Guidance on melee Stamblade for high/higher MMR

taugrim

Problem Statement
Melee Stamblade can really bring the pain, but at cost of being enormously squishy. Shadowy Disguise is a fantastic tool for entering/exiting engagements, but it's rough in BGs and fights where there is a lot of AOE and / or enemies that support your target.

It's a high-finesse class, and at high/higher MMR while I'm finding it easy to bring down unskilled players it's challenging to consistently kill competent players without meaningful risk of dying. I've played other melee builds and they are not as fragile or unforgiving.

Context
I am an experienced PVP player across 10+ MMORPG titles, but Nightblade is my 1st time playing a "rogue" archetype. Stealth mechanics didn't appeal to me in other games, but in ESO I think it's well implemented because there are no cooldowns for any abilities.

So I'm giving it a run here 😀

Observations / Learnings
I'm still at under 50 hrs played at level cap, so very much in the learning phase.

I have tried a variety of builds, here are my learnings:
1. Pairing a defensive set with an offensive set: e.g. Hunding's Rage + Pariah. Outcome: forgiving due to high resistances + invisibility, but lacks upfront burst to pressure targets meaningfully
2. Pairing 2 offensive sets: e.g. Hunding's Rage + Stygian. Outcome: great burst, but extremely fragile
3. Pairing 2 sets that have offensive up-front stats, but 1 of them helps with survivability: Hunding's Rage + Ancient Dragonguard. Outcome: solid burst, improved survivability, but still struggle to bring down healer solo or a target supported by a group

Been using 2H on the frontbar (primarily for Forward Momentum and Execute), and found Bow on backbar is terrific for the dodge-roll Major Expedition.

Found Ring of the Wild Hunt to be highly desirable for Stamblade, due to the 5m range of all melee attacks that are not gap closers. Plus mobility is king on a squishy melee build. Whereas I haven't found it needed for other melee builds, e.g. Stamden (Dizzying has 7m range, Sub Assault has 20m range), StamDK (all melee attacks extend to 7m), Templar (shushushu has 8m radius).

People tend to poopoo Ancient Dragonguard, but on Stamblade its mechanics do make sense: upfront weapon damage to burst a target, then resistances to help disengage before you get executed / blown up.

Also tried Titanborn Strength early but found its mechanics to be backwards for a Stamblade. For a beefy brawler (e.g. Stamden, StamDK), Titanborn Strength works. Not for a squishy stealth class.

Questions
Any general guidance is appreciated.

I've found the Shadowy Disguise -> Ambush -> Incap Strike / Surprise Attack spam w/ LA weaving -> Execute to work well.

Experienced players tend to know to hold block as soon as I go invisible, or to Break Free and dodge roll the Incap Strike if I hit them with SA first to stun them, because they know IS is coming next.

Jameson18

I've had best results with:

Stuhn's (or spriggans) / Ancient Dragonguard, 1pc Kragh, Wild hunt

or

Stuhn's front (or spriggans), Armor master back, Balorgh (or 1 kragh + 1pc swarm/domi/bal/molag/slime), 1pc trainee, wild hunt

I found bear haunch to be the best food for outnumbered fighting

Make sure you maintain stage 3 on vamp. It helps a lot currently. Its a huge difference between having it and not. Also, the stage 2 passive really helps on bursting from cloak/stealth/vamp invis.

I've got a couple build ideas coming with the new patch but will need the sets after release to test.

Jameson18

I forgot - Heartland / Dragonguard was also very good. Heartland / Stuhn's w/ potentate back bar was pretty awesome also.

taugrim

Jameson18 wrote: »

Stuhn's (or spriggans) / Ancient Dragonguard, 1pc Kragh, Wild hunt

or

Stuhn's front (or spriggans), Armor master back, Balorgh (or 1 kragh + 1pc swarm/domi/bal/molag/slime), 1pc trainee, wild hunt

This is interesting.

I was considering Stuhn's or Spriggan's for the pen, but was dissuaded because people said I'd be over-penning squishy targets.

