What is the highest dps check in the game?

temerley

Franchise408 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

DinoZavr wrote: »

Good experienced players get 120K..135K sustained DPS on trial dummy,
check SkinnyCheeks, Liko and Xynode on youtube
for shorter parses 190K is reachable, there were several posts on PTS forum recently

This translates into 35K..40K on non-buffing dummy, but there are no scripts
and using scrips with gamers keyboards violates TOS because of automation.

The addon you can use on PC to perfect your rotation is WeaveDelays
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2657-WeaveDelays.html
There are other good addons like Combat Metronome which help with timing in players rotations,
but they do not perform actions instead of player.
Combat Metrix is a great tool for measuring your sustained DPS.

Xynode, lmfao

just out of curiosity, is there any stigma around Xynode?
I have found many of his videos quite helpful myself.

Xynode mechanics guide (except some trial hm) = good, actually one of the best guides except for when pushing like trifectas and stuff.

Xynode build guides = fun, just not as "endgame viable" as he claimed to be.

Imagine a healer with resto/s&b, is that fun to play? Hell yeah! But I wouldn't bring that on a vet trial, specially not hm.

Because of xynode, newbies think that's okay and when they actually go to harder content some won't accept the meta and think of the end game players as "toxic elitist" for pushing actual useful sets that they need to use for group synergy.

Honestly, I don't know man, xynode is a really good player (IMO) with his solo runs and stuff but I think the hate for him will be gone if he actually puts a disclaimer that his builds are not for all content and maybe actually do some optimal set-ups.

But I guess that's what sells and as ESO is more and more leaning towards casual play then those builds will become more and more prevalent.

Except those builds absolutely can be used for endgame content.

Just because they might not be meta / trifecta level doesn't mean they aren't efficient or effective. Meta isn't required in any content to clear.

For clearing, yes but you can’t tell me that they are as effective or as efficient. Excessive logs and testing are available and even if you don’t LA weave due to some disability or L2P issue, those meta builds will still outperform xynode’s build anytime

Franchise408

thorwyn wrote: »

Meta isn't required in any content to clear.

So what have you cleared in non-meta gear so far?

Multiple vet trials.

Franchise408

temerley wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

DinoZavr wrote: »

Good experienced players get 120K..135K sustained DPS on trial dummy,
check SkinnyCheeks, Liko and Xynode on youtube
for shorter parses 190K is reachable, there were several posts on PTS forum recently

This translates into 35K..40K on non-buffing dummy, but there are no scripts
and using scrips with gamers keyboards violates TOS because of automation.

The addon you can use on PC to perfect your rotation is WeaveDelays
https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2657-WeaveDelays.html
There are other good addons like Combat Metronome which help with timing in players rotations,
but they do not perform actions instead of player.
Combat Metrix is a great tool for measuring your sustained DPS.

Xynode, lmfao

just out of curiosity, is there any stigma around Xynode?
I have found many of his videos quite helpful myself.

Xynode mechanics guide (except some trial hm) = good, actually one of the best guides except for when pushing like trifectas and stuff.

Xynode build guides = fun, just not as "endgame viable" as he claimed to be.

Imagine a healer with resto/s&b, is that fun to play? Hell yeah! But I wouldn't bring that on a vet trial, specially not hm.

Because of xynode, newbies think that's okay and when they actually go to harder content some won't accept the meta and think of the end game players as "toxic elitist" for pushing actual useful sets that they need to use for group synergy.

Honestly, I don't know man, xynode is a really good player (IMO) with his solo runs and stuff but I think the hate for him will be gone if he actually puts a disclaimer that his builds are not for all content and maybe actually do some optimal set-ups.

But I guess that's what sells and as ESO is more and more leaning towards casual play then those builds will become more and more prevalent.

Except those builds absolutely can be used for endgame content.

Just because they might not be meta / trifecta level doesn't mean they aren't efficient or effective. Meta isn't required in any content to clear.

For clearing, yes but you can’t tell me that they are as effective or as efficient. Excessive logs and testing are available and even if you don’t LA weave due to some disability or L2P issue, those meta builds will still outperform xynode’s build anytime

I didn't say they were as efficient.

I said that they can be used, and I specified for clearing.

Avoranti

I wasn’t going to name drop any content creators specifically. But since it was mentioned. Most of Xy’s builds, although not meta, absolutely can be used in the hardest endgame content. And often, he demonstrates such. That is very important. Other content creators I’ve seen usually just show their builds and you never see them in actual content.

As for meta, I’ve never been a meta player. I feel too many gear options get overlooked because of this and thus, I prefer theory crafting and such. Which is partially why I think devs keep changing gear stuff. Trying to break the meta. But there will always be a meta in ESO. However, in the prog team I’m a part of, I did have to compromise for the group or otherwise I would have been excluded. Which is unfortunate. One of my characters is an Argonion Necro healer, when I created it, I was told “why did you make that? No trial group would let you play. Should have made a Templar or warden”. And now, Necro healers are one of the best and looked for in end-game.

