Are they going to offer the option to change from Khajit with the new crit damage cap?

ck37090

I'm so irritated with the crap they do. I could careless about the cap but I switched multiple characters to Khajit because they were BIS (even if by a small margin in cases). Many/most of the builds I use already go over the cap, so basically now Khajit is a waste unless I decide to modify all my builds and even then if you want to maintain the ability to use multiple builds they aren't worth considering. [snip] Maybe i'm alone but i'm completely frustrated and irritated with ZOS.

[edited for conspiracy theory]

Artemis_X_

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

ck37090

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

basically in many builds, no...ie. just looking at probably my most used build on a magika character I am at 143% crit damage with minor force and khajit and 1 piece of leather armor (kilt), so yeah...it isn't worth being khajit, its wasted...even getting rid of minor force, khajit is still a waste.

MECHA_STREISAND

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

100% this. Being able to drop Fighting Finesse AND Backstabber AND Barbed Trap and still hit hit the maximum crit damage opens up so many possibilities to increase damage elsewhere.

Einstein_

ck37090 wrote: »

I'm so irritated with the crap they do. I could careless about the cap but I switched multiple characters to Khajit because they were BIS (even if by a small margin in cases). Many/most of the builds I use already go over the cap, so basically now Khajit is a waste unless I decide to modify all my builds and even then if you want to maintain the ability to use multiple builds they aren't worth considering. [snip] Maybe i'm alone but i'm completely frustrated and irritated with ZOS.

[snip]

its normal that in a mmo things change, live with it and be happy. You can ez build slightly diffrent, and if you really need that 1k DPS diffrents then you need to invest some gold/crowns.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Fennwitty

Whatever the reasons, yes races change over time.

Don't chase meta quite that hard unless you have a ton of disposable income.

ck37090

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

100% this. Being able to drop Fighting Finesse AND Backstabber AND Barbed Trap and still hit hit the maximum crit damage opens up so many possibilities to increase damage elsewhere.

I don't disagree that you can possibly drop something. My point was that I switched characters to Khajit which even with that in consideration will be a worse race to use. Ie. obviously not exact but say dropping backstabber or fighting finesse, for sake of argument Khajit offsets those, but you can only get 150 spell damage for the same cost through the tree...Altmer will be a better option all day, everyday with 250 spell damage and more magicka.

My argument isn't with the change...and believe me I know all of you that are posting probably don't care about maximum effectiveness, which is fine but they keep making changes to what is the most effective races and for people that do care, its irritating

Facefister

Fennwitty wrote: »

Whatever the reasons, yes races change over time.

Don't chase meta quite that hard unless you have a ton of disposable income.

Or you when don't play in a hard progression environment.

Jameson18

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

100% this. Being able to drop Fighting Finesse AND Backstabber AND Barbed Trap and still hit hit the maximum crit damage opens up so many possibilities to increase damage elsewhere.

This.

pandazooka

ck37090 wrote: »

I'm so irritated with the crap they do. I could careless about the cap but I switched multiple characters to Khajit because they were BIS (even if by a small margin in cases). Many/most of the builds I use already go over the cap, so basically now Khajit is a waste unless I decide to modify all my builds and even then if you want to maintain the ability to use multiple builds they aren't worth considering. [snip] Maybe i'm alone but i'm completely frustrated and irritated with ZOS.

Khajiits and Dunmer were only BIS DPS at the start of this year, with Altmer and Orcs being the best DPS before them. They give free race change tokens for that.

Things will fall in and out of favour over time in live-service games like MMOs. Chasing the meta is expensive, both in-game gold and real money. This is something you should have considered if you're going to chase the meta this hard. You've only got yourself to blame.

[edited to remove quote]

pandazooka

pandazooka wrote: »

They give free race change tokens for that.

Sorry, I meant to say they DIDN'T.

Xebov

I dont see any reason to give out race change tokens. The races have not changed and Kajiit are not going to be useless, the crit damage will simply allow you to drop another source and free the slot.

kojou

This is why I don't bother with race changes... As long as you have a "Magicka" or "Stamina" race then just go with it. If Altmer is better than Khajiit it is likely only by a small %. A mistake in your rotation will have a bigger impact than a race change IMO.