BTW for 2H which weapon and trait do you typically use?

Rakdos

taugrim wrote: »

Problem Statement
Melee Stamblade can really bring the pain, but at cost of being enormously squishy. Shadowy Disguise is a fantastic tool for entering/exiting engagements, but it's rough in BGs and fights where there is a lot of AOE and / or enemies that support your target.

It's a high-finesse class, and at high/higher MMR while I'm finding it easy to bring down unskilled players it's challenging to consistently kill competent players without meaningful risk of dying. I've played other melee builds and they are not as fragile or unforgiving.

Context
I am an experienced PVP player across 10+ MMORPG titles, but Nightblade is my 1st time playing a "rogue" archetype. Stealth mechanics didn't appeal to me in other games, but in ESO I think it's well implemented because there are no cooldowns for any abilities.

So I'm giving it a run here 😀

Observations / Learnings
I'm still at under 50 hrs played at level cap, so very much in the learning phase.

I have tried a variety of builds, here are my learnings:
1. Pairing a defensive set with an offensive set: e.g. Hunding's Rage + Pariah. Outcome: forgiving due to high resistances + invisibility, but lacks upfront burst to pressure targets meaningfully
2. Pairing 2 offensive sets: e.g. Hunding's Rage + Stygian. Outcome: great burst, but extremely fragile
3. Pairing 2 sets that have offensive up-front stats, but 1 of them helps with survivability: Hunding's Rage + Ancient Dragonguard. Outcome: solid burst, improved survivability, but still struggle to bring down healer solo or a target supported by a group

Been using 2H on the frontbar (primarily for Forward Momentum and Execute), and found Bow on backbar is terrific for the dodge-roll Major Expedition.

Found Ring of the Wild Hunt to be highly desirable for Stamblade, due to the 5m range of all melee attacks that are not gap closers. Plus mobility is king on a squishy melee build. Whereas I haven't found it needed for other melee builds, e.g. Stamden (Dizzying has 7m range, Sub Assault has 20m range), StamDK (all melee attacks extend to 7m), Templar (shushushu has 8m radius).

People tend to poopoo Ancient Dragonguard, but on Stamblade its mechanics do make sense: upfront weapon damage to burst a target, then resistances to help disengage before you get executed / blown up.

Also tried Titanborn Strength early but found its mechanics to be backwards for a Stamblade. For a beefy brawler (e.g. Stamden, StamDK), Titanborn Strength works. Not for a squishy stealth class.

Questions
Any general guidance is appreciated.

I've found the Shadowy Disguise -> Ambush -> Incap Strike / Surprise Attack spam w/ LA weaving -> Execute to work well.

Experienced players tend to know to hold block as soon as I go invisible, or to Break Free and dodge roll the Incap Strike if I hit them with SA first to stun them, because they know IS is coming next.

Wild hunt is a very deceived set to be used in BG. it is fine for solo ganking, but high mmr bg requires team work. When sht happens, Nightblade can always running away, go hiding somewhere, but that also means you will leave all your teammate in dangerous situation. Besides, the super high moving speed and the invisibility from the NB sometimes will make the NB go too far from their team, which is ok-ish for the crazy king/relic capture mode at some big map, but the current deathmatch only mode significantly reduced the necessarity of the ring.

In my opinion, the gaze of sithis is a much better set for stamblade.It provide enough health and armor which is very vital for the survivibility, and also allowed you to put the rest 2 set into offensive. and since I am slower, I can always stay with my teammate. the team position and formation is quite important in the BG.

Andre_Noir

Nightblade in stamina is pretty much one-trick pony so there is nothing to choose. Among all defensive options I would say Charr for deep ganks and Zoal for short skirmishes.Sithis is overrated on NB imo

Larcomar

I've been picking mine up a bit more with the recent patch for a bit of hrothgar cheese. Obv dumping that now but thinking of keeping playing him a bit. If I can threadjack a wee bit, are you guys going full medium on the body or mixing some heavy in there? Was thinking of hundings / ancient dragon guard body, spriggans weps / jewels. Mainly cyro so I like wild hunt.

divnyi

Well this is technically stamblade

https://youtu.be/YpsRXr-Sk-A

But can give some general advices too.

