Ok, Maybe Some Sort of DPS Validation for Vet Dungeons Wouldn't Hurt?

ThePlacidHatter

I encountered this, tonight.
Last boss of Vet City of Ash 1 (HM) took 7 minutes.

I've never seen DPS so low from two CP 1,000+ DPS. I've never seen that damn boss make so many hops.


PS. I'm the tank.
PPS. Yes, I know someone else is wearing Ebon (one of the DPS... ), I was definitely the tank.

JanTanhide

LOL! Yeah, i've seen this as well. I don't know how we can avoid this. This dungeon is easy to solo with one DPS in Vet HM so yeah, this is awful.

JanTanhide

Did you make a video of this?

ThePlacidHatter

JanTanhide wrote: »

Did you make a video of this?

No video. The whole dungeon took so damn long, a video would have taken up too much storage.

Here I was, thinking 'sweet, two easy hard modes, today'.
Boy was I wrong...


I did Spindle 1 Vet HM after this, with a CP 300+ and 400+ DPS, we zipped through at a nice pace.

Kusto

This is why we fake tank base game dungeons, including vets.
But if you really need to go in with your real tank then at least put some dps skills on bar and maybe change 1 gear set or both.

Ashtaris

I’ve done Vet dungeons with low DPS pugs also, but I don’t freak out about it. If you pug, then you have to be willing to help someone who may not be the best players in the game. That’s why most of the time I usually try to group up with guildies where I know their capabilities, and they know mine.

ThePlacidHatter

Ashtaris wrote: »

you have to be willing to help someone who may not be the best players in the game.

Yeah, nah.

If you can't even pull 20k DPS, don't queue as a DPS for vet dungeons.

CP5

Ashtaris wrote: »

I’ve done Vet dungeons with low DPS pugs also, but I don’t freak out about it. If you pug, then you have to be willing to help someone who may not be the best players in the game. That’s why most of the time I usually try to group up with guildies where I know their capabilities, and they know mine.

The thing is, if you're entering content labeled 'veteran' and the level of expectations others have is that you have a basic understanding of the game, yet that isn't met, why should people in a veteran dungeon be expected to help someone with the basics that they should have already learned running normal dungeons?

C3NTUR1ON

Many players are either unfamiliar w meta or slightly off meta builds or just take a casual approach.

C3NTUR1ON

We started a guild specifically for players wanting to focus on endgame dungeon content but are going to implement minimum dps to avoid free carry or else this happens.

BejaProphet

You can expect a tank to tank. You can expect a healer to heal.

[snip]

🤷‍♂️ I’m not sure how that works out but there it is.

Edit note: I’m very surprised that the word for the German fascists of WW2 is filtered but I bet that’s a good call on forums. 😂
[edited for baiting]

karekiz

ThePlacidHatter wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

you have to be willing to help someone who may not be the best players in the game.

Yeah, nah.

If you can't even pull 20k DPS, don't queue as a DPS for vet dungeons.

Don't blame the players for what is essentially ZoS's fault. Those players wouldn't even know WHAT their DPS is, if they were that interested they would have parsed, and probably got some base level down.

If you can que, you can que.

I am in favor of a Vet Undaunted Test for Base game DLC to unlock que for specific roles and one for DLC (Sperate).

N3CR01

I'm seeing this more and more in vet dungeons.
Always seems to be CP1000+ too.

Not long ago I saw a CP1800+ Templar spamming jabs on trash mob and doing virtually no damage at all.
I was always under the impression jabs was supposedly somewhat OP.
Never played a Templar so never used it myself.

Nazekeen

That's why I don't queue on my healers much anymore, it's excruciating.

Dragonredux

Ashtaris wrote: »

I’ve done Vet dungeons with low DPS pugs also, but I don’t freak out about it. If you pug, then you have to be willing to help someone who may not be the best players in the game. That’s why most of the time I usually try to group up with guildies where I know their capabilities, and they know mine.

I've done pug groups with low dps also but most of the base game dungeons at worst will just be a slow run, but put this group in the OP in Banished Cells 2 or any of the harder dlc dungeons and it will be unwinnable due to by mechanics or mobs. I'm willing to accept low dps on a lot of base game dungeons but there's a reason I never queue for it dungeons like BC2 on my tank, it's just not worth the time or headache on something that's doomed to fail.

Vet dungeons doesn't require to have the meta build or be the best player but it does require decent game knowledge and a competent build. (Not Ebon on a dps toon).

karekiz wrote: »

Don't blame the players for what is essentially ZoS's fault. Those players wouldn't even know WHAT their DPS is, if they were that interested they would have parsed, and probably got some base level down.

Sure we can blame the players. Target dummies exists for a reason. Go to any decently sized guild and test your dps on a 3m/6m dummy to get your dps in a dungeon setting.

Rittings

Healers do sometimes where Ebon... As a healer main myself, it's in my arsenal to have (though less effective now since we got our health buffs increased)... that said, putting in DPS checks/validation for content isn't really viable. Let's say I'm playing with my guildies, and want to use the group finder tool to do a random vet dungeon - and I don't mind my buddy isn't all that great, because I'm good enough to get through anything and don't mind helping... is that validation/check going to prevent them from queuing with me?