BattleAxe

ck37090 wrote: »

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

100% this. Being able to drop Fighting Finesse AND Backstabber AND Barbed Trap and still hit hit the maximum crit damage opens up so many possibilities to increase damage elsewhere.

I don't disagree that you can possibly drop something. My point was that I switched characters to Khajit which even with that in consideration will be a worse race to use. Ie. obviously not exact but say dropping backstabber or fighting finesse, for sake of argument Khajit offsets those, but you can only get 150 spell damage for the same cost through the tree...Altmer will be a better option all day, everyday with 250 spell damage and more magicka.

My argument isn't with the change...and believe me I know all of you that are posting probably don't care about maximum effectiveness, which is fine but they keep making changes to what is the most effective races and for people that do care, its irritating

Well In dropping backstabber you could invest in a different cp node not necessarily only the increased spell dmg there are other nodes to increase dmg also in being over the cap keep in mind sometimes buffs or debuffs that boost crit dmg might not be there khajit actually has the benefit of being able to use a different cp set up unlike virtually all other dd races

renne

They didn't the last time they made an actual major change to the races, why would they for a minor change now?

MashmalloMan

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

100% this. Being able to drop Fighting Finesse AND Backstabber AND Barbed Trap and still hit hit the maximum crit damage opens up so many possibilities to increase damage elsewhere.

You would assume so.. except the "alternate choices" are all bad options.

Speaking from a Stam perspective that already has Medium Armor.

CP:

• DoT damage done? Maybe accounts for 30-40% of your total DPS.. when Crit Chance can get as high as 70%.
• AoE damage done.. sometimes even a lower % depending on the class vs DoT damage.
• 165 Weapon Damage.. well then why choose a Khajiit to begin with when you could play as a Dark Elf/Orc for 258 weapon damage and more stamina.

Minor Force:

• It comes from 1 of the strongest skills in the game.. Barbed Trap, even if you didn't need Minor Force, you'd still want to run this. Proportionally, it does about 25k damage per cast vs a 10k spammable.

Mundus:

• Thief is already more common to use than Shadow.

Weapons:

• Daggers are already more common to use than Axes.

Armor:

• It's kind of twisted to expect a Stamina Khajiit player to wear More Light Armor so that their racial passive doesn't put them above the cap, no other DPS class needs to do this. There are notable drawbacks to using more Light Armor like crappier stamina Sustain and less Armor, so it's not like it's a win/win where you just get more Crit Chance and Pen. The most a Stamina player would do is 5/2 probably.

So yeah.. on paper, just choose something else, you get flexibility, but in reality, every other option is worse so there is no equal choice for a Medium khajiit to avoid Crit Damage cap. Even worse for a NB/Templar/Warden..

Tannus15

Counter point.

They should balance and change the game regardless of whatever short term pain this causes.
BiS will, and should, change every patch because otherwise the patch did literally nothing for end game.

So, here is my honest opinion. Khajiit becoming BiS was a very slight advantage, honestly it wasn't enough that you should have bothered with it in the first place. You knew it was going to be potentially more expensive than swapping out gear because it can only be undone by crowns. Swapping back to altmer now you also run the risk that the crit damage cap increases next update if the dev team decide they over nerfed it and want to correct. Or maybe next patch they change khajiit back to crit chance instead of crit damage and they return to BiS.

This is all on you. You made the choice to swap to khajiit. you're now making the choice to swap to altmer. in the future you're going to cry foul again when another race gets a slight advantage again.
If you're not willing to pay the cost, stop buying the goods.

Syrusthevirus187

If you changed all your toons to chase an extra 1% then you aren't a casual player and should have a ton of gold to buy race changes every time this happens.

Ryuvain

Im glad that khajiit wont be meta anymore. Was annoying seeing all the nerf threads.

Grandchamp1989

Tannus15 wrote: »

Counter point.

They should balance and change the game regardless of whatever short term pain this causes.
BiS will, and should, change every patch because otherwise the patch did literally nothing for end game.

So, here is my honest opinion. Khajiit becoming BiS was a very slight advantage, honestly it wasn't enough that you should have bothered with it in the first place. You knew it was going to be potentially more expensive than swapping out gear because it can only be undone by crowns. Swapping back to altmer now you also run the risk that the crit damage cap increases next update if the dev team decide they over nerfed it and want to correct. Or maybe next patch they change khajiit back to crit chance instead of crit damage and they return to BiS.