How to not be squishy:

Gaze of Sithis, put points into HP. You'll have your damage from high WD and WD scaling of medium.

7x Well-Fitted. Rollerblade is the best stamblade.

How to do damage:

Use all offensive sets, with high WD and burst damage procs. It's that simple. Today's meta for fighter NB is Deadlands Assassin + Thunder Caller, but second set is nerfed for ganking purposes at PTS. But before PTS, this combo just slays. Enemy can dodge incap on reaction if they are very fast. They can't dodge heavy+incap, because heavy from stealth stun.

How to gank:

Move in stealth, not in Cloak. Take 2 lvl vampy so you can run in stealth. Don't prebuff stam buffs way too often, or you'll quickly run out of stam. Cloak just before someone is passing by, or just once before engaging.

You shouldn't attack targets that use active defences - i.e., blocks and shields. And shouldn't attack 30k+ targets alone too.

ResidentContrarian

If you're on PC NA, good luck being a god in "high MMR".

When facing off in a match with all people in the top 10 besides you, good luck. Players that PvP a lot know exactly how NBs think and what they will do. In fact, I coached my brother on exactly what an NB would do, and when he would attack, even though we both had no idea where he was or when he was watching.

Simply guessing based on his habits and mindset made his cloaking ability useless. Because BGs are a limited area with a limited time and objective, it's easier to predict player behavior and exactly how and what way they will react. Most NBs also behave in a mechanical way, like attacking 2 seconds after cloaking for example.

That means you need a trick, or to be unreadable to win there, otherwise you don't stand a chance esp. on a glass build. No amount of set changes will offset player behavior, at least in a no-CP environment.

If all else fails, just play with a player that routines wins in BGs and never loses like me I actually go there simply to drop people's rank and feast on their rage.

Jameson18

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Nightblade in stamina is pretty much one-trick pony so there is nothing to choose. Among all defensive options I would say Charr for deep ganks and Zoal for short skirmishes.Sithis is overrated on NB imo

For real, Charr is amazing.

taugrim

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

If you're on PC NA, good luck being a god in "high MMR".

When facing off in a match with all people in the top 10 besides you, good luck. Players that PvP a lot know exactly how NBs think and what they will do. In fact, I coached my brother on exactly what an NB would do, and when he would attack, even though we both had no idea where he was or when he was watching.

This is fair.

I'm still learning how to play a stealth melee-and-run class, so I don't want to pre-judge before I've cycled through a lot of different sets. E.g. it took me 3-4 months with my Stamden to find sets that synergized well after the proc sets were nerfed (I had run Syvarra's and Merciless Charge previously).

Stamblade is one of those classes that is able to wreck lesser-skilled players, but against higher MMR players it can be countered. I will say that playing Stamblade has made me better on Stamden at dealing with them.

Decimus

Burst+Mobility+Tankiness.

Burst
Trying to build for sustained pressure (max stats) on a class with no undodgeable damage is a bad idea.

Try going for burst procs instead, as stamblade relies on being able to kill fast (though this doesn't mean you can't pressure).

Thunder Caller+Deadlands+Vate 2H is BiS currently when it comes to burst.
Next patch replace Thunder Caller with Caluurion & Deadlands with Stygian and it should still work.


A common mistake a lot of NBs also make is running 2H front, as you're doubling down on the weakness of stamblade (no undodgeable damage) - this makes it possible for people to completely hardcounter you with a few dodge rolls.

Running DW & using spin2win to execute people who react with that dodge roll makes stamblade a lot better and more consistent.

Mobility
Another common mistake is wasting bar slots on things like Ambush & Shadow Image. Ambush is very telegraphed and a good player will simply dodge roll after you land or just burst you during the "travel time" of the skill - using it also prevents you from utilizing the most effective opener combos on stamblade.

