Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Predatory Monetization
Celedayn
✭✭✭
Hello. I just wanted to post my observations about this, since it's been bugging me, and the release of the new stream depicting the Armory System has further exacerbated my feelings on this issue.
I've played basically all of the "Big 5" MMOs extensively; I am at end-game level content in all of them, save for WoW as I haven't played Shadowlands, but I was at end-game in BfA and Legion. Out of all of the major MMOs, it appears to me that ESO has - by far - the most predatory monetization. It's... actually absurdly predatory, like the MMO equivalent of a mobile game. I'm going to expand on why, using basic market concepts, some of which are literally illegal for typical retailers, but the gaming market tends to be fairly unregulated.
1) This one isn't a market concept, it's just an observation. ESO's items are extremely unaffordable, and they are becoming more unaffordable constantly. While we originally used to be able to buy many costumes/outfits for 1,000 Crowns or less (usually less), even these old ones have largely been shuffled into Crown Crates. The new ones are virtually all in Crown Crates, or they tend to be 2,000 Crowns or more. Additionally, virtually all of the new homes are Notable, sitting at at least 15,000 Crowns for the furnished ones, which can translate to anywhere from 100-150 USD depending on whether or not you buy crowns in a bundle. This is the price of two triple-A games, roughly, or several high quality indie games -- for a single house of re-used assets that we purchased by buying the DLC.
The Armory System that they're coming out with is a prime example of this, by the way. It's ridiculous that they've made it basically unusable without purchasing extra slots, and getting the assistant (who likely costs 5,000 Crowns). They rarely ever come out with truly free QoL updates anymore; it's all behind an unaffordable pay wall meant to target whales.
2) This brings me to the issue of DLCs and expansions. If you compare ESO to World of Warcraft, or Final Fantasy XIV, and Guild Wars 2, the amount of content in each expansion is abysmal, but the price is exactly the same, or even more expensive. Take Legion, Path of Fire or Shadowbringers; at least five new zones in each, several raids, dozens of new class abilities, new classes, huge updates QoL and otherwise, etc. In comparison, with Blackwood we get one relatively small zone largely using the same assets across the entire map (outside of Leyawiin, which I admit has great assets), one raid, a VERY poorly made Companion System, and that's about it. Instead, what ESO tends to do is make you pay for DLC on top of the expansion in order to get a decent experience, such as with Dungeons and an additional zone. To begin with, every new expansion should have at least two dungeons INCLUDED with it. They should not be barred behind additional DLC. WoW and FFXIV's expansions each introduce anywhere from 5-10 new dungeons, roughly.
I understand that quality over quantity is important. I prefer ESO's dungeons and raids to FFXIV's, to be clear. However, I am merely taking issue with the fact that we receive almost nothing for the 50 dollar price tag of an expansion, and I find it amusing that the dungeons don't even initially come with their Style Pages, we have to wait for further updates. They're so rushed to fit this content release schedule that the content that they release is unfinished. The point is further revenue and player engagement, which is all Corporate jargon for bleeding out as much money as possible, in as compact a way as possible.
3) Crown Crates/Gambling. Obviously, this is an issue, and it is literally gambling. They are extremely exploitative; overpriced, loot-boxes. They're actually even worse than many game loot boxes, because they operate on the next concept, which permeates much of ESO's monetization.
4) False-Scarcity. This is actually illegal for many retailers, but ESO gets away with it with no issue. The constant 'LIMITED TIME' for EVERYTHING. Everything is cycled out on twenty different cycles, which is literally a psychological game to make players feel pressured to buy things that are overpriced. This is proven, and Corporate psychologists (I forget their actual specialized term) have built systems like this in games/mobile games to maximize overpriced monetization. It's the idea that if you miss the item, you may never be able to get it again. What if it doesn't come back; what if you aren't playing when it does; what if it takes a year, two years, three years? These pressures make people feel actually forced to spend 150 dollars on a house, or 25 dollars on a weapons pack, or whatever. It is extremely unethical.
All of this, and you add a pay-to-win sub model on top of it (I'm sorry, but the crafting bag and the extra quality of life things make it pay-to-win) and you have a game with worse monetization than any other MMO I've ever played.
