PvP Feedback

gariondavey

Hi @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

Thank you for the patch notes. Myself and many other PvP focused players have felt over the last few years that our feedback isn't really heard. These patch notes today have given many of us hope that our feedback is finally being heard. Feedback:

-the majority of the dk changes seem solid. whip costing mag for stam is still not viable in a pvp build given the number of mag abilities stam dks need to run anyway.
-the changes today on live to hrothgar + the changes to dark convergance in the notes are great
-reducing 1 shot proc builds ability to layer on a ton of procs is great
-toning down the proc damage (but buffing the weapon damage increase) is great
-the quality of life changes to dungeons, the armory, the assistant, skyshards etc visible for non-pc gamers all seem excellent
-the graphics changes hopefully will help some people, I don't have one of those cards but it is cool you guys are working on that stuff
-I don't pve a ton but if these crit damage changes result in lower dps it may cause some of those trial title runs to be unattainable
-the proc changes being able to crit seems ok, with the mechanical acuity change being a good move from a pvp standpoint (this would have otherwise caused 1 big proc set + mech acuity + mythic&trainee/monster set to become bis on most specs)

I will touch on a few other things:
-I am in probably the largest battleground guild on PC NA. Our players are excited about playing deathmatch battlegrounds. Most players I know don't like everyone running hrothgar and dark convergance in battlegrounds. The hrothgar live nerf has alleviated part of that, and the dark convergance rework proposed in the notes today alleviates the other part. Many players I know have been avoiding battlegrounds due to these 2 sets. They have a purpose in destroying zergs, but are obviously overtuned if everyone and their grandma runs them in battlegrounds. Please note this moving forward with the creation of other sets.
-I am also a member of a no-cp cyrodiil guild. Our guild has largely been enjoying the no-cp no proc campaign. Many ball groups we would fight before were impossible to kill because of their earthgores and other sets combined with stacking of heal over time abilities. Those groups now die without their eathgores, which is healthy for the game. I've played in cp proc pvp and find no-cp no proc pvp to be much more enjoyable. Performance is also better without cp and procs, that myself and others have observed.

After much discussion in game and on several discords with many accomplished and skilled players, I'd like to bring forwards some suggestions.
Please consider:
-allowing "stacking" of items in guild banks
-more cosmetic rewards for battlegrounds such as random motifs, skins, mounts. This can help breathe new life and players into battlegrounds. Don't underestimate how much PvP players are interested in fashion and housing.
-having solo random queue + group deathmatch queue
-increasing frequency of dm in solo queue to 40-50%
-reworking some of the bg game mode to encourage PvP but to also allow variation in games
all modes - kills count for 5 points. this will encourage PvP in non-deathmatch modes but will not overwhelm the importance of secondary objectives.
chaosball - holding the chaosball reduces movement speed by a set amount.
crazy king - 1 flag only on the map at a time. points earned for holding the zone + bonus points for kills in the zone.
domination - only 3 flags spawn on the map. points earned for holding the zones + bonus points for kills in the zone.
capture the relic - only 1 relic spawns, located in the middle of the map. it must be brought to your base. carrying it reduces movement speed by a set amount.
-investing in servers capable of offering better performance (often MYM has better performance than usual) for cyrodiil. performance is a limiting factor in cultivating the PvP population
-making all PvP no-cp. It is too difficult to balance for PvE, PvP no-cp and PvP cp. This will also make a more level playing ground for all new players, and will aid performance.
-allowing only 1 of each different heal over time ability to be present on a character at a time in PvP environments. This will stop radiating regen/vigor stacking ball groups but still allow healers to exist.

At the end of the day, I love this game. Over the last few years, myself and others have felt we were not being heard. Today has given many of us hope that the direction of this game will be one that will draw in and cultivate an enjoyable PvP experience. So many of us have seen our friends lists and PvP guilds shrink over the years due to performance, game direction and whiplash changes. These patch notes look to be the turnaround for some of those points of contention. Please focus on increasing performance and thank you again for listening to feedback on several issues.

Magio_

It's a whole New World around these parts.

TeruKisuke

Hello, PvP dabbler here.

@gariondavey I’m not sure I agree with some of your proposed changes to the battlegrounds but agree with others.

-If Crazy King had only one flag, then it would lead to the most deathmatchy team to win and they would hold the sole flag, leading to absolute domination of a game and it would not be fun to be one of the losing teams in a game mode where cleverly managing the map should be the reward, not by being distracted and killing people. Otherwise it would just be a less fun Deathmatch Mode restricting to one location and gameplay would not change from DM at all, defeating the purpose of this mode. Sidenote but Crazy King is my favorite.

-Domination having 3 flags will lead to a three-way tie standstill, just like Capture the Relic (which I hate by the way.) Please no.

-I agree with Chaosball having a cap on movement speed, as it can be insufferable to chase after it while having to elbow and shove everyone else out of the way. Currently not a fun gamemode for me for this reason, as there are too many options for players to get away.

-Capture The Relic is currently just... bad. It is not fun for me and the random queue will force it on me. I innately have the obligation to sit and defend the relic and essentially have to do nothing in fear of the enemy taking our relic while my teammates run off to die and I cannot help them. Nobody likes to defend, but if you don’t then you risk getting steamrolled by fast cappers, and three-way ties are a constant problem. Move them away from spawns, make less of them or even only one to cap, I don’t care. Just... something. Hate this mode. And nobody likes frustrating objectives.