When talking about “scripts” I’m not referring to 3rd party nonsense. I’m talking about the actual formula written in the game code and when referring to dps check of 30k I think we all know that any player who understand gear, class and skills would naturally have a higher dps without even trying.

There was an “all about mechanics” video of vhof about a year ago where it was commented that a group completed it with DD’s who had just 27k dps and that high dps wasn’t necessary but helps the fight go faster.

In the conversation I had with another player they were referring to dps check formulas that the game uses in the source code to determine mechanics and difficulty and I was told that this formula is the same for every group content and is based around the 3-6mil vs 21mil. The only difference is the mechanics and timed mechanics for each piece of content. They also referenced the 3-6mil dummies and why the 21 mil was added and it’s intended use vs what it’s being used for today. While the meta seems to be the 21 mil trial dummy, it seems that parsing as a whole gives false results. Because the dummies do not move or attack, there aren’t any mechanics where the player has to move or anything that happens in actual combat. Some old school players might have more insight to those references.

There was another comment regarding VAS and the recent update. Suggesting that groups have been relying on brute force rather than mechanics and such. This made me wonder how many end-game completes have been relying on brute force to bypass mechanics rather than just playing them out? It also had me curious as to if those same groups could get those same completes playing mechanics rather than using brute force? Seeing how weapon dmg and crit seem to continue to take a hit each patch, is it possible the devs are trying to eliminate the brute force tactic and force players into learning and playing mechanics more?

tmbrinks

There will ALWAYS be a "meta" in a game where everything is not exactly equal.

Now, can there be lots of builds that are very close to the same, yes.

When you're in a trial group, you have to also be considerate of the other 11 people in that group. And if you want to bring a build that is significantly "off-meta" and statistically does less damage (or healing output, or is less survivable as a tank), unless everybody else in the group is okay with it... I feel that's being somewhat selfish. You are making it so they have to do more to make up for the shortcomings of that build.

Just having a build "clear" content, doesn't mean necessarily that it really can "clear" content. To test, you'd need a whole raid using those builds, as the person in the off-meta setup could have simply been carried through the content by the other 11 players making up for their build's shortcomings. (I've run with some other content creators... I KNOW their builds work... as our group has gotten Godslayer, TTT, Dawnbringer, etc... with them... on those builds )

That said, there are probably hundreds of DPS builds that can clear any and all content in the game.

I guarantee you could take any end-game raid group, put the entire group entirely in crafted sets and they could still clear most, if not all, of the HMs in the game.

MEBengalsFan2001

temerley wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I took two DPS well below the 30K threshold through most of the DLC dungeons about a year ago. The most important thing is learning mechanics and group synergy, buffs, debuffs, etc...

From playing so many other MMOs the most important thing to beat content is working as a TEAM to complete the content. Any player or group that focuses on one variable such as your maximum DPS is not worth running with unless you and the group are trying to achieve the top score in a trail. Otherwise I recommend looking for another group.

You can bring a low dps and still complete content, higher dps just means more comfortable runs, heck you can like basically 3-man most trifecta dungeons and that's called carries.

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

As someone that prefers running support roles, I find that being a DPS is boring and takes less skill to play from my experience. You simply learn a rotation and after a while it become easy whereas the support roles always seem to have extra stuff to do such as call outs, focus on doing XYZ, etc...

Ahh, yeah... Don't assume that. DPS needs:

1. Skill and practice to break top damage, tell me it's boring when you have to double cast your boneyard while moving or losing damage cause you missed a light attack for your bow proc. Good dps are skilled.
2. They need to be mechanically aware of the mechanics while maintaining their damage output.
3. If they are running support sets, they need to keep that up same as healers/tanks
4. If they are running bahsei, they need to monitor their mag for max damage (like mk for supports)
5. If you're gunning for trifecta, mind you, not score but completes. The dps needs to output the best damage while doing mechs, they need to memorize spawn points for pre-damage, they need to know when to save their ults for priority targets.

TBH I find your statement nice but the last part speaks ignorance of the dps role, it's a group effort and every role is hard until you got good experience to execute your duties to the dot.

DPS main focus is rotation and rotation is all about muscle memory. Yeah they need to be aware of mechanics as well but typically its the healers and tanks calling those out to simplify the run. Having higher DPS does make content easier but most of the so called higher end DPS I have run with tend to do worst in real content than at a sparing target. I rather run with someone with lower DPS that is willing to work with the TEAM than someone who simply wants to PHEW PHEW PHEW their way through content.

anitajoneb17_ESO

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I rather run with someone with lower DPS that is willing to work with the TEAM than someone who simply wants to PHEW PHEW PHEW their way through content.

In other words, you prefer a well managed TEAM rather than an addition of individual forces.

