Ballgroups cheating ?, a view from inside

DjinnAeternam

Theignson wrote: »

This sounds pretty much like the best ball groups on the PC NA server (eg Dracarys). It takes a lot of work and effort and it isn't easy to run in those groups. The leader has to be incredibly knowledgeable and make quick judgements.

I agree that such a group should easily be able to beat 3x as many pugs. On my faction, several of (the only ) groups that run are just composed of random pugs. There is no designation of role, no build requirements, no instructions , no training. Even worse, most players dont group and are solo.

My question is, doesn't it get old? You are expected to beat pugs. I see ball groups running around inside keeps for 30 minutes, they farm the pugs one by one, focusing their huge 12 man power on 2-4 pugs at a time and wiping them out, then running around some more.

I don't see the point. Why don't ball groups fight other ball groups? Is it really that fun to slaughter random solo pugs who, by your admission, have 10x less stats, healing, etc?

It is not at all like 1v3-- the solo player has only his own buffs and abilities. The ball groups have 10 radiating regens on them, etc etc.

Some players do prefer Guild vs Guild (or ballgroup vs ballgroup if you prefer), turning the game into a more chess/strategy and reaction based, which some prefer, instead of herding and stomping on random or casual groups.

We used to face adversary guilds more often, some are really challenging and good guilds in two or even three sided battles (EP vs DC vs AD), both really fun to play and even watch.

Every player is a bit different regarding pvp preferences i guess, and thats ok.

Azurya

Einstein_ wrote: »

If you have further questions feel free to ask.

BTW: we also looking for new experianced and deticated players, you can contanct me ig.

I know all that what you wrote, as I tried it myself, 6 years ago, but I cannot stand it
if someone tells me when and what I have to use, I cannot do that......
in the army I was dismissed from marching with the platoon, something I can´t too,
though all admired me, cauze I was (am) the best sniper ever,
so I wish you good luck, and do not stand somewhere alone if I am close, you will not survive

LarsS

As I understand the discussion, many seem to agree on two points.
1. The gap between casual and hard core is a problem.
2. The incentives to play for the campaign is too weak.
A hard-core group will optimize the builds and roles, in a way casuals won’t be able to. I think it’s fair to say that the cp system and the proc sets causes part of the gap. Anyone who have tried the new non-proc Ravenwatch, will recognize that the gap is smaller, but still existing. I think that the standard procedure of adding new sets that should close the gap is a dead end, zos have tried this for years without success. I may also remind you that the lag was as bad when the game was new, but there were much more pvp players at that time. I think that the widening power gap, caused by the introduction of cp and proc-sets may be an important reason for the decline of the numbers of pvp players.

The problem of incentive should also be addressed, a system is needed that motivates people to fight for the campaign. Incentives are needed that, makes it attractive for the pvp players casual and hard-core to fight for the campaign. Many have made such suggestions, let me just mention one, better campaign rewards.

DjinnAeternam

DTStormfox wrote: »

I want to add the following to the discussion.
This analogy will appear weird at first but will make sense later.

Social deprivation and play in rats
There have been numerous studies into play behaviour in rats. Rats engage in wrestling to establish a dominance-hierarchy. Rats play until one of the rats is pinned down on the ground. In other words, the winner of the play is the rat pinning the other rat down. While the loser of the game is the rat that is being pinned to the ground by the other rat. Researchers* found something interesting in this play behaviour for dominance. The interesting find was that if the weaker rat didn't win at least 30% of the time, the weaker rat quit playing. Even when the dominant rat tried to tease the weaker rat to engage in play, the weaker rat refused to play.

*Panksepp & Beatty, 1980

What does this imply for Cyrodiil and ball groups?
In Cyrodiil, we (players) are - similar to the rats - in a play of dominance. We engage in wrestling around objectives such as resources, structures and scrolls. The dominant players kill the weaker players and win the play. As you pointed out yourself, ball groups tend to win the majority of fights because they are "OP and broken" - partially due to time invested and partially due to game mechanics. The problem is that ball groups seem to win more than 70% of the fights (I believe it is safe to assume this statistic). Simultaneously, this means that the weaker player(s) win less than 30% of the time when they face a ball group. As a consequence, people tend to leave Cyrodiil when they can't win against ball groups and - instead - complain about ball groups on the forums, and partially rightfully so.

Social and fun factor
As already pointed out by some in this discussion, Cyrodiil is about socializing and having fun. When the sole purpose of Cyrodiil is to prove (to yourself or others) that you are the best by winning >70% of the time, it comes at the cost of the social and fun factor that attracts players to Cyrodiil. By which I am not implying that running in a ball group is not fun. The point is, however, that ball groups are a minority in Cyrodiil. As such, the fun experience of the minority is at the expense of the fun that the majority (weaker players) experiences. When the dominant rats in Cyrodiil are too strong and the weaker rats don't win >30% of the time, the weaker rats will eventually refuse to play because it is no longer fun. As a consequence, it seems likely that eventually, the only thing left in Cyrodiil will be fighting with or against ball groups because all other weaker players have left.

In practice
When a ball group intervenes in the battles that occur between the weaker players, the weaker players simply start refusing to play, especially when the ball group appears to be unkillable after multiple attempts. This refusal to play is shown in two types of behaviour: (1) ignoring the ball group and going to another location on the Cyrodiil map, or (2) leaving Cyrodiil to play PvE or do something else instead. In my view, this is an undesirable outcome that appears to be highly correlated to the OP'ness of ball groups.

Footnote:
You could argue that the weaker players simply have to get good. The problem is, however, that most weaker players don't have the time to invest in group-building and min-maxing like some ball group players appear to have. Some people have full-time jobs and very busy lives and simply play in Cyrodiil to have some PvP fun.

Let me rephrase something there, Cyrodiil is about mass PvP, in a Domination-style area, one can engage in other activities but it's main purpose is about Player Vs. Player engaging in dominance over a wide area of terrain, to achieve hegemonia (or just some alliance points that are near useless by now).

You can argument that you prefer to socialize and have fun doing that in Cyrodiil, but claming that it is its purpose is just blatantly wrong.
So any other claim you argue using that argument is just not valid.

It's ok if you don't like ballgroups, or facing ballgroups, and as for any other player, if the game is not fun anymore, everyone is free to leave or just take a break from it.

It's not weaker players that are leaving i must say, veteran and good players are also leaving, just so you know, so the argument goes both ways, using the "casual players" want to have fun in a competitive scenario doesn't make sense, if its Player VS. Player that means "better" players will win over "casuals".

Why would anyone try to force casuals over better players because "we want to socialize and have fun" in a mass pvp instance?

If you want easier opponents, you can improve yourself (or your group), or you know, just don't do PvP, go PvE or something else. You can socialize in any beautifull place around Tamriel, not just in Cyrodill .