I would instead recommend going 3 Swift & Steed for mobility, as that allows you a lot more maneuverability on stamblade, making surviving and getting kills and sustaining a lot easier.

Enough speed lets you get to striking distance of your target with as few cloaks as possible, making it easier to build low magicka regen. This also affects how often you can land heavy attacks for instance, impacting stamina sustain.

Enough speed also gets you out of fights fast enough, meaning you take less damage and waste less stamina (or magicka on cloaks).

Tankiness
You get this from Gaze of Sithis. Stamblade is not a class that relies a lot on blocking, and a lot of the damage you would be blocking is unblockable anyway (DoTs).

In fact, the only times I'd die before I ran Gaze of Sithis on stamblade would be when I didn't block something like a 3rd party Dawnbreaker. Gaze of Sithis lets you survive those instances, and many others.

Also, if you look at CMX after BGs you'll have a section where you can see how much damage you blocked, and the total damage taken. That amount is very low on a kiting/dodging oriented class such as stamblade.

The 1k health regen is also very noticeable on a class with very limited healing.

There's no question about Gaze of Sithis being BiS defensively for a stamblade.

If you don't reach 32k+ health with Gaze of Sithis I'd recommend putting attributes into health until you do. Even with 25k+ mitigations you'll want to have as big of a buffer as possible, as this is also your offensive window should you decide to go for riskier kills.


Contrary to the popular belief, stamblade is actually perfectly capable of "brawling" even on a full burst build, and on a build that's also tanky enough you can do that.


As for base rotations... DW Heavy (procs Vate 2H procs Thunder Caller procs Deadlands)->Surprise Attack->spin2win weaves if in execute is the very basic one, DW Heavy->Bow Proc->Surprise Attack stun->spin weaves would be maximum burst without incap.

Sometimes you go Heavy Attack->Incap->spin2wins, or if target is off balanced you can utilize that to Heavy Attack->bow proc (almost guaranteed land) - which rotation you go for really depends on the situation at hand.


I hope this helps.

Kaysha

This is a really good comment 👏

taugrim

Decimus wrote: »

Burst
Trying to build for sustained pressure (max stats) on a class with no undodgeable damage is a bad idea.

Try going for burst procs instead, as stamblade relies on being able to kill fast (though this doesn't mean you can't pressure).

Thunder Caller+Deadlands+Vate 2H is BiS currently when it comes to burst.
Next patch replace Thunder Caller with Caluurion & Deadlands with Stygian and it should still work.

This is an interesting idea.

Is Stygian changing? I've already tried it and the uptime on the 5-pc WD buff is excellent.

Decimus wrote: »

Running DW & using spin2win to execute people who react with that dodge roll makes stamblade a lot better and more consistent.

Can you unpack this a bit?

Is Whirlwind un-dodgeable?

Decimus wrote: »

The 1k health regen is also very noticeable on a class with very limited healing.

Rally has been amazing as a burst heal, and it being back-loaded tends to synergize with Stamblade mechanics, i.e.:
Rally > Ambush > damage the target, eat some return damage from target's allies > kill target or abandon > pop Rally or let it passively expire

Decimus wrote: »

There's no question about Gaze of Sithis being BiS defensively for a stamblade.

If you don't reach 32k+ health with Gaze of Sithis I'd recommend putting attributes into health until you do. Even with 25k+ mitigations you'll want to have as big of a buffer as possible, as this is also your offensive window should you decide to go for riskier kills.

I can see that, being able to stay on offense before having to bail.

baselesschart

Decimus wrote: »

Burst+Mobility+Tankiness.


A common mistake a lot of NBs also make is running 2H front, as you're doubling down on the weakness of stamblade (no undodgeable damage) - this makes it possible for people to completely hardcounter you with a few dodge rolls.

Running DW & using spin2win to execute people who react with that dodge roll makes stamblade a lot better and more consistent.

What is wrong with using 2H? You say using sustained pressure on nightblade is bad but then suggest using a weapon skill line that is literally designed for sustained pressure and not burst. People are always going to react with a dodge roll when they are on low health, changing your execute isn't going to change that. It's all about timing, if you nail that you will hit your opponent.