Long story short :

- A well managed team of average skilled players will clear content
- A badly managed team with super top players will clear content
- A well managed team of super top players will clear content + make leaderboards
- A badly managed team with average players will fail to clear content, blame the damage dealers and push DPS requirements.

Most groups fall into this last category, which explains why the DPS requirements are going through the roof and far above the actual game's requirements. And subsequently even more players will rush for meta in order to try and meet those requirements. It'a circle (not sure whether virtuous or vicious).

CaffeinatedMayhem

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I rather run with someone with lower DPS that is willing to work with the TEAM than someone who simply wants to PHEW PHEW PHEW their way through content.

In other words, you prefer a well managed TEAM rather than an addition of individual forces.

Long story short :

- A well managed team of average skilled players will clear content
- A badly managed team with super top players will clear content
- A well managed team of super top players will clear content + make leaderboards
- A badly managed team with average players will fail to clear content, blame the damage dealers and push DPS requirements.

Most groups fall into this last category, which explains why the DPS requirements are going through the roof and far above the actual game's requirements. And subsequently even more players will rush for meta in order to try and meet those requirements. It'a circle (not sure whether virtuous or vicious).

Wait, who ever blames DPS? I get blamed FAR more often as tank, or the healers! (DPS you still have to move out of red most of the time)

I'm only sort of joking. *sigh*

anitajoneb17_ESO

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Wait, who ever blames DPS? I get blamed FAR more often as tank, or the healers! (DPS you still have to move out of red most of the time)
I'm only sort of joking. *sigh*

Joke apart : every single "bad" raid leader (and by "bad", I mean not able to identify the strength and weakness of each individual member of the team and discuss it constructively) will blame "low group DPS" as an explanation for failing. Which in most cases will be absolutely true - but offers no solutions except pushing DPS requirements at recruitment level.

MudcrabAttack

This game hardly has enough people testing things and publishing results to show the real meta to the masses.

Imagine if some famous content creator published in a public forum that mages can get thousands of spell damage from wearing moon hunter armor and using the escapist poison, basically buffing dps by far more than literally any other set in the entire game. That would be the recognized meta up until it was nerfed. that’s the way the set works on the pts. Haven’t bothered trying it on live servers since I don’t play mages.

I only play archer stamina characters, with a lowly nightblade doing average dps, and it still works for every DPS check in every vet content I tried so far.

Avoranti

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Wait, who ever blames DPS? I get blamed FAR more often as tank, or the healers! (DPS you still have to move out of red most of the time)
I'm only sort of joking. *sigh*

Joke apart : every single "bad" raid leader (and by "bad", I mean not able to identify the strength and weakness of each individual member of the team and discuss it constructively) will blame "low group DPS" as an explanation for failing. Which in most cases will be absolutely true - but offers no solutions except pushing DPS requirements at recruitment level.

I’ve seen this happen before actually. The DPS get blamed for a lot in trials. While in dungeons it’s usually the tank or healer, because the tank or healer are usually dps playing the wrong role or people in the right role but don’t know how to play it. An example is earlier my gf was playing a dungeon with a tank that had ZERO taunts. CP 600 something. She ended up leaving the dungeon.

Whiskey_JG

Avoranti wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Wait, who ever blames DPS? I get blamed FAR more often as tank, or the healers! (DPS you still have to move out of red most of the time)
I'm only sort of joking. *sigh*

Joke apart : every single "bad" raid leader (and by "bad", I mean not able to identify the strength and weakness of each individual member of the team and discuss it constructively) will blame "low group DPS" as an explanation for failing. Which in most cases will be absolutely true - but offers no solutions except pushing DPS requirements at recruitment level.

I’ve seen this happen before actually. The DPS get blamed for a lot in trials. While in dungeons it’s usually the tank or healer, because the tank or healer are usually dps playing the wrong role or people in the right role but don’t know how to play it. An example is earlier my gf was playing a dungeon with a tank that had ZERO taunts. CP 600 something. She ended up leaving the dungeon.

This would depend on what you are comparing to. The term dps check is relative to the content you are clearing.
If you are clearing a vet dlc dungeon on hm, the dps check is probably around 40 - 50k but there are probably really hard mechanics at play. In certain trials there are situations of dps checks such as vSS HM portals and vRG final boss where your dps needs to be at its best in order to clear it.

Also although the trial dummy is universally used for dps analysis, in actual content you rarely get close to it unless you are in a really optimised group.

Rkindaleft

The two highest DPS checks in the game to my knowledge (assuming you're just going for a clear, not something like a trifecta) are vSShm portals, and Xalvakka HM.

The mini in the portal has about 11m health, which means that divided by the 3 DPS and 90 seconds, each DD needs to be pulling about 41k dps in the portal while avoiding mechanics, unpinning, self healing, etc.

Xalvakka's DPS check in HM execute is very high, for a rough guess it's about ~50k dps.