Ethardt

I see 2 main problems with ballgroups

1. My personal issue with it is the lag they bring in
As soon as you get closer to them your ping goes over 9000 and the reason why they kill you (overall fun in cyro) is mostly because nothing works anymore

2. Healing stacks
They could f.e. disable undaunted skill-line for PvP
Necrotic Orb is basically only viable as an ballgroup and the effectiveness is way to big
Or lower the amount of healing stacks like radiant regen

There are already alot of other healing abilites they can stack,
overall its easy to say that the power of an ballgroup is way to high,
since you already have the huge advantage of organized gameplay

I dont say they shouldnt exist and its cleary a way people want to play their game,
but it shouldnt function this powerfull

The point that a ballgroup can be defeated by 3+ppl brings some other points with it,
since you need specific setups/skill to fight a ballgroup

Most people dont have these skills, makes them basically useless against those type of groups

Parasaurolophus

I will immediately say that I am not a hater of ballgroups. I think it is completely wrong to shame a player because he just wants to be effective and uses all the available options for this (except for cheating and bugging, of course). However, it’s completely foolish to deny that ballgoups are abuse. It's just exploiting weaknesses in the game's mechanics. And this is entirely the fault of the developers, not the players, no matter how toxic they are. I know what abuse is, I myself used strong procsets even before everyone started using them. I used sload, I was WW / Torugh. I just know how much the advantage of using vulnerable mechanics is.
@Einstein_ I absolutely don't want to discount your experience. I play mainly on stamnb, which has been in low-rate pvp since the nerfs of 2018. When I complained about stam warden, I was told that playing stamwarden is not easy, that you need to aim the shalks and hit the dawbreacker in time. I remade my warden for pvp and learned how to play it. And for a month of active training, I was much more effective than when I played on the NB for 5 years. I stopped considering myself a bad pvp player. Then I started playing manasorc and doing the most frags on BG`s. But I didn't try the necromancer in pvp, because I already know that there is no balance in pvp in eso.
This is what I mean ... In order to play ballgroup you do not need to graduate from Harvard with honors. You simply choose for yourself the only effective way to play in Cyrodiil. The only efficient way to farm pugs. The entire ballgroup skill is lost somewhere when their purgers die.
When in pve a class begins to stand out strongly for its dps, it is nerfed in order to preserve the variety of classes. But for some reason this does not happen in pvp. Necromancers, wardens, ballgroups have such strong advantages that they completely devalue other playstyle. This reaches the point of absurdity. I hardly see strong players clashing with each other, because they understand perfectly well that this will lead nowhere. Cyrodiil today is just beating pugs because neither ballgroups nor just strong players can harm each other. PVP in this game is at a dead end. The popularity of pvp in this game speaks about it.

MadeInVN

CharlieFreak wrote: »

No one wants to hear this, but this is the worst thing that can happen to PvP in this game - but you guys will never see it. And that is the reason why you play with the same 100 people day in and day out. You complain all day about how PvP is dying or dead because ZoS doesn't support it. Nope that's not why. It's you and your elite groups, and the over-the-top damage in this game.

Most people who play games cannot commit to this level of dedication, and they're being tossed into battle with people who live and breath this game. They just wanna come in and have some fun. Similar to what they'd do in Counter-Strike or something. Get a few kills. Accept that they suck, but those few successes inspire them to try harder, improve their gear, etc.

I love pvp and have played pvp-centric MMOs for over 20 years (started with Ultima Online). I try so hard to get my friends in this game to pvp more (or at all) and they try it for a few days and never come back. Why? Because they go out there, maybe THINK about casting a spell or something. Get in range, instantly stunned and dead before they come unstunned. Over and over and over. "Charlie this is stupid! Who would want to play this garbage" And they go back to doing easy mode vet Trials so they can actually maybe use a couple skills before they are vaporized.

This is the first MMO I've ever played where a normal casual player will, as a rule, be stunned for 3-4 full seconds at the start of an encounter and die before he ever used a single ability. Magicka toons in heavy armor and sword/board. Every melee class with a gap closer they can spam. Kiting impossible unless you are a sorc. It's all so ridiculous to people from other MMOs. (not sure about WoW. Never played it.)

The pvp in this game will ONLY ever appeal to hardcore pvpers. Think about the millions of subs this game boasts, and how few of those people PvP. It's an awful experience for all but the most hardcore.

Personally I have learned to adapt. I play mostly solo/duo and do my own thing - as do many of you reading this, but in 20 years of MMOs I have never seen anything like this... and it's extremely off-turning to casual players.

It's never fun to be absolutely steamrolled over and over for 100% of your game time. But this is what cheese-ball groups offer for the casual player in Cyro.

I don't think shifting the blame to players instead of ZOS's inability to balance their game is the correct conclusion.

The reason why PvP is dying is due to bad performance and balance. Many of my PvP friends whom I've known for years started quitting due to lag, proc metas, and overall bad balancing. It has nothing to do with "elite groups or over-the-top damage". New players who don't bother to get good will always leave. You can't stop them. But the ones that do stay, have already made up their mind to learn and become better. What's actually stopping them from doing so is bad performance and balance, both of which are still plaguing PvP. I mean, just look at these new proc sets as case in point.

CharlieFreak

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

No one wants to hear this, but this is the worst thing that can happen to PvP in this game - but you guys will never see it. And that is the reason why you play with the same 100 people day in and day out. You complain all day about how PvP is dying or dead because ZoS doesn't support it. Nope that's not why. It's you and your elite groups, and the over-the-top damage in this game.

Most people who play games cannot commit to this level of dedication, and they're being tossed into battle with people who live and breath this game. They just wanna come in and have some fun. Similar to what they'd do in Counter-Strike or something. Get a few kills. Accept that they suck, but those few successes inspire them to try harder, improve their gear, etc.

I love pvp and have played pvp-centric MMOs for over 20 years (started with Ultima Online). I try so hard to get my friends in this game to pvp more (or at all) and they try it for a few days and never come back. Why? Because they go out there, maybe THINK about casting a spell or something. Get in range, instantly stunned and dead before they come unstunned. Over and over and over. "Charlie this is stupid! Who would want to play this garbage" And they go back to doing easy mode vet Trials so they can actually maybe use a couple skills before they are vaporized.

This is the first MMO I've ever played where a normal casual player will, as a rule, be stunned for 3-4 full seconds at the start of an encounter and die before he ever used a single ability. Magicka toons in heavy armor and sword/board. Every melee class with a gap closer they can spam. Kiting impossible unless you are a sorc. It's all so ridiculous to people from other MMOs. (not sure about WoW. Never played it.)

The pvp in this game will ONLY ever appeal to hardcore pvpers. Think about the millions of subs this game boasts, and how few of those people PvP. It's an awful experience for all but the most hardcore.

Personally I have learned to adapt. I play mostly solo/duo and do my own thing - as do many of you reading this, but in 20 years of MMOs I have never seen anything like this... and it's extremely off-turning to casual players.

It's never fun to be absolutely steamrolled over and over for 100% of your game time. But this is what cheese-ball groups offer for the casual player in Cyro.

I don't think shifting the blame to players instead of ZOS's inability to balance their game is the correct conclusion.

The reason why PvP is dying is due to bad performance and balance. Many of my PvP friends whom I've known for years started quitting due to lag, proc metas, and overall bad balancing. It has nothing to do with "elite groups or over-the-top damage". New players who don't bother to get good will always leave. You can't stop them. But the ones that do stay, have already made up their mind to learn and become better. What's actually stopping them from doing so is bad performance and balance, both of which are still plaguing PvP. I mean, just look at these new proc sets as case in point.

Yeah the performance is a serious problem.

