The Rules of DPS Club

Bjond

If you want to join DPS Club in veteran content, there are a few simple rules:

1. Wait for the tank
2. Wait for the tank
3. If someone taps out, raise them
4. Mechs before DPS

There are probably more, but since I've started running my tank, the absolute top peeve has got to be charging DPS. You're not speeding things up. You're not showing off. It's not "OK because I can handle it" (there are others in the group). You're behaving like a complete waste of a group slot. If the tank is paused before a fight, they're picking out which things to taunt out of the herd. If you charge, there's not going to be ANY taunt, because you just moved everything off target.

Oh, and your pet "Jeff" is not cool, especially in BC2. Keep infernal maw for solo. I won't put up a kick or drop group for using maw the way I will for charging, but you are annoying the tank for no good reason.

FluffWit

The dps who think it's their job to start the fight can be infuriating.

Not rezzing each other.... I think they just get in their own little world and don't even notice when teammates die sometimes.

SeaGtGruff

FluffWit wrote: »

I think they just get in their own little world

Yeah, don't we all! But tanks and healers are expected to pay attention to what's happening to the rest of the group and take appropriate action as needed, and can be vote-kicked if the group thinks they aren't measuring up, so it seems only fair-- in a "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" way-- that DDs be held to the same standards of group-mindfulness.

ShawnLaRock

Face-Palm DPS that run ahead - spreading adds the entire way down a corridor - and then spend WAY MORE time having to clean them all up running amok & stuck in terrain - than just easily burning mobs as you go - b/c you can’t go through a door to the next portion of the dungeon. And then they cry in group chat. Oof.

S.

Amottica

When tanking I have offered to leave a group when a player rushes ahead. The others end up vote kicking them. If I am healing I will slow down enough so they get in trouble.

As for gear, that is life and the maw set will happen. If the player is doing decent then I think complaining about their choice of gear is the last thing to be concerned with. While the maw set can be annoying but we just have to adjust to get them out of the way.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Bjond wrote: »

If you want to join DPS Club in veteran content, there are a few simple rules:

1. Wait for the tank
2. Wait for the tank
3. If someone taps out, raise them
4. Mechs before DPS

Let me add - any GOOD tank will group mobs/adds and the run will go even faster than the DPS/Fake Healer running all over the room killing things 1 at a time.

Even in Random Normals.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Amottica wrote: »

When tanking I have offered to leave a group when a player rushes ahead. The others end up vote kicking them. If I am healing I will slow down enough so they get in trouble.

As for gear, that is life and the maw set will happen. If the player is doing decent then I think complaining about their choice of gear is the last thing to be concerned with. While the maw set can be annoying but we just have to adjust to get them out of the way.

Complaining about Maw is valid in BC2. It's hard enough on the tank holding 6-8 Daedroth because group DPS is low, but with 3 DPS wearing Maw (remember, the healer is fake) now you have to determine WHICH daedroth to taunt, and how do you get the 3 ENEMY daedroth away from the Maw's? Because ofc the DPS aren't directing their pets...

Just don't wear Maw of the Infernal in BC2 on HM. Just don't.

kargen27

Stay between tank and healer.

Alphawolf01A

And thanks to the Heavy Armor negative passives reducing sprint speed and increasing sprint cost, chasing after speed running DPSers only to arrive to the fight they've already started with no Stam since it was all spent trying to catch up to them.

Grandchamp1989

Bjond wrote: »

If you want to join DPS Club in veteran content, there are a few simple rules:

1. Wait for the tank
2. Wait for the tank
3. If someone taps out, raise them
4. Mechs before DPS

There are probably more, but since I've started running my tank, the absolute top peeve has got to be charging DPS. You're not speeding things up. You're not showing off. It's not "OK because I can handle it" (there are others in the group). You're behaving like a complete waste of a group slot. If the tank is paused before a fight, they're picking out which things to taunt out of the herd. If you charge, there's not going to be ANY taunt, because you just moved everything off target.

Oh, and your pet "Jeff" is not cool, especially in BC2. Keep infernal maw for solo. I won't put up a kick or drop group for using maw the way I will for charging, but you are annoying the tank for no good reason.

Im not sure what it is… but in my observation (however subjective that may be) I noted a huge change in player behavior with the release of Greymoor.

People started to act more… for lack of a better word, selfish?

-Que vet DLC with 10kdps
-Sprint ahead of the group and pull
-No hi or thx for run
-fake roles en mass
-even real roles scraping by barely doing the minimum standards - like inner rage tank with no source of breach, or healer who Will only use regen and nothing else (not even an orb for ressources).

I can only really summarize it as a “low effort”. More often than not, even the lowest of bars are not being met..

Again, could be my observation that is off..