Avoranti

Nchuleftingth wrote: »

The two highest DPS checks in the game to my knowledge (assuming you're just going for a clear, not something like a trifecta) are vSShm portals, and Xalvakka HM.

The mini in the portal has about 11m health, which means that divided by the 3 DPS and 90 seconds, each DD needs to be pulling about 41k dps in the portal while avoiding mechanics, unpinning, self healing, etc.

Xalvakka's DPS check in HM execute is very high, for a rough guess it's about ~50k dps.

So, if the mini in the portal requires 41k dps while avoiding mechanics and such. But the trial lead is requiring 80k+, is it then stand to reason that we ARE talking about brute force vs mechanics. And you suggested Xal in HM execute is roughly around 50dps?

This is the type of answer I was looking for.
So, if this is true, then the high dps reqs that often get asked for are really to avoid mechanics and to use brute force to get the complete. Which is what I suspected was happening anyway. Sure, I understand about achievements, leaderboards and such. And I get that a player should want to play at the best they can efficiently and effectively to benefit the team.

————————————————————

Isn’t it possible that these high dps instances in trials specifically are likely a large part of why they bug out so often? And likely a reason why stats like crit keep getting nerfed? Maybe the game has issues trying to calculate such high numbers and the bypass of mechanics? ZoS has often suggested that players are still too powerful and thats their justification for the nerfs. But isn’t this a smaller part of the player base, mostly end-game? If players played as intended and not chose to use brute force is it possible we would have never seen as many nerfs?

If this continues there will be a point where some of the highest parses will no longer be obtainable or players like me, who can only achieve 85k dps wont be able to maintain those numbers and end up being left out. Seems like the parse requirements are coming from a small player base (pc) and everyone else just copies it and thats how it becomes the meta. Much like other metas. But console has a disadvantage that I think our prog leads forget. We, for whatever reason, have performance working against us. Especially with the templar class and all trials. Also, this meta eliminates creativity with gear, skills and removes a large amount of players from even having the opportunity to play end-game.

We are seeing gear changes by the devs thats intended to open up the possibilities but its also going to create toxicity because trial groups are still going to demand specifics without ever giving the players build a chance. Often, I feel because of gear meta’s that progression groups have become closed minded.

CP 2.0 was designed to give players options and force us to make harder choices, buts its the same meta as CP 1.0. Mag players all use the same slottables. Stam players all use the same. Etc. The only slight difference I see is from pvp builds.


Sorry, I had a lot if thoughts to express.

azjuwelz

You have to realize those dps check numbers are with mechanics, and of course there's no standardized test environment to calculate ahead of time what actual dps with such mechanics will be. It's not unreasonable to assume their dps could be as much as 50% lower with the mechanics of all the ground aoes, adds, etc.

(though I guess Combat metrics could tell you after the fact; on console so I wouldn't know).

But that's certainly one reason the requirements are high going in.

Sanguinor2

Avoranti wrote: »

So, if the mini in the portal requires 41k dps while avoiding mechanics and such. But the trial lead is requiring 80k+, is it then stand to reason that we ARE talking about brute force vs mechanics. And you suggested Xal in HM execute is roughly around 50dps?

This is the type of answer I was looking for.
So, if this is true, then the high dps reqs that often get asked for are really to avoid mechanics and to use brute force to get the complete. Which is what I suspected was happening anyway. Sure, I understand about achievements, leaderboards and such. And I get that a player should want to play at the best they can efficiently and effectively to benefit the team.

————————————————————

Isn’t it possible that these high dps instances in trials specifically are likely a large part of why they bug out so often? And likely a reason why stats like crit keep getting nerfed? Maybe the game has issues trying to calculate such high numbers and the bypass of mechanics? ZoS has often suggested that players are still too powerful and thats their justification for the nerfs. But isn’t this a smaller part of the player base, mostly end-game? If players played as intended and not chose to use brute force is it possible we would have never seen as many nerfs?

If this continues there will be a point where some of the highest parses will no longer be obtainable or players like me, who can only achieve 85k dps wont be able to maintain those numbers and end up being left out. Seems like the parse requirements are coming from a small player base (pc) and everyone else just copies it and thats how it becomes the meta. Much like other metas. But console has a disadvantage that I think our prog leads forget. We, for whatever reason, have performance working against us. Especially with the templar class and all trials. Also, this meta eliminates creativity with gear, skills and removes a large amount of players from even having the opportunity to play end-game.

We are seeing gear changes by the devs thats intended to open up the possibilities but its also going to create toxicity because trial groups are still going to demand specifics without ever giving the players build a chance. Often, I feel because of gear meta’s that progression groups have become closed minded.

CP 2.0 was designed to give players options and force us to make harder choices, buts its the same meta as CP 1.0. Mag players all use the same slottables. Stam players all use the same. Etc. The only slight difference I see is from pvp builds.


Sorry, I had a lot if thoughts to express.