Presumably you've played other MMOs. You know that there is never any balance to suit people. Every forum will be full of posts claiming that the devs are cognitively challenged and that you have the obvious solution. I have never played a single MMO where the forums were not packed with this stuff. You could copy and paste every post from here on that topic into any other MMO forum and just change the class names to match, and people would thumbs-up your post all day long.

That's why I chuckle when people claim this new MMO coming out is going to solve all these problems. You can set your watch and bet your bank account, that within a couple months their forums will be full of the same stuff.

etchedpixels

LarsS wrote: »

]
The problem of incentive should also be addressed, a system is needed that motivates people to fight for the campaign. Incentives are needed that, makes it attractive for the pvp players casual and hard-core to fight for the campaign. Many have made such suggestions, let me just mention one, better campaign rewards.

NoCP with proc sets removed is much much better but the incentives are broken in the game (just as the broken incentives for transmutes in PvE cause all the toxic dungeon problems)

If your rewards for the second, third, fourth etc repeat of killing 10 necros, 40 players whatever went down and down over a day but things like keep captures and defence ticks didn't then the ballgroups farming players would be earning nothing for their trouble unless they actually played the campaign. It would also balance things a bit for newer players where they feel stuck in a situation that they need to level some pvp skills by mindlessly repairing walls to get going.

MadeInVN

CharlieFreak wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

No one wants to hear this, but this is the worst thing that can happen to PvP in this game - but you guys will never see it. And that is the reason why you play with the same 100 people day in and day out. You complain all day about how PvP is dying or dead because ZoS doesn't support it. Nope that's not why. It's you and your elite groups, and the over-the-top damage in this game.

Most people who play games cannot commit to this level of dedication, and they're being tossed into battle with people who live and breath this game. They just wanna come in and have some fun. Similar to what they'd do in Counter-Strike or something. Get a few kills. Accept that they suck, but those few successes inspire them to try harder, improve their gear, etc.

I love pvp and have played pvp-centric MMOs for over 20 years (started with Ultima Online). I try so hard to get my friends in this game to pvp more (or at all) and they try it for a few days and never come back. Why? Because they go out there, maybe THINK about casting a spell or something. Get in range, instantly stunned and dead before they come unstunned. Over and over and over. "Charlie this is stupid! Who would want to play this garbage" And they go back to doing easy mode vet Trials so they can actually maybe use a couple skills before they are vaporized.

This is the first MMO I've ever played where a normal casual player will, as a rule, be stunned for 3-4 full seconds at the start of an encounter and die before he ever used a single ability. Magicka toons in heavy armor and sword/board. Every melee class with a gap closer they can spam. Kiting impossible unless you are a sorc. It's all so ridiculous to people from other MMOs. (not sure about WoW. Never played it.)

The pvp in this game will ONLY ever appeal to hardcore pvpers. Think about the millions of subs this game boasts, and how few of those people PvP. It's an awful experience for all but the most hardcore.

Personally I have learned to adapt. I play mostly solo/duo and do my own thing - as do many of you reading this, but in 20 years of MMOs I have never seen anything like this... and it's extremely off-turning to casual players.

It's never fun to be absolutely steamrolled over and over for 100% of your game time. But this is what cheese-ball groups offer for the casual player in Cyro.

I don't think shifting the blame to players instead of ZOS's inability to balance their game is the correct conclusion.

The reason why PvP is dying is due to bad performance and balance. Many of my PvP friends whom I've known for years started quitting due to lag, proc metas, and overall bad balancing. It has nothing to do with "elite groups or over-the-top damage". New players who don't bother to get good will always leave. You can't stop them. But the ones that do stay, have already made up their mind to learn and become better. What's actually stopping them from doing so is bad performance and balance, both of which are still plaguing PvP. I mean, just look at these new proc sets as case in point.

Yeah the performance is a serious problem.

Presumably you've played other MMOs. You know that there is never any balance to suit people. Every forum will be full of posts claiming that the devs are cognitively challenged and that you have the obvious solution. I have never played a single MMO where the forums were not packed with this stuff. You could copy and paste every post from here on that topic into any other MMO forum and just change the class names to match, and people would thumbs-up your post all day long.

That's why I chuckle when people claim this new MMO coming out is going to solve all these problems. You can set your watch and bet your bank account, that within a couple months their forums will be full of the same stuff.

Correct, there isn't a single game where everybody is happy with balance. But can you honestly say that a PvP game that caters to casuals is a good PvP game? Never have I seen a game where developers intentionally punish players for being better than others. What ZOS has been doing for the past 2 years is basically "Hey, we know you died to X mechanics, so we'll help you by removing said mechanics or introducing X sets so you can finally have a better chance against them" instead of "These mechanics are completely fine and introduce a skill gap for PvP, you should put in the time to get better or accept the fact that you are a casual player and will lose against hardcore players".

Putting a cast time on most offensive ultimates, introducing broken proc sets, making abilities easier to land are just some of the things ZOS did to lower the skill gap. And guess what? The skill gap barely changed. Casual players still died to ultimates with a cast time. Casual players still died to better players who adapted to the proc meta. Casual players still die despite having their abilities be easier to land. You can't just fix the skill gap by nerfing hardcore players. That's a big middle fingler to those who put in the effort to improve their gameplay.

What ZOS should have done was separating players based on their skill level like every other PvP game. Right now we have BGs, but the ranking system there is so bad nobody cares about being on the leaderboard. We don't know how it works because ZOS never made the info public. So focusing on that to draw in experienced and hardcore players is a much better long term solution.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I'm honestly surprised at this point that players aren't just calling for non grouping campaigns

The never ending stream of X,y,z needs to be nerfed to bring the top end down to meet the base line of "I don't care about time investment I just want to light attack/siege to win" is astonishing.

Just have all sets all skills disabled in cyro. No groups and no friendly or enemy indicators have everyone just light attacking around them with no healing. I can guarantee ball groups won't be an issue then.

CharlieFreak

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

No one wants to hear this, but this is the worst thing that can happen to PvP in this game - but you guys will never see it. And that is the reason why you play with the same 100 people day in and day out. You complain all day about how PvP is dying or dead because ZoS doesn't support it. Nope that's not why. It's you and your elite groups, and the over-the-top damage in this game.

Most people who play games cannot commit to this level of dedication, and they're being tossed into battle with people who live and breath this game. They just wanna come in and have some fun. Similar to what they'd do in Counter-Strike or something. Get a few kills. Accept that they suck, but those few successes inspire them to try harder, improve their gear, etc.

I love pvp and have played pvp-centric MMOs for over 20 years (started with Ultima Online). I try so hard to get my friends in this game to pvp more (or at all) and they try it for a few days and never come back. Why? Because they go out there, maybe THINK about casting a spell or something. Get in range, instantly stunned and dead before they come unstunned. Over and over and over. "Charlie this is stupid! Who would want to play this garbage" And they go back to doing easy mode vet Trials so they can actually maybe use a couple skills before they are vaporized.

This is the first MMO I've ever played where a normal casual player will, as a rule, be stunned for 3-4 full seconds at the start of an encounter and die before he ever used a single ability. Magicka toons in heavy armor and sword/board. Every melee class with a gap closer they can spam. Kiting impossible unless you are a sorc. It's all so ridiculous to people from other MMOs. (not sure about WoW. Never played it.)

The pvp in this game will ONLY ever appeal to hardcore pvpers. Think about the millions of subs this game boasts, and how few of those people PvP. It's an awful experience for all but the most hardcore.

