locked. This happened off and on for over six hours.

ZOS, please reconfigure your low pop bonus algorithm and bring the pop caps up to at least 120 per faction please. These super low population caps are really messing up the dynamics beyond the wonky low pop bonus scoring. It's impossible to have any map stability with these low numbers. If two factions don't fight for 20 minutes the third faction is practically gated now, and that's all it takes to gate a faction now with these super low population caps.

CrashTest

What's the low pop bonus? I see it mentioned a lot, but haven't found any info on it.

McMasterx

CrashTest wrote: »

What's the low pop bonus? I see it mentioned a lot, but haven't found any info on it.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Campaigns#Underdog_Bonuses

CrashTest

Interesting. Can see now how it can be exploited.

baselinestun

yes please raise pop caps for EP faction stacks, that will surely increase campaign stability

xylena_lazarow

Here's a couple screenshots from an evening NA primetime last week where AD was pop locked and also receiving low pop bonus. The campaign was still close at that point, largely thanks to the "underdog" system. You'd think that was a good thing, but it's had EP extremely motivated to zerg the map every chance they get to stay ahead of the low pop bonuses.

There's also a number of conspiracy theories regarding groups of players attempting to manipulate the low pop bonus by mass logging out then back in, which are claimed to be the cause of the phenomenon seen below.

Minnesinger

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Here's a couple screenshots from an evening NA primetime last week where AD was pop locked and also receiving low pop bonus. The campaign was still close at that point, largely thanks to the "underdog" system. You'd think that was a good thing, but it's had EP extremely motivated to zerg the map every chance they get to stay ahead of the low pop bonuses.

There's also a number of conspiracy theories regarding groups of players attempting to manipulate the low pop bonus by mass logging out then back in, which are claimed to be the cause of the phenomenon seen below.

Wow how shocked to find a low pop bonus has been applied. Have you met many doors players on your way to the keeps? The populations has been all time low except on EP who quite contrary has had a surge in their population

Minnesinger

Also the low pop bonus does not make anyone stronger it just helps to keep the points even. But the bonuses for pvdooring the map are also shown in the player stats depending on what they have taken it can be health, defensive and offensive bonuses.

Imagine going to play and the map is all one color. The players you play against have all the possiblee advantages plus the population. I think ZOS really need to look at this. The pvp is dying for the fun of the competition is gone.

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techyeshic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Here's a couple screenshots from an evening NA primetime last week where AD was pop locked and also receiving low pop bonus. The campaign was still close at that point, largely thanks to the "underdog" system. You'd think that was a good thing, but it's had EP extremely motivated to zerg the map every chance they get to stay ahead of the low pop bonuses.

There's also a number of conspiracy theories regarding groups of players attempting to manipulate the low pop bonus by mass logging out then back in, which are claimed to be the cause of the phenomenon seen below.

Lol I've seen AD like this even when all 3 factions we're usually locked; but let's not pretend EP would not zerg the entire map. We all know the only thing that keeps some of them from zerging the map 24x7 is that a certain large group of them regularly get rolled if they face any opposition.

xylena_lazarow

techyeshic wrote: »

Lol I've seen AD like this even when all 3 factions we're usually locked; but let's not pretend EP would not zerg the entire map. We all know the only thing that keeps some of them from zerging the map 24x7 is that a certain large group of them regularly get rolled if they face any opposition.

All the factions zerg when they're high pop, there's just gotta be a better way to address that than this mess of a system. The low pop bonus may be keeping the score close, but that in turn has EP extra motivated to paint the map red and zerg their low pop opponents into giving up.

techyeshic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Lol I've seen AD like this even when all 3 factions we're usually locked; but let's not pretend EP would not zerg the entire map. We all know the only thing that keeps some of them from zerging the map 24x7 is that a certain large group of them regularly get rolled if they face any opposition.

All the factions zerg when they're high pop, there's just gotta be a better way to address that than this mess of a system. The low pop bonus may be keeping the score close, but that in turn has EP extra motivated to paint the map red and zerg their low pop opponents into giving up.

Yes; nothing wrong with zerging in a game that is supposed to be about large scale combat. My point is; they'd still take every keep they can, regardless of low pop bonus or not.

Address the ability of a faction to possibly exploit that by logging out in mass then back in; but keeping the score close is good. It already is deflating to log in after one faction ran over the map in off hours to go and retake your stuff every day. No need to sink people's willingness to participate any more.