This is all on you. You made the choice to swap to khajiit. you're now making the choice to swap to altmer. in the future you're going to cry foul again when another race gets a slight advantage again.
If you're not willing to pay the cost, stop buying the goods.

The amount of apathy and indifference towards other people, with legit concerns, never cease to amaze me on this forum.

Here is how I see it..
If you bought a brand new BMW and after a year took it to the mechanic, and they put an old Honda engine in it, people would be.. shall we say dissapointed? You buy a product and then they change the product you bought into something lesser.

Before you had a 10 second car.. now you got a one minute car. GG

"Well you made the choice of buying a BMW and take it to the mechanic that is on you"

Come on man..

"Well, you knew a mechanic would have to oversee it at some point right?"

Yeah but I didn't expect the mechanic to overhaul the product into something lesser.

I will say that from my perspective I understand OPs frustrations just fine.

MECHA_STREISAND

Never mind the fact that old Honda engines were essentially de-tuned race engines capable of silly horsepower, the analogy is more akin to your new BMW having an EMS software update because it didn't meet emissions standards and shock horror it cost you 3bhp.

Argument ad absurdum aside, all of the meta build videos clearly state that Khajit only have a very slight advantage. If you paid money to follow the meta, the good news is that meta hasn't changed. Hell even my wood elf was getting over 150% critical damage, so all of the classes are going to have to re-spec, not just Khajit.

Chilly-McFreeze

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Counter point.

They should balance and change the game regardless of whatever short term pain this causes.
BiS will, and should, change every patch because otherwise the patch did literally nothing for end game.

So, here is my honest opinion. Khajiit becoming BiS was a very slight advantage, honestly it wasn't enough that you should have bothered with it in the first place. You knew it was going to be potentially more expensive than swapping out gear because it can only be undone by crowns. Swapping back to altmer now you also run the risk that the crit damage cap increases next update if the dev team decide they over nerfed it and want to correct. Or maybe next patch they change khajiit back to crit chance instead of crit damage and they return to BiS.

This is all on you. You made the choice to swap to khajiit. you're now making the choice to swap to altmer. in the future you're going to cry foul again when another race gets a slight advantage again.
If you're not willing to pay the cost, stop buying the goods.

The amount of apathy and indifference towards other people, with legit concerns, never cease to amaze me on this forum.

So shall the devs throw over everything they've done and are planning to do because of someone loosing an iota of power?
Good. My Dark Elves currently aren't BiS by a very small margin. Give me crown tokens! And when the next race get's pushed off the pedestal, give me some more!

It was his choice to throw money out of the window for a very small advantage. Why should anyone care unless things get turned completely upside down?

Grandchamp1989

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

Never mind the fact that old Honda engines were essentially de-tuned race engines capable of silly horsepower, the analogy is more akin to your new BMW having an EMS software update because it didn't meet emissions standards and shock horror it cost you 3bhp.

Argument ad absurdum aside, all of the meta build videos clearly state that Khajit only have a very slight advantage. If you paid money to follow the meta, the good news is that meta hasn't changed. Hell even my wood elf was getting over 150% critical damage, so all of the classes are going to have to re-spec, not just Khajit.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Counter point.

They should balance and change the game regardless of whatever short term pain this causes.
BiS will, and should, change every patch because otherwise the patch did literally nothing for end game.

So, here is my honest opinion. Khajiit becoming BiS was a very slight advantage, honestly it wasn't enough that you should have bothered with it in the first place. You knew it was going to be potentially more expensive than swapping out gear because it can only be undone by crowns. Swapping back to altmer now you also run the risk that the crit damage cap increases next update if the dev team decide they over nerfed it and want to correct. Or maybe next patch they change khajiit back to crit chance instead of crit damage and they return to BiS.

This is all on you. You made the choice to swap to khajiit. you're now making the choice to swap to altmer. in the future you're going to cry foul again when another race gets a slight advantage again.
If you're not willing to pay the cost, stop buying the goods.

The amount of apathy and indifference towards other people, with legit concerns, never cease to amaze me on this forum.

