I fixed the map, now it's ZOS's turn.

ealdwin

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The zone maps are accurate, the world map however is not, the arrogance of the High Elves may lead them to drawring their homeland on the map to be significantly larger then it actually is, on the world map Summerset appears to be as large as Vvardenfell, the truth is however its about the half the size but the High Elves wont admit it, we do see this problem on RL maps as well, observe....



Shocking isn't it, it seems the World Map of Tamriel suffers from the exact same problem, the biggest sinner would be none other then Craglorn which appears huge on the Tamriel map but the zone map says otherwise, if your going to scale Tamriel it is best to do it using the zone maps and not the Tamriel map because the zone maps are accurate.

The interesting thing with IRL world maps is that different projections have different distortions depending on how each may chose to depict a round world in a flat or rectangular manner. It's quite impossible to have an accurate flat map because distortion will happen somewhere or gaps will exist. The one that more recently gets criticized—the Mercator—was designed with navigation (by sea) in mind, and as a result became a widely used standard map. The distortions that exist are because of the stretching out of landmass further from the equator, largely to preserve bearings. Since most of several continents lies North of the equator, those continents saw more distortion. If you look at countries like Argentina, Australia, and France, the relative padding caused by distortion seems about even. You can even quite literally see the equator on the map when comparing distortions. Even the Gall-Peters has distortion as it stretches out the north-south regions more so in the horizontal direction. Several map organizations have apparently adopted resolutions against using rectangular maps as general representations of the world—due to those distortions.

The issue with the distortions on Tamriel's map is that there isn't the usual clear reasoning or logic behind the distortions to indicate an interpretation of a spherical area to a rectangular area that ends up in some distortions. The distortions seem to occur along a curved band stretching from NE to SW, warping the shapes and locations of Morrowind, Skyrim, Hammerfell, and the Summerset Isles. Even when theorizing potential political motives, the distortions don't make sense. The world map in ESO is just inaccurate, with likely no lore reason behind it.

zelaminator

BroughBreaux wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

So whether a map works well, is what separates DLC from Chapters.?

Yes, if there isn't enough space to fit a chapter on the wrong and botched map, it won't be made a chapter.

zelaminator wrote: »

I think you'll find more people annoyed by floating hip plates, than by a map with some inaccuracies

Here's an idea: they can fix both.

1 So the zone, not whether how it looks on a map

2 Ofc they should fix both.. I never said otherwise.. I just say that I hope they fix other things first

Chips_Ahoy

What if the old maps are wrong and this is the correct one?

Vevvev

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SpaceElf wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Already commented on this in another thread. This is amazing and even though it's not perfect yet it's already a major improvement and that it just took you 5 hours shows that this issue really should have been fixed already, especially since ZOS seems to be using the bad map as the base when making a zone.

Also going to tag @ZOS_Kevin because this is a long-standing issue that has only been met with bad or no communication so far. The only official statement we got was "the map looks bad because Tamriel's in-lore map makers are bad" and while that might be perfectly reasonable, it isn't an excuse for why we players should have an inaccurate map and even less of an excuse why ZOS should use an inaccurate map as a base for making a new zone.

I think this edited map looks beautiful, but as a cartographer, maps are always going to have to compromise on at least one of these aspects: Distance, size, scale, area, or shape. Maps are inherently inaccurate by their limitations - spreading a three-dimensional object on a 2D plane will cause distortion. Combine that with what is likely primitive cartographic techniques that likely fit lore, and it makes sense for it to be off, and it's not necessarily a poor choice in design to go that route. Granted, this assumes Nirn is a sphere or ellipsoid.

I've always wondered what coordinate system or projection would work well for this world, to be honest.

There are valid arguments to be made for the design decisions taken by ZoS, is all I am saying.

As the saying goes, the best map is... a globe.

We don't even know if Nirn is flat or a sphere! It's likely a sphere simply because of all the weird effects that appear in flat geometry, like ships never disappearing behind the horizon, but what we don't know is Nirn's true size and how much it curves and thus we also don't know how much it distorts on a map. Telling us how large the Nirn is would also demystify the world a bit, so I'm not sure I'd even want to know the answer to that.