I understand the frustrations... but it's not really a viable option. All we can really do is try to help these players get better instead of trying to scream how bad they are by our own standards at them.

DovahkiinHeart

This is why I have created dps and healer presets with special add ons when I pug base game lvl I vet pledges like fungal grotto 1, coa/spindle/darkshade/coh/eh when my friends or guildemates are not on. I first put on my healer set up with healer cp and if I see the group is competent and does decent damage (doesn't have to be OP), I will swap to dps so the group damage will kill enemies before they are even a threat to our health. In my experience, people *only* complain about fake tank/healer when ppl are dying. So when things die quickly, no one has room to complain. For that same reason, when I see that it takes over 30 seconds to kill one pack of trash mob I covertly swap to my dps set up with damage cp and blow through the enemies and bosses. My dps is usually more than enough to push the group dps to kill things before the dps die.

Yesterday, during darkshade 1, I noticed the fights were relatively slow, but since no one was dying, I said in chat, 'hey sorry if u wanted me to heal but if I dps instead, fights will take shorter time. If ppl start dying tho I'll put my resto back on'. Surprisingly, no one in the grp minded - they didn't take my comment the wrong way by being oversensitive over a simple fact (that fights will be shorter). Long story short, we finished and they invited me to do the dlc pledge on vet (I originally planned to skip it since I don't like how long dlcs are).

BejaProphet

DovahkiinHeart wrote: »

This is why I have created dps and healer presets with special add ons when I pug base game lvl I vet pledges like fungal grotto 1, coa/spindle/darkshade/coh/eh when my friends or guildemates are not on. I first put on my healer set up with healer cp and if I see the group is competent and does decent damage (doesn't have to be OP), I will swap to dps so the group damage will kill enemies before they are even a threat to our health. In my experience, people *only* complain about fake tank/healer when ppl are dying. So when things die quickly, no one has room to complain. For that same reason, when I see that it takes over 30 seconds to kill one pack of trash mob I covertly swap to my dps set up with damage cp and blow through the enemies and bosses. My dps is usually more than enough to push the group dps to kill things before the dps die.

Yesterday, during darkshade 1, I noticed the fights were relatively slow, but since no one was dying, I said in chat, 'hey sorry if u wanted me to heal but if I dps instead, fights will take shorter time. If ppl start dying tho I'll put my resto back on'. Surprisingly, no one in the grp minded - they didn't take my comment the wrong way by being oversensitive over a simple fact (that fights will be shorter). Long story short, we finished and they invited me to do the dlc pledge on vet (I originally planned to skip it since I don't like how long dlcs are).

Unfortunately what you are doing is exactly what a healer should do. Nobody has to accomadate to the group more than the healer. We need the same thing from our DDs every run. Mostly we need the same thing from our tanks every run, though we could get desperate enough to wish a little DPS from them.

But as you’ve discovered, what we need from healers varies wildly from group to group. I salute you for adapting to it.

FrancisCrawford

As always, I think the only way ZoS would seriously consider doing anything like this is via an achievement. If you don't have the achievement, you aren't allowed to do X.

So if you want to suggest rather than just venting, perhaps you should try to think about what such an achievement could be.

And here's a complication -- when ZoS measures damage, do they include the damage that comes from your pet(s), if any? Obviously, they should. But while add-ons such as Combat Metrics include pet damage, I'm not so sure ZoS' damage reports do. .... Uh, do they?

LashanW

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

And here's a complication -- when ZoS measures damage, do they include the damage that comes from your pet(s), if any? Obviously, they should. But while add-ons such as Combat Metrics include pet damage, I'm not so sure ZoS' damage reports do. .... Uh, do they?

If you are referring to combat logs, yes they do show pet damage as a part of player's damage. You can also filter it out, to see damage done by player characters only. But default option is damage done with character + pets.

Like here, 20.05% of this sorcerer's damage is from pets. (at ZoS, not doing any naming and shaming here, it's my own character)

Amottica

Sorry about your experience. I use the DPS and role validation system already available.

Magio_

The whole point of the thread is that what we currently have is not enough.

People like to complain about "fake tanks" and/or long queues, but fail to realize that's a symptom of real tanks not using the Dungeon Finder. Part of the reason why is because how common it is for a Tank using the Dungeon Finder to get DPS that are not ready Veteran DLC dungeons.

It's not any players' responsibility to tutor anyone just because they used the Dungeon Finder. People can join guilds that exist for that reason. There's guides online they can read to get better. To expect every stranger to carry you through content and teach you the basic mechanics of the game in Veteran dungeons is called entitlement.

To ZOS: if possible look at the completion rate for Veteran DLC dungeons with the original group created by the Dungeon Finder. If it's low you have to do something about it.

