Ballgroups cheating ?, a view from inside

DrSlaughtr

Einstein_ wrote: »

Sorry but you're wrong. Any ball group worth their salt effectively exploits both issues to the point where there's very little that can be done.

the smale group always suffers more from lagg then a larger group. it doesnt matter if in a 10v40 5 ppl of the 40 getting desynced. the bigger group has the "map control" and can just pick their ppl up and they are fine again. but if 3 ppl getting desynct of the 10 man group they lost 1/3 of the group and that will most likly lead to their wipe.

I can tell you that our raids are alway better when we have less lagg.

And no, a 12 man doesn't need every skill going off perfectly because it's about blanketing the field with attacks and hots. Even if only half of them land you're still out gunning everyone around you who are suffering the same lag your ball group brought into a battle, except it's worse because your opponents are not stacking the same 3 skills over and over.

same argument can be made for the 40 man stack...they will always have more casts per second then a 10 man group.
The point is that its cordinated vs uncordinated.

i will tell you a Big Big secret how to kill a ballgroup.

1 Bomber with harmony and a Temp with nova and Dark convergenz+ any buff set. That perfectly timed is ez 40k dmg in 1s

do we ever see such attmepts to kill us ?, NO/rearly...ppl keep spaming LAs on us and wondering why we dont die.

#Optimized groups are NOT OP, others just.....

Any other group isn't assigning a 2 to 3 skill rotation to every member. It's called stacking. If you have 5 people drop a destro ulti and only 3 go off on time you still murdered everyone in front of you. Those other two are still firing, just a little behind. Also a ball group trying to complain about the lag they themselves create is a little silly. If it's so crippling why do it?

Meanwhile a normal group of players have full bar rotations. If any of those gets tripped up by lag, they're dead or at the very least not able to help kill the targets. Oh, you wanna ulti dump that ball group? That's great until the sorc lags out on casting the negate and you just eat every attack that hits you.

Ball groupies would do better by not pretending like they don't exploit the game limitations.

Also relying on bombers to kill any 12 man group, ball or otherwise, has caused a lot of animosity for nightblades and led to these new TTK changes that have made ball groups harder to kill. These new sets aren't doing jack.

neferpitou73

Can we put the ball groups cause lag myth to bed already? ZOS did those stupid AOE tests a while back that showed reducing AOE spam didn't improve the performance. If ball groups are the ones causing lag it's because of some flaw in the grouping mechanism (which given their previous track record with that I wouldn't say is out of the question) not because of their tactics.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Sorry but you're wrong. Any ball group worth their salt effectively exploits both issues to the point where there's very little that can be done.

the smale group always suffers more from lagg then a larger group. it doesnt matter if in a 10v40 5 ppl of the 40 getting desynced. the bigger group has the "map control" and can just pick their ppl up and they are fine again. but if 3 ppl getting desynct of the 10 man group they lost 1/3 of the group and that will most likly lead to their wipe.

I can tell you that our raids are alway better when we have less lagg.

And no, a 12 man doesn't need every skill going off perfectly because it's about blanketing the field with attacks and hots. Even if only half of them land you're still out gunning everyone around you who are suffering the same lag your ball group brought into a battle, except it's worse because your opponents are not stacking the same 3 skills over and over.

same argument can be made for the 40 man stack...they will always have more casts per second then a 10 man group.
The point is that its cordinated vs uncordinated.

i will tell you a Big Big secret how to kill a ballgroup.

1 Bomber with harmony and a Temp with nova and Dark convergenz+ any buff set. That perfectly timed is ez 40k dmg in 1s

do we ever see such attmepts to kill us ?, NO/rearly...ppl keep spaming LAs on us and wondering why we dont die.

#Optimized groups are NOT OP, others just.....

Any other group isn't assigning a 2 to 3 skill rotation to every member. It's called stacking. If you have 5 people drop a destro ulti and only 3 go off on time you still murdered everyone in front of you. Those other two are still firing, just a little behind. Also a ball group trying to complain about the lag they themselves create is a little silly. If it's so crippling why do it?

Meanwhile a normal group of players have full bar rotations. If any of those gets tripped up by lag, they're dead or at the very least not able to help kill the targets. Oh, you wanna ulti dump that ball group? That's great until the sorc lags out on casting the negate and you just eat every attack that hits you.

Ball groupies would do better by not pretending like they don't exploit the game limitations.

Also relying on bombers to kill any 12 man group, ball or otherwise, has caused a lot of animosity for nightblades and led to these new TTK changes that have made ball groups harder to kill. These new sets aren't doing jack.

