a lesson from WoW that ESO should probably look at (FF14 got this right btw)

Wing

"As for the Covenant campaign skip for alts and the ability to freely swap Covenants on alts, that change is one outgrowth of many ongoing discussions within the development team, focused on feedback that at times players feel that the WoW content they most enjoy is locked behind experiences that aren’t nearly as appealing to them. Some of that feedback revolves around different playstyles and content types, but a consistent theme is that experiences that were fun the first time through start to lose their luster on repeat playthroughs on alts, especially when required for power progression."

-Psijic
-Undaunted
-EVERY guild, though fighters levels the most passively
-Achievements (though not required for power progression.)
-etc.

FF14 avoids this with the job system, every player can level and switch between every "class" on a single character, THEY HAVE 18 JOBS btw with comparable depth to ESO classes, the only reason you would level an alt, is the DESIRE to level another character.

this, is why I and others want class change.

nobody wants class change as a feature because they cannot level another character to 50, that is not the problem.

I wonder if it will take a mass exodus of players and ESO experiencing unprecedented failure as well before we get some of these very basic requested features that were previously "impossible" to magickly become possible. . .I guess time will tell.

Fhritz

Honestly alt in eso aren't that bad, i mean we don't lose our cp. And remember, things in ESO work differently, you can play every role with any class and any gear, and I doubt so in FF14,. The system in FF14 is great, sure, but i don't think eso need a system like this at all (I'm not against a class change token tho, even if i don't see the point of this)

Gaebriel0410

I'm all for class change tokens, though I'd never use it myself. But Final Fantasy 14 and WoW are traditional MMO's and completely different games to ESO.

I've dabbled in FF14 now and then, and while it's a great traditional MMO game really, it's also the absolute worst game I've ever seen when it comes to alts. Nothing is account wide, not even stuff you purchase from their store, which is scandalous tbh, if you want a costume on two characters you have to pay them twice.

Though in one way ESO can take an example from their store, as everything is available all the time.Though I'm not a fan of a game with a mandatory sub having a huge store as well, that's too much double dipping for my liking.

I think jobs in FF14 aren't really comparible to classes in ESO, since in the former they're extremely static, if you have a black mage it will play exactly like every other black mage in the game, where ESO is the other end of the scale where characters can be very diverse with all the skill lines and gear sets. Unless you play fotm meta ofc, but meta is boring. On the other hand, as a consequence from how static they are, FF14 classes seem perfectly balanced, at least to my noob eye when I play it.

ESO should definitely take a good look at the Psijic skill line, doing it once is fine but doing that on alts is absolutely soul destroying, I think that's the only thing in ESO that felt like an unnecessary grind to me.

Speaking of guilds, I'd like lorebooks to be accountwide as well!

Sylvermynx

I love doing the Psijic quest line and reading lore books on all my many alts....

Jeirno

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

Jaimeh

I don't look particularly forward to doing the skill line grind, but I have done it on multiple alts, and it's not that bad. Especially on times when you don't know what to do in game, so you can relax by going around zones, and getting rifts/lore books/skyshards, etc., on an alt character, it's pretty relaxing. To each their own, but I like that each alt has their own identity.

danno8

I have no problem with class change token. But ESO character roles are very fluid compared to FF14.

My characters can cover any role they want by switching gear, skills and CP's and take on all but the most high-end content. In FF14 that is not the case. If you are a monk, you are DPS, that's it. Gladiator is a tank from level 1 and up. Period. If you try to do anything else, your group will fail.

Job switching in that game is a necessity otherwise you wind up with a shortage of tanks and healers, which there always will be, but it's not so bad-maybe a 10 minute wait in queue for the dungeon finder over there for most dungeons.

I find the dungeon queue here to be about as long. Usually 5-10 minutes as DPS.

I think most people here when they talk about class change don't want it for the ability to go from tank to healer to DPS easily, they want it to chase the current meta and get the class that is the absolute best at the role. Which is fine with me, but not really necessary.

Wing

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

thats a dangerous position to hold, i recall a couple famous "if you dont like it dont buy it" comments. its always funny when those blow up in peoples face.

Ippokrates

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

And what is someone like TES and want to play TES Online to travel through whole Tamriel but somehow he is stuck with class system that has not much to do with TES lore?

Tandor

The game is fine as it is, its continuing success means it doesn't need to go scratching around other games looking for something to pinch from them. If you prefer those games to ESO then feel free to play them, but don't try and turn this game into a copy of them.

As for alts, I play them in order to experience the full levelling game with them, not so I can rush off to the crown store and buy a token which I can use to advance the game for me (under the masquerade of making it more like TES lore).

UGotBenched91

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

@Jeirno

It never hurts to compare games. People can criticize concepts ESO and compliment other games without having to abandon ship.

Ratzkifal

What ESO does better than WoW in this regard is that you don't need to catch up with your existing alts after a new expansion dropped. They will still be at max level and their gear will still be relevant.

