Insufficient communication on Dark Convergence concerns/fixes

Recremen

It is nice to see that Dark Convergence is getting another pass, but the text in the patch notes does not address one of the biggest concerns that the community has about the set, which is its abuse by exploiters to pull people out of keeps. There are still other concerns, even after the proposed combination of nerfs/buffs, but this is by far the most important as it makes keep defense nearly impossible when a small group of exploiters show up. Has this behavior been fixed, and if not, can we take it as an endorsement of the exploit? There is currently a significant gap between the people who know how to perform the exploit and those actually willing to use it, and I'd at least like the see that gap shrink one way or the other.

WreckfulAbandon

Can anyone confirm if they already ninja nerfed DC like they did Hrothgar's after the last maintenance? I'm done with this game for the rest of this patch cycle if not.

Crash427

The people who thought this set was a good idea in the first place are the ones who are supposed to fix it. How do you think that's gunna go?

MashmalloMan

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if they already ninja nerfed DC like they did Hrothgar's after the last maintenance? I'm done with this game for the rest of this patch cycle if not.

What do you mean about Hrothgar!? I was wondering why the hell it wasn't touched on PTS, did they fix it for live?

Jameson18

MashmalloMan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if they already ninja nerfed DC like they did Hrothgar's after the last maintenance? I'm done with this game for the rest of this patch cycle if not.

What do you mean about Hrothgar!? I was wondering why the hell it wasn't touched on PTS, did they fix it for live?

They cut it from 26% to 13%. They also added to the tool tip that it ignores spell resistance. (Which is probably one of the things that was wrong with it that they most likely aren't sure how to fix. - So they just cut the damage.)

doesurmindglow

I don't think they've stealth nerfed DC on the live server. Which in a way is too bad, probably needed it much more than Hrothgar.

However, I think both nerfs should've been on the PTS and certainly should be called out in patch notes. Changes this substantial, even though they're pretty widely expected at this point, should be communicated and probably be tested.

renne

Honestly, as someone who lives in Australia I just hope the changes mean I won't have to dump twice the stamina as I dodge roll right out of it, the game doesn't recognise I've dodge rolled right out of it (but still takes my stam) and pulls me back in so I have to dodge roll right back out of it all over again.

Ralamil

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno Anything you guys want to actually communicate regarding how similar this is to the emergent gameplay bannable offense that was "dragon leaping up onto a keep wall?"

Your own internal rules seem to be that elevation changes are disallowed by pulls - which is why things like silver leash do damage but fail to pull a target in myriad cases. Even as "slight" as being up on a large enough rock.

Gameplay was changed to disallow "knock up" effects from causing characters to fall/phase through grates in keep defenses. And yet here we are, with another of your poorly-designed, poorly implemented crutch sets (which, for the record, do NOT "zerg bust" like your team seems to think they do) which people are exploiting by pulling players not just through grates, but OFF OF KEEPS or STRAIGHT THROUGH FULLY-REPAIRED WALLS.

It is literally at least one of your jobs to communicate with your players. The fact is, the only active ZOS employees that ever get seen on these forums are the ones you hire to silence your critics and detractors. It is utterly unacceptable to think that your company deserves financial support from the players until someone at ZOS decides to start taking an active role again in keeping the community - whose interest in the game keeps you all employed - informed.

Aztlan

Okay, ZOS, this is crazy. More and more people know about this bug (how can it be anything else?), and they are taking full advantage. I appreciate that ZOS plans to tone down the effectiveness of the set, but this bug needs to be fixed ASAP.

Jaraal

Aztlan wrote: »

Okay, ZOS, this is crazy. More and more people know about this bug (how can it be anything else?), and they are taking full advantage. I appreciate that ZOS plans to tone down the effectiveness of the set, but this bug needs to be fixed ASAP.

How do you know it's a bug, and not an intended effect? Show me where ZOS has stated that Dark Convergence is NOT intended to pull people up onto, down off of, and through walls.

Ralamil

Jaraal wrote: »

Aztlan wrote: »

Okay, ZOS, this is crazy. More and more people know about this bug (how can it be anything else?), and they are taking full advantage. I appreciate that ZOS plans to tone down the effectiveness of the set, but this bug needs to be fixed ASAP.

How do you know it's a bug, and not an intended effect? Show me where ZOS has stated that Dark Convergence is NOT intended to pull people up onto, down off of, and through walls.

No other pull in the game allows elevation changes. They banned people who figured out how to get up into keeps via dragon leap, so clearly elevation changes are "unintended" (despite them first referring to it as "emergent gameplay," they did eventually ban folks for exploiting).

So, in spite of it usually being an unreasonable ask to "prove a negative," what evidence we do have seems very compelling.

And you show me where ZOS has stated anything in response to players' requests for more info that isn't patch notes or a once-a-quarter "throwing *** at the wall to see what sticks" stickied post, and I'll sell you the bridge at Alessia.

