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PvP finally going down the drain?

BalticBlues
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Is PvP going completely going down the drain lately?

PvP people are fed up about GETTING BOMBED.
PvP people are fed up about GETTING DARK CONVERGED.
PvP people are fed up not knowing if GEAR BONUS IS WORKING OR NOT.

ZOS, what are you doing to the game lately? Each patch brings new PvP grievances.
All of this feels more like WILD EXPERIMENTING instead of consolidating.
Do you know ANY serious game where every 3 month new rules turn the game upside down?
  • Amottica
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    So nothing has really changed.
  • Jameson18
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    Issues aren't just in PvP. It's a growing problem in all areas of the game.

    But yes, regardless of approach, you are not wrong.
  • SirLeeMinion
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    Is PvP going completely going down the drain lately?

    While I agree with the overall sentiment, I'd have to disagree with the "lately" part. The wild swings, ignoring PTS feedback, and release of OP things that get nerfed next quarter have been going on for quite some time - about three years as I think on it. With that long a track record, it is clearly intentional.

    On the bright side, I've noticed apparent TTK (my Time To realize I've been Killed) has increased with this patch! Just last night, I went through a keep door and was insta-popped by the usual culprits. BUT, I didn't know it for quite a while due to lag. So, that's good, right?

  • Jameson18
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    On the bright side, I've noticed apparent TTK (my Time To realize I've been Killed) has increased with this patch! Just last night, I went through a keep door and was insta-popped by the usual culprits. BUT, I didn't know it for quite a while due to lag. So, that's good, right?

    I see what you did there.
  • Veinblood1965
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    This is post 1,500,684 regarding PVP going downhill. You win the prize!
  • BalticBlues
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    This is post 1,500,684 regarding PVP going downhill. You win the prize!
    I play since beta -all classes and playstyles- and enjoyed it so far, even in the wildest phases.
    But lately balance is completely gone. Some playstyles even are eliminated.

    Especially playing Non-NB in Light Armor is impossible now
    with Bombers, Lancers and DarkConvergers left and right.

    ZOS, HELLO? Have YouTube Streamers finally taken control over PvP development?
    Because what you can play in PvP and what not narrows down patch by patch.

    Edited by BalticBlues on September 15, 2021 1:51PM
  • The_Lex
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    Lately?
  • BalticBlues
    BalticBlues
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    The_Lex wrote: »
    Lately?
    Yes lately.

    About three years ago, you could play successfully almost anything in Cyro.
    Then since about two years ago, you only can successfully play non-pet builds.
    Then since about one year ago, you only can successfully play Stamina builds (except bombers).
    And lately you mostly just meet Bombers, DarkConvergence, Hrothgar.

    I really liked PvP over the years. But lately PvP is becoming absurd.

    Edited by BalticBlues on September 17, 2021 3:55AM
  • Thoragaal
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    If one set stands out (like DC atm) most people will pick it up and it creates a complete polarization. For a period of time you'll see it a lot before it slowly drops off. And it drops off because many people realize it's not fun to use / it doesn't fit their playstyle / it's not effective for what they're trying to achieve etc etc.
    This cycle has happened several times in the past.

    I'm not saying it's pleasant or good, but, things will (in most cases) go back to "normal" after a while. Until a new "meta set" is released (the cycle starts again) or that people notice "it's too good to give up", in which case you have to wait for a nerf.
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    "I've always wanted to kick a duck up the arse" -Karl Pilkington, on the question what he'd do if it was the last day on earth.
  • Nerhesi
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    PvP has always been down the drain.

    You can’t have 1vX and healthy pvp. It is a clear indication that there is a hyper meta.

    People don’t mind meta, but they need counter meta, alternate builds and strategies, and they a need skill range that doesn’t just slap casuals in the face.

    I enjoy hyper sweaty dueling, I even support being able to 1V2 people, but being to consistently kite and survive and kill 1vX is laughable.

    Combine that with the fake-meaningful choices phenomen… so everyone Needs to be super bursts and sustain / mitigation is just silly.

    Until this game takes serious steps to actually create roles and different ways to kill people (not just cc-burst), pvp will always be a joke.