Personally I have learned to adapt. I play mostly solo/duo and do my own thing - as do many of you reading this, but in 20 years of MMOs I have never seen anything like this... and it's extremely off-turning to casual players.

It's never fun to be absolutely steamrolled over and over for 100% of your game time. But this is what cheese-ball groups offer for the casual player in Cyro.

I don't think shifting the blame to players instead of ZOS's inability to balance their game is the correct conclusion.

The reason why PvP is dying is due to bad performance and balance. Many of my PvP friends whom I've known for years started quitting due to lag, proc metas, and overall bad balancing. It has nothing to do with "elite groups or over-the-top damage". New players who don't bother to get good will always leave. You can't stop them. But the ones that do stay, have already made up their mind to learn and become better. What's actually stopping them from doing so is bad performance and balance, both of which are still plaguing PvP. I mean, just look at these new proc sets as case in point.

Yeah the performance is a serious problem.

Presumably you've played other MMOs. You know that there is never any balance to suit people. Every forum will be full of posts claiming that the devs are cognitively challenged and that you have the obvious solution. I have never played a single MMO where the forums were not packed with this stuff. You could copy and paste every post from here on that topic into any other MMO forum and just change the class names to match, and people would thumbs-up your post all day long.

That's why I chuckle when people claim this new MMO coming out is going to solve all these problems. You can set your watch and bet your bank account, that within a couple months their forums will be full of the same stuff.

Correct, there isn't a single game where everybody is happy with balance. But can you honestly say that a PvP game that caters to casuals is a good PvP game? Never have I seen a game where developers intentionally punish players for being better than others. What ZOS has been doing for the past 2 years is basically "Hey, we know you died to X mechanics, so we'll help you by removing said mechanics or introducing X sets so you can finally have a better chance against them" instead of "These mechanics are completely fine and introduce a skill gap for PvP, you should put in the time to get better or accept the fact that you are a casual player and will lose against hardcore players".

Putting a cast time on most offensive ultimates, introducing broken proc sets, making abilities easier to land are just some of the things ZOS did to lower the skill gap. And guess what? The skill gap barely changed. Casual players still died to ultimates with a cast time. Casual players still died to better players who adapted to the proc meta. Casual players still die despite having their abilities be easier to land. You can't just fix the skill gap by nerfing hardcore players. That's a big middle fingler to those who put in the effort to improve their gameplay.

What ZOS should have done was separating players based on their skill level like every other PvP game. Right now we have BGs, but the ranking system there is so bad nobody cares about being on the leaderboard. We don't know how it works because ZOS never made the info public. So focusing on that to draw in experienced and hardcore players is a much better long term solution.

Yeah that's a great idea. I've seen that in other games for Batttlegrounds. We definitely need a proper ranking system for BGs. I've never seen that in open world. though - other than separating players by level. But even then people will make an alt, gear them out with funds/crafting from their main, and destroy people. I was doing it in Warhammer. I don't feel good about it now, though. I mean i was circumventing the spirit of what they were trying to accomplish.

As far as catering to casuals. I think for a pvp game to thrive, they must. The only hardcore pvp game that i've played that seemed to thrive was Eve Online. But they did market it as the game for hardcore pvpers. I don't know what it's like now. I haven't played it in many years. Didn't even check if it's still running.

Theignson

I've wasted a LOT of my life in the last 5 years PvPing in Cyrodil. I do love the game, especially large scale open field battles.

About 95% of that time I wasn't in a group.

I have often wondered what cyrodil would be like with no group abilities. No group heals, no group buffs, no group purges. Sort of like how I usually run.

Everyone would have to heal themselves, boost their own damage, assess their own build and choose how to run. If you are pure damage, the ball group would not cover you or heal you. etc.

Ball groups could still coordinate in discord and maneuver. I'll bet they would still win a lot of fights.

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

Soraka

My only issue with ball groups is the lag they bring with them.

neferpitou73

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised at this point that players aren't just calling for non grouping campaigns

The never ending stream of X,y,z needs to be nerfed to bring the top end down to meet the base line of "I don't care about time investment I just want to light attack/siege to win" is astonishing.

Just have all sets all skills disabled in cyro. No groups and no friendly or enemy indicators have everyone just light attacking around them with no healing. I can guarantee ball groups won't be an issue then.

No see that wouldn't work either because people could still coordinate via text chat!

Parasaurolophus

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised at this point that players aren't just calling for non grouping campaigns

The never ending stream of X,y,z needs to be nerfed to bring the top end down to meet the base line of "I don't care about time investment I just want to light attack/siege to win" is astonishing.

Just have all sets all skills disabled in cyro. No groups and no friendly or enemy indicators have everyone just light attacking around them with no healing. I can guarantee ball groups won't be an issue then.

You completely ignore what other players say too. Do you think the balance is so perfect in the game that the problem is solely in the skills of the players? Seriously? Most of BG`s players are wardens and sorks. Most of Cyrodiil's players are Wardens and Necromancers. Necromancers are still denied duels at the walls of Bergama.
Is the balance still perfect and supports different playstyles?
There is nothing over-hard to manage ballgroups. It's no big deal to crush pugs and solo players. You just get an atomic bomb at your disposal.
Just answer the question yourself - run like a paravozik and spam AoE is it really supposed to be a high-end pvp gameplay in this game?
Also, I think it is necessary to standardize and add small cooldown on cleansing effects. All the ballgroups I've met fall apart pretty quickly with the death of the purger. I think that way I think it would be balanced.

biminirwb17_ESO

My experience of ball groups NA PC GH.

Start by going to an outpost between the other 2 factions.
Move to an existing fight and backdoor the keep
Ride across the map to pvdoor a tri keep
End up at alessia bridge

They cant siege a defended keep, if they get in the front door and its too hot they run around the walls till they have to jump out. If they get in they find it hard to flip both flags cos they cant split up so they get pushed upstairs and run around.

Its never about taking an objective its all about showing what they are good at, which is limited.

There are much more dangerous groups of good players who don't ball, can take objectives and who can survive when split apart.

Olen_Mikko

Usually people who accuse others of cheating, are the ones that just don't want to equip themselves a proper pvp setup and get whacked. And never learn from it.

But i wouldn't call you ballers a cheaters. No, i call ballers a cheesers. And there's a big difference. By cheesing i mean abusing all broken mechanics, equiping the cheesiest gear-class-race-skill combinations available and just spamming aoe skills and heals. And ofc, there's nothing wrong with that because it's not forbidden and is valid game tactic.

But with discord, these ball groups looks like unbeatable - which they are, if you just randomly follow them and don't know how to counter them or not being co-operative.

I've witnessed dozens of times that even the mightiest ball groups, nova included, will fall, when they're picked one by one and not just randomly followed and stepped into a aoe traps. Sometimes, PUGs don't listen and just run aimlessly and dies - which is my mark to leave. I try to not give any extra ap to ball groups. And yes, i'll get wiped occasionally too, of course.

Anyway, of course even balling - and leading it - needs some sort of skills, not saying that it wouldn't. But it gives people false sense of goodness. As long as you fight unorganized PUGs, you should win - if not, well, that's a poor and shameful effort.

I'm not very impressed by ballgroups, unless they actually would fight against equally equipped opponents. Like i'm not impressed by 1vXers who think circling around rocks and killing noobs is some sort of achievement.