I dunno. I’d prefer having free choice again. I know as a result absolutely nobody would play the chaosball and capture the relic modes, but maybe that’s precisely the problem, and something should be done to make them more...fun. But I do like having something to do besides Deathmatch, so the flag games hit that nice balance for me as they’re more strategy-focused instead of “murder everything as fast as you can!”

gameswithaspoon

The changes to Ravenwatch as a noproc-noCP campaign have been in the balance positive. DC and AD both went to locks and Que times this week for the first time all summer (when there were procs).

" -the majority of the dk changes seem solid. whip costing mag for stam is still not viable in a pvp build given the number of mag abilities stam dks need to run anyway. "

Agree with garion here: one of the whips should be stamina and one should be magicka. Seems a bit of an oversight to give the DK some love and still not make whip the class's main spamable.

gariondavey

Hi @TeruKisuke

Thanks for the comment.
Crazy king - this mode actively discourages player vs player. You can go 0-0-0 or 0-14-0 with 0 damage and 0 healing and still "win" the game. This is poor design and precisely what I am advocating against.
Domination - 3 flags would certainly not lead to a 3 way stand still. fewer flags would result in more conflict and pvp
Chaosball - agreed. ball moving slower will result in more pvp
Capture the relic - everyone i know hates this game mode too. the flaws with this would be alleviated with the proposed change and would encourage actual pvp

TeruKisuke

@gariondavey Thank you. I know it's not always pleasant to hear a contrary opinion, but I do like discussion.

-Crazy King: I do acknowledge your point on how someone can go without touching another player and still "win," but I don't think PvP is only about killing other players. (We are all not 4 years old, I know, so I don't think anyone here is stupid, so I'm not trying to undermine anyone's intelligence by explaining further, but I'll write my full thought out anyways.) Player vs player can mean strategically against each other as well, much like chess. So, I actually think that is to CK's strength as a game mode and makes it a different experience from Cyro, DM, and even Imp City. Maybe the scoreboard could better reflect who should get more points on the scoreboard by the end, but, fundamentally I think it still has its place. Not to mention that casual players enjoy it a lot.

I'll admit that I'd consider myself in-between casual and invested. I have two dedicated pvp characters so far and intend to make more, but I don't live in Cyro or BGs. So I may not be hardcore, but I still like to offer my perspective, and respectfully I just like it. It's more fun and less frustrating to me even if I lose. I'd list my personal ranking as CK > DM > Dom > CB > CTR.

-Domination: I admit I still get squeamish at the thought of 3 flags among 3 teams... I think even 2 would even be okay. But then again, with less flags, the match would move a lot slower. BGs can be fun (with friends, but the solo experience leaves a bit to be desired), but I think BGs are better fast than slow, or else if you're on a losing team it can mean a slow 10 minute death, like most CTR games.

Aldoss

I like all of these suggestions. I love the chaosball speed debuff a lot.

Crazy King needs to be just one flag that moves randomly around the arena, giving "freshly" spawned players the advantage of getting to those new spawns to get the flag in their favor, but are then tasked with the challenge of defending it.

Domination should probably be deleted to be honest or needs something drastic like "points are only awarded for kills that occur at or between your controlled points."

I agree with the relic only being 1 item capturable from the middle (or otherwise random spawn) and must be fought over by all teams and then returned at the base.

I like the suggestion that kills should always be worth 5 points in objective modes.

You could also completely revamp the scoring system and make points based on your highest contribution with bonus points for killing blows. Top DM players are getting 1.5-2Mil dmg or heal in a full term bg. You could cut that down to be more attainable and create a base off 1Mil dmg or heal per person or 4Mil per team. Divide that by 500 and you get 1 point per 8000 dmg or heal.

This means team contributions are now calculated and actively reward support roles for their contribution. Killing Blows being a bonus give single target "seal the deal" builds the ability to be recognized.

Contribution Points - 1pt per 8000 dmg or heal logged (pets would need to start counting)
Killing Blow Bonus = 5 or maybe 10pts per KB logged

Objective modes could keep their point caps to be won faster whereas DM could ALWAYS be 15 min matches and the top points scored wins.

My 2cents

divnyi

I agree with many things said here and I'm optimistic PvP player too.

Disagree with turning everything to noCP. Yep, harder to balance, but some players like CP.

Crazy king:
- should just have 2 flags randomly throughout the game, maybe one flag appearing half-term faster. 3 teams, 2 flags. The conflict is there. There would be no sitting duck because you want to fight for the new flag to earn most points.

Chaosball:
- should not have this weird "pick with Use" mechanic, award it to the one who lands a killing blow on ball carrier. Would be more slaughter-friendly.
- As for the speed debuff, ye, maybe some -15%, but not much - the hottest problem of chaosball game is not fast escapes, it's base sitting with ball, because your team res here and you have double chances at competing for the ball. Reducing speed too much might only add to the problem.
- Maybe increase ball damage only if player was sitting in the same location? Dunno how to implement the check so it will promote running around the whole map with the ball instead of running around some obstacle on your base. Maybe delayed spawn fire under your feet in 6m radius every that damages you only, and remove increased damage of the ball AoE? It would be fun it it would be possible to hold the ball for the whole game. Can be an achievement.

Domination:
- maybe instead of less flags, do more flags? What about putting all the flags in all the spawn locations where it can spawn during crazy king? Remove cap time, whoever touches flag instantly changes it to your colour. And lets say changing color from one player would have 5s delay, for the group fight scenario.

gariondavey

Thank you @Aldoss @divnyi @TeruKisuke for the comments

Artim_X

Great feedback! Just goes to show that Tamriel is here to stay just as long as ZOS continues to listen to feedback.

gariondavey

Artim_X wrote: »

Great feedback! Just goes to show that Tamriel is here to stay just as long as ZOS continues to listen to feedback.

The dream!