    It’s basically counterstrike where your health total resets in 3-4 seconds.
    Edited by Nerhesi on September 17, 2021 5:40PM
  • Gilvoth
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    Nerhesi wrote: »
    PvP has always been down the drain.

    You can’t have 1vX and healthy pvp. It is a clear indication that there is a hyper meta.

    People don’t mind meta, but they need counter meta, alternate builds and strategies, and they a need skill range that doesn’t just slap casuals in the face.

    I enjoy hyper sweaty dueling, I even support being able to 1V2 people, but being to consistently kite and survive and kill 1vX is laughable.

    Combine that with the fake-meaningful choices phenomen… so everyone Needs to be super bursts and sustain / mitigation is just silly.

    Until this game takes serious steps to actually create roles and different ways to kill people (not just cc-burst), pvp will always be a joke.

    It’s basically counterstrike where your health total resets in 3-4 seconds.

    so true.
    worded perfectly and so very well said.
  • woe
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    I find that the people who complain don't know what's happening or haven't played pvp for a long time
    uwu
  • Gilvoth
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    deflorate wrote: »
    I find that the people who complain don't know what's happening or haven't played pvp for a long time


    your assumption is wrong.

    i have been playing pvp daily in eso for over 8 years and started in the alpha stage in eso.
    daily for 8+ years.

    Edited by Gilvoth on September 17, 2021 9:58PM
  • Odovacar
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    Fengrush is awesome!!

    [snip]

    [Edited to remove Inappropriate Picture]
    Edited by Psiion on September 17, 2021 10:26PM
  • Thoragaal
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    Nerhesi wrote: »

    [...] People don’t mind meta, but they need counter meta, alternate builds and strategies [...].

    I agree.
    What got me fed up with pvp is that: I took my time to learn the meta so that I could figure out a counter to it. But by the time I had my own build ready, gotten used to it enough to enjoy it, the meta shifted and my build became useless.
    Playing became "work in progress" 90% of my time. It just wasn't fun. I didn't have time to enjoy my "work".

    They could create artificial "rock, paper, scissor" scenarios with gear (which they have "tried" several times), but the problem is that things rarely play out the way it's planned; what happens in reality is different from how it works in theory. Considering the homogenization of classes, which is the complete opposite of "rock, paper, scissors" scenarios, I find this solution highly imporobable considering their current goals.

    Unfortunately I don't see any other solution than for ZOS to stop changing everything all the time.
    However, I firmly believe they are trying to create incentives for people to buy their latest products, so I don't think they're willing to do this either.
    Edited by Thoragaal on September 18, 2021 5:02AM
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    "I've always wanted to kick a duck up the arse" -Karl Pilkington, on the question what he'd do if it was the last day on earth.
  • moo_2021
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    About three years ago, you could play successfully almost anything in Cyro.
    Then since about two years ago, you only can successfully play non-pet builds.
    Then since about one year ago, you only can successfully play Stamina builds (except bombers).
    And lately you mostly just meet Bombers, DarkConvergence, Hrothgar.

    What were the biggest or worst changes before the latest proc sets?

    I checked some pvp builds on alcasthq and they feel really weird - nobody would run anything like those today.
  • UntilValhalla13
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    They did say that they're tweaking dark convergence on the stream, for what that's worth.
  • Karm1cOne
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    They did say that they're tweaking dark convergence on the stream, for what that's worth.

    That's not really the issue. The issue is, how did dark conversion even make it past the drawing board? Everyone who saw this set realized it was a mistake, except ZOS.
  • fred4
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    ZOS, HELLO? Have YouTube Streamers finally taken control over PvP development?
    Well, one YouTube streamer. Gilliam the Rogue.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • fred4
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    moo_2021 wrote: »
    About three years ago, you could play successfully almost anything in Cyro.
    Then since about two years ago, you only can successfully play non-pet builds.
    Then since about one year ago, you only can successfully play Stamina builds (except bombers).
    And lately you mostly just meet Bombers, DarkConvergence, Hrothgar.

    What were the biggest or worst changes before the latest proc sets?