Einstein_

This is a Group game !! , its not some single player survival. As much as i hate it to get zerged down by some PUG group if i am playing solo i have to admit they play the game like intendet.
Cyro is made for group/faction battles and a optimized group is just the best way to win in this battle. Besides of that i dont even think that this groups use broken mechanics or are OP because abusing something.

Most groups on PC/EU die vs 10-20 PuGs, its not like every of the 10-15 diffrent groups existing will run arround as a unkilllable train. If its that broken why are not all ballgroups "unkillable" ?
Since our favorit competitors Fist/RPC are not raiding anymore, there is sadly no other group which is willing to improve and get on a serious lvl .I hope that will change again.

Also a Ballgroup has its strength and weaknesses:
we have alot healing because we move stacked together -->> ez target for AOE dmg and we cant split to chease single ppl who are dangourous.
...theire are many others but i guess you have to find them yourself

what bothers me the most is that aperantly alot ppl think that they must stand a chance on there solo builds in a uncordinated group vs a optimized group.

That hold aswell for smallscale groups, idk how many smalescale groups run around with their 5 Necros/Wardens and think they are a OP. They are just good because they are maybe good solo players. If you acually create a smalescale group of 5 ppl with a optimized setup (AOE Vigor/RR/harmony/right classes/suport/DD) they will absolutly clapp even the best "solo player" group. Because they understood how to build a group effectivly! A tanky solo build isnt a good group build!

P.S. somebody said we only work because of "Purge Bots".....we dont even use purge anymore since the new sets.

Hymzir

I've ran in an organized group. I no longer do. It is fun, and does take its own skill to do well, but when taken to extremes, it gets so far removed from playing the actual game, that I no longer see any point in it.

I play PVP for the fights, I don't care about the campaign score anymore, or the "rewards" you get from doing PVP, and I feel AP to be mostly a joke at this point. I do still try to play the objectives, since that is sort of the point of it all. I mean, doing freestyle tricks in a circle with your friends is fun and kewl, but it's no really playing football (soccer for you barbarians out there) now is it? And if I go join a match on a field, I feel I should try to play for goals instead of doing tricks.

Also, one needs to keep in mind that there are random groups, organized groups and ball groups. Technically they all are groups, but the way they impact the game differ. In a significant manner. The real issue is with the ball groups, and not because they are "bad" or play wrong, or are just trolling. No, they are doing something the game lets them, encourages them and rewards them for doing it. Even if it runs contrary the established spirit of the game itself.

ESO PVP is touted as being all about counterplay - you are supposed to rely on visual clues to counter your opponents attacks. Manage your resources while maneuvering for the kill and bringing your burst on line. This takes situational awareness, experience, quick reflexes and a deep understanding of the mechanics involved. And there is a direct engagement with the player you are fighting - which one of you has the skills to carry the day?

It's also hard and complicated. I mean, just look at all the different CC's the game has - you got stuns, knock-backs, roots and snares. All in several different flavors. You need to know when to block, when to dodge, when to break free and when to shield or heal through the attacks. And you need to do all that while still managing to set up your opponent for a burst or catch them of guard when their resources run low. And you need to do it while managing you resources and not running out yourself. And you gotta keep an eye on what takes place after as well. Fights in Cyro aren't duels after all - you gotta have a plan for what to do after your foe is downed, so you wont just get killed by your opponents buddies while low on resources. It's also good to have a getaway plan in play as wel,l in case the enemy side gets sudden reinforcements.

ESO PVP is dynamic and engaging and hard. It's also rewarding and fun and engaging. And despite the fights taking place in the same places year after year, there are so many moving parts involved that it never gets old. Every fight is different. There is a real sense of accomplishment and progression to be had there. The more you play the better you will get. Player skill and experience are a real thing in ESO.

But that's not how the balls roll. Because doing any of that dynamic *** is just nonsense, and the real way to dominate is to ignore all that and instead run in a group with a dedicated function. As the OP points out, if you build for a specific task and role in a group, you can go for bonkers stats. You can ignore several facets of the system. Resource managements? Not your problem. Healing and purges? There's a dedicated fellow to handle all that. Keeping up rapids? Again, not your job. You can just build for dealing crapton of damage. And you don't even have to worry about targeting your foes. Crown tells you where to go and where to kill. You got stun monkeys that line up targets unable to actively defend themselves while you unload a buttload of damage on them. And don't worry about targeting or aiming eitehr. Just rely on indiscriminate AOE dumping and kills will flow your way.

As long as the ball is running, and everyone is doing their job and focusing on whatever their task is, everything will be hunky dory. Just keep on crown and keep doing your job. Do not waste your time and energy or even attention on things you are not supposed to worry about.

Fighting a ball group is frustrating because they are not really engaging with you, you are not fighting the players as such. You are essentially just trying to lob wrenches, into the engine that is the ball group, in hopes of crippling it long enough for the thing to explode. At the same time, the players in the ball are not really paying much attention to you, they got a job to do and that's where their attention is. You are just another passerby they mow down like grass as the engine keeps choo-chooing happily along.

Many a times I've seen a ball rush past me and basically just ignore my presence. Experience has taught me to predict the balls movements, and as long as I do not attract the direct attention of the Crown, I can steer away from them. When I see a ball coming my way, I roll dodge, sprint, or bolt away and to the side, and the ball will rush past me. Many a times I have escaped with no resources left, a sitting duck waiting for the kill, but still safe because I am outside the radius of the balls AOEs. The crown keeps running towards the next target no longer interested in my existence, and any members of the group lagging behind the main body, will ignore me while I sit there with zero resources lobbing limp light attacks at the straggler, who is far more focused on rejoining the ball, than finishing my sad ass off.

If I do get focused by the crown, my best bet is to quaff an immovable potion and dodge roll through the ball and hope my defenses last. Once through, I will be safe, because the ball will continue on it's course like a plane on autopilot, and I can pause to regather my strength. Not like the players in the ball will pay any attention to me. They are not there to fight me, they are there to do their job as a cog in the machine that is the ball.

After years of fighting these groups, the best move I've found is to observe them as they run around, highlight the healers for targeting, and then try to get couple of other players focus on that same healer. Eventually you will be presented with a window where you can take that healer down, and then the ball just disintegrates. If you take a dd down, it doesn't really matter to the ball. They will hunker over the corpse and rez the player while the healers keep the rest of the group alive. But if you manage to kill one of those crucial support roles within the machine, it will break down and the survivors will scatter to the four winds. Usually utterly incapable of putting up any meaningful defense to save their own hide.

Another fun thing to do, though it isn't easy, is to use magnum shot or similar knock-back ability to push a ball member down from a keep wall while the rest of the group keeps running ahead. The isolated player is often easy pickings once they are outside the healing bubble of the ball. And they don't even try to defend them, as all their attention tends to be with rejoining the ball.

And yeah, this is, of course, an exaggerated and over simplified picture I'm painting here. Actual engagements in Cyro never go quite according to the plan. Like some person famously said something about no battle plan surviving contact with enemy, no group can really run in Cyro like bots. Things happen, the game lags at the wrong point and your group gets hosed, and you gotta improvise. But when things do go smooth, boy do they go smooth for the ball.