Jaraal

Ralamil wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Aztlan wrote: »

Okay, ZOS, this is crazy. More and more people know about this bug (how can it be anything else?), and they are taking full advantage. I appreciate that ZOS plans to tone down the effectiveness of the set, but this bug needs to be fixed ASAP.

How do you know it's a bug, and not an intended effect? Show me where ZOS has stated that Dark Convergence is NOT intended to pull people up onto, down off of, and through walls.

No other pull in the game allows elevation changes. They banned people who figured out how to get up into keeps via dragon leap, so clearly elevation changes are "unintended" (despite them first referring to it as "emergent gameplay," they did eventually ban folks for exploiting).

So, in spite of it usually being an unreasonable ask to "prove a negative," what evidence we do have seems very compelling.

And you show me where ZOS has stated anything in response to players' requests for more info that isn't patch notes or a once-a-quarter "throwing *** at the wall to see what sticks" stickied post, and I'll sell you the bridge at Alessia.

Just for the sake of argument, here are the facts:


1) ZOS created this set, so it should be working as they intended it to.... unless otherwise stated.

2) They acknowledged that they read player feedback about his set, and that there would be some related changes in the PTS patch notes.

3) The patch notes make no mention of any changes to to the irrelevancy of walls inherent with this set.

4) Cyrodiil on test is no-proc, so there's no way to test any changes regarding walls anyway.

5) Just because ZOS has mandated certain rules for gameplay in the past, it doesn't mean they can't make exceptions or change their minds. Their inconsistency with how the the game mechanics function is legendary, and nothing should be assumed.

6) I have not personally heard of anyone being banned for wearing and using Dark Convergence. If there is an exploit factor, it hasn't been officially acknowledged (that I'm aware of.)

7) They felt that the way Hrothgar's Chill functioned was not acceptable, and patched it on live. There has been no such patching of Dark Convergence, and it's reasonable to assume it will continue to pull people off, on, and through walls indefinitely. And most likely past Update 32, since that particular issue was not in the change notes on PTS.

Recremen

Jaraal wrote: »

Ralamil wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Aztlan wrote: »

Okay, ZOS, this is crazy. More and more people know about this bug (how can it be anything else?), and they are taking full advantage. I appreciate that ZOS plans to tone down the effectiveness of the set, but this bug needs to be fixed ASAP.

How do you know it's a bug, and not an intended effect? Show me where ZOS has stated that Dark Convergence is NOT intended to pull people up onto, down off of, and through walls.

No other pull in the game allows elevation changes. They banned people who figured out how to get up into keeps via dragon leap, so clearly elevation changes are "unintended" (despite them first referring to it as "emergent gameplay," they did eventually ban folks for exploiting).

So, in spite of it usually being an unreasonable ask to "prove a negative," what evidence we do have seems very compelling.

And you show me where ZOS has stated anything in response to players' requests for more info that isn't patch notes or a once-a-quarter "throwing *** at the wall to see what sticks" stickied post, and I'll sell you the bridge at Alessia.

Just for the sake of argument, here are the facts:


1) ZOS created this set, so it should be working as they intended it to.... unless otherwise stated.

2) They acknowledged that they read player feedback about his set, and that there would be some related changes in the PTS patch notes.

3) The patch notes make no mention of any changes to to the irrelevancy of walls inherent with this set.

4) Cyrodiil on test is no-proc, so there's no way to test any changes regarding walls anyway.

5) Just because ZOS has mandated certain rules for gameplay in the past, it doesn't mean they can't make exceptions or change their minds. Their inconsistency with how the the game mechanics function is legendary, and nothing should be assumed.

6) I have not personally heard of anyone being banned for wearing and using Dark Convergence. If there is an exploit factor, it hasn't been officially acknowledged (that I'm aware of.)

7) They felt that the way Hrothgar's Chill functioned was not acceptable, and patched it on live. There has been no such patching of Dark Convergence, and it's reasonable to assume it will continue to pull people off, on, and through walls indefinitely. And most likely past Update 32, since that particular issue was not in the change notes on PTS.

Gonna try to stop this conversation right now because it's extremely obvious what's happening. This is a pointless thing to be arguing. [snip] detracts from the overall conversation, which is focused on the fact that DC is objectively bugged and that players want an answer for when it's getting fixed.

[edited for baiting]

KingzZVI

@ZOS_GinaBruno also take a look at plaguebreak it is a killer to the game as well

TequilaFire

Haven't died from Plaguebreak yet.
Getting pulled and killed by DC must be saving me from it.

Recremen

TequilaFire wrote: »

Haven't died from Plaguebreak yet.

Plaguebreaker is its own bag of worms that deserves its own thread. All I can say for now is that a set which effectively fatally punishes players for coordinating well and playing smartly leaves much to be desired.

TequilaFire

The set is called Plaguebreak.
Our group just adjusted by not wearing sets like Curse Eater and being careful with purges.