These are just my observations, and I'd been wanting to post them for a while. I'm sure many of you all have noticed this, but I think it's an important discussion to have.
Edited by Celedayn on September 18, 2021 1:12AM I've played basically all of the "Big 5" MMOs extensively; I am at end-game level content in all of them, save for WoW as I haven't played Shadowlands, but I was at end-game in BfA and Legion. Out of all of the major MMOs, it appears to me that ESO has - by far - the most predatory monetization. It's... actually absurdly predatory, like the MMO equivalent of a mobile game. I'm going to expand on why, using basic market concepts, some of which are literally illegal for typical retailers, but the gaming market tends to be fairly unregulated.
1) This one isn't a market concept, it's just an observation. ESO's items are extremely unaffordable, and they are becoming more unaffordable constantly. While we originally used to be able to buy many costumes/outfits for 1,000 Crowns or less (usually less), even these old ones have largely been shuffled into Crown Crates. The new ones are virtually all in Crown Crates, or they tend to be 2,000 Crowns or more. Additionally, virtually all of the new homes are Notable, sitting at at least 15,000 Crowns for the furnished ones, which can translate to anywhere from 100-150 USD depending on whether or not you buy crowns in a bundle. This is the price of two triple-A games, roughly, or several high quality indie games -- for a single house of re-used assets that we purchased by buying the DLC.
The Armory System that they're coming out with is a prime example of this, by the way. It's ridiculous that they've made it basically unusable without purchasing extra slots, and getting the assistant (who likely costs 5,000 Crowns). They rarely ever come out with truly free QoL updates anymore; it's all behind an unaffordable pay wall meant to target whales.
2) This brings me to the issue of DLCs and expansions. If you compare ESO to World of Warcraft, or Final Fantasy XIV, and Guild Wars 2, the amount of content in each expansion is abysmal, but the price is exactly the same, or even more expensive. Take Legion, Path of Fire or Shadowbringers; at least five new zones in each, several raids, dozens of new class abilities, new classes, huge updates QoL and otherwise, etc. In comparison, with Blackwood we get one relatively small zone largely using the same assets across the entire map (outside of Leyawiin, which I admit has great assets), one raid, a VERY poorly made Companion System, and that's about it. Instead, what ESO tends to do is make you pay for DLC on top of the expansion in order to get a decent experience, such as with Dungeons and an additional zone. To begin with, every new expansion should have at least two dungeons INCLUDED with it. They should not be barred behind additional DLC. WoW and FFXIV's expansions each introduce anywhere from 5-10 new dungeons, roughly.
I understand that quality over quantity is important. I prefer ESO's dungeons and raids to FFXIV's, to be clear. However, I am merely taking issue with the fact that we receive almost nothing for the 50 dollar price tag of an expansion, and I find it amusing that the dungeons don't even initially come with their Style Pages, we have to wait for further updates. They're so rushed to fit this content release schedule that the content that they release is unfinished. The point is further revenue and player engagement, which is all Corporate jargon for bleeding out as much money as possible, in as compact a way as possible.
3) Crown Crates/Gambling. Obviously, this is an issue, and it is literally gambling. They are extremely exploitative; overpriced, loot-boxes. They're actually even worse than many game loot boxes, because they operate on the next concept, which permeates much of ESO's monetization.
4) False-Scarcity. This is actually illegal for many retailers, but ESO gets away with it with no issue. The constant 'LIMITED TIME' for EVERYTHING. Everything is cycled out on twenty different cycles, which is literally a psychological game to make players feel pressured to buy things that are overpriced. This is proven, and Corporate psychologists (I forget their actual specialized term) have built systems like this in games/mobile games to maximize overpriced monetization. It's the idea that if you miss the item, you may never be able to get it again. What if it doesn't come back; what if you aren't playing when it does; what if it takes a year, two years, three years? These pressures make people feel actually forced to spend 150 dollars on a house, or 25 dollars on a weapons pack, or whatever. It is extremely unethical.
All of this, and you add a pay-to-win sub model on top of it (I'm sorry, but the crafting bag and the extra quality of life things make it pay-to-win) and you have a game with worse monetization than any other MMO I've ever played.