And that's why people hate those ultra dedicated ballgroups pushing the limits of what is possible within the framework of the game. It just isn't fun fighting them. At all. Those with experience know it's a tedious slog of trying to isolate those healers within the ball, and those newer to the ESO PVP just keep dropping like flies, since they think the skillful counter-play based paradigm has any bearing with how things play out with a ball. There is always that one brave player, who charges into the ball waving their greatsword, confident in their ability to at least inflict as much harm as they receive. Of course, what happens is that they get stunned, rooted, and snared as soon as the ball brushes past them - and then they die from 10 different AOEs landing on them while they are stuck in a break free animation.

I got somewhere in my archives a funny death screen cap, where all the 5 attacks listed by the game were Steel Tornadoes, each doing about 4k damage. The funny part is that each Steel Tornado was delivered by a different player. All within the same second. All from a group of players who simply rushed past me, with none of them engaging me directly. They just ran past me and I turned into a cloud of pink mist. So yeah, counterplay that why don't ya.

I've been here since late beta and I've watched the evolution of the Ball group. I don't like them, and wish they didn't exist and during actual play I detest the players who participate in them and resent the devs for allowing them to exist. But that is in the heat of the battle. When I'm calmer and can think things clearly, I really can't blame people for participating in them. They are just objectively speaking so much more effective method than trying to engage with the mechanics of the game in the way they are supposedly intended.

Let me emphasize that, so that it really sinks in - Ball groups are so much better way of utilizing what the system allows, that anyone not running in one is consciously shooting themselves in the foot.

Still, It is what I choose to do, and wish more people did the same.

Ball groups are a disruptive element that turns so many away from PVP in ESO. But at the same time, it is the logical evolution of group tactics in this game. The whole system supports them, every mechanic encourages to run in a ball, and every new element introduced to reign in balls has just empowered them more.

And like I said, I've been there, I've done that, and it's fun in its own way. But it isn't what EOS claims and portrays PVP to be. On a mechanical level that is. It's just something the system allows, and is something that is by far the most effective way to get a really high kill vs death ratio. I'm not even convinced running in a ball is the most effective way to farm AP, though it certainly isn't bad at that. The one thing it truly excels at is killing hordes of unorganized players with little to no risk of death to those running in one.

That is why ball vs ball is so rare. It does happen, and it tends to be over in a flash. The side that runs a tighter crew wins, pretty much every time. Balls are not designed for ball vs. ball matches, so the people running in them don't want to engage other balls unless forced. Especially if one ball knows the other ball to be more experienced. Why bother, really? There is little if anything to learn from such encounters. the side that gets their AOEs in line and their shields and hots and purges up faster after the initial pulse of damage from the opposing group wins. You cant gleam much from watching the fight afterwards either. All you can do is to keep farming those bugs, and training your muscle memory, so that the next time you fight another ball, your side is faster.

Like i said in the thread about the new sets and groups, I don't have a solution to the problem. It is what it is. I wish it wasn't. And even if hte people running in balls at the moment stopped, it wouldn't solve anything. Any new player who gets interested in running in an organized group, will just start the evolution down to a ball group anew. Them's the breaks.

CharlieFreak

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Like i'm not impressed by 1vXers who think circling around rocks and killing noobs is some sort of achievement.

Yeah the 1vXers are quite funny and so proud of themselves on YouTube. "Here's me 1vXing, and I'll show you how to PvP at the highest levels."

And every single clip is basically a couple of very low rank opponents show up. He runs right into a tower, or makes a beeline for the nearest rock formation, and circles around until people get so bored/dizzy that they don't even bother rebuffing or healing - just chasing and trying to actually get a hit with their spammable.

Man, it's so boring IMO. I don't know how guys can do this for hours and hours every night. If that's what you like, I don't care, but I refuse to follow as soon as they run right into the tower.

Saw this last night in IC. There was some streamers baiting people, then running right into one of the buildings with stairs and here we go again - tower fight of LoS frustration.

And all of their 'best pvp tier lists" are based around this playstyle.

Einstein_

But that's not how the balls roll. Because doing any of that dynamic *** is just nonsense, and the real way to dominate is to ignore all that and instead run in a group with a dedicated function. As the OP points out, if you build for a specific task and role in a group, you can go for bonkers stats. You can ignore several facets of the system. Resource managements? Not your problem. Healing and purges? There's a dedicated fellow to handle all that. Keeping up rapids? Again, not your job. You can just build for dealing crapton of damage. And you don't even have to worry about targeting your foes. Crown tells you where to go and where to kill. You got stun monkeys that line up targets unable to actively defend themselves while you unload a buttload of damage on them. And don't worry about targeting or aiming eitehr. Just rely on indiscriminate AOE dumping and kills will flow your way.

sorry to tell you but its just not true (only if you stomp 10 PuGs with your 12 man raid, but we mostly fight 12v30+), but you never played in a exp group i guess. yeah we have ppl with deticated tasks, but that doesnt mean its a one button spammer. Theire is NO role which just spams one skill.
- Every role has its buffs to keep up, same as solo.
- you need to time your burst (deto/acuity/CA/Shalks/glyph/synergy), same as solo.
- everybody needs to keep their heals up at all time, same as solo.
- you need to avoid dmg with dodges/block, same as solo (nobody can outheal 30ppl solo targeting you if you are in the back, that would ez be 100k DPS).
.....
the only diffrenze is that you do it as a group with cordination.

for myself i can deffnetly say that its more challenging then duelling in Alikre 95% of the time.

That is why ball vs ball is so rare. It does happen, and it tends to be over in a flash. The side that runs a tighter crew wins, pretty much every time. Balls are not designed for ball vs. ball matches, so the people running in them don't want to engage other balls unless forced. Especially if one ball knows the other ball to be more experienced. Why bother, really? There is little if anything to learn from such encounters. the side that gets their AOEs in line and their shields and hots and purges up faster after the initial pulse of damage from the opposing group wins. You cant gleam much from watching the fight afterwards either. All you can do is to keep farming those bugs, and training your muscle memory, so that the next time you fight another ball, your side is faster.

i see you never saw a GvG between two good groups. what you never ever want to do in a GvG is stacking....
- you need to bait their ultis/acuity/synergies
- be super fast in helping ppl out of your group getting focused
- get the whole groups burst/stun in the same 1-3s window on the same position. (only not exp. groups will stack for you)


if you never done or saw such a GvG its hard to understand, but its the complet oposit then fighting PuGs. When Fist/RPC where still up we had such GvGs atleast twice a week, sometimes over 1h, but we did that in areas where no PuGs interfere.

But you have pointed out some weeknesses of ballgroups. Its not the ultimat playstyle with no counters, ppl who know how ballgroups work can kill them. Not in a 4v12 , but when a ballgrup is busy fighting some PuGs every cordinated smalescale group can kill them.

P.S. Organized groups suffer as much from lagg then anybody else....You need to kite because 30 ppl chasing you open field ?, somebody cant break free = Death...that happends few times and the group will fall apart.

Stx

I have never understood the hate you see some people post with regarding ball groups or just large groups in general.

Cyrodiil is designed around large groups... it's a large battlefield with sieges. Large group play should be encouraged, not demonized. If ball groups are killing you, get some guildies or start your own group, practice, get better. And try to take down that ball group...