Kamchuk

I'm out. I'm taking a break from the game and I canceled my membership. I tolerated all the games' degradations in performance, changes to item sets and classes, and nerfs over the years, but the low pop bonus and possible exploit is the one thing I will not tolerate. To me this is taking away from those who work at playing the map and try to win on points and distributing those points to those that do nothing. To me this is a rigged game.

It's a shame that the game has deteriorated to this point. It had so much potential and could have kept customers for years. But to me, it is dead. I'll check back in 6 months. But I have no more optimism in Bethesda Studios and Microsoft.

Take care all.

ResidentContrarian

As expected of a locked campaign...

LonePirate

Minnesinger wrote: »

The populations has been all time low except on EP who quite contrary has had a surge in their population

Except the EP population has not surged. It has sunk as well. During the week (excluding Friday/Saturday night), prime time queues were anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or more and at least double that on weekends. Now, queues are only a couple of minutes long, at most, and often times you can still log into the campaign despite the lock symbol.

Minnesinger

LonePirate wrote: »

Minnesinger wrote: »

The populations has been all time low except on EP who quite contrary has had a surge in their population

Except the EP population has not surged. It has sunk as well. During the week (excluding Friday/Saturday night), prime time queues were anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or more and at least double that on weekends. Now, queues are only a couple of minutes long, at most, and often times you can still log into the campaign despite the lock symbol.

I am talking about 24 hour cycle in Cyrodiil. Before the prime time when EP usually takes the whole map and they are pop locked. Has it always been so I doubt.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

It's actually intended that low pop bonus' proc after a period of low pop regardless of current pop size.
So because (from what I see in this post) EP is pop capped the majority of the time you are actually causing the other factions to receive longer low pop bonus as they are legitimately lower pop for long periods of the day.

Low pop would be quite pointless when you dont have enough players to actually take anything to benefit from the extra points :P

midgetfromtheshire

xylena_lazarow

In the past, I've seen EP players calling to hold back from capping enemy tri-keeps to encourage them to log back in. But not this campaign. Right now, most of EP feels 100% justified in rolling the map every time they're high pop.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

In the past, I've seen EP players calling to hold back from capping enemy tri-keeps to encourage them to log back in. But not this campaign. Right now, most of EP feels 100% justified in rolling the map every time they're high pop.

Low pop bonus is calculated on the 3h population prior to the most recent eval. (it used to be on the 24h prior). You need a snapshot of the population for at least the 3 evals before the current eval. One off screenshots aren't going to show anything unfortunately.

ssewallb14_ESO

No one actually wants to gate both factions at low pop, it's boring and kills PvP, but you literally have to if you want to win the campaign against low pop bonus. It's a self reinforcing problem as the gated faction will log, thus increasing the length of the low pop bonus and the need to ensure the enemy has as few objectives as possible.

Really it just needs to get removed along with faction locks.

Karm1cOne

Ap gain should be tied to population inequality. Lower enemy pop, lower ap gain. Equal pop, high ap gain. The issue will fix itself if the gains reward good pvp play.

xylena_lazarow

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

One off screenshots aren't going to show anything unfortunately.

They show why EP is so motivated to PvDoor the map every chance they get. This is a bad system because it encourages and rewards high pop PvDoor zerging, where it should be dissuading it. I don't know what would be better.

midgetfromtheshire

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

One off screenshots aren't going to show anything unfortunately.

They show why EP is so motivated to PvDoor the map every chance they get. This is a bad system because it encourages and rewards high pop PvDoor zerging, where it should be dissuading it. I don't know what would be better.

System was put in place to encourage players to change factions to take advantage of the AP multiplier, same with getting more people to log into PvP. EP claiming that's the motivation to zerg is abit rich, since the condition only triggers if EP is significantly outnumbering the other factions. Also, we know that a certain runaway zerglord will find any excuse to pretend like they don't zerg.

If EP doesn't want other factions getting lowpop bonus, they can stop zerging and lowpop bonus wouldn't trigger. But hey, if you're EP and before you login and see poplocked EP and 1 bar AD/DC and think to yourself "definitely going to be some great even fights", then you really have no claim to it's unfair.

OtarTheMad

techyeshic wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Lol I've seen AD like this even when all 3 factions we're usually locked; but let's not pretend EP would not zerg the entire map. We all know the only thing that keeps some of them from zerging the map 24x7 is that a certain large group of them regularly get rolled if they face any opposition.

All the factions zerg when they're high pop, there's just gotta be a better way to address that than this mess of a system. The low pop bonus may be keeping the score close, but that in turn has EP extra motivated to paint the map red and zerg their low pop opponents into giving up.

Yes; nothing wrong with zerging in a game that is supposed to be about large scale combat. My point is; they'd still take every keep they can, regardless of low pop bonus or not.