We actually know what it is and it's neither, it's a fabric woven in on itself. So it's more like a cylinder or a ring with the other side of it being a mirror of Tamriel. Elder Scrolls lore only partially mentions it but the reverse continent of Tamriel on the other side is called Lyg.

Sephyr

BroughBreaux wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

So whether a map works well, is what separates DLC from Chapters.?

Yes, if there isn't enough space to fit a chapter on the wrong and botched map, it won't be made a chapter.

zelaminator wrote: »

I think you'll find more people annoyed by floating hip plates, than by a map with some inaccuracies

Here's an idea: they can fix both.

Agreed. Something that the person you're responding to doesn't understand is that they can fix both, but one can extend the longevity of content rollout and the other is just a fashion opinion that derails the current thread. Thank goodness for a specific function on the forum that filters it out for me.

SeaGtGruff

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SpaceElf wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Already commented on this in another thread. This is amazing and even though it's not perfect yet it's already a major improvement and that it just took you 5 hours shows that this issue really should have been fixed already, especially since ZOS seems to be using the bad map as the base when making a zone.

Also going to tag @ZOS_Kevin because this is a long-standing issue that has only been met with bad or no communication so far. The only official statement we got was "the map looks bad because Tamriel's in-lore map makers are bad" and while that might be perfectly reasonable, it isn't an excuse for why we players should have an inaccurate map and even less of an excuse why ZOS should use an inaccurate map as a base for making a new zone.

I think this edited map looks beautiful, but as a cartographer, maps are always going to have to compromise on at least one of these aspects: Distance, size, scale, area, or shape. Maps are inherently inaccurate by their limitations - spreading a three-dimensional object on a 2D plane will cause distortion. Combine that with what is likely primitive cartographic techniques that likely fit lore, and it makes sense for it to be off, and it's not necessarily a poor choice in design to go that route. Granted, this assumes Nirn is a sphere or ellipsoid.

I've always wondered what coordinate system or projection would work well for this world, to be honest.

There are valid arguments to be made for the design decisions taken by ZoS, is all I am saying.

As the saying goes, the best map is... a globe.

We don't even know if Nirn is flat or a sphere! It's likely a sphere simply because of all the weird effects that appear in flat geometry, like ships never disappearing behind the horizon, but what we don't know is Nirn's true size and how much it curves and thus we also don't know how much it distorts on a map. Telling us how large the Nirn is would also demystify the world a bit, so I'm not sure I'd even want to know the answer to that.

We actually know what it is and it's neither, it's a fabric woven in on itself. So it's more like a cylinder or a ring with the other side of it being a mirror of Tamriel. Elder Scrolls lore only partially mentions it but the reverse continent of Tamriel on the other side is called Lyg.

I hadn't heard that, but it's interesting, because I have a theory that perhaps Tamriel had originally been planned as a mirror image of the way we know it.

zelaminator

Sephyr wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

So whether a map works well, is what separates DLC from Chapters.?

Yes, if there isn't enough space to fit a chapter on the wrong and botched map, it won't be made a chapter.

zelaminator wrote: »

I think you'll find more people annoyed by floating hip plates, than by a map with some inaccuracies

Here's an idea: they can fix both.

Agreed. Something that the person you're responding to doesn't understand is that they can fix both, but one can extend the longevity of content rollout and the other is just a fashion opinion that derails the current thread. Thank goodness for a specific function on the forum that filters it out for me.

I love how you try to give the impression that you know my mind I say again, I am not against it getting fixed, at all.. I just think that there are more important things to fix before the map.. Neither did I ever say that they could not work at both things at the same time.. If they are like any other team, they are probably very used to having multiple projects going on

kojou

I would attribute it to the lack of accuracy when the original Nord surveyors using Dwemer artifact based Theodolites. They were later proved to be much less accurate than Sotha Sil's clockwork based ones which were used to draw the current ESO based maps by Danynth Fyr. The Dunmeri survey crew were also able to project stronger beams to measure with due to their affinity to fire based magic which also contributed to much more accurate angle and distance measurements.

