Guidance on melee Stamblade for high/higher MMR

taugrim

gariondavey wrote: »

Constine is a god-tier stamblade in high mmr. Easily one of the best in the game. (Pc na)

You're the 2nd person to say this.

@bambloo in my build (Adastra) said the same thing.

taugrim

Decimus wrote: »

A common mistake a lot of NBs also make is running 2H front, as you're doubling down on the weakness of stamblade (no undodgeable damage) - this makes it possible for people to completely hardcounter you with a few dodge rolls.

Running DW & using spin2win to execute people who react with that dodge roll makes stamblade a lot better and more consistent.

Just wanted to report back on my results.

Keeping the same sets but switching from 2H/Bow to DW/2H has made a huge difference. Whirling Blades is way more consistent at landing than Execute because it's undodgeable, has 1m of extra range (i.e. 20% more), and fires in a circle so you can potentially kill multiple targets with it.

I assume Reverse Slice is also undodgeable, but AFAIK the damage on the secondary targets is based on the damage you deal to the first target it hits, and that behavior may be undesirable, e.g. you meant to hit the low-HP target but hit a high-HP target instead, resulting in crappy damage on other targets.

As I no longer have the bow dodge roll with DW/2H, I'm using Ring of the Wild Hunt with Swift trait for mobility, and that gets me to +22% movement speed.

You mentioned Sithis, and I can definitely see its merits for Stamblade but I am completely uninterested in doing the Dark Brotherhood quest line.

EDIT: I will grind Dark Brotherhood on a character I don't care about. Probably my Orc Stamsorc. Just so I can get Sithis, because I think it's the single best-fit Mythic for a Stamblade. The HP, passive mitigation, and health recovery (even with the 50% Battle Spirit reduction) all provide meaningful value.

Gambino108

Decimus 100% right. He a PC EU player with consistent top quality PVP, and one of best nightblades on server. So if questioning skill level its a moot point.

First it comes to preference and playstyle and what you're used to and most comfortable with. I'm bow back bar and 2hand front bar in Cyro, and I like the utility of the backbar speed. And after so many years of playing the key combinations are almost subconscious for me, and I consider myself lacking the energy to change at the moment - as lazy as that sounds. It's clear and obvious that spin2win is consistently better damage than Executioner, and the Duel Wield passives are superior.

Because I do so well with my style of my play, i'm content with it. Now as much as you can argue stats and damage numbers - Decimus has the the end-point - Undodgeable damage is King. Executioner is ineffective most of the time, especially 1vsX. We've all been there frustratingly chasing the execute hit on a 15% health enemy who's rolling away, and when outnumbered it be your downfall.

And Rally can easily be placed back bar if don't use brutality potions. So the duel wield passives superior, the skills superior, and you miss out on nothing but major expedition. Try using Elude instead of Shuffle and you have major expedition up passively most of time anyway.

taugrim

Gambino108 wrote: »

I'm bow back bar and 2hand front bar in Cyro, and I like the utility of the backbar speed. And after so many years of playing the key combinations are almost subconscious for me, and I consider myself lacking the energy to change at the moment - as lazy as that sounds.

It's a pain to retrain muscle memory.

I had to swap Rally and Relentless Strikes. Thankfully both are still on the '4' key, but it's the bar that is the difference. And I have to remember that dodge rolling on the 2H backbar does not provide Major Expedition.

Gambino108 wrote: »

It's clear and obvious that spin2win is consistently better damage than Executioner, and the Duel Wield passives are superior.

Disagree.

2H has lower-cost execute, stamina recovery on kill passive, and AOE passives.

I would rather have the 2H passives when DW'ing.

Gambino108 wrote: »

Decimus has the the end-point - Undodgeable damage is King. Executioner is ineffective most of the time, especially 1vsX. We've all been there frustratingly chasing the execute hit on a 15% health enemy who's rolling away, and when outnumbered it be your downfall.

Agreed.

Executioner hits like a truck but it can be dodged, it's easy to hit the wrong target in traffic, and the 5m range feels so short.

Each meter really is noticeable. E.g. Dizzying with 7m feels generous, 6m with Whirling Blades makes it more usable, and the DK 7m melee passive is awesome.

Gambino108 wrote: »

Try using Elude instead of Shuffle and you have major expedition up passively most of time anyway.

Yes, this is already what I do.

Many seem to favor Shuffle, but I prefer Elude for 2 reasons:
1. the on-AOE damage proc movement buff is amazing
2. the duration is 40s with 7 medium armor pieces

I originally picked up Elude on my Stamden as a counter to Templar shushushu spam, and I've found it still useful on Stamblade.

Gambino108

taugrim wrote: »

Disagree.

2H has lower-cost execute, stamina recovery on kill passive, and AOE passives.

I would rather have the 2H passives when DW'ing.

Dual Wield has 6% off hand more weapon damage, 15% more damage on stunned/immobilised enemies and 20% more execute damage under 25% health.