It seems to me a lot of players that complain about ball groups are solo players or 1vXers who enjoy running around towers and rocks picking players off, and ball groups must ruin their plans. I don't know exactly, but they come off as entitled.

MadeInVN

CharlieFreak wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Like i'm not impressed by 1vXers who think circling around rocks and killing noobs is some sort of achievement.

Yeah the 1vXers are quite funny and so proud of themselves on YouTube. "Here's me 1vXing, and I'll show you how to PvP at the highest levels."

And every single clip is basically a couple of very low rank opponents show up. He runs right into a tower, or makes a beeline for the nearest rock formation, and circles around until people get so bored/dizzy that they don't even bother rebuffing or healing - just chasing and trying to actually get a hit with their spammable.

Man, it's so boring IMO. I don't know how guys can do this for hours and hours every night. If that's what you like, I don't care, but I refuse to follow as soon as they run right into the tower.

Saw this last night in IC. There was some streamers baiting people, then running right into one of the buildings with stairs and here we go again - tower fight of LoS frustration.

And all of their 'best pvp tier lists" are based around this playstyle.

I’m a 1vXer, and I can say the same thing about players who mindlessly chase down 1 person.

Have you ever been in a fight where each side has equal numbers and everybody seems to be surviving well, then suddenly one side gets 10 more players and it becomes a steam roll? I have, and it’s so boring to spam light attacks and still kill someone because you have 10 more people with you.

When I 1vX, I get chased by 8+ players. Some are fresh meat. Some are semi experienced (20-30 AvA rank). Some are veterans (40+ AvA rank). Cyrodiil usually has that distribution of players, except during events and the last day of the campaign where PvErs join for their rewards. There are no current builds that can tank 8+ players except for pure tanks. Therefore using LoS becomes a valid tactic to mitigate damage.

In every single one of my 1vX fights, NONE of my opponents were the one to take aggro first. I mean it’s a pretty simple concept. When you are around 20+ people of your alliance and you see 1 lone player of the opposite faction, what is the first thing you’d want to do? Well, you’d want to take him out for easy AP. That’s what happens in every single fight - a larger group sees one lone player, chases him down, falls for the LoS tactic, and dies one by one.

Some fights are easy, but some fights are super difficult where even 4 players can give you big trouble. It all depends on how good the bigger group is. But that’s the thrill of it.

CharlieFreak

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Like i'm not impressed by 1vXers who think circling around rocks and killing noobs is some sort of achievement.

Yeah the 1vXers are quite funny and so proud of themselves on YouTube. "Here's me 1vXing, and I'll show you how to PvP at the highest levels."

And every single clip is basically a couple of very low rank opponents show up. He runs right into a tower, or makes a beeline for the nearest rock formation, and circles around until people get so bored/dizzy that they don't even bother rebuffing or healing - just chasing and trying to actually get a hit with their spammable.

Man, it's so boring IMO. I don't know how guys can do this for hours and hours every night. If that's what you like, I don't care, but I refuse to follow as soon as they run right into the tower.

Saw this last night in IC. There was some streamers baiting people, then running right into one of the buildings with stairs and here we go again - tower fight of LoS frustration.

And all of their 'best pvp tier lists" are based around this playstyle.

I’m a 1vXer, and I can say the same thing about players who mindlessly chase down 1 person.

Have you ever been in a fight where each side has equal numbers and everybody seems to be surviving well, then suddenly one side gets 10 more players and it becomes a steam roll? I have, and it’s so boring to spam light attacks and still kill someone because you have 10 more people with you.

When I 1vX, I get chased by 8+ players. Some are fresh meat. Some are semi experienced (20-30 AvA rank). Some are veterans (40+ AvA rank). Cyrodiil usually has that distribution of players, except during events and the last day of the campaign where PvErs join for their rewards. There are no current builds that can tank 8+ players except for pure tanks. Therefore using LoS becomes a valid tactic to mitigate damage.

In every single one of my 1vX fights, NONE of my opponents were the one to take aggro first. I mean it’s a pretty simple concept. When you are around 20+ people of your alliance and you see 1 lone player of the opposite faction, what is the first thing you’d want to do? Well, you’d want to take him out for easy AP. That’s what happens in every single fight - a larger group sees one lone player, chases him down, falls for the LoS tactic, and dies one by one.

Some fights are easy, but some fights are super difficult where even 4 players can give you big trouble. It all depends on how good the bigger group is. But that’s the thrill of it.

Yeah I know it takes some skill, man. I didn't mean to sound like I think you guys are trash. You're not.

I do think that a lot of new players are highly impressed by these videos and if they'd go out there and try it, they'd find that it's not as god-like as it looks. It does take skill of course, but this game has a lot of positioning problems and fast melee classes with huge burst can really use LoS to take very very little damage.

Just for fun one day at an outpost on my magplar, i simply circled one of the columns with 5 or 6 newer players chasing me. That's all I did for like 10 minutes at least. Just running around the column. Didn't even bother changing direction or anything. Kept a HoT on myself, occasionally healed when I got stunned. My original plan was just to suicide out. But then I decided to have some fun with it and see how long I could survive just circling that post. It was trivial. I could have done it all day long. Eventually of course more and more players joined like angry hornets and I died.

One guy messaged me, super duper salty, calling me a trash pariah-wearing-perma-blocking-piece-of-human-filth and many other kind words. LOL. So I'm glad he had as much fun as I did! (btw, I wasn't even wearing pariah, or blocking, and had resto on backbar, not S/B. I think I did have Sithis on though)

Stx

I'm going to call out 1vXers on another thing.

I often see 1vX players call larger groups 'zerglings, thirsty, trash, potatoes' and other nasty names just because they are in a group and they are chasing them to kill them.

And yet AT THE SAME TIME, the entire 1vX playstyle literally revolves around poking a large group and then running away and HOPING players chase you, so you can pick them off.

I don't really understand that mindset. It seems really entitled and egotistical.

DucLIX

Stx wrote: »

I have never understood the hate you see some people post with regarding ball groups or just large groups in general.

Cyrodiil is designed around large groups... it's a large battlefield with sieges. Large group play should be encouraged, not demonized. If ball groups are killing you, get some guildies or start your own group, practice, get better. And try to take down that ball group...

It seems to me a lot of players that complain about ball groups are solo players or 1vXers who enjoy running around towers and rocks picking players off, and ball groups must ruin their plans. I don't know exactly, but they come off as entitled.

I don't understand it neither, I personnaly discovered ballgroup gameplay by looking at ZS in Cyrodiil and I found it so cool, instantly liked it.

And most of the people that are complaining about ballgroups are not really 1vX'er etc, mostly, it's the players that are playing in the faction zergs, in general you receive at least 1 or more rage whisper per raid, not by soloplayers or smallscalers (except the one that are attacking first and then complain about being killed by a group that is larger than their group ), but you receive them by players that are killed while they being in a mass of 30+ players, because you "cheated" etc and lot of injuries I can't quote here.

I tried to explain on forum for years on many different posts why ballgroups aren't the real big problem in pvp, but minds never changes, always the same things pointed by people.

I personally gave up on this, and just enjoy raids with guildmates without taking care of the constant hate.

MadeInVN

CharlieFreak wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Like i'm not impressed by 1vXers who think circling around rocks and killing noobs is some sort of achievement.