These are just my observations, and I'd been wanting to post them for a while. I'm sure many of you all have noticed this, but I think it's an important discussion to have.
27
-
Epona222✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I agree with a lot of your post, except addons do not do the same thing for free - to respec skill points you need to visit a respec shrine and pay gold, or use a respec scroll. To change between WW and Vampire you need to go cure one then do the quest for the other (each time you want to swap) or buy those things from the crown store.
Addons cannot and do not do those things.GM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC
Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.6 -
Celedayn✭✭✭I agree with a lot of your post, except addons do not do the same thing for free - to respec skill points you need to visit a respec shrine and pay gold, or use a respec scroll. To change between WW and Vampire you need to go cure one then do the quest for the other (each time you want to swap) or buy those things from the crown store.
Addons cannot and do not do those things.
Fair enough. I edited my post.2 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Do they not realize that mods do the same thing, for free? They rarely ever come out with free QoL updates anymore; it's all behind an unaffordable pay wall meant to target whales.
Something that amazes and saddens me is that, with the huge number of whales in this game willing to shell out thousands of dollars a month for basically virtual cosmetics, these same big spenders will basically NEVER toss a donation or sponsor the patreon of the popular mod authors that make actual resources and tools they use to enhance their gaming experience in a tangible way.
It is like it is only cool to throw money at people who are already rich. The psychology is deeply disturbing to me.
8 -
Celedayn✭✭✭WhyMustItBe wrote: »Do they not realize that mods do the same thing, for free? They rarely ever come out with free QoL updates anymore; it's all behind an unaffordable pay wall meant to target whales.
Something that amazes and saddens me is that, with the huge number of whales in this game willing to shell out thousands of dollars a month for basically virtual cosmetics, these same big spenders will basically NEVER toss a donation or sponsor the patreon of the popular mod authors that make actual resources and tools they use to enhance their gaming experience in a tangible way.
It is like it is only cool to throw money at people who are already rich. The psychology is deeply disturbing to me.
A lot of our society is like this, unfortunately.3 -
Soraka✭✭✭✭✭I agree. There's very few things I'm really into in the cash shop and I still manage to spend more than I feel like I used to. Games in general seem to be moving in this direction.1 -
PeacefulAnarchy✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Not gonna defend ESO's monetization generally, but WoW and FFXIV are sub only, so this isn't really comparable. If you sub to ESO those dungeons are included as is the Q4 DLC.2) This brings me to the issue of DLCs and expansions. If you compare ESO to World of Warcraft, or Final Fantasy XIV, the amount of content in each expansion is abysmal, but the price is exactly the same, or even more expensive. Take Legion or Shadowbringers; at least five new zones in each, several raids, dozens of new class abilities, new classes, huge updates QoL and otherwise, etc. In comparison, with Blackwood we get one relatively small zone largely using the same assets across the entire map (outside of Leyawiin, which I admit has great assets), one raid, a VERY poorly made Companion System, and that's about it. Instead, what ESO tends to do is make you pay for DLC on top of the expansion in order to get a decent experience, such as with Dungeons and an additional zone. To begin with, every new expansion should have at least two dungeons INCLUDED with it. They should not be barred behind additional DLC. WoW and FFXIV's expansions each introduce anywhere from 5-10 new dungeons, roughly.
As someone who doesn't sub I prefer ESO's implementation of DLC/expansions, even if the prices are all a bit steep for my liking.2 -
Celedayn✭✭✭PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »
Not gonna defend ESO's monetization generally, but WoW and FFXIV are sub only, so this isn't really comparable. If you sub to ESO those dungeons are included as is the Q4 DLC.2) This brings me to the issue of DLCs and expansions. If you compare ESO to World of Warcraft, or Final Fantasy XIV, the amount of content in each expansion is abysmal, but the price is exactly the same, or even more expensive. Take Legion or Shadowbringers; at least five new zones in each, several raids, dozens of new class abilities, new classes, huge updates QoL and otherwise, etc. In comparison, with Blackwood we get one relatively small zone largely using the same assets across the entire map (outside of Leyawiin, which I admit has great assets), one raid, a VERY poorly made Companion System, and that's about it. Instead, what ESO tends to do is make you pay for DLC on top of the expansion in order to get a decent experience, such as with Dungeons and an additional zone. To begin with, every new expansion should have at least two dungeons INCLUDED with it. They should not be barred behind additional DLC. WoW and FFXIV's expansions each introduce anywhere from 5-10 new dungeons, roughly.