Ippokrates

Bjond wrote: »

[*] If someone taps out, raise them

I would say, if healer tap out, raise them. Otherwise focus on dps, because sooner you will eliminate enemies, the less problematic fight would be

Bjond

I would say, if healer tap out, raise them. Otherwise focus on dps, because sooner you will eliminate enemies, the less problematic fight would be

Ah, the reason I elevated this one to a primary role for DPS is because when the DPS does it, it works for every fight in game. Healer can keep rez'er & tank up. Fight progresses, just a bit slower. If healer does it, healing stops. Sometimes this is just fine, but sometimes not, too. More DPS isn't always a good thing when the fight is too hard for one of the team (can phase boss, bring in more adds , new/meaner mechs, etc).

The big exception to all the rules is for a fully experienced team. When everyone knows the mechs and knows all 3 roles in game, then you hit those nice high-synergy groups where everyone conspires together to get done what needs doing and strict who-does-what no longer matters.

RaikaNA

FluffWit wrote: »

The dps who think it's their job to start the fight can be infuriating.

Not rezzing each other.... I think they just get in their own little world and don't even notice when teammates die sometimes.

Looking at combat metrics and checking their parse seems vastly more important than rezzing the dead. I guess.

mocap

Base game vet? Meh... Until PUG group melts mobs and bosses i don't care who rush ahead. I even made my own, like ZOS called em "bruiser-tank" in last patch notes (Inner Beast skill details), just to do damage (30-35k) and tank at the same time and even heal others via Matriarch.

Now DLC vets + HM are waaaay different story. And this is a real DPS club.

Adremal

The amount of sweeping generalizations in this topic is literally toxic. If things were actually how some described them, the overwhelming majority of pugs would simply fail - and that doesn't mirror reality. I almost always PUG pledges on alts (of every role), and a PUG will see a member dropped maybe once in ten times, with a full fail happening very rarely and only on DLC dungeons.
That being said, to address some of the points without quotes and in no particular order:

• Some DPS do rush ahead without grouping mobs properly by LoS of what have you, but so do some tanks. Likewise some tanks are just too slow and/or fail to round up mobs properly. In this case people follow the rushing/tanking DPS, don't kick him. Never happened to me, ever.
• As a DPS I always resurrect downed teammates if I'm near them and the healer is busy - if the healer is not busy, which is the case in most non-DLC content, I'd rather have the healer do the job to speed things up. As a healer, I rush to resurrect people in most non-DLC content because I'd rather the DPS keep pumping out damage than... standing still watching my overheals ticking I guess? Even as a tank, if I get the chance to resurrect someone, such as when there's nothing to interrupt me or nothing to pick up, I'll do so (or if I'm running a necro on non-DLC content I'll just insta-ress because it's a funny ultimate, both as a tank and as a DPS, in the latter case the more dead players the better ).
• The Maw can be annoying - almost exclusively visually. It's just marginally more annoying than any other pet due to the size. Just adjust the camera and use proper addons to see what's what if you find yourself trying to taunt a pet. Besides, it can be very easily be directed to attack a specific target, and cleaves for significantly less damage than other monster sets/skills. In BC II it just so happens to look like one of the adds (and by the by, HM only requires 3 adds to be alive - I've had a struggling "tank" (those exist too, not just fake healers) complain because he was tanking 4-5 of them and I burned one down - he even hurled insults my way when the fight was over despite the HM having been completed because "I said don't touch adds can't you read <expletives>?" Just to add to the anecdotes.
• By this time you're probably assuming I always rush ahead and tank bosses myself or some such - I don't. I'm the kind of person who's willing to sit through wipes and explain the mechanics to newbies and even wait for them to listen to the stories if they're doing the quest. I ask beforehand.

Morale: follow Blake's advice. Do not generalize. Realize that we're more likely to register negative events and realize that they're most likely the minority of them (they most certainly are as far as my experience goes), and realize they're not always unsalvageable - it's actually very rewarding to get a newbie to thank you for taking time to explain the mechanics (regardless of the fact that yes, it would be very wise for people to look them up beforehand, preferably with videos because some of them are difficult to put into words - but some just won't do it and we can either accept it and teach them, or insta-kick them and they'll remain the same, irritating other PUGs in a vicious circle) or better his gameplay at the end of a PUG run.

VaranisArano

Every time people say "Use an addon to fix your problem," I think, "Tell me you're a PC player without telling me you are a PC player "

If you wear Maw to the only fight in the game where "how many daedroths are active" is the main mechanic, you make the tank's job harder every time your set adds a daedroth, whether they have addons or not. You are making a choice that means your tank has to reassess the situation every time your set procs to determine if they need to taunt that daedroth.

Its considerate to think about using a different monster set for BC2 fight. Optimizing your build for efficient play doesn't always mean chasing the highest DPS parse. Sometimes, it means choosing sets that work better in a particular fight over one's that make your group mate's job harder.

gamerguy757

ARROW SPRAY IS NOT DPS!!!!