Yep totally don't have a two-bar rotation on my healer or bomber at all I just spam one button until everything dies /S

DrSlaughtr

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Can we put the ball groups cause lag myth to bed already? ZOS did those stupid AOE tests a while back that showed reducing AOE spam didn't improve the performance. If ball groups are the ones causing lag it's because of some flaw in the grouping mechanism (which given their previous track record with that I wouldn't say is out of the question) not because of their tactics.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Sorry but you're wrong. Any ball group worth their salt effectively exploits both issues to the point where there's very little that can be done.

the smale group always suffers more from lagg then a larger group. it doesnt matter if in a 10v40 5 ppl of the 40 getting desynced. the bigger group has the "map control" and can just pick their ppl up and they are fine again. but if 3 ppl getting desynct of the 10 man group they lost 1/3 of the group and that will most likly lead to their wipe.

I can tell you that our raids are alway better when we have less lagg.

And no, a 12 man doesn't need every skill going off perfectly because it's about blanketing the field with attacks and hots. Even if only half of them land you're still out gunning everyone around you who are suffering the same lag your ball group brought into a battle, except it's worse because your opponents are not stacking the same 3 skills over and over.

same argument can be made for the 40 man stack...they will always have more casts per second then a 10 man group.
The point is that its cordinated vs uncordinated.

i will tell you a Big Big secret how to kill a ballgroup.

1 Bomber with harmony and a Temp with nova and Dark convergenz+ any buff set. That perfectly timed is ez 40k dmg in 1s

do we ever see such attmepts to kill us ?, NO/rearly...ppl keep spaming LAs on us and wondering why we dont die.

#Optimized groups are NOT OP, others just.....

Any other group isn't assigning a 2 to 3 skill rotation to every member. It's called stacking. If you have 5 people drop a destro ulti and only 3 go off on time you still murdered everyone in front of you. Those other two are still firing, just a little behind. Also a ball group trying to complain about the lag they themselves create is a little silly. If it's so crippling why do it?

Meanwhile a normal group of players have full bar rotations. If any of those gets tripped up by lag, they're dead or at the very least not able to help kill the targets. Oh, you wanna ulti dump that ball group? That's great until the sorc lags out on casting the negate and you just eat every attack that hits you.

Ball groupies would do better by not pretending like they don't exploit the game limitations.

Also relying on bombers to kill any 12 man group, ball or otherwise, has caused a lot of animosity for nightblades and led to these new TTK changes that have made ball groups harder to kill. These new sets aren't doing jack.

Yep totally don't have a two-bar rotation on my healer or bomber at all I just spam one button until everything dies /S

It's not a myth. You can have 50 people battling in a keep with no issue then all of a sudden a ball group rolls in and everything goes to ***. It happens all the time. The AOE tests didn't do jack because it was a poorly thought out test. They also overlapped the tests to where some of them too place during an event and the other phases didn't.

Sanctum74

TheEndBringer wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Can we put the ball groups cause lag myth to bed already? ZOS did those stupid AOE tests a while back that showed reducing AOE spam didn't improve the performance. If ball groups are the ones causing lag it's because of some flaw in the grouping mechanism (which given their previous track record with that I wouldn't say is out of the question) not because of their tactics.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Sorry but you're wrong. Any ball group worth their salt effectively exploits both issues to the point where there's very little that can be done.

the smale group always suffers more from lagg then a larger group. it doesnt matter if in a 10v40 5 ppl of the 40 getting desynced. the bigger group has the "map control" and can just pick their ppl up and they are fine again. but if 3 ppl getting desynct of the 10 man group they lost 1/3 of the group and that will most likly lead to their wipe.

I can tell you that our raids are alway better when we have less lagg.

And no, a 12 man doesn't need every skill going off perfectly because it's about blanketing the field with attacks and hots. Even if only half of them land you're still out gunning everyone around you who are suffering the same lag your ball group brought into a battle, except it's worse because your opponents are not stacking the same 3 skills over and over.

same argument can be made for the 40 man stack...they will always have more casts per second then a 10 man group.
The point is that its cordinated vs uncordinated.

i will tell you a Big Big secret how to kill a ballgroup.

1 Bomber with harmony and a Temp with nova and Dark convergenz+ any buff set. That perfectly timed is ez 40k dmg in 1s

do we ever see such attmepts to kill us ?, NO/rearly...ppl keep spaming LAs on us and wondering why we dont die.

#Optimized groups are NOT OP, others just.....

Any other group isn't assigning a 2 to 3 skill rotation to every member. It's called stacking. If you have 5 people drop a destro ulti and only 3 go off on time you still murdered everyone in front of you. Those other two are still firing, just a little behind. Also a ball group trying to complain about the lag they themselves create is a little silly. If it's so crippling why do it?

Meanwhile a normal group of players have full bar rotations. If any of those gets tripped up by lag, they're dead or at the very least not able to help kill the targets. Oh, you wanna ulti dump that ball group? That's great until the sorc lags out on casting the negate and you just eat every attack that hits you.

Ball groupies would do better by not pretending like they don't exploit the game limitations.