Ramber

Did you offer to help them improve in any way? It does not take long to help those that want it and its not like it takes a lot of time to put someone on the right path to getting better at any role, perhaps about the time it takes to post here about it

Magio_

Ramber wrote: »

Did you offer to help them improve in any way? It does not take long to help those that want it and its not like it takes a lot of time to put someone on the right path to getting better at any role, perhaps about the time it takes to post here about it

[snip]

1) I shouldn't have to teach people the basic mechanics of the game's combat in an active Veteran DLC Dungeon. I help people with dungeon mechanics all the time. That's completely different. Nobody is expecting Trifecta Runs from the Dungeon Finder, but people should come in knowing enough of the basics of their role to clear. Anyone else not good enough for Veteran versions have Normal modes to get their Skill points and lore or w/e they care about.
2) Please teach me the magic words that will make someone that came doing 2k DPS suddenly start doing enough DPS to clear the harder Vet DLC dungeons.
3) Out of curiosity I've logged some of these happenings and these people don't even have complete sets sometimes. I've offered to craft gear for free, no response. Some people just don't care and they shouldn't be in Vet Dungeons.

It's a group activity, everybody should pull at least a good portion of their weight. Stop being entitled to other people's time and effort in bad Damage Dealers' behalf. Or do you expect me to port out of the instance, craft them 2 whole sets for free, port back, give it to them. Then coach 'em on a rotation just to clear a dungeon? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Hapexamendios

Just one reason I don't pug vet dungeons

Araneae6537

I love to PUG vet dungeons, even DLC ones, and I’m sympathetic to those still learning, making mistakes, not doing mega DPS, but just now I queued for vet WS2 and as far as I could tell both were just light-attacking with their bows and the mobs were taking foreeeeever to die.

This and yet one of the DPS announced a food check at the start of the dungoen and after the third mob, said they needed a moment to change their armor… I’m thinking, none of that is the problem… Should I have said something? I’ll speak up about mechanics but I don’t want to seem to be, in so many words, telling someone that they’re playing the game wrong.

I wasn’t going to leave though so was steeling myself for the ordeal ahead when, bless my stupid Internet, I dc’ed. I’m sorry, but I did take that as an out!

Raideen

The solution is to remove animation cancelling/light attack weaving (because its not intuitive, and not comfortable for many folks) and buff the base damage of abilities to compensate.

ESO needs to model their DPS from other MMORPG's where doing damage is a bit more straight forward. The fact that there are hundreds if not over a thousands videos telling people how to build on you tube is telling of how difficult it is to create an effective build in this game.

Secondly, every class in game should have vet worthy DPS based on the class toolkit alone without having to get into skill lines.

When knowing how to DPS becomes easier, these types of issues will start to disappear.


I can remember first starting ESO with my GF and I wanted to play a "ranger". So I made a wood elf with a bow and tried to run a couple vet dungeons...and I am sure I don't have to explain how terribly that went. To a new or newish player, there is an implied "all things are balanced" when someone chooses to use a certain weapon or class. The truth is the game is about the direct opposite of that. Until the developers can address the cluster expletive of their combat system, these types of issues will persist.

Snow_White

CP5 wrote: »

The thing is, if you're entering content labeled 'veteran' and the level of expectations others have is that you have a basic understanding of the game, yet that isn't met, why should people in a veteran dungeon be expected to help someone with the basics that they should have already learned running normal dungeons?

I think half the problem is players in normal being carried by an end game player doing 80%+ of the group DPS who stacks on the boss, stands in red and ignores all mechanics while burning because the damage isn’t high enough to kill him.

Considering the example that’s set for the,, is it any wonder that new vet players think they’re supposed to stack and burn while being oblivious to everything around them?

BejaProphet

Snow_White wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The thing is, if you're entering content labeled 'veteran' and the level of expectations others have is that you have a basic understanding of the game, yet that isn't met, why should people in a veteran dungeon be expected to help someone with the basics that they should have already learned running normal dungeons?

I think half the problem is players in normal being carried by an end game player doing 80%+ of the group DPS who stacks on the boss, stands in red and ignores all mechanics while burning because the damage isn’t high enough to kill him.

Considering the example that’s set for the,, is it any wonder that new vet players think they’re supposed to stack and burn while being oblivious to everything around them?

That explains it once, maybe twice. After that the reason they are still doing it gets less blameless.

But to be fair, I believe what you are saying does explain a lot of the general lack of preparedness for vet.

fiftypercentgrey

There should definitely be some kind of validation or DPS/HPS/DMG mitigation check for the roles in veteran mode. There should also be at least one successful playthrough of the dungeon in normal mode.

I usually play tank and in 50% of my random dungeon runs there is at least 1 DD who doesn't know any mechanics, has no DPS to speak of and can't or won't read or write or interact with the group at all. Basically, dead weight or (with some boss mechanics) the reason why the group wipes or why it takes AGES.

I am totally willing to explain mechanics and be patient. But in these cases... ugh. I would be helpful if player could not play veteran if they aren't dungeon running veterans.

Molydeus

Just from a mechanical standpoint the dungeons should be locked on veteran until they've been run at least once on normal. Every other MMO does this as far as I know.