But I do agree with the main point. Selling skips means admitting that the time spent on these activities is a chore and not enjoyable - and if it's a not enjoyable it has no place in a game in the first place.
ESO obviously only allows this once you have completed these activities at least once, so the proper argument in ESO's specific case is "selling skips means admitting doing this activity more than once is not enjoyable , so it shouldn't have to be done more than once in the first place".

Now that ZOS is selling these skips, they do not have any reason to make any of these skill lines less grindy anymore and future skill lines can get away with being even more grindy than that. Let it be known that if they go on that path, they are headed to the same dark place that WoW is in right now.

bmnoble

Wing wrote: »

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

thats a dangerous position to hold, i recall a couple famous "if you dont like it dont buy it" comments. its always funny when those blow up in peoples face.

If you don't like something not buying it is just common sense, most people will do a few minutes research before spending their money on a game. Its the reason I did not buy this game on release at the time I found i did not like what I saw so I didn't bother with it till later 2018, when I felt it improved enough for me to like it enough to buy it.

Those famous comments tend to appear once something has released and is failing to live up to the expectations they held for their product and the criticism starts rolling in.



As for class change tokens if they can make it happen I got no issue with it, not planning to use them myself though.

As for this mass exodus, we got quite a few WOW players turning up in ESO as well, that's not something exclusive to FF14.

corrosivechains

I honestly never thought there'd come a day where people would push for a "Pay to Not Play" model, but here we are.

Holy heck, here we are....

phaneub17_ESO

I prefer character identity. Even with the option to play multiple classes, each of my characters would stick with very limited options based on their background. I'm also a massive altaholic, one character who can do everything isn't going to cut it for me, I need a wide base with specific builds that match the character.

Jeirno

Ippokrates wrote: »

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

And what is someone like TES and want to play TES Online to travel through whole Tamriel but somehow he is stuck with class system that has not much to do with TES lore?

@Ippokrates TES and ESO are two different games made by two different studios, published by the same publisher sharing a lore/world, nothing else. IF you come to ESO thinking about Skyrim 2, well you are gonna get dissapointed. dont compare a single player game with a MMO.

Jeirno

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

@Jeirno

It never hurts to compare games. People can criticize concepts ESO and compliment other games without having to abandon ship.

@UGotBenched91

ye compare as you want but dont tell ZOS to take something from FF or WoW, best thing about these 3 diff games is that they are 3 different games, or do we want the mall to be the same copy pasta like call of duty lol

wishlist14

corrosivechains wrote: »

I honestly never thought there'd come a day where people would push for a "Pay to Not Play" model, but here we are.

Holy heck, here we are....

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 🖒🖒🖒

SilverBride

Wing wrote: »

I wonder if it will take a mass exodus of players and ESO experiencing unprecedented failure as well before we get some of these very basic requested features that were previously "impossible" to magickly become possible. . .I guess time will tell.

I don't know any players who are leaving because they don't have a class change token. I personally would never use one because I enjoy creating new characters.

zelaminator

Given free choice, I'd take the Fallen Earth approach.. the only reason to make an alt was if you didn't want to change faction, or didn't want to change skills between roles.. There were no classes.. Everyone could access the same skills, so you just had to choose

Sephyr

bmnoble wrote: »

As for this mass exodus, we got quite a few WOW players turning up in ESO as well, that's not something exclusive to FF14.

So, you're correct about it not being something exclusive to FFXIV, but you're probably unaware of some of the recent things happening in their neck of the woods.

With the Endwalker expansion right around the corner, Asmongold and other bulk streamers gathering on Aether, and the semi-conductor shortage — Square's set that data center to congested. This isn't their normal "server is full" thing. This is an entire data center. That's eight servers closed from new character creation. Due to the shortage, COVID, they were able to get some of their data centers to a login rate of 18,000 simultaneously, but it's not enough and more upgrades are needed because of how many new players they're getting and retaining.

ESO? It'll benefit, sure. Every MMO will. Just not "shut character creation down, there are just too many players" levels of benefiting. Others may disagree, but feel free to find the article where this is happening to ESO amid the WoW crisis. I genuinely would love to read them.

Ratzkifal

Jeirno wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

@Jeirno

It never hurts to compare games. People can criticize concepts ESO and compliment other games without having to abandon ship.

@UGotBenched91

ye compare as you want but dont tell ZOS to take something from FF or WoW, best thing about these 3 diff games is that they are 3 different games, or do we want the mall to be the same copy pasta like call of duty lol

They are three different games alright and there are definitely things that work for one game but don't for the other (flying mounts).
That doesn't mean all ideas coming from other games are bad though. There are certainly things worth taking from other games into this one and it's not like this hasn't already been done. People always seem to think that game developers live in a bubble and only look at their own stuff, but take Final Fantasy as an example. Before they made A Realm Reborn their devs were told to play WoW to see what ideas were and weren't working there and it made Final Fantasy a better game for it.
And WoW saw how successful ESO was with abandoning zone level, so they emulated that on a smaller scale by making several zones scale to the same level, making them alternative areas rather than consecutive areas to get through on your way to max level and it made WoW better for it.