Address the ability of a faction to possibly exploit that by logging out in mass then back in; but keeping the score close is good. It already is deflating to log in after one faction ran over the map in off hours to go and retake your stuff every day. No need to sink people's willingness to participate any more.

Off-hours is not entirely accurate, not saying EP taking the whole map doesn't kill fights and I am not saying they don't nightcap but lately, I have logged in at about 4 pm (ish) my time (west coast so that is 7 pm east coast) and I have seen no population on DC or AD sides. These aren't off-hours, that is more or less prime time.

I think one causes the other honestly, and it's a cycle. I have been on the other factions and I have seen those messages in zone chat to have everyone log out just so they can get low pop and I am on EP where you see them pretty much saying that they have to take the whole map just so they have a chance of winning. No side is innocent truly.

I agree that the system needs changing however every faction zergs the map when no one else is on.

xylena_lazarow

midgetfromtheshire wrote: »

If EP doesn't want other factions getting lowpop bonus, they can stop zerging and lowpop bonus wouldn't trigger.

"Easy fix, just log out and stop playing." You could say that to the low pop factions too to preserve their buff.

midgetfromtheshire

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

midgetfromtheshire wrote: »

If EP doesn't want other factions getting lowpop bonus, they can stop zerging and lowpop bonus wouldn't trigger.

"Easy fix, just log out and stop playing." You could say that to the low pop factions too to preserve their buff.

Or you know, log onto another campaign, BGs?

What's more likely? Faction X zerging or Faction Y/Z logging off in mass to boost an irrelevant score? Considering in every factions zone chat, there are multiple people complaining about "Not enough people there to defend XYZ", yeah I'm going to go with the former. Pugs groups aren't even able to get people to go to same spot, but apparently they can mass coordinate logging off. The latter is PR peddled by the zerging faction when they can't admit they're a zerg.

As @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO already said, lowpop bonus is trigger from pop measured over a set period of time. That means you've been zerging the other factions for at least an hour and patting yourselves on the back when you roll over solo players.

xylena_lazarow

midgetfromtheshire wrote: »

Or you know, log onto another campaign, BGs? As @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO already said, lowpop bonus is trigger from pop measured over a set period of time. That means you've been zerging the other factions for at least an hour and patting yourselves on the back when you roll over solo players.

You're trying to put this on players to police themselves, which we can no longer do thanks to faction locks. I'm trying to put this on ZOS to come up with a better system. I get that it's intended as a catchup mechanism, but it's a bad one, because it doubles down on rewarding high pop PvDoor and low pop logging out.

MiserynCompany

🤣

midgetfromtheshire

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

midgetfromtheshire wrote: »

Or you know, log onto another campaign, BGs? As @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO already said, lowpop bonus is trigger from pop measured over a set period of time. That means you've been zerging the other factions for at least an hour and patting yourselves on the back when you roll over solo players.

You're trying to put this on players to police themselves, which we can no longer do thanks to faction locks. I'm trying to put this on ZOS to come up with a better system. I get that it's intended as a catchup mechanism, but it's a bad one, because it doubles down on rewarding high pop PvDoor and low pop logging out.

Again you go with the "low pop logging out". Low pop is triggering because surprise surprise, one faction is poplocked in a dead map, not because there is any coordinated logging off. Sounds exactly like the lemmings over the years who don't understand game mechanics in pvp like cc immunity, speed or los so they chalk it down to "hacks".

xylena_lazarow

midgetfromtheshire wrote: »

Again you go with the "low pop logging out".

You misunderstand. Some see conspiracy, my argument is futility. Why bother banging your head against a brick wall of high pop zerg, when you can just log out and give a nice score bonus to the few diehards who stick around?

If they really want the low pop faction to have a fighting chance, they'll have to give them buffed stats or raid boss npc guards or something, when they are actually low pop and badly outnumbered, not an hour after they drop to 1 bar and give up.

biminirwb17_ESO

I agree with Xylena that the low pop bonus system needs updating, it leads to poor outcomes for the low pop faction. "Oh look faction x has 300 points this eval - take all their stuffs quick"

Linking the bonus to keeps and resources held means that a low pop faction wont hold too many. Just make it a flat bonus so if you have no keeps or resources you still get the same score as the leading faction. This will negate the desire to gate camp in many players and result in a better experience.

I know experienced players like Xylena on all factions have tried to stop people defending the tri keeps of scroll less factions but this has become far too common in the last few months.

Players have to take some responsibility for the state of the game, and allowing your opponents a chance to recover would be a good way to start.