Decimus wrote: »

I would instead recommend going 3 Swift & Steed for mobility, as that allows you a lot more maneuverability on stamblade, making surviving and getting kills and sustaining a lot easier.

You shouldn't need to run 3 swift if you have easy access to major expedition which you should if you're using bow. 2H/bow has been BiS for your average stamblade for as long as I can remember. I've really only seen swift used on builds that are slow by nature or are super, super glass cannon.

taugrim

baselesschart wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Burst+Mobility+Tankiness.


A common mistake a lot of NBs also make is running 2H front, as you're doubling down on the weakness of stamblade (no undodgeable damage) - this makes it possible for people to completely hardcounter you with a few dodge rolls.

Running DW & using spin2win to execute people who react with that dodge roll makes stamblade a lot better and more consistent.

What is wrong with using 2H? You say using sustained pressure on nightblade is bad but then suggest using a weapon skill line that is literally designed for sustained pressure and not burst. People are always going to react with a dodge roll when they are on low health, changing your execute isn't going to change that. It's all about timing, if you nail that you will hit your opponent.

I think he's talking 2H specifically on frontbar.

So he means running Vate 2H on backbar is good, but frontbar is DW.

Decimus

taugrim wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Burst
Trying to build for sustained pressure (max stats) on a class with no undodgeable damage is a bad idea.

Try going for burst procs instead, as stamblade relies on being able to kill fast (though this doesn't mean you can't pressure).

Thunder Caller+Deadlands+Vate 2H is BiS currently when it comes to burst.
Next patch replace Thunder Caller with Caluurion & Deadlands with Stygian and it should still work.

This is an interesting idea.

Is Stygian changing? I've already tried it and the uptime on the 5-pc WD buff is excellent.

It's not, but burst procs won't stack if there's a delay on them, so running Deadlands with Vate 2H won't be an option anymore.

taugrim wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Running DW & using spin2win to execute people who react with that dodge roll makes stamblade a lot better and more consistent.

Can you unpack this a bit?

Is Whirlwind un-dodgeable?

Yes, as both morphs are AoE (and thus undodgeable).

Running high movement speed also makes it a lot easier to stay on top of targets with this ability, otherwise it'd be a lot harder to land it - it takes some getting used to to get the radius right.

taugrim wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

The 1k health regen is also very noticeable on a class with very limited healing.

Rally has been amazing as a burst heal, and it being back-loaded tends to synergize with Stamblade mechanics, i.e.:
Rally > Ambush > damage the target, eat some return damage from target's allies > kill target or abandon > pop Rally or let it passively expire

Rally is nice, but every class has this should they slot 2H - on top of their innate healing (and in some cases tankiness) - a stamcro will passively eat less DoT dmg, take 10% less dmg, heal for a big chunk every 2s and possibly run tether as well for even more additional healing. A stamden will have a lot of healing from vines, templar a lot from ritual/rune/living dark, stam sorc from crit surge/dark deals and so on.

This is what I mean by limited healing, because it is compared to other classes - and that's fine because rest of NB's toolkit makes up for it defensively, as long as you build right.

taugrim wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

There's no question about Gaze of Sithis being BiS defensively for a stamblade.

If you don't reach 32k+ health with Gaze of Sithis I'd recommend putting attributes into health until you do. Even with 25k+ mitigations you'll want to have as big of a buffer as possible, as this is also your offensive window should you decide to go for riskier kills.

I can see that, being able to stay on offense before having to bail.

Exactly - it makes a huge difference, I was able to notice the increased survivability immediately after switching to it from Wild Hunt Ring long time ago.

baselesschart wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Burst+Mobility+Tankiness.


A common mistake a lot of NBs also make is running 2H front, as you're doubling down on the weakness of stamblade (no undodgeable damage) - this makes it possible for people to completely hardcounter you with a few dodge rolls.

Running DW & using spin2win to execute people who react with that dodge roll makes stamblade a lot better and more consistent.