What you have to understand in the specific example of vSS hm portals is that the 42k dps each dd must have are only with buffs and debuffs those three themselves bring (excluding the resource restoring bubbles that give some weapon/spell damage) all while avoiding mechanics, unpining players, interrupting the mini etc. The 80k+ on the other hand are with full raid buffs which, in an optimized group, make a massive difference.

That being said high dps just makes everything easier so naturally many groups would ask for high dps. When I cleared vmol for the first time doing a lunar phase was to be expected and we actually came close to a second. Like a year back I did vmol achievements with people that were just used to nuking rakkhat at 3rd or 5th platform and no one had any idea what a lunar phase was. You can probably find people that will try stuff with lower dps if you try but in the end most people are in it for the clear and just burning past mechanics is the path of least resistance.

This also leads to gear requirements etc. since there will always be a combination that will yield the most optimal outcome and that is what many people are after. The intent for CP 2.0 might have been to make players choose but it eventually boiling down to a few meta choices depending on your role was inevitable as long as there is diversity in the CP system. It also does not matter what gear changes Zos introduces, as long as there are differences in gear sets there will be meta gear, thats just how it works.

In the end if people want to play endgame but not want to conform to a meta of any sort they either have to find a group that already plays like that or make such a group themselves and find like minded individuals.

Rkindaleft

Avoranti wrote: »

Nchuleftingth wrote: »

The two highest DPS checks in the game to my knowledge (assuming you're just going for a clear, not something like a trifecta) are vSShm portals, and Xalvakka HM.

The mini in the portal has about 11m health, which means that divided by the 3 DPS and 90 seconds, each DD needs to be pulling about 41k dps in the portal while avoiding mechanics, unpinning, self healing, etc.

Xalvakka's DPS check in HM execute is very high, for a rough guess it's about ~50k dps.

So, if the mini in the portal requires 41k dps while avoiding mechanics and such. But the trial lead is requiring 80k+, is it then stand to reason that we ARE talking about brute force vs mechanics. And you suggested Xal in HM execute is roughly around 50dps?

This is the type of answer I was looking for.
So, if this is true, then the high dps reqs that often get asked for are really to avoid mechanics and to use brute force to get the complete. Which is what I suspected was happening anyway. Sure, I understand about achievements, leaderboards and such. And I get that a player should want to play at the best they can efficiently and effectively to benefit the team.

————————————————————

Isn’t it possible that these high dps instances in trials specifically are likely a large part of why they bug out so often? And likely a reason why stats like crit keep getting nerfed? Maybe the game has issues trying to calculate such high numbers and the bypass of mechanics? ZoS has often suggested that players are still too powerful and thats their justification for the nerfs. But isn’t this a smaller part of the player base, mostly end-game? If players played as intended and not chose to use brute force is it possible we would have never seen as many nerfs?

If this continues there will be a point where some of the highest parses will no longer be obtainable or players like me, who can only achieve 85k dps wont be able to maintain those numbers and end up being left out. Seems like the parse requirements are coming from a small player base (pc) and everyone else just copies it and thats how it becomes the meta. Much like other metas. But console has a disadvantage that I think our prog leads forget. We, for whatever reason, have performance working against us. Especially with the templar class and all trials. Also, this meta eliminates creativity with gear, skills and removes a large amount of players from even having the opportunity to play end-game.

We are seeing gear changes by the devs thats intended to open up the possibilities but its also going to create toxicity because trial groups are still going to demand specifics without ever giving the players build a chance. Often, I feel because of gear meta’s that progression groups have become closed minded.

CP 2.0 was designed to give players options and force us to make harder choices, buts its the same meta as CP 1.0. Mag players all use the same slottables. Stam players all use the same. Etc. The only slight difference I see is from pvp builds.


Sorry, I had a lot if thoughts to express.

I'm not sure I agree with what most progression style guilds set for their DPS requirements, my top parse this patch was 101k with my main Mag DK on console so I suppose it doesn't really matter since I can meet reqs for even the top score pushing guilds. However, if we did use near the exact DPS required for the DPS check (lets say a couple thousand DPS higher) those DPS checks would never be met in the actual trial. It mathematically might be possible to beat Xalvakka HM with a group of 50k DPS, but that would assume nobody dies or anyone makes a single mistake, which the chance of that happening is microscopic. So, there is a pretty good reason why people set their requirements at 80k+.

I find that people who refuse to dummy parse also can't do mechanics well. Or one, isn't that good without the other. The majority of people that I see that can only do 25k DPS (that's still above average compared to the average ESO player) for whatever reason also don't have the mechanical skill to execute mechanics flawlessly. There is a near direct correlation between executing a rotation well and actual player performance. I got a bit off topic here.

zaria

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Wait, who ever blames DPS? I get blamed FAR more often as tank, or the healers! (DPS you still have to move out of red most of the time)
I'm only sort of joking. *sigh*

Joke apart : every single "bad" raid leader (and by "bad", I mean not able to identify the strength and weakness of each individual member of the team and discuss it constructively) will blame "low group DPS" as an explanation for failing. Which in most cases will be absolutely true - but offers no solutions except pushing DPS requirements at recruitment level.