The damage is superior before you even take into account- You can run on main a Nirnhoned Sword and get free 15% damage buff, and then offhand Sharpened Maul for just slightly less penetration than 2hander.

So the deciding factor between them is lose all those damage buffs PLUS 15% nirnhoned trait from Dual Wield - or lose out on Recovery and Cost Reduction.

And then take into account those massive damage buffs also come with undodgeable AOE skills - and the slighty 2hand resource sustain comes from single target unreliable skills.

baselesschart

Gambino108 wrote: »

Dual Wield has 6% off hand more weapon damage, 15% more damage on stunned/immobilised enemies and 20% more execute damage under 25% health.

The damage is superior before you even take into account- You can run on main a Nirnhoned Sword and get free 15% damage buff, and then offhand Sharpened Maul for just slightly less penetration than 2hander.

So the deciding factor between them is lose all those damage buffs PLUS 15% nirnhoned trait from Dual Wield - or lose out on Recovery and Cost Reduction.

And then take into account those massive damage buffs also come with undodgeable AOE skills - and the slighty 2hand resource sustain comes from single target unreliable skills.

Good luck getting and keep your opponents at 25% health and below in this day and age, most people just block and heal once they hit that threshold. In actual practicality, at least for me, that little bit of extra damage I'd get from DW isn't going to make the difference of me killing an opponent vs not killing them. I'm already at a pretty high diminishing return value as far as weapon damage, so I'm not swayed into needing to switch to DW. So that recovery and cost reduction sounds really good seeing as I'm perfectly content with my damage.

I also wouldn't switch to run spin to win, it is undodgeable yes, but the scaling on it is way, way worse than that of executioner and I don't have a problem landing executioner. Its debatable that could be a l2p issue if that's the reason you have to run spin to win.

taugrim

Made an edit:

taugrim wrote: »

You mentioned Sithis, and I can definitely see its merits for Stamblade but I am completely uninterested in doing the Dark Brotherhood quest line.

EDIT: I will grind Dark Brotherhood on a character I don't care about. Probably my Orc Stamsorc. Just so I can get Sithis, because I think it's the single best-fit Mythic for a Stamblade. The HP, passive mitigation, and health recovery (even with the 50% Battle Spirit reduction) all provide meaningful value.

I know some folks believe Sithis is overrated, but I think the extra headroom for HP and mitigation to keep me above 50% and especially 25% HP will help me to stay in longer to try to bring a target down and to get away.

It will mean having to give up Ring of Wild Hunt with Swift (for 22% total speed boost) by getting 3 x Swift. So I'd lose 2 Infused, which means 101 Stamina recovery and 104 Weapon damage, before buffs.

After having tested, to me the magic number for movement speed seems to be around 21-22%.

taugrim

Gambino108 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Disagree.

2H has lower-cost execute, stamina recovery on kill passive, and AOE passives.

I would rather have the 2H passives when DW'ing.

15% more damage on stunned/immobilised enemies and 20% more execute damage under 25% health.

That only works with DW skills you slot. The only DW ability I slot is Whirling Blades.

Granted, that is a darn good one to have it apply to.

Gambino108 wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

Disagree.

2H has lower-cost execute, stamina recovery on kill passive, and AOE passives.

I would rather have the 2H passives when DW'ing.

Dual Wield has 6% off hand more weapon damage.

The damage is superior before you even take into account- You can run on main a Nirnhoned Sword and get free 15% damage buff, and then offhand Sharpened Maul for just slightly less penetration than 2hander.

So the deciding factor between them is lose all those damage buffs PLUS 15% nirnhoned trait from Dual Wield - or lose out on Recovery and Cost Reduction.

Question about this.

Do you run Nirnhoned Sword on the off-hand weapon, because the 6% is based on the offhand? I want to make sure I'm thinking about this right.

The only thing is I love having pen, so swapping a Sharpened Mace for a Nirnhoned Sword is losing ~3k pen, but I get that the damage boost may be worth it.

divnyi

taugrim wrote: »

Do you run Nirnhoned Sword on the off-hand weapon, because the 6% is based on the offhand? I want to make sure I'm thinking about this right.

Offhand weapon adds like 20% damage approx, main damage comes from mainhand.

Gambino108

baselesschart wrote: »

I also wouldn't switch to run spin to win, it is undodgeable yes, but the scaling on it is way, way worse than that of executioner and I don't have a problem landing executioner. Its debatable that could be a l2p issue if that's the reason you have to run spin to win.

If you read before I stated I DON'T run Dual Wield. I'm 2H and Bow backbar player.

I'm merely stating the obvious merits of having Dual Wield and the benefits it brings. In the context of this debate it's primarily for 1vsX playstyle as I mentioned before.

If you are a solo player used to fighting 5 or 6 players at once - things like Soul Tether Ulti and Spin2Win are immensely more useful than Incap and Executioner. It just the way the game is heading - with the instability of server performance, that Undodgeable AOE burst is more reliable against good players when outnumbered.