As someone who doesn't sub I prefer ESO's implementation of DLC/expansions, even if the prices are all a bit steep for my liking.
Compare Blackwood to Guild Wars 2, Path of Fire. It has probably 5-10% the amount of content, and GW2 is also non-sub. Also, GW2 came out with all Living World seasons for free, each of which has more content than an ESO expansion.5 -
Epona222✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I agree with a lot of your post, except addons do not do the same thing for free - to respec skill points you need to visit a respec shrine and pay gold, or use a respec scroll. To change between WW and Vampire you need to go cure one then do the quest for the other (each time you want to swap) or buy those things from the crown store.
Addons cannot and do not do those things.
Fair enough. I edited my post.
There *is* some crossover between what the Armory system offers and what can be achieved with addons (gear switching on the fly when not in combat is the main thing that addons can achieve, you can also save and change CP loadout but have to pay the usual fee to do so).
There is a lot that Armory will do that addons cannot do. I think a lot of people who think it is just the same as what addons can do but not as good because you can't use it in trials has a misunderstanding of what addons are able to do.
I think getting the Armory table free as a furnishing is excellent. I am really looking forward to being able to decide whether I want to be DPS or Tank today, or if I want to do a PvE dungeon or actually go be viable in Cyrodil instead. At the click of a button in the Armory menu in my house at no cost and without having to visit a respec shrine.
What I am NOT keen on (and my heart started to sink) is that buying extra slots is *per character* - that reads as a full on money-grabbing move to me. (I disapprove of the same per character approach to outfit slots).
Also I strongly suspect that the assistant will be crown store only and probably cost a lot.Edited by Epona222 on September 18, 2021 1:14AMGM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC
Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.6 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭A lot of our society is like this, unfortunately.
The billion dollar corporations who are the beneficiaries of the repeat business modding brings them haven't set up any system to give mod authors anything either. No sponsorship, no surreptitious support, not even so much as a mention on one of their live streams like the twitch crowd gets. Something in the relationship between corporation, whale, and modder is apparently a big toxic no-no to even TALK about publicly.
I'll have to read up to see what this new armory feature is all about. But I agree the monetization scheme of this company has skirted the fine line for years, and recent efforts to appease regulators I believe have not gone far enough. Things are still way to expensive and too much relies on RMT RNG, which the endeavor system does not functionally address.
I wouldn't mind if it weren't for the "year long" formula kind of burning me out a little bit as the content we are getting has taken a bit of a drop in quality hit in terms of story, depth, and innovation at the same time the prices have been rising substantially.
People generally just wash this sort of behavior as "it's capitalism, everybody does it."
What really boggles my mind is that it wouldn't actually cost them anything to name drop some modders once in 8 years to help generate people that actually need the money some attention for all they do to help their game and profits, yet they sort of get treated like pariah and shunned from every live stream since the game launched.
/shrug1 -
joerginger✭✭✭✭✭
Also I strongly suspect that the assistant will be crown store only and probably cost a lot.
No need to suspect that. They said so loud and clear on stream. Of course it will only be in the crown store. And the price of assistants has been known for ages and it certainly isn't cheap.
1 -
Epona222✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭joerginger wrote: »
Also I strongly suspect that the assistant will be crown store only and probably cost a lot.
No need to suspect that. They said so loud and clear on stream. Of course it will only be in the crown store. And the price of assistants has been known for ages and it certainly isn't cheap.
Ah I missed where they said that (I asked several times in chat) - I have a bit of a hearing issue and was struggling due to loud music from the neighbours place for part of the stream!GM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC
Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."4 -
Celedayn✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.5 -
Celedayn✭✭✭Sorry, let me also add to my own post: I never said the Crown store determines the outcome of the game. I said it was predatory and used psychological manipulation to overprice and exploit.4
-
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.The Moot Councillor1 -
Celedayn✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. I rarely ever purchase Crowns in this game. It's about the predatory and exploitative, unethical tactics that they are using. No one can contest that they are using unethical tactics; it's undeniable. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.6 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
but you did bother.