What is wrong with using 2H? You say using sustained pressure on nightblade is bad but then suggest using a weapon skill line that is literally designed for sustained pressure and not burst. People are always going to react with a dodge roll when they are on low health, changing your execute isn't going to change that. It's all about timing, if you nail that you will hit your opponent.

If you look outside the weapon skills, Dual Wield actually features a lot more damage - in case of the build I run I gain 61 more weapon damage & 1,6k more penetration by running DW as opposed to 2H (identical sets).

If people react by dodge rolling and you spin2win, they die as that execute is undodgeable.

Executioner is cheaper and deals slightly more damage, but that doesn't matter if the damage is dodged (just like everything else in NB tooltip can be).

baselesschart wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I would instead recommend going 3 Swift & Steed for mobility, as that allows you a lot more maneuverability on stamblade, making surviving and getting kills and sustaining a lot easier.

You shouldn't need to run 3 swift if you have easy access to major expedition which you should if you're using bow. 2H/bow has been BiS for your average stamblade for as long as I can remember. I've really only seen swift used on builds that are slow by nature or are super, super glass cannon.

Major Expedition stacks with 3 Swift (and any other speed buff) and you can get that from Race Against Time, which you can also utilize while cloaked (doesn't break it like a bow dodge roll would).

2H/Bow has never been BiS, but that hasn't stopped it from being popular - nothing wrong playing that way though if it is more "fun" for people.

Rakdos

Decimus wrote: »

The 1k health regen is also very noticeable on a class with very limited healing.

I agree with you for most of staff you said, but as a 2nd stage vampire it is almost impossible to get any health regen, not to metion the battle spirit will further halve the health regen.

I think the health regen is a nice little thing to have, but is not very noticeable

beardedJoe

Where do u get your recovery for this build? Serpent and lava foot?

SpiritKitten

What is MMR?

baselesschart

Decimus wrote: »

If you look outside the weapon skills, Dual Wield actually features a lot more damage - in case of the build I run I gain 61 more weapon damage & 1,6k more penetration by running DW as opposed to 2H (identical sets).

If people react by dodge rolling and you spin2win, they die as that execute is undodgeable.

Executioner is cheaper and deals slightly more damage, but that doesn't matter if the damage is dodged (just like everything else in NB tooltip can be).

That extra damage isn't going to do a whole lot if you choose to use the DoTs from DW. DW features more pressurized over time damage, which is why it fits PvE. In PvP, over the course of its life, burst has always been dominant, and some patches allowed DoTs to be competitive, but I'd argue there has never been a time where burst wasn't king in PvP.

Decimus wrote: »

Major Expedition stacks with 3 Swift (and any other speed buff) and you can get that from Race Against Time, which you can also utilize while cloaked (doesn't break it like a bow dodge roll would).

2H/Bow has never been BiS, but that hasn't stopped it from being popular - nothing wrong playing that way though if it is more "fun" for people.

Major expedition and 3 swift is a surplus of speed in my opinion. You lose a lot of healing and extra damage by not running 3 infused weapon damage on jewelry, but we're playing completely different builds on the same class. You're using procs, something I do not enjoy using, I like all my damage to come from my abilities, thus I run sets that make my abilities hit harder.

I would love to love DW, but its not a coincidence that its not widely used in most cases in PvP. I always am interested to see a DW build, especially on a nightblade, but I have never considered it to be a meta build choice.

Decimus

baselesschart wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

If you look outside the weapon skills, Dual Wield actually features a lot more damage - in case of the build I run I gain 61 more weapon damage & 1,6k more penetration by running DW as opposed to 2H (identical sets).

If people react by dodge rolling and you spin2win, they die as that execute is undodgeable.

Executioner is cheaper and deals slightly more damage, but that doesn't matter if the damage is dodged (just like everything else in NB tooltip can be).

That extra damage isn't going to do a whole lot if you choose to use the DoTs from DW. DW features more pressurized over time damage, which is why it fits PvE. In PvP, over the course of its life, burst has always been dominant, and some patches allowed DoTs to be competitive, but I'd argue there has never been a time where burst wasn't king in PvP.