Also relying on bombers to kill any 12 man group, ball or otherwise, has caused a lot of animosity for nightblades and led to these new TTK changes that have made ball groups harder to kill. These new sets aren't doing jack.

Yep totally don't have a two-bar rotation on my healer or bomber at all I just spam one button until everything dies /S

It's not a myth. You can have 50 people battling in a keep with no issue then all of a sudden a ball group rolls in and everything goes to ***. It happens all the time. The AOE tests didn't do jack because it was a poorly thought out test. They also overlapped the tests to where some of them too place during an event and the other phases didn't.

If it happens all the time then you should have no problem providing videos of these lagless 50 player battles that magically turn to poop when 8 players from a ball group show up[snip]

[edited for baiting]

kindred

Zos has chased off most of the ballgroups now. We've all left for New World

DucLIX

I wasn’t hoping more from the answers on my post, still the same again and again an md again, keep trying to prove that ballgroups are exploiters or cheaters or whatever you want, fact is:
You don’t wan’t understand simple logic because that logic means you have to put efforts in gameplays, so you keep repeating same things over & over, just play and let people play.

You don’t want to put efforts in? Don’t blame people that are actually doing so. Not our problem, it’s not gonna stop is to enjoy cyro and our raids. (When it works ofc 🥸)

And one last point:
Complaining about ballgroups nowadays is kind of funny, back in the days it was « legitimate » I’d say. When ballgroups could run for more than one hour on top of keeps chased by an undecreasing amount of players with very limited tools to counter them. Just check my old videos or Zerg Squad ones or other old groups.

For us (faster) it’s not the case anymore except in some rare situations, idk for Drac ( @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO ) and Nova ( @Einstein_ ) ? But these type of fights are not as long as it could have been before.

Why? Simply because over years players have been given a significant amount of tools to beat ballgroups, some that have been uses by groups too and some not. And now that you can see significants changes on the game that decreased the ballgroups life duration in fights, and even more tools to bother/kill us, people are complaining way more than before.

Ballgroups can be strong, but not invicible and more vulnerable than before, players can manage easily too kill them whatever the manner. It’s just a little more dedication and fight analysis to be done.

Anyway, I know exactly what kind of answers it will get, so have fun, be happy and see you in Cyro.

DracoKaiser

No matter how you legitimately want it, they will all never understand what a hassle it is to play like this.

umagon

From my observations the tools to impact organized groups are in the game now just underutilized. With plaguebreak being added purging has increased consequences for just spamming it nonstop. Groups responded by increasing their healing output and reducing the usage of purge.

Instead of players keeping the threat of plaguebreak in the playfield they stop using it and now some of those groups have more freedom to use purge. When the proper response would have been to utilize more of the sets that reduce both normal healing output, lower critical healing frequency, or have healing absorption; while keeping the pressure of plaguebreak in the playfield.

I find there is still a large tendency for players to come to large objective encounters in one vs one loadouts, that have little or no wide area or ability to rapidly spread debilitating stats effects with a high up time. Which is understandable as until plaguebreak debilitating status were mostly useless with purge spam.

But it is time for players who come into Cyrodiil and tend on being at these large encounters to start thinking about integrating a least one wide area debilitation or plaguebreak into their loadouts.

While it is not going be an instant victory against organized groups, I think more players need to understand pressuring their damage/healing output, while reducing their frequency of using purge has a greater impact than just haphazardly trying to dps them down.

Luede

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Can we put the ball groups cause lag myth to bed already?

no sry, if you think ball groups didn't cause any delay u play in one. we can play with our group against 30 people without delay, than the ballgroup (8-12 Player appears) and skills didn't work properly and have 1 sec delay...

"ballgroups do not cause lag", the joke of the century

VaranisArano

umagon wrote: »

From my observations the tools to impact organized groups are in the game now just underutilized. With plaguebreak being added purging has increased consequences for just spamming it nonstop. Groups responded by increasing their healing output and reducing the usage of purge.

Instead of players keeping the threat of plaguebreak in the playfield they stop using it and now some of those groups have more freedom to use purge. When the proper response would have been to utilize more of the sets that reduce both normal healing output, lower critical healing frequency, or have healing absorption; while keeping the pressure of plaguebreak in the playfield.

I find there is still a large tendency for players to come to large objective encounters in one vs one loadouts, that have little or no wide area or ability to rapidly spread debilitating stats effects with a high up time. Which is understandable as until plaguebreak debilitating status were mostly useless with purge spam.

But it is time for players who come into Cyrodiil and tend on being at these large encounters to start thinking about integrating a least one wide area debilitation or plaguebreak into their loadouts.

While it is not going be an instant victory against organized groups, I think more players need to understand pressuring their damage/healing output, while reducing their frequency of using purge has a greater impact than just haphazardly trying to dps them down.