In popular and active guilds you tend to have 2-3 ties of raid runs, many times the highest tire is kind of gatekeepts the group organizers don't want to pool to be larger than they need to reliable fill the group then they do runs so they simply raise the dps requirements to get an easier run.
Main benefit is that you can skip mechanic or face less of it who reduce chance to wipe. This is true even in stuff like second last boss of CoH2 in normal with an group who has low dps and is clueless

Ippokrates

Avoranti wrote: »

I wasn’t going to name drop any content creators specifically. But since it was mentioned. Most of Xy’s builds, although not meta, absolutely can be used in the hardest endgame content. And often, he demonstrates such. That is very important. Other content creators I’ve seen usually just show their builds and you never see them in actual content.

As for meta, I’ve never been a meta player. I feel too many gear options get overlooked because of this and thus, I prefer theory crafting and such. Which is partially why I think devs keep changing gear stuff. Trying to break the meta. But there will always be a meta in ESO. However, in the prog team I’m a part of, I did have to compromise for the group or otherwise I would have been excluded. Which is unfortunate. One of my characters is an Argonion Necro healer, when I created it, I was told “why did you make that? No trial group would let you play. Should have made a Templar or warden”. And now, Necro healers are one of the best and looked for in end-game.

When talking about “scripts” I’m not referring to 3rd party nonsense. I’m talking about the actual formula written in the game code and when referring to dps check of 30k I think we all know that any player who understand gear, class and skills would naturally have a higher dps without even trying.

There was an “all about mechanics” video of vhof about a year ago where it was commented that a group completed it with DD’s who had just 27k dps and that high dps wasn’t necessary but helps the fight go faster.

In the conversation I had with another player they were referring to dps check formulas that the game uses in the source code to determine mechanics and difficulty and I was told that this formula is the same for every group content and is based around the 3-6mil vs 21mil. The only difference is the mechanics and timed mechanics for each piece of content. They also referenced the 3-6mil dummies and why the 21 mil was added and it’s intended use vs what it’s being used for today. While the meta seems to be the 21 mil trial dummy, it seems that parsing as a whole gives false results. Because the dummies do not move or attack, there aren’t any mechanics where the player has to move or anything that happens in actual combat. Some old school players might have more insight to those references.

There was another comment regarding VAS and the recent update. Suggesting that groups have been relying on brute force rather than mechanics and such. This made me wonder how many end-game completes have been relying on brute force to bypass mechanics rather than just playing them out? It also had me curious as to if those same groups could get those same completes playing mechanics rather than using brute force? Seeing how weapon dmg and crit seem to continue to take a hit each patch, is it possible the devs are trying to eliminate the brute force tactic and force players into learning and playing mechanics more?

I like his tutorials, very much. They are quite informative. And he has really good ideas, that can be used to break with this meta boredom. Even now, thanks to his vlogs i am running sets like Overwhelming Surge or Azure. And they work great

ALSO, when it comes to dps contest - AFAIK Xynode plays only on console.

I would love to see all those mastah of dummy disastah without their precious addons. No, not just for a single parse but for the whole process of learning.

AinSoph

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

This game hardly has enough people testing things and publishing results to show the real meta to the masses.

Imagine if some famous content creator published in a public forum that mages can get thousands of spell damage from wearing moon hunter armor and using the escapist poison, basically buffing dps by far more than literally any other set in the entire game. That would be the recognized meta up until it was nerfed. that’s the way the set works on the pts. Haven’t bothered trying it on live servers since I don’t play mages.

I only play archer stamina characters, with a lowly nightblade doing average dps, and it still works for every DPS check in every vet content I tried so far.

This set got affected by Hybridization so stam can also use this and potentially even more effectively with DW.

LashanW

Avoranti wrote: »

Nchuleftingth wrote: »

The two highest DPS checks in the game to my knowledge (assuming you're just going for a clear, not something like a trifecta) are vSShm portals, and Xalvakka HM.

The mini in the portal has about 11m health, which means that divided by the 3 DPS and 90 seconds, each DD needs to be pulling about 41k dps in the portal while avoiding mechanics, unpinning, self healing, etc.

Xalvakka's DPS check in HM execute is very high, for a rough guess it's about ~50k dps.

So, if the mini in the portal requires 41k dps while avoiding mechanics and such. But the trial lead is requiring 80k+, is it then stand to reason that we ARE talking about brute force vs mechanics. And you suggested Xal in HM execute is roughly around 50dps?

You can't compare raw numbers like that. (that 41k and 80k+ are in completely different environments). People who can tackle vSS hm portals can usually do 80k+ on trial dummy without much issues.