You don't choose to use DoTs from DW, only spin2win - just like as a stamblade you'd only pick Executioner when using a 2H.

There is no point building around DoTs on a stamblade when other classes do it a lot better and are more difficult to counter.


On top of higher base damage for your Surprise Attack, Incap, Relentless, DW also gives you faster heavy attacks which makes sustaining a lot easier, allowing lower stamina regen and bigger focus on stacking weapon damage (or more speed).

This, on top of getting rid of the class weakness of no undodgeable damage.

There was a time when DoTs were the meta on pretty much everything - DoT abilities used to deal 2-3 times the damage they deal right now during a few patches (it was after Summerset I believe), which prompted a huge backlash and a subsequent nerf to them. Bleed stamblade was very popular back then and meta in dueling, though more burst oriented builds still existed.

baselesschart wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Major Expedition stacks with 3 Swift (and any other speed buff) and you can get that from Race Against Time, which you can also utilize while cloaked (doesn't break it like a bow dodge roll would).

2H/Bow has never been BiS, but that hasn't stopped it from being popular - nothing wrong playing that way though if it is more "fun" for people.

Major expedition and 3 swift is a surplus of speed in my opinion. You lose a lot of healing and extra damage by not running 3 infused weapon damage on jewelry, but we're playing completely different builds on the same class. You're using procs, something I do not enjoy using, I like all my damage to come from my abilities, thus I run sets that make my abilities hit harder.

I would love to love DW, but its not a coincidence that its not widely used in most cases in PvP. I always am interested to see a DW build, especially on a nightblade, but I have never considered it to be a meta build choice.

There is no such thing as a "surplus of speed" on nightblade, as you cannot sprint while cloaking and thus won't go over the speed cap. It also means that you can get out of things such as templar jabs or DK engulfing/noxious range fast enough to survive while using abilities.

Losing 312 (base) weapon damage to gain 21% speed is a very good trade unless you play a build that doesn't care about survivability - that weapon damage would benefit the procs as well (since the proc scaling in Blackwood), but there comes a point where you just don't need more damage, and being able to maneuver better and actually land that damage is a lot more important.


The reason most people never started running DW is because it's a lot easier to just copy what's popular than find out what's the most efficient.

It's the same with stamdens/stamcros and how many builds you still see using dizzy swing in open world/BGs (when things like Master DW+Rending Slashes and other alternatives are a lot more effective).

Once something becomes "mainstream" it stays that way in ESO - you can thank the big streamers/content creators.

baselesschart

Decimus wrote: »

There is no such thing as a "surplus of speed" on nightblade, as you cannot sprint while cloaking and thus won't go over the speed cap. It also means that you can get out of things such as templar jabs or DK engulfing/noxious range fast enough to survive while using abilities.

I think we are at two very different levels of skill, I don't need to sprint in cloak, nor do I have trouble getting out of templar jabs etc. My shade has always been quite sufficient at getting me out of sticky situations, between my major expedition and medium armor passives I have plenty of speed, could I have more? sure, but I don't need it, I'd rather get more damage and healing. Everything in this game has a diminishing value of effectiveness, after a certain point you really don't need any more of something. If I die outnumbered, its usually because there's just way too many people to fight or I was outnumbered by good players, and you're not going to 1vx good players, that just doesn't happen. Especially on a class as unforgiving as nightblade.

Decimus wrote: »

The reason most people never started running DW is because it's a lot easier to just copy what's popular than find out what's the most efficient.

It's the same with stamdens/stamcros and how many builds you still see using dizzy swing in open world/BGs (when things like Master DW+Rending Slashes and other alternatives are a lot more effective).

Once something becomes "mainstream" it stays that way in ESO - you can thank the big streamers/content creators.