And your examples were subscription based games. At least with ESO the choice is yours.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Celedayn✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
but you did bother.
And your examples were subscription based games. At least with ESO the choice is yours.
Nah, I didn't respond to most of your arguments. Just think about them, real deeply. How does one achieve maximal power/success in an MMO? Time efficiency. What helps you do that the best? Convenience...2 -
AuraStorm43✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
Saying its “pay for convenience” ignores the fact that ESO makes things inconvenient on purpose to encourage crown store purchases
Its the same thing as “time savers” ignoring the fact the game wasted your time to encourage those purchases7 -
Celedayn✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »
Saying its “pay for convenience” ignores the fact that ESO makes things inconvenient on purpose to encourage crown store purchases
Its the same thing as “time savers” ignoring the fact the game wasted your time to encourage those purchases
YUP.4 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Almost forgot. We now have Endeavors to acquire crown crate items and we can use in game gold to have things purchased from the crown store sent to us. There is nothing in a crown crate you can't eventually get just by playing the game and if you know someone willing everything in the crown store is available to you for also basically just playing the game.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Chips_Ahoy✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.
what?
you are writing from a smartphone/pc that has components whose raw material is slave labor, and often child labor.
You're enabling horribly unethical behavior.2 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
Saying its “pay for convenience” ignores the fact that ESO makes things inconvenient on purpose to encourage crown store purchases
Its the same thing as “time savers” ignoring the fact the game wasted your time to encourage those purchases
Which of those inconveniences was not in the game at launch, when there was no Crown Store, though?There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. I rarely ever purchase Crowns in this game. It's about the predatory and exploitative, unethical tactics that they are using. No one can contest that they are using unethical tactics; it's undeniable. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.
I'm not enabling it by ignoring it. I'm not falling for it. They are not getting any crowns out of me other than what I get from the subscription.The Moot Councillor1 -
Celedayn✭✭✭Chips_Ahoy wrote: »There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.
what?
you are writing from a smartphone/pc that has components whose raw material is slave labor, and often child labor.
You're enabling horribly unethical behavior.
That's an absolutely ridiculous comparison, and you know it. To begin with, I'm not condoning or making excuses for that, which is why I said the other individual was enabling. Secondly, I'm not the one performing that unethical behavior, whereas ZOS is intentionally being unethical. We can both agree that child labor is unethical -- no one here is supporting it.Edited by Celedayn on September 18, 2021 1:53AM2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »
Saying its “pay for convenience” ignores the fact that ESO makes things inconvenient on purpose to encourage crown store purchases
Its the same thing as “time savers” ignoring the fact the game wasted your time to encourage those purchases
YUP.
The "wasted time" is actually what keeps the game going long term. You see for an MMO to survive they need to provide new content, they need players to repeat existing content and they need players participating in a variety of content.
Chapters and DLCs take care of the new content. Gear that is good for PvP that can be gained only in PvE content and skills good for PvE that can only be gained in PvP helps get players into a variety of content and RNG takes care of repeating content. To that end I don't think they should have started selling skyshards and things like that in the crown store. They aren't idiots though. They know how to price things low enough so the players that absolutely hate what they see as the grind will purchase the shards but price them high enough most will go ahead and play the game on each character. Good for the game and all players got to choose for themselves which way to go.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
Celedayn✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
Saying its “pay for convenience” ignores the fact that ESO makes things inconvenient on purpose to encourage crown store purchases
Its the same thing as “time savers” ignoring the fact the game wasted your time to encourage those purchases
Which of those inconveniences was not in the game at launch, when there was no Crown Store, though?There is nothing in the crown store that determines the outcome of the game. Nothing is being forced on any of us. When the game dropped requiring a subscription to play that revenue had to be generated through other means. That is why we have the crown store. It isn't predatory it is just there for your convenience. You are comparing ESO a game that has no monthly subscription to games that do have monthly subscriptions. If you are going to do that then you have to consider that all the DLCs in ESO come with the subscription. Essentially compared to the other games this is free content.
Crown crates are not gambling. You know the minimum number of items to expect from each crate just like packs of sports cards or any number of other things that do not fall under the definition of gambling. They can affect people with tendencies towards a gambling addiction just as actual gambling can but they are not gambling.