If you play a solo gank style or in a small group with others the issue will appear less obvious.

Infact the gameplay style is so drastically different between nightblades that it's easy not to understand certain perspectives.

gariondavey

taugrim wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Constine is a god-tier stamblade in high mmr. Easily one of the best in the game. (Pc na)

You're the 2nd person to say this.

@bambloo in my build (Adastra) said the same thing.

Bambloo is in my guild too. Lol.

geonsocal

@taugrim - your write way too well to be a battlegrounds enthusiast...maybe get yourself comfortable in grey host...it may suit you better...or not

taugrim

geonsocal wrote: »

@taugrim - your write way too well to be a battlegrounds enthusiast...maybe get yourself comfortable in grey host...it may suit you better...or not

What's wrong with BGs?

BGs are the best context to test new builds and to work on skill IMO.

geonsocal

ahhhhhh, pvp wise, imperial city is the best way to test new builds, and public dungeons the best spot to practice rotations

nothings wrong with battlegrounds...it's great for leveling pvp toons with the random daily quest...good xp...

it's fast paced usually, fun a lot of the time - decent AP...

I don't know, grey host is just more of a looser objective, non-timed experience...I mean, you do spend a lot of time riding between battles, you can easily spend a half hour or more involved in a siege and walk away (revive away actually) with little to no AP...

there is time though, to get to know the folks you're fighting against and with a lot better...

a chance to pick your own pvp "objective"...

I'm almost embarrassed to say - it provides a bit of a better role playing type experience for pvp...

I mean, how invested really are you in the pit demons, storm knights, or whatever they're called...

winning, and dying, with the relative same groups of folks over time is fun, really wanting to crush the other two alliances (cause they've crushed you a bunch too) is a little "deeper" and more personal experience maybe...

taugrim

geonsocal wrote: »

ahhhhhh, pvp wise, imperial city is the best way to test new builds, and public dungeons the best spot to practice rotations

nothings wrong with battlegrounds...it's great for leveling pvp toons with the random daily quest...good xp...

I mean, how invested really are you in the pit demons, storm knights, or whatever they're called...

winning, and dying, with the relative same groups of folks over time is fun, really wanting to crush the other two alliances (cause they've crushed you a bunch too) is a little "deeper" and more personal experience maybe...

No one does BGs for the team names.

BGs is the most consistent 4v4v4 context in the game. I think it's the best by far for skills development.

People who wreck face in BGs typically excel in Cyro, where they face lesser-skilled opponents.

Decimus wrote: »

Burst+Mobility+Tankiness.

Tankiness
You get this from Gaze of Sithis. Stamblade is not a class that relies a lot on blocking, and a lot of the damage you would be blocking is unblockable anyway (DoTs).

In fact, the only times I'd die before I ran Gaze of Sithis on stamblade would be when I didn't block something like a 3rd party Dawnbreaker. Gaze of Sithis lets you survive those instances, and many others.

The 1k health regen is also very noticeable on a class with very limited healing.

There's no question about Gaze of Sithis being BiS defensively for a stamblade.

If you don't reach 32k+ health with Gaze of Sithis I'd recommend putting attributes into health until you do. Even with 25k+ mitigations you'll want to have as big of a buffer as possible, as this is also your offensive window should you decide to go for riskier kills.

So I managed to complete Gaze of Sithis last night.

Took 4 tries from Dark Brotherhood Shadowy Supplier passive.
Took 6 tries from running Cradle of Shadows (normal, vet, vet, vet, vet, and normal).

Across about 6 BGs so far, Sithis is indeed feeling like a great choice for Stamblade.

I'm still under 75 hours played at level 50, so I have a lot more to learn.

Sithis is the 10th set I've tried, and I'm happy with how it feels, combined with Spriggan's and Ancient Dragonguard.

I know some folks prefer Stuhn's Favor, but in my testing and reviewing BG footage, the uptime is not as good as you'd think, because you have to set a target off-balance (assuming someone else doesn't do it) with a flanking Surprise Attack, then hit them again with a flanking Surprise Attack. I'd rather have the front-loaded, always-on Spriggan's pen.

Andre_Noir

taugrim wrote: »

People who wreck face in BGs typically excel in Cyro, where they face lesser-skilled opponents.

Infinite aerobic around walls and towers is way far away from wrecking but usually those guys effectively draw away mighty "skilled" bg players that come to Cyro for "excel"

baselesschart

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Infinite aerobic around walls and towers is way far away from wrecking but usually those guys effectively draw away mighty "skilled" bg players that come to Cyro for "excel"

Did you ever think there was a reason a lot of people run around towers and walls? Its for LoS against opponents, something that at this point is necessary for 1vx. Damage is too high for most people to just take it to the face. If all the solo players played in open fields with no LoS they would die every time.