    I checked some pvp builds on alcasthq and they feel really weird - nobody would run anything like those today.
    Alcast. <cough>
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • fred4
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    Thoragaal wrote: »
    Considering the homogenization of classes.
    I have no idea why they are so hell-bent on "play as you want". A class is a class. They would have to turn this game into New World - only weapon skills, no classes - for you to experience everything on a single character. The magicka / stamina divide added variety. Next thing they'll give Streak and Cloak to every class. Noooo.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • fred4
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    Nerhesi wrote: »
    You can’t have 1vX and healthy pvp. It is a clear indication that there is a hyper meta.
    I disagree. I agree in so far as the hyper meta may be a specific, tanky stamden or stamcro build, stronger than other classes. On the other hand look at chess. A game that is perfectly balanced, but that has a high skill ceiling. You get the same effect. You get 1v20 in chess. A grandmaster will simultaneously play 20 lesser-rated players and the expectation is that those lesser players lose. If you draw, that's an achievement. I have no issues with a game that features 1vX due to a high skill-ceiling. In fact, I think that's an indication of a good game, a game that may be worth sinking your teeth into and that has staying power. Whether that's what ZOS would ever shoot for ... I doubt it. Their avowed aim has been to lower the skill gap. They aim to provide new cheap thrills for a more casual audience every patch.
    Edited by fred4 on September 20, 2021 7:49AM
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • ZeroDPS
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    Is PvP going completely going down the drain lately?

    PvP people are fed up about GETTING BOMBED.
    PvP people are fed up about GETTING DARK CONVERGED.
    PvP people are fed up not knowing if GEAR BONUS IS WORKING OR NOT.

    ZOS, what are you doing to the game lately? Each patch brings new PvP grievances.
    All of this feels more like WILD EXPERIMENTING instead of consolidating.
    Do you know ANY serious game where every 3 month new rules turn the game upside down?

    agree
  • The_Lex
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    Great video on the subject:

    https://youtu.be/RteYjUeMbzI
  • Fazuszek
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Nerhesi wrote: »
    You can’t have 1vX and healthy pvp. It is a clear indication that there is a hyper meta.
    On the other hand look at chess.

    Bruh.

    Did u just compared chess to ESO PVP?...
  • The_Lex
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    Fazuszek wrote: »
    The_Lex wrote: »
    Great video on the subject:

    https://youtu.be/RteYjUeMbzI

    [snip]

    Honest question…what does one thing have to do with another?

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 20, 2021 3:12PM
  • Strider__Roshin
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    Lol OP said "finally" implying it isn't already there.
  • Strider__Roshin
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    Jameson18 wrote: »
    Issues aren't just in PvP. It's a growing problem in all areas of the game.

    But yes, regardless of approach, you are not wrong.

    I think the combat has been bad for a while now. Used to be a ton of fun back in the day.
  • BalticBlues
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    One more of the very best ESO players says RIP PVP.

    "The Ultimate Desaster when it comes to balancing"
    starting at 6:00, about Hrothgar at 7:10, result at 8:40:
    "Sets like Hrothgar have no counter [...] all skill is eliminated from the game"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSXfVPel38I
    Edited by BalticBlues on September 20, 2021 6:27PM
  • fred4
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    Fazuszek wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Nerhesi wrote: »
    You can’t have 1vX and healthy pvp. It is a clear indication that there is a hyper meta.
    On the other hand look at chess.

    Bruh.

    Did u just compared chess to ESO PVP?...
    I was making the point that 1vXs can happen for two entirely different reasons:
    1. Power imbalances between the toons involved.
    2. Player skill imbalances.
    This was in response to the assertion that you can't have 1vX and healthy PvP. I disagree. You can. Why? Because (A) 1vX is not necessarily a sign of an unbalanced game. There is quite a bit of skill involved in PvP. I'd argue that's actually the largest factor in 1vXs (and the only factor in chess).

    (B) you can look at 1vX in two different ways. As an overpowered player that bullies others, if he wins, or as a player that got zerged down, if he loses. A 1vX is also an Xv1. It's just a matter of perspective. If you accept that you zerging is OK while you're still learning the game, I don't really see anything wrong or unhealthy about 1vX / Xv1. In competitive sports people fight in different weight classes, leagues or against similarly rated players in chess. In BGs we have match making rankings. In open world the mechanism that compensates for imbalances is zerging.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
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