So shall the devs throw over everything they've done and are planning to do because of someone loosing an iota of power?
Good. My Dark Elves currently aren't BiS by a very small margin. Give me crown tokens! And when the next race get's pushed off the pedestal, give me some more!

It was his choice to throw money out of the window for a very small advantage. Why should anyone care unless things get turned completely upside down?

It is more in the sense that you bought a race and then they COMPLETELY overhauled how crit works with a hard cap which may change pretty much most aspects of your build. This is especially noticable IF you play the khajiit race and the effect of the change seems to unproportionally affect Khajiit players.

I'm not opposed to a race change token myself.
But even if you don't hold that idea, the apathy is a tad bit much at times, honestly.
the cynical gamer stereotype got played out around 2005.

MECHA_STREISAND

Right but that hard cap affects every race, not just Khajit! Yes they had an advantage as they could spec outrageous crit damage builds, which is no longer the case. However, they still have an advantage in that they don't have to put anything into crit damage at all - they are free to make use of light armour for better crit chance & penetration, to use other slottable CP which buff outright damage and / or certain damage types, to drop a previously mandatory skill from their rotation in favour of a hard-hitting spammable or another DoT. They still have a clear advantage, as other races will still have to compromise elsewhere to meet the crit damage cap.

It's not apathy - that's just as unfair to other commenters as them saying "you did this to yourself" - it's that we don't think you are seeing the bigger picture of how Khajit will probably still be the meta race. If all you see is not being able to do 160% crit damage anymore then you're missing out on a world of opportunity here.

Troodon80

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of apathy and indifference towards other people, with legit concerns, never cease to amaze me on this forum.

It's not apathy, it's sense. I'm also playing khajiit on one character. I get a minimal DPS inscrease. Will I race change? Probably not. If I do, it will probably be the last race change I make on that character as I rarely play it outside of overland content. When a person race changes for "meta" or "BiS" reasons, that is a choice they make themselves. Whether it's top-tier score pushing end game or mid-tier trying to eke out as much as they can, where 1k DPS (per person) is somewhat meaningful, or a random new player who looks at some content creator's guide (not even understanding why crit damage is beneficial (nor will be at low levels with no CP)).

No one made them do it. ZOS always, always curtails meta when it gets too prevalent. As does every MMO. Most people who know ZOS's trends could see that they would eventually do something to hit khajiit (which is also why I didn't change more of mine), whether directly or indirectly, with everyone and their mothers using it.

The people who contributed to ZOS's desire to set this cap are the people who are now complaining about said cap. And once everyone changes back to altmer or dunmer for magicka or orc for stamina, ZOS will do another racial rebalance in a year or so.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Here is how I see it..
If you bought a brand new BMW and after a year took it to the mechanic, and they put an old Honda engine in it, people would be.. shall we say dissapointed? You buy a product and then they change the product you bought into something lesser.

I find it utterly baffling how or why anyone would make an analogy to a car, vehicle in general, or a product versus a service. The same goes for the developer who shall not be named regarding the Maelstrom staves. The argument just doesn't work.

But let's put a different spin on this. They haven't touched your car. The engine is still perfectly fine, the same as it was before you took it to the mechanic. Instead, your government or local road authority instituted new speed limits because everyone had faster and more powerful vehicles, they put in speed bumps everywhere, speed cameras, etc. to make sure you adhere to the new speed limits.

Khajiit have not been changed. The crit damage cap has. That's not a change to khajiit or your car.

Asking for something in return from ZOS because you made the conscious choice to play meta is like asking the government to give you a brand new electric or hybrid car/engine because of the implemented speed changes making yoru car generally too fast. I'm sure some people would do that, but... I can't imagine anyone in their right mind doing so.

Grandchamp1989

Troodon80 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The amount of apathy and indifference towards other people, with legit concerns, never cease to amaze me on this forum.

It's not apathy, it's sense. I'm also playing khajiit on one character. I get a minimal DPS inscrease. Will I race change? Probably not. If I do, it will probably be the last race change I make on that character as I rarely play it outside of overland content. When a person race changes for "meta" or "BiS" reasons, that is a choice they make themselves. Whether it's top-tier score pushing end game or mid-tier trying to eke out as much as they can, where 1k DPS (per person) is somewhat meaningful, or a random new player who looks at some content creator's guide (not even understanding why crit damage is beneficial (nor will be at low levels with no CP)).