80k = This is on raid dummy where pretty much all important buffs and debuffs are present with a 100% uptime.
41k = vSS last boss hm portals are semi solo environments. No tanks and healers present. A lot of buffs and debuffs will not be there (only 3 players allowed). Mechanics are there so it's not a sit and parse situation either.

DPS for vSS last boss hm portals are best compared with 6m dummy. (but you'd need to do more than 41k here to account for missing mechanics)

Ishtarknows

Avoranti wrote: »

So, if the mini in the portal requires 41k dps while avoiding mechanics and such. But the trial lead is requiring 80k+, is it then stand to reason that we ARE talking about brute force vs mechanics. And you suggested Xal in HM execute is roughly around 50dps?

This is the type of answer I was looking for.
So, if this is true, then the high dps reqs that often get asked for are really to avoid mechanics and to use brute force to get the complete. Which is what I suspected was happening anyway. Sure, I understand about achievements, leaderboards and such. And I get that a player should want to play at the best they can efficiently and effectively to benefit the team.

The vss hm portal dps requirement is self buffed. There's no healer, tank or support dd wearing dps boosting sets/ giving combat prayer down there so the 41k dps requirement while doing mechs (so >41K in reality) needs to be achievable on a 3/6 mill dummy self buffed not on a trial dummy. This equates to somewhere around 75k.

The problem I see is people getting mixed up with the dps achievable on the 6 mill and 21mill trial dummies. To say that vmol can be cleared with 25k dps because that was the best when it came out is true. But that's about 50k on a trial dummy and at that time you saw at least one lunar phase. That's why 50k on the
21mill is a bare minimum for dlc trials and with 8 dds only managing 50k it'll be a prolonged fight putting strain on the whole team especially supports.

Grandchamp1989

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

So, if the mini in the portal requires 41k dps while avoiding mechanics and such. But the trial lead is requiring 80k+, is it then stand to reason that we ARE talking about brute force vs mechanics. And you suggested Xal in HM execute is roughly around 50dps?

This is the type of answer I was looking for.
So, if this is true, then the high dps reqs that often get asked for are really to avoid mechanics and to use brute force to get the complete. Which is what I suspected was happening anyway. Sure, I understand about achievements, leaderboards and such. And I get that a player should want to play at the best they can efficiently and effectively to benefit the team.

The vss hm portal dps requirement is self buffed. There's no healer, tank or support dd wearing dps boosting sets/ giving combat prayer down there so the 41k dps requirement while doing mechs (so >41K in reality) needs to be achievable on a 3/6 mill dummy self buffed not on a trial dummy. This equates to somewhere around 75k.

The problem I see is people getting mixed up with the dps achievable on the 6 mill and 21mill trial dummies. To say that vmol can be cleared with 25k dps because that was the best when it came out is true. But that's about 50k on a trial dummy and at that time you saw at least one lunar phase. That's why 50k on the
21mill is a bare minimum for dlc trials and with 8 dds only managing 50k it'll be a prolonged fight putting strain on the whole team especially supports.

That is actually a really good comparison. 41k self buffed would be much closer indeed to the 3 to 6 mill dummy than the trial dummy.

Deter1UK

Ippokrates wrote: »

ALSO, when it comes to dps contest - AFAIK Xynode plays only on console.

He has characters on both servers on every platform

Live stream on a Monday is (usually?) PC, if you're in the guild you can join in sometimes.

Hallothiel

I find that people who refuse to dummy parse also can't do mechanics well.

There is a near direct correlation between executing a rotation well and actual player performance.

Have to disagree with these statements. I don’t do dummy parses as they are so bloody dull and I have limited game time. I hate them. Hate them.

But I have no problem in working out & understanding mechs - in fact, its one of the fun things to do in new dungeons & trials, to go in blind & try and work out what the hell is going on!

I have also seen times when someone who has a high dummy dps is actually a bit useless as they just assume that because they are so ‘op’ and meta that they can just burn through any mechanics - when they can’t. And they die. And therefore their high dps is useless. I do think that some medium dps players with the willingness to learn mechs & work together can complete content - yes, maybe not leaderboard, but completed!

AinSoph

Hallothiel wrote: »

I find that people who refuse to dummy parse also can't do mechanics well.

There is a near direct correlation between executing a rotation well and actual player performance.

Have to disagree with these statements. I don’t do dummy parses as they are so bloody dull and I have limited game time. I hate them. Hate them.

But I have no problem in working out & understanding mechs - in fact, its one of the fun things to do in new dungeons & trials, to go in blind & try and work out what the hell is going on!

I have also seen times when someone who has a high dummy dps is actually a bit useless as they just assume that because they are so ‘op’ and meta that they can just burn through any mechanics - when they can’t. And they die. And therefore their high dps is useless. I do think that some medium dps players with the willingness to learn mechs & work together can complete content - yes, maybe not leaderboard, but completed!