Yeah the 1vXers are quite funny and so proud of themselves on YouTube. "Here's me 1vXing, and I'll show you how to PvP at the highest levels."

And every single clip is basically a couple of very low rank opponents show up. He runs right into a tower, or makes a beeline for the nearest rock formation, and circles around until people get so bored/dizzy that they don't even bother rebuffing or healing - just chasing and trying to actually get a hit with their spammable.

Man, it's so boring IMO. I don't know how guys can do this for hours and hours every night. If that's what you like, I don't care, but I refuse to follow as soon as they run right into the tower.

Saw this last night in IC. There was some streamers baiting people, then running right into one of the buildings with stairs and here we go again - tower fight of LoS frustration.

And all of their 'best pvp tier lists" are based around this playstyle.

I’m a 1vXer, and I can say the same thing about players who mindlessly chase down 1 person.

Have you ever been in a fight where each side has equal numbers and everybody seems to be surviving well, then suddenly one side gets 10 more players and it becomes a steam roll? I have, and it’s so boring to spam light attacks and still kill someone because you have 10 more people with you.

When I 1vX, I get chased by 8+ players. Some are fresh meat. Some are semi experienced (20-30 AvA rank). Some are veterans (40+ AvA rank). Cyrodiil usually has that distribution of players, except during events and the last day of the campaign where PvErs join for their rewards. There are no current builds that can tank 8+ players except for pure tanks. Therefore using LoS becomes a valid tactic to mitigate damage.

In every single one of my 1vX fights, NONE of my opponents were the one to take aggro first. I mean it’s a pretty simple concept. When you are around 20+ people of your alliance and you see 1 lone player of the opposite faction, what is the first thing you’d want to do? Well, you’d want to take him out for easy AP. That’s what happens in every single fight - a larger group sees one lone player, chases him down, falls for the LoS tactic, and dies one by one.

Some fights are easy, but some fights are super difficult where even 4 players can give you big trouble. It all depends on how good the bigger group is. But that’s the thrill of it.

Yeah I know it takes some skill, man. I didn't mean to sound like I think you guys are trash. You're not.

I do think that a lot of new players are highly impressed by these videos and if they'd go out there and try it, they'd find that it's not as god-like as it looks. It does take skill of course, but this game has a lot of positioning problems and fast melee classes with huge burst can really use LoS to take very very little damage.

Just for fun one day at an outpost on my magplar, i simply circled one of the columns with 5 or 6 newer players chasing me. That's all I did for like 10 minutes at least. Just running around the column. Didn't even bother changing direction or anything. Kept a HoT on myself, occasionally healed when I got stunned. My original plan was just to suicide out. But then I decided to have some fun with it and see how long I could survive just circling that post. It was trivial. I could have done it all day long. Eventually of course more and more players joined like angry hornets and I died.

One guy messaged me, super duper salty, calling me a trash pariah-wearing-perma-blocking-piece-of-human-filth and many other kind words. LOL. So I'm glad he had as much fun as I did! (btw, I wasn't even wearing pariah, or blocking, and had resto on backbar, not S/B. I think I did have Sithis on though)

Yea it's easy to run circles around a tower with 5-6 people following you. That's why I don't excessively LoS against 5-6 new players. But when they get to 10-15 people then LoS becomes a necessity lol. They'll take up every inch of the tower to try and kill you. But that group size isn't feasible to 1vX nowadays unless they are in full PvE gear and spamming light attacks like during the IC event.

CharlieFreak

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

CharlieFreak wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Like i'm not impressed by 1vXers who think circling around rocks and killing noobs is some sort of achievement.

Yeah the 1vXers are quite funny and so proud of themselves on YouTube. "Here's me 1vXing, and I'll show you how to PvP at the highest levels."

And every single clip is basically a couple of very low rank opponents show up. He runs right into a tower, or makes a beeline for the nearest rock formation, and circles around until people get so bored/dizzy that they don't even bother rebuffing or healing - just chasing and trying to actually get a hit with their spammable.

Man, it's so boring IMO. I don't know how guys can do this for hours and hours every night. If that's what you like, I don't care, but I refuse to follow as soon as they run right into the tower.

Saw this last night in IC. There was some streamers baiting people, then running right into one of the buildings with stairs and here we go again - tower fight of LoS frustration.

And all of their 'best pvp tier lists" are based around this playstyle.

I’m a 1vXer, and I can say the same thing about players who mindlessly chase down 1 person.

Have you ever been in a fight where each side has equal numbers and everybody seems to be surviving well, then suddenly one side gets 10 more players and it becomes a steam roll? I have, and it’s so boring to spam light attacks and still kill someone because you have 10 more people with you.

When I 1vX, I get chased by 8+ players. Some are fresh meat. Some are semi experienced (20-30 AvA rank). Some are veterans (40+ AvA rank). Cyrodiil usually has that distribution of players, except during events and the last day of the campaign where PvErs join for their rewards. There are no current builds that can tank 8+ players except for pure tanks. Therefore using LoS becomes a valid tactic to mitigate damage.

In every single one of my 1vX fights, NONE of my opponents were the one to take aggro first. I mean it’s a pretty simple concept. When you are around 20+ people of your alliance and you see 1 lone player of the opposite faction, what is the first thing you’d want to do? Well, you’d want to take him out for easy AP. That’s what happens in every single fight - a larger group sees one lone player, chases him down, falls for the LoS tactic, and dies one by one.

Some fights are easy, but some fights are super difficult where even 4 players can give you big trouble. It all depends on how good the bigger group is. But that’s the thrill of it.

Yeah I know it takes some skill, man. I didn't mean to sound like I think you guys are trash. You're not.

I do think that a lot of new players are highly impressed by these videos and if they'd go out there and try it, they'd find that it's not as god-like as it looks. It does take skill of course, but this game has a lot of positioning problems and fast melee classes with huge burst can really use LoS to take very very little damage.

Just for fun one day at an outpost on my magplar, i simply circled one of the columns with 5 or 6 newer players chasing me. That's all I did for like 10 minutes at least. Just running around the column. Didn't even bother changing direction or anything. Kept a HoT on myself, occasionally healed when I got stunned. My original plan was just to suicide out. But then I decided to have some fun with it and see how long I could survive just circling that post. It was trivial. I could have done it all day long. Eventually of course more and more players joined like angry hornets and I died.

One guy messaged me, super duper salty, calling me a trash pariah-wearing-perma-blocking-piece-of-human-filth and many other kind words. LOL. So I'm glad he had as much fun as I did! (btw, I wasn't even wearing pariah, or blocking, and had resto on backbar, not S/B. I think I did have Sithis on though)

Yea it's easy to run circles around a tower with 5-6 people following you. That's why I don't excessively LoS against 5-6 new players. But when they get to 10-15 people then LoS becomes a necessity lol. They'll take up every inch of the tower to try and kill you. But that group size isn't feasible to 1vX nowadays unless they are in full PvE gear and spamming light attacks like during the IC event.

I just noticed your signature. Man... Most frustrating class to fight. You guys hit so hard, and darting around everywhere. That hit and run playstyle drives me nuts. It's like a housefly that's just too fast to kill it easily and it eventually drives you insane.

Oddly I have a stamsorc too, but it's not really my bag. Every time I fight a good stamsorc I feel inspired to play mine, and then I just can't duplicate that awesomeness. Guess I need to just play it more until I master it.