This matches my observation with Inevitable Detonation. It caused us problems when lots of PUGs used it, but give it a week, and the PUGs would stop using it after they realized that we'd adapt to purge less and we weren't dying as much as at first. Then they'd think "It's not killing them, so let me try something else" and then we'd go back to Purging like usual.


It feels to me like some players want sets and skills to just outright kill ball groups with no chance to adapt to survive, rather than realizing that sets like Plaguebreak and skills like Inevtiable Detonation are extremely effective at getting ball groups to adapt their strategy to survive.

Using Inevitable Det and Plaguebreak to force Ball groups to Purge less and rely on other, less effective healing sources to cover the lack of Purge IS a good thing for the players who fight ball groups. It makes the ball more vulnerable to good tactics and even just sustained pressure and CCs from disorganized players. It makes it easier to pick apart the ball by targeting individuals and harder to recover. All that is a good thing for the ball group's opponents.

But if players throw up their hands and stop wearing the set, saying, "Ball groups aren't dying as fast as I want! They adapted and I can't just blow them up when they Purge anymore. Plaguebreak is useless!" Then that's missing the point - or rather, it's asking ZOS to give them an "I win" button.

Plaguebreak and Inevitable Det are not useless - they prevent Ball groups from using a potent tool, which makes them an easier nut to crack. But for the players who expect them to be an "I win" button and who then stop using the set/skill when it becomes apparent that it's not going to just delete ball groups off the map, they create the problem they want to fix.

If you stop using the set/skill that punishes ball groups for purging, ball groups are going to adapt again and go back to purging as strong as ever. Plaguebreak and Inevitable Det are only useless if you don't use them.

If you do wear them, you still have to kill 12 players who've theorycrafted their team to win. They may be an easier nut to crack, but it's foolish to think that a single mechanic or handful of new sets is going to defeat them in one fell swoop.

NotTaylorSwift

Luede wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Can we put the ball groups cause lag myth to bed already?

no sry, if you think ball groups didn't cause any delay u play in one. we can play with our group against 30 people without delay, than the ballgroup (8-12 Player appears) and skills didn't work properly and have 1 sec delay...

"ballgroups do not cause lag", the joke of the century

I just cannot get my head around this argument no matter how hard I try. I can go into Cyrodiil any evening of the week and it is either completely or borderline unplayable at prime time, whether there are ballgroups around or not, and NO... BALLGROUPS ARE NOT RAIDING EVERY SINGLE DAY. There are days in Cyrodiil when there are no ballgroups running. I would LOVE to see footage of these 30v30 zerg fights in prime time where there is no lag. Because I have yet to see it or experience it...

Luede

what 30vs30 zerg fights u mean? i play smallscale

MEBengalsFan2001

Theignson wrote: »

This sounds pretty much like the best ball groups on the PC NA server (eg Dracarys). It takes a lot of work and effort and it isn't easy to run in those groups. The leader has to be incredibly knowledgeable and make quick judgements.

I agree that such a group should easily be able to beat 3x as many pugs. On my faction, several of (the only ) groups that run are just composed of random pugs. There is no designation of role, no build requirements, no instructions , no training. Even worse, most players dont group and are solo.

My question is, doesn't it get old? You are expected to beat pugs. I see ball groups running around inside keeps for 30 minutes, they farm the pugs one by one, focusing their huge 12 man power on 2-4 pugs at a time and wiping them out, then running around some more.

I don't see the point. Why don't ball groups fight other ball groups? Is it really that fun to slaughter random solo pugs who, by your admission, have 10x less stats, healing, etc?

It is not at all like 1v3-- the solo player has only his own buffs and abilities. The ball groups have 10 radiating regens on them, etc etc.

Problem with ESO is that it caters to a lot of solo players. When they get into group content or guilds that run specific content getting them to change their mindset is impossible. Any good PVE Trial player will understand PVP ball group.

maxjapank

Just replying to the Inevitable Det comment...

It really didn’t matter whether a ball group purged or not. Having 3-4 pugs slot that...definitely hurt the ball group. The main reason you don’t see it much anymore is because it’s pretty useless for anything else. And being constantly stuck in combat makes it impossible to slot Inevitable Det when ball groups show up. That, combined with lag, also makes Inevitable Det cast time incredibly long, much longer than it should be. You really have to be on your toes when casting it because it’s easy to be run over while stuck in casting.

As for ball groups, I tend to define ball groups as groups that serve no purpose to the campaign score or faction. All they are generally interested in is farming unorganized pugs. And these days, there are just not enough organized groups to counter these ball groups. It’s funny to see some defending their behavior, but it’s rare to see any of them looking to fight other organized groups. The main problem is that it is not fun for anyone other than said ball group.

Didact805

lol and all I want are decent servers, no desyncs etc. It's the same everywhere.