I don't play FF or WoW, so I can't comment on anything specific, but I am willing to bet there is something in those games that could make ESO better if taken over.

Aelsioln

I don't see how Covenants can be compared to classes. What WoW is doing there is more like allowing players to skip a questline that previously was necessary to advance your alt character at all.

For the Guild skill lines that may be annoying (looking at you, Mage's Guild) ESO already has it set up that when you max the skill line once you can then pay Crowns to max it on a different character.

Eiagra

Meh. No sexy orcs over in FF14 land. I'll pass.

I've seen a lot of people having fun with FF14, and I'm glad they have something different that works for them. That's important -- if all MMOs were the same and not trying new things, the genre would stagnate (think of the days of WoW clones). That said, asking a different MMO to change to "what works" is also asking to homogenize the genre and introduce stagnation.

Let the devteams do what they will with the games they're working on. All games don't have to be all things to all players. It's okay if there's a mix of philosophies and development vision. Be excited about the features you love in the games you have fun with. Ponder opportunities for improvement where you see them. But if you have a really want to remix what you observe as cool and fun, go by the adage, "If you want something done right, do it yourself" -- take courses that will get you onto a devteam (or gain the skills to form your own) and build that dream from the inside.

Ippokrates

Jeirno wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

And what is someone like TES and want to play TES Online to travel through whole Tamriel but somehow he is stuck with class system that has not much to do with TES lore?

@Ippokrates TES and ESO are two different games made by two different studios, published by the same publisher sharing a lore/world, nothing else. IF you come to ESO thinking about Skyrim 2, well you are gonna get dissapointed. dont compare a single player game with a MMO.

Sure, but ESO do not exist in vacuum and since the beginning ZOS intensively appeal to TES fanbase making a lot of their content reflect a previous games like Morrowind, Skyrim and now Oblivion. So no, i don't think that your attitude to "consuuuume" whatever they gave you is a right approach, especially in so tricky genre as MMO (btw. in last few interviews they were avoiding this term, using rather online rpg).

Skyrim would be long dead by now if not modders. If you expect from ZOS that they would cover their ears and start yelling lalalalala, trying to desperately avoid and form of feedback and god forbidden change, the future might not be to kind to this game and its community

Sarannah

Having stuff to do/look forward to is a good thing, especially in MMO's which are meant to hook players for a long time. Years, or even decades. At the moment I have so much to do in-game, that I barely even know where to start. And I love that!

Turning this game into another MMO is bad, that is when the game would lose their players. As the first game that used a feature, usually ends up doing it the best.

People should stop looking at other MMO's, just let ESO be ESO, and improve on that.

PS: I'm against class change, just build a new character.

Blinx

I quit FF to come here, left my lev 73 white mage in the dust, a little over a year ago.
You can't really compare the mind numbing MQ of FF to ESO.
FF MQ takes a long time to complete(this is the sole reason people buy a skip) you can do a characters Alliance quest line in about a week plus here
Oh and that pretty vista in the distance in FF, you can't explore it until you've cleared a dungeon, or some group content, where as here you can pretty much go anywhere you damn please.
FF is full of zombies, people go to work or whatever and leave their toons parked online because you get some "rested experience" as long as your in a sanctuary.
I much prefer ESO, the only areas I feel it's lacking is character customization, and slow to fix bugs/glitches, and the lack of an auction house/trade board.

***I personally wouldn't use a class change token, but I don't see why it shouldn't be an option***

six2fall

Best we can hope for is a class change token. This only has a chance because they would be able to sell it like everything else.

Fhritz

Eiagra wrote: »

Meh. No sexy orcs over in FF14 land. I'll pass.

I've seen a lot of people having fun with FF14, and I'm glad they have something different that works for them. That's important -- if all MMOs were the same and not trying new things, the genre would stagnate (think of the days of WoW clones). That said, asking a different MMO to change to "what works" is also asking to homogenize the genre and introduce stagnation.

Let the devteams do what they will with the games they're working on. All games don't have to be all things to all players. It's okay if there's a mix of philosophies and development vision. Be excited about the features you love in the games you have fun with. Ponder opportunities for improvement where you see them. But if you have a really want to remix what you observe as cool and fun, go by the adage, "If you want something done right, do it yourself" -- take courses that will get you onto a devteam (or gain the skills to form your own) and build that dream from the inside.

You dropped this king

Sephyr

Eiagra wrote: »

Meh. No sexy orcs over in FF14 land. I'll pass.

Even though I don't know you, your reputation proceeds you. I've never seen a fair "I'll pass" on FFXIV such as this and I'm living for it. Have an awesome.

FlopsyPrince

Jeirno wrote: »

If you like FF go play FF, if you dont like ESO dont play ESO.

This is not productive advice.

Of course you should if you dislike enough things, but learning good things from other games is a way to improve the game. Just telling people to leave ultimately leads to what WoW is facing now.