LashanW

Maw isn't even that good anymore, 2 different crit pieces will do way more dmg while not causing any visual issues to the group. Using maw in dungeons is nothing but being inconsiderate of the group (especially tank).

etchedpixels

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Im not sure what it is… but in my observation (however subjective that may be) I noted a huge change in player behavior with the release of Greymoor.

A lot of it is the random dungeon transmute crystal reward system that went live in U28. Now everyone is trying to farm transmute crystals and a lot of people who would do vet or just solo content normally are smashing through normal content and even those who are not anti-social are unintentionally ruining it for everyone else.

It's now "how fast can I run 9-18 random dungeons for crystals" coupled with "oh got a DLC, quicker to take the penalty, quit" and other such problems.

ZoS just need to fix the transmute rewards

Bjond

Adremal wrote: »

teach them, or insta-kick them and they'll remain the same, irritating other PUGs in a vicious circle) or better his gameplay at the end of a PUG run.

This is a bit of a segue from a couple funny general rules for DPS to follow that ensure they're behaving as minimally helpful team players. And, besides, "we don't tank about DPS club" (cuz if you're tanking, you're charging .. ).

So, to address your own generalized assumptions: newbies aren't a problem. I've quite literally NEVER seen a charging newbie. It's the ones with (usually) CP 600~1200 that hit the ground running without waiting.

IMHO, Normal Dungeons are the culprit. Normals should be the spot where new players learn mechs, tactics, and even basic manners for group play. Normals are FAR too easy: mechs & tactics are optional. You don't even need a tank. After 2 or 3 normals on my tank, I gave up on 'em and only take my tank to vets. So, what normals teach? To play like a school of rabid piranhas.

I think the fix would be pretty easy, but only ZOS could do it: any mech that would kill in vet or come close, should just KD you for 10s (minimum) in normal. Lying flat on your back in a normal for 10~20s while your team runs about on top of you thinking "this guy is bad at mechs" would go a long way toward making them meaningful enough to learn in a normal. Even overland should do it, though perhaps tone it to 2~5s there.

[Edit to remove bait]

MEBengalsFan2001

I let them run ahead and wait until they die from whatever they were fighting. Than I state, wait for your tank. Usually that works and if not I leave.

The fake healer and fake tanks I see is why I stopped running vet dungeons all together. It became annoying and time wasteful as these so called beast dps aren’t that good without all the buffs typically received during a trial. This is why I find a balance group of tank, healer and two dps work best in vet dungeons. You get the appropriate buffs and debuff.

The other issue is that I see plenty of pvp players going into vets as whatever role and normally it’s a tank or healer and they are usually first to complain someone not doing their role, typically it’s their fault.

Adremal

Bjond wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

The amount of sweeping generalizations in this topic is literally toxic.

That's awfully defensive for a reply to humorous commentary not directed at you or anyone else in specific.

[snip]

Bjond wrote: »

So, to address your own generalized assumptions: newbies aren't a problem. I've quite literally NEVER seen a charging newbie. It's the ones with (usually) CP 600~1200 that hit the ground running without waiting.

(snip)

[snip] One can have 1500 CPs and never have set foot in a given dungeon. Or have 2000 CPs and being at his first tanking attempt. Those are newbies, not the ones with low CPs. The fact that normals teach nothing has never been questioned, if anything they teach people how to play the game wrong, on that much we can agree on.

[edited for baiting]

Andre_Noir

LashanW wrote: »

Maw isn't even that good anymore, 2 different crit pieces will do way more dmg while not causing any visual issues to the group. Using maw in dungeons is nothing but being inconsiderate of the group (especially tank).

It's still the best AoE set for dungeons, mainly for classic dungeons where a lot of trash mobs. It's clear that you are the one of those toxic dummy-lovers that try mentor everyone everywhere

Bjond wrote: »

So, what normals teach?

Normals teach that high CP folks that came there just for nobrain run are toxic as it only can be. Did you ever let a low-cp (or even no-cp) guy to tank normal dungeon ? Or may be you just trample everything without letting FG's buff wore off ?

SidraWillowsky

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Bjond wrote: »

If you want to join DPS Club in veteran content, there are a few simple rules:

1. Wait for the tank
2. Wait for the tank
3. If someone taps out, raise them
4. Mechs before DPS

There are probably more, but since I've started running my tank, the absolute top peeve has got to be charging DPS. You're not speeding things up. You're not showing off. It's not "OK because I can handle it" (there are others in the group). You're behaving like a complete waste of a group slot. If the tank is paused before a fight, they're picking out which things to taunt out of the herd. If you charge, there's not going to be ANY taunt, because you just moved everything off target.