No one made them do it. ZOS always, always curtails meta when it gets too prevalent. As does every MMO. Most people who know ZOS's trends could see that they would eventually do something to hit khajiit (which is also why I didn't change more of mine), whether directly or indirectly, with everyone and their mothers using it.

The people who contributed to ZOS's desire to set this cap are the people who are now complaining about said cap. And once everyone changes back to altmer or dunmer for magicka or orc for stamina, ZOS will do another racial rebalance in a year or so.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Here is how I see it..
If you bought a brand new BMW and after a year took it to the mechanic, and they put an old Honda engine in it, people would be.. shall we say dissapointed? You buy a product and then they change the product you bought into something lesser.

I find it utterly baffling how or why anyone would make an analogy to a car, vehicle in general, or a product versus a service. The same goes for the developer who shall not be named regarding the Maelstrom staves. The argument just doesn't work.

But let's put a different spin on this. They haven't touched your car. The engine is still perfectly fine, the same as it was before you took it to the mechanic. Instead, your government or local road authority instituted new speed limits because everyone had faster and more powerful vehicles, they put in speed bumps everywhere, speed cameras, etc. to make sure you adhere to the new speed limits.

Khajiit have not been changed. The crit damage cap has. That's not a change to khajiit or your car.

Asking for something in return from ZOS because you made the conscious choice to play meta is like asking the government to give you a brand new electric or hybrid car/engine because of the implemented speed changes making yoru car generally too fast. I'm sure some people would do that, but... I can't imagine anyone in their right mind doing so.

If they changed the roads so peoples cars were negatively affected by the change I'm sure tons of people would complain.
I actually like your methaphor more than mine, you made my point. I appreciate it xD

BejaProphet

Good news. You already have the chance to change from Khajiit. That’s been a thing for awhile.

Troodon80

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If they changed the roads so peoples cars were negatively affected by the change I'm sure tons of people would complain.
I actually like your methaphor more than mine, you made my point. I appreciate it xD

If you think I've made your point for you, you have thoroughly misread the entire post. No one is negatively affecting the car. It negatively affects the people driving those cars. The restriction applies to everyone. You might consider this a matter of semantics, but it's really not. Whether your car is 0 to 60 in 2 seconds or 0 to 60 in 20 seconds matters not when you are in a 30 or 40 zone.

Of course you will still get people who complain when they get a ticket, etc. But the point is, whether it was a good choice or a bad one, it was still their choice. It's not apathy, it's called sense. If you change to chase the meta every patch or every other patch, don't expect people to feel sorry for you. Since we're on these idiotic car analogies, it's the same as being caught speeding. Choice and consequence, action and reaction. That's all there is to it. ZOS doesn't owe people free race change tokens. Nor does the government owe you a brand new car because they changed the speed limits.

There are plenty of times when ZOS has changed the car, so to speak, in various ways (e.g. see the racial rebalance which made khajiit relevant now since you can stack up enough crit rating (also an engine change) to benefit from it, changing the critial strike from Carnage to critical damage in Feline Ambush, interesting how no one complained when this became meta and no one made moronic car analogies about it at that point). This, however, is not one of those times. Khajiit are not being changed. Your car is not being changed.

The two are also not comparable because this is a rolling service and not a standalone product. A service such as this is constantly changing, for better or for worse (depending on your perspective), and... is also governed by a terms of service, in which ZOS already (basically) says it doesn't owe you anything (see Section 6; though I would urge people to read the whole thing).

starlizard70ub17_ESO

If a level cap is the reason you're changing from a Khajiit, then you were never a real Khajiit in the first place.

karekiz

I don't think they should change the racial. It just makes Khajiit a more Magic based race <Sorta>.

I do think they should just offer a single race change token /shrug.

AinSoph

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

I guess they don't need any medium armor or minor force in their build?

100% this. Being able to drop Fighting Finesse AND Backstabber AND Barbed Trap and still hit hit the maximum crit damage opens up so many possibilities to increase damage elsewhere.

And then you realize that a lot of the damage CP really isn't that good which ends up being a DPS loss just for being khajiit.