I will admit this is correct a lot of the time but the reverse is also true. I've never seen anyone with extremely bad dps avoid mechanics with near-perfection.

Rudrani

mistaken post

Rudrani

Franchise408 wrote: »

Rudrani wrote: »

Could you get past zaj'hassa with 8 dps doing 30k each????

Its hard to believe. I personally found that you need at least an average of 60k players to get past that fight (which is a dps check).

Also the execute phase on final boss of vHoF is a purse DPS check. I dont think you can clear it with under 70k average. For sure hardmode execute you better have at least 85k average, imo.

Actually there are a LOT of dps gates built into the game. Even the final execute in Atherian Archives is an (outdated) dps check.

I feel they tried to AVOID the "dps check" approach to the newest trial (Rockgrove) at least for the first two of the three bosses. And I find those two fights to be very interesting.

I think the best of all the designs may be the twins in vMoL. This is an example of a DPS check WITH a whole lot of interesting gameplay.

You would be incorrect.

30k - 40k can clear any vet content in this game. 60k+ is not necessary. It is only necessary if you want to bypass mechanics / shoot for trifectas / push leaderboards.

Let's be sure we are comparing apples and apples, oranges and oranges.

Are you saying that 8 dps players whose highest score on the 21mil Iron Atro is 30k will get past zaj'hassa?

SirAndy

Avoranti wrote: »

This is a topic I’ve been wondering for a while. After hearing a content creator suggest that the highest dps check in the game was around 27k-30k… it made me wonder if there was any truth in this. Also made me question why the high parse demands for end-game?

25k-30k solo(!) dps will get you through any and all content in this game.

Anything above that is either gravy or group buffed. Most people don't seem to know (or care about) the difference.
[Snip]

[Edited for inappropriate content]

Brenticus12

Avoranti wrote: »

I wasn’t going to name drop any content creators specifically. But since it was mentioned. Most of Xy’s builds, although not meta, absolutely can be used in the hardest endgame content. And often, he demonstrates such. That is very important. Other content creators I’ve seen usually just show their builds and you never see them in actual content.

As for meta, I’ve never been a meta player. I feel too many gear options get overlooked because of this and thus, I prefer theory crafting and such. Which is partially why I think devs keep changing gear stuff. Trying to break the meta. But there will always be a meta in ESO. However, in the prog team I’m a part of, I did have to compromise for the group or otherwise I would have been excluded. Which is unfortunate. One of my characters is an Argonion Necro healer, when I created it, I was told “why did you make that? No trial group would let you play. Should have made a Templar or warden”. And now, Necro healers are one of the best and looked for in end-game.

When talking about “scripts” I’m not referring to 3rd party nonsense. I’m talking about the actual formula written in the game code and when referring to dps check of 30k I think we all know that any player who understand gear, class and skills would naturally have a higher dps without even trying.

There was an “all about mechanics” video of vhof about a year ago where it was commented that a group completed it with DD’s who had just 27k dps and that high dps wasn’t necessary but helps the fight go faster.

In the conversation I had with another player they were referring to dps check formulas that the game uses in the source code to determine mechanics and difficulty and I was told that this formula is the same for every group content and is based around the 3-6mil vs 21mil. The only difference is the mechanics and timed mechanics for each piece of content. They also referenced the 3-6mil dummies and why the 21 mil was added and it’s intended use vs what it’s being used for today. While the meta seems to be the 21 mil trial dummy, it seems that parsing as a whole gives false results. Because the dummies do not move or attack, there aren’t any mechanics where the player has to move or anything that happens in actual combat. Some old school players might have more insight to those references.

There was another comment regarding VAS and the recent update. Suggesting that groups have been relying on brute force rather than mechanics and such. This made me wonder how many end-game completes have been relying on brute force to bypass mechanics rather than just playing them out? It also had me curious as to if those same groups could get those same completes playing mechanics rather than using brute force? Seeing how weapon dmg and crit seem to continue to take a hit each patch, is it possible the devs are trying to eliminate the brute force tactic and force players into learning and playing mechanics more?

I think you're speaking from a position with limited knowledge and should do more research before you make these kinds of comments first. Especially in regards to Xynode, how builds work, how content optimisation works, how dissemintation of endgame build information works, how meta works, how DPS checks work, how dummy testing works and what it means to "skip" vAS mechanics.

FYI mini skipping in vAS, which I'm assuming is what you meant by "skipping through brute force" requires you to be very, very finely tuned with the mechanics of the trial. The only thing you're skipping with a mini skip is the enrage mechanic from the minis. If the minis enrage and you're not close to killing either the boss or the mini (Which goes inactive for a couple of seconds), then it's a wipe regardless. There are no "additional" mechanics in play because a mini enrage, it just means their attacks will one shot regardless of whether you block them.

I can guarantee you that the groups in vASHM that do mini skips regularly are 100x better players and more knowledgeable about the intricacies of every vASHM mechanic than the players who can't mini skip.