And there is no pay to win. There is pay for convenience. My crafting bag has never once kept me alive in Imperial City.
I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired that I'm not going to bother replying. You're wrong; they specifically hire people to prioritize the psychological manipulation of players to make them feel pressured/obligated into maximizing their spending.
Practice willpower then. You can ignore the crown store in this game far more than you can in GW2 or in BDO.
It's nothing about my own willpower. I rarely ever purchase Crowns in this game. It's about the predatory and exploitative, unethical tactics that they are using. No one can contest that they are using unethical tactics; it's undeniable. You're enabling horribly unethical behavior with that mindset.
I'm not enabling it by ignoring it. I'm not falling for it. They are not getting any crowns out of me other than what I get from the subscription.
That is your personal choice. The point is not about you, or me, it is about the unethical, psychologically manipulative tactics. Additionally, the items *are* overpriced, no matter how you look at it. This ranges from the expansions, to the DLCs, to the individual items. You're selectively ignoring the vast majority of my argument to peddle personal responsibility, which has nothing to do with it. So yes, you're enabling it.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If ZOS did the armor dyeing system today I am sure they would only let you have one slot for colours, sell vibrant crownstore exclusive colours and have you be able to unlock extra dye slots with for 500 crowns per armor piece per character.
I can understand that ZOS was in survival mode back when ESO had a rough start and they needed to take aggressive measures to keep the game afloat, like dropping the subscription model and going heavy into cosmetics instead. We are past that stage of struggle now. Rich said in one of his recent streams investing more money isn't going to solve many of the game's issues because you can't just hire more people to fix things as there can only be this many people working on the same thing together and hiring too many people can even be deterimental to the quality of a product. He is right.
But that begs the question why this game is trying to make all the money in the world?
Oh right capitalism and dividends and shareholders...
Let's hope the invisible hand of the free market fixes this!
Oh right, that would mean every addicted player would have to stop taking copium and leave, just like they did in WoW...
I don't want to see ESO struggling, but apparently that is the only thing that can make this game as great as it could be. And somehow you just know the first people to be layed off are the ones doing actual good work at ZOS.
Why can't we just have nice things anymore?
Why does there always have to be a someone taking a dump in my master chef's soup?This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.3 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If Imperials had the best racials in the game, the food from the store had the best stats, the potions had the best stats, soul gems and repair kits were expensive in game and hard to obtain, making the ones in the store mandatory, and homes of equal player occupancy not available for gold purchase, and crown for gold trading not being allowed, then yes, I would agree.
But not one of those things are true.Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭4) False-Scarcity. This is actually illegal for many retailers, but ESO gets away with it with no issue.
Since when?
I've been surrounded by "limited time offer", "limited time sale price", "only during this event", etc... in everything from games to retail, all my life. Nothing new here. Where is this illegal?2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1. Zenimax has given us the means to obtain some of them for free with minimal in-game activities via this new Endeavor system. Granted, the new system does not permit us to buy homes or lots of items but does give us the ability to purchase some of the shiniest mounts in the game.
Granted, I could care less about the crown store as it is so unimportant to the game. It is merely cosmetics that we really do not obtain, but pay to use for a short while.
3. FF14 and WoW release something maybe once a year if we are lucky. If their updates are not bigger than one in ESO then they have totally failed. So, yes, They should have larger updates.
Even then, the quality and cost of the updates in ESO are better than FF and WoW. Voicing alone adds a lot of polish but also cost. I will note that FF does do better than WoW.
4. Yes, I do not like crown crates, but then again I do not buy them. If players did not buy them Zenimax would have to find a different means. Ofc, this is everyone's choice and I respect that.
5. LTO is not the same as artificial scarcity. They merely are offering it for a limited time but as many players that want to purchase it can purchase it during that time.
The business reasoning is Zenimax is attempting to increase crown sales at full price. Everyone can plan ahead and buy crowns on sale to avoid this making it a virtual non-issue.
and no, I am not a fan of the crown store in this game or any other game. Heck, for various reasons I prefer MMORPGs that require a subscription but they are not as common these days.
0
This discussion has been closed.