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Predatory Monetization
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markulrich1966✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
Problem is, that the prices are ridiculous.
I do have more than enough real money, but a reason I have it is, that I buy only items that are worth the value.
A digital house definately is not worth 100 Euro, and 10 of them are not worth 1000 Euro. Simple as that.
I would buy each larger house for 10 Euro, so ZOS would gain 100 Euro from me for 10 of them.
But with the current pricing they earn nothing from me.Edited by markulrich1966 on September 18, 2021 2:19AM3 -
Celedayn✭✭✭I think pretty much everyone disagreeing here is missing an important fact: cosmetics selling can be predatory. It just can be. What is literally the endgame of ESO? Cosmetics, and other aesthetic things. Skins, houses, armors, costumes, etc. That is literally what most endgame players play for. So yes, a cosmetic item can be predatory.0 -
Celedayn✭✭✭Sheezabeast wrote: »If Imperials had the best racials in the game, the food from the store had the best stats, the potions had the best stats, soul gems and repair kits were expensive in game and hard to obtain, making the ones in the store mandatory, and homes of equal player occupancy not available for gold purchase, and crown for gold trading not being allowed, then yes, I would agree.
But not one of those things are true.
I'm sorry, but you're missing 99% of my argument. I said pay-to-win once at the very end regarding subs, which means you basically just turned yourself into a zombie and responded to none of the actual argument.1 -
Chips_Ahoy✭✭✭✭✭Chips_Ahoy wrote: »There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.
what?
you are writing from a smartphone/pc that has components whose raw material is slave labor, and often child labor.
You're enabling horribly unethical behavior.
That's an absolutely ridiculous comparison, and you know it. To begin with, I'm not condoning or making excuses for that, which is why I said the other individual was enabling. Secondly, I'm not the one performing that unethical behavior, whereas ZOS is intentionally being unethical. We can both agree that child labor is unethical -- no one here is supporting it.
exactly.
you take this too seriously, what do you hope to achieve? convince a TESO fan not to spend his money on something that you consider unethical?
a large part of the player base is 30yo +, fathers, mothers, grandparents, mature people and with a mature sense of life.
If you were congruent with your words, you were respectful and tolerant with what everyone does with his money, it is theirs, not yours.
You are acting as judge and jury.
Are they questionable practices? sure, one day will they end? I doubt it, they have been around forever.
Do you want to make a change? start a campaign on social media, stop playing TESO, send a proposal to the Senate, etc.
Here you will not achieve anything, as many others have already tried.
if we are part of the system, we are part of the problem.Edited by Chips_Ahoy on September 18, 2021 2:22AM1 -
Celedayn✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »4) False-Scarcity. This is actually illegal for many retailers, but ESO gets away with it with no issue.
Since when?
I've been surrounded by "limited time offer", "limited time sale price", "only during this event", etc... in everything from games to retail, all my life. Nothing new here. Where is this illegal?Kiralyn2000 wrote: »4) False-Scarcity. This is actually illegal for many retailers, but ESO gets away with it with no issue.
Since when?
I've been surrounded by "limited time offer", "limited time sale price", "only during this event", etc... in everything from games to retail, all my life. Nothing new here. Where is this illegal?
Artificial Scarcity is illegal in some extents, in some countries. I'd research the concept; ESO is rife with it. Also, ESO's Artificial Scarcity is much worse than most MMOs, because the time windows are shorter, the gap between them longer, and the items are more overpriced.1 -
Myux✭✭✭the fact that they left out mundus stones when they have stuff like TOGGLEABLE VAMPIRISM makes it so stupidly clear that they want you to buy the mundus stones for your house. seeing that [snip] was actually upsetting. and yeah everything else you said is clear as day to me. [snip]
[snip]
so anyway buying the mobile armorer will probably cost 40 bucks. enjoy?
[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 20, 2021 6:05PM2 -
Celedayn✭✭✭Chips_Ahoy wrote: »Chips_Ahoy wrote: »There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.
what?
you are writing from a smartphone/pc that has components whose raw material is slave labor, and often child labor.
You're enabling horribly unethical behavior.
That's an absolutely ridiculous comparison, and you know it. To begin with, I'm not condoning or making excuses for that, which is why I said the other individual was enabling. Secondly, I'm not the one performing that unethical behavior, whereas ZOS is intentionally being unethical. We can both agree that child labor is unethical -- no one here is supporting it.
exactly.
you take this too seriously, what do you hope to achieve? convince a TESO fan not to spend his money on something that you consider unethical?
If you were congruent with your words, you were respectful and tolerant with what everyone does with his money, it is theirs, not yours.
You are acting as judge and jury.
Are they questionable practices? sure, one day will they end? I doubt it, they have been around forever.
Do you want to make a change? start a campaign on social media, stop playing TESO, send a proposal to the Senate, etc.
Here you will not achieve anything, as many others have already tried.
if we are part of the system, we are part of the problem.
Nah, you're missing the entire ethos of what I'm saying. Pointing out unethical behaviors, pointing out objective comparisons to prices/quality/etc regarding similar competitors in the market; none of this is acting as an arbiter of truth. It is pointing out something that should be pointed out. I do not demean anyone for spending money on ESO. I merely criticize ZOS for their intentionally manipulative practices.3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think pretty much everyone disagreeing here is missing an important fact: cosmetics selling can be predatory. It just can be. What is literally the endgame of ESO? Cosmetics, and other aesthetic things. Skins, houses, armors, costumes, etc. That is literally what most endgame players play for. So yes, a cosmetic item can be predatory.