Master DW+Rending is a good combo, but not every class effectively utilizes DW, its just not good on every class and thats just the fact of the matter. 2H wasn't popular just because, its passives and its abilities were more effective in PvP. I'm not trying to discredit you or any of your builds, you play what you do well with.

taugrim

Decimus wrote: »

baselesschart wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

If you look outside the weapon skills, Dual Wield actually features a lot more damage - in case of the build I run I gain 61 more weapon damage & 1,6k more penetration by running DW as opposed to 2H (identical sets).

If people react by dodge rolling and you spin2win, they die as that execute is undodgeable.

Executioner is cheaper and deals slightly more damage, but that doesn't matter if the damage is dodged (just like everything else in NB tooltip can be).

That extra damage isn't going to do a whole lot if you choose to use the DoTs from DW. DW features more pressurized over time damage, which is why it fits PvE. In PvP, over the course of its life, burst has always been dominant, and some patches allowed DoTs to be competitive, but I'd argue there has never been a time where burst wasn't king in PvP.

You don't choose to use DoTs from DW, only spin2win - just like as a stamblade you'd only pick Executioner when using a 2H.

There is no point building around DoTs on a stamblade when other classes do it a lot better and are more difficult to counter.


On top of higher base damage for your Surprise Attack, Incap, Relentless, DW also gives you faster heavy attacks which makes sustaining a lot easier, allowing lower stamina regen and bigger focus on stacking weapon damage (or more speed).

This, on top of getting rid of the class weakness of no undodgeable damage.

This makes sense.

I'm relatively new to Nightblade (dinged 50 earlier this month), but one of the things I appreciate about it is that for melee damage you can use either 2H or DW. The class kit is really good.

Classes like Warden and DK don't have a good spammable, and DW doesn't have a good spammable either. So a lot of Stamdens and StamDKs end up using 2H for Dizzying and Execute/Reverse Slice (and I use Stampeded on Stamden for the mobility and gap closer).

A problem with DW is that its gap closer is garbage (requires 2 presses, and 1st application can be dodged) and it doesn't have a good spammable for PVP.

However, Stamblade has a class gap closer in Ambush (which I know you said you don't use) and a superb class spammable in Surprise Attack (stun, off-balance, debuff, and resistance boost all rolled into 1).

So Stamblade seems like it can work with DW since as you noted the only weapon skill you need to slot is Whirlwind. I can see slotting Quick Cloak if you have BRP weapons.

I was originally going 2H / 1H+shield, but switched to 2H / Bow because of the dodge roll Major Expedition.

I'd consider going DW / Bow but giving up Rally would suck. You get around the Bow mobility with 3x Swift and 2H.

divnyi

baselesschart wrote: »

I'd consider going DW / Bow but giving up Rally would suck. You get around the Bow mobility with 3x Swift and 2H.

You can buy green pots at PvP vendor. Amount of green cash you get from BGs is just enough to sustain that. Doing that now at my DW/DW nightblade.

baselesschart

divnyi wrote: »

]

You can buy green pots at PvP vendor. Amount of green cash you get from BGs is just enough to sustain that. Doing that now at my DW/DW nightblade.

I'm not gonna give up rally. Its too good. Reliance on a potion for major brutality also isn't my thing. I'm for sure not giving up an ability slot for power extraction either.

SpiritKitten

So no one can answer what MMR is? Why do posters always assume the rest of us know what all the acronyms mean?

DrSlaughtr

SpiritKitten wrote: »

So no one can answer what MMR is? Why do posters always assume the rest of us know what all the acronyms mean?

I don't know what it is either and I've been running NB for 2 years! 😆

I run 2h because the slotable CP I use also work for executioner. If I went DW with whirling blades I'd have to slot the aoe slotable just for that one skill.

gariondavey

Constine is a god-tier stamblade in high mmr. Easily one of the best in the game. (Pc na)

SpiritKitten

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I don't know what it is either and I've been running NB for 2 years! 😆

I found this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415941/lets-talk-about-the-mmr

taugrim

Does anyone know whether the DW passive Ruffian applies to non-DW abilities? E.g. would it apply to abilities on the DW bar?

Edit: the tooltip states DW abilities only.