Oh, and your pet "Jeff" is not cool, especially in BC2. Keep infernal maw for solo. I won't put up a kick or drop group for using maw the way I will for charging, but you are annoying the tank for no good reason.

Im not sure what it is… but in my observation (however subjective that may be) I noted a huge change in player behavior with the release of Greymoor.

People started to act more… for lack of a better word, selfish?

-Que vet DLC with 10kdps
-Sprint ahead of the group and pull
-No hi or thx for run
-fake roles en mass
-even real roles scraping by barely doing the minimum standards - like inner rage tank with no source of breach, or healer who Will only use regen and nothing else (not even an orb for ressources).

I can only really summarize it as a “low effort”. More often than not, even the lowest of bars are not being met..

Again, could be my observation that is off..

Nope, your observations are spot-on. Player behavior in pug groups is absolutely maddening. Fake tanks used to be rare, but these days I'm lucky if I ever get a real tank. No one talks unless they need gear, and I've noticed DPS doing this cool thing where they sprint ahead and try to pull every mob to the boss and then pull the boss as well. Of course that player is dead by the time the rest of the group reaches them...

It's rude. It's demoralizing. I miss the fun pug runs of years back where people were actually friendly. I don't know if it's because DPS is through the roof and vet dungeons seem much easier and require less coordination or what, but I used to have a lot of fun in a struggling pug group. With the right combination of people, we learned to work together and could laugh about our wipes and then celebrate together in the end. I haven't had that since... well, I guess when they increased the number of xmutes that you get for running a daily random.

Gaebriel0410

I think people saying at least hi at the start of a dungeon, should get in fashion again. That first hi is very important, since it's an immediate reminder that you're playing with other people who are also seeking to complete the same dungeon.

This counts double when it's your first time in a dungeon, I'd say always mention that so people know they can't expect you to know its mechanics. Of course the same rules apply to veteran players too, and it's a small effort to say you ran it before, or that you're able to explain mechanics if needed.

And that first important hi can also serve as an icebreaker if the group runs into trouble later on, since people are more inclined to help each other when conversation has already been initiated before. And sure there's always gonna be players who don't respond to anything and look to be running around with their eyes closed, but that shouldn't deter from at least trying.

The run might take a few minutes longer, but it's probably a better experience for everyone, and you might even make new friends!

Jeirno

4. Why do mechs if you can just skip them with good DPS? Me parse, me monkey, big dps.

everything else I agree with wholeheartedly.

Vevvev

Don't use Blood Frenzy or Blood for Blood if you can't reliably use them. Met a few dead DPS because of that, and while you can get away with them as a healer, you cannot as a DPS without sacrificing your ability to do more DPS. Especially Blood for Blood with it's 5 second healing from others lockout.

Nagastani

Good DPS can wait. Bad DPS never waits.

Grandchamp1989

Nagastani wrote: »

Good DPS can wait. Bad DPS never waits.

I have noticed this too..

People who compete for DPS numbers always has to get a head start by being the first one to damage the mobs.

"I do 80% of the damage bro"

Yes, because you rush ahead of everyone, and by the time we get to the mobs only a few skeletons remain. Good job competing with yourself.... Let the tank pull and attack with the team, that's the proper thing to do.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

I think people saying at least hi at the start of a dungeon, should get in fashion again. That first hi is very important, since it's an immediate reminder that you're playing with other people who are also seeking to complete the same dungeon.

This counts double when it's your first time in a dungeon, I'd say always mention that so people know they can't expect you to know its mechanics. Of course the same rules apply to veteran players too, and it's a small effort to say you ran it before, or that you're able to explain mechanics if needed.

And that first important hi can also serve as an icebreaker if the group runs into trouble later on, since people are more inclined to help each other when conversation has already been initiated before. And sure there's always gonna be players who don't respond to anything and look to be running around with their eyes closed, but that shouldn't deter from at least trying.

The run might take a few minutes longer, but it's probably a better experience for everyone, and you might even make new friends!

This is a really good point. I always try to say hi, and if it's a dungeon where mechs are important/unskippable I ask if everyone knows the dungeon. If you don't, just say "um, it's been a while" and I'm happy to type out instructions. After 7 years tanking I'm pretty good with "how to do this boss in 2 sentences or less".

Also, don't queue for any vet dungeon with less than 10k DPS please. Can't pass a DPS check without the required DPS.

MEBengalsFan2001

Jeirno wrote: »

4. Why do mechs if you can just skip them with good DPS? Me parse, me monkey, big dps.

everything else I agree with wholeheartedly.

I played with players with this mentality, in this game and other MMOs. Usually I end up making my DPS play as another role by swapping one or two abilities just to help the group out. For instance, lack of heals, buff/debuff, etc... usually I do less damage but it makes the run smoother due to more buffs/debuffs.