I think everyone disagreeing with the information presented is that they disagree. Some have made valid points that artificial scarcity is not illegal (in and of itself which is the case here) and that there is no predatory selling as at least one pointed out the design of all the games was in place well before the cash shop became a thing. Cosmetics are not required to any extent so they cannot be predatory by definition.
So while we respect that you and others have an opinion we are merely presenting our own opinion and basis for them.0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »4) False-Scarcity. This is actually illegal for many retailers, but ESO gets away with it with no issue.
Since when?
I've been surrounded by "limited time offer", "limited time sale price", "only during this event", etc... in everything from games to retail, all my life. Nothing new here. Where is this illegal?
Some forms of it are illegal in my country, although the law doesn't really acknowledge digital (thus infinitely reproduceable) goods.
The gist of it is that time-limited stuff is mostly fine, but pretending that something is almost out of stock when it actually isn't is prohibited and there have already been adhortatory letters sent to big online stores for pretending they were running out of stock soon.
I'd say it's definitely similar to that here. It's not like this time limited house can only be sold during this season because that's when the devs have the opportunity to produce it, but won't be able to otherwise. Then it also wouldn't be artificial scarecity anymore. There are some forms of it that are allowed like christmas stuff not being sold all year 'round, but I don't see how that applies to most of ESO's time-limited digital content since that's definitely not seasonal.
Granted, I'm no lawyer and the game would probably be banned in my country if it actually already broke a law. There also might be some law doesn't apply to games yet when it should.Edited by Ratzkifal on September 18, 2021 2:29AMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
AuraStorm43✭✭✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »
Saying its “pay for convenience” ignores the fact that ESO makes things inconvenient on purpose to encourage crown store purchases
Its the same thing as “time savers” ignoring the fact the game wasted your time to encourage those purchases
YUP.
The "wasted time" is actually what keeps the game going long term. You see for an MMO to survive they need to provide new content, they need players to repeat existing content and they need players participating in a variety of content.
Chapters and DLCs take care of the new content. Gear that is good for PvP that can be gained only in PvE content and skills good for PvE that can only be gained in PvP helps get players into a variety of content and RNG takes care of repeating content. To that end I don't think they should have started selling skyshards and things like that in the crown store. They aren't idiots though. They know how to price things low enough so the players that absolutely hate what they see as the grind will purchase the shards but price them high enough most will go ahead and play the game on each character. Good for the game and all players got to choose for themselves which way to go.
Sure but that “wasted time” with the psijic skill line, undaunted, mages guild, etc encourages players to bypass the grind by paying for it, and i can’t buy those with crowns from other players
Not to mention research and riding training being put on timers like its a mobile game, which also encourages people to buy crowns to bypass the grind
2 -
AuraStorm43✭✭✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
Saying its “pay for convenience” ignores the fact that ESO makes things inconvenient on purpose to encourage crown store purchases
Its the same thing as “time savers” ignoring the fact the game wasted your time to encourage those purchases
Which of those inconveniences was not in the game at launch, when there was no Crown Store, though?There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. I rarely ever purchase Crowns in this game. It's about the predatory and exploitative, unethical tactics that they are using. No one can contest that they are using unethical tactics; it's undeniable. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.
I'm not enabling it by ignoring it. I'm not falling for it. They are not getting any crowns out of me other than what I get from the subscription.
I don’t really care what was in the crown store on release, i care about the incessant nickel and diming ZOS does for olayers1 -
Celedayn✭✭✭I think pretty much everyone disagreeing here is missing an important fact: cosmetics selling can be predatory. It just can be. What is literally the endgame of ESO? Cosmetics, and other aesthetic things. Skins, houses, armors, costumes, etc. That is literally what most endgame players play for. So yes, a cosmetic item can be predatory.
I think everyone disagreeing with the information presented is that they disagree. Some have made valid points that artificial scarcity is not illegal (in and of itself which is the case here) and that there is no predatory selling as at least one pointed out the design of all the games was in place well before the cash shop became a thing. Cosmetics are not required to any extent so they cannot be predatory by definition.
So while we respect that you and others have an opinion we are merely presenting our own opinion and basis for them.
Okay, so let's go point-by-point with what you disagree with, just to be clear.
1. Do you agree that compared to competitors, ESO's items are overpriced? Such as -- one house costing as much as entire video game sagas, one outfit costing as much as a well-made indie game, etc?
2. Do you agree that compared to other MMOs, such as Guild Wars 2 which does not have a sub model *at all*, ESO's expansions and DLCs have very little content, to the point of being around as low as 10% the amount of content? (Mind you, it took me literally hundreds, nearly a thousand hours perhaps, to 100% complete Path of Fire and LWS4 in Guild Wars 2, while it took me 8 hours to 100% Blackwood).
3. Do you agree that Crown Crates include some level of gambling, and that more and more items have been shuffled into them to make it more difficult to obtain them in an affordable way?
4. Do you agree that ESO's employment of artificial scarcity -- which is very severe -- is a bad thing?Edited by Celedayn on September 18, 2021 2:38AM0 -
Psiion✭✭✭✭Greetings,
After review of this thread, we have decided to go ahead and close it down as it is non-constructive in nature. The forums are a place for everyone to share their opinions, but both Bashing and Baiting are simply inappropriate and against the Forum's Community Rules. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.3
This discussion has been closed.