Sotha Sil is currently working on GPS based locators, but as we know that project was cut short by his untimely demise and the technology was lost.

Ratzkifal

Vevvev wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

SpaceElf wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Already commented on this in another thread. This is amazing and even though it's not perfect yet it's already a major improvement and that it just took you 5 hours shows that this issue really should have been fixed already, especially since ZOS seems to be using the bad map as the base when making a zone.

Also going to tag @ZOS_Kevin because this is a long-standing issue that has only been met with bad or no communication so far. The only official statement we got was "the map looks bad because Tamriel's in-lore map makers are bad" and while that might be perfectly reasonable, it isn't an excuse for why we players should have an inaccurate map and even less of an excuse why ZOS should use an inaccurate map as a base for making a new zone.

I think this edited map looks beautiful, but as a cartographer, maps are always going to have to compromise on at least one of these aspects: Distance, size, scale, area, or shape. Maps are inherently inaccurate by their limitations - spreading a three-dimensional object on a 2D plane will cause distortion. Combine that with what is likely primitive cartographic techniques that likely fit lore, and it makes sense for it to be off, and it's not necessarily a poor choice in design to go that route. Granted, this assumes Nirn is a sphere or ellipsoid.

I've always wondered what coordinate system or projection would work well for this world, to be honest.

There are valid arguments to be made for the design decisions taken by ZoS, is all I am saying.

As the saying goes, the best map is... a globe.

We don't even know if Nirn is flat or a sphere! It's likely a sphere simply because of all the weird effects that appear in flat geometry, like ships never disappearing behind the horizon, but what we don't know is Nirn's true size and how much it curves and thus we also don't know how much it distorts on a map. Telling us how large the Nirn is would also demystify the world a bit, so I'm not sure I'd even want to know the answer to that.

We actually know what it is and it's neither, it's a fabric woven in on itself. So it's more like a cylinder or a ring with the other side of it being a mirror of Tamriel. Elder Scrolls lore only partially mentions it but the reverse continent of Tamriel on the other side is called Lyg.

I think that is less about the shape of the planet and more about reality itself. Lyg has been referred to as an "adjacent place", so it's not as simple as a mirror continent on the other side of a flat world. Lyg could be from a previous kalpa, it could also be in a different realm than mundus, but it could also very well still be an actual continent on Nirn. But discussing that stuff in detail is definitely outside of the scope of this thread and would probably belong in the lore section. Especially considering that planets appear to be spherical due to mortal mental stress, which is probably also true for Nirn.
Regardless, in universe Nirn is a place and a map of it can be drawn (more) accurately (than now). Out of universe the world exists in on a flat checkerboard plane that the developers build terrain on, so if we'd try to depict these areas accurately it would be possible without distortions since the geometry of it is flat.

Ratzkifal

kojou wrote: »

I would attribute it to the lack of accuracy when the original Nord surveyors using Dwemer artifact based Theodolites. They were later proved to be much less accurate than Sotha Sil's clockwork based ones which were used to draw the current ESO based maps by Danynth Fyr. The Dunmeri survey crew were also able to project stronger beams to measure with due to their affinity to fire based magic which also contributed to much more accurate angle and distance measurements.

Sotha Sil is currently working on GPS based locators, but as we know that project was cut short by his untimely demise and the technology was lost.

Hope Seht is getting done with that within a mortal life time then

Supreme_Atromancer

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Which map is "most accurate"? Arena was the first TES game, so shouldn't Arena's map carry the greatest weight? Have the later maps been compared and contrasted to Arena's to see how they stack up?

And we know that there have been at least a few geographical (nirnographical?) changes, such as the changes in and around Winterhold. Also cities have been moved and their spellings have changes.

Then there are all the changes in the flora, fauna, and people-- the changes in Argonians, Khajiiti, Orcs, Mudcrabs, Nix Hounds, and so on, from game to game.

I think it's best to let each game have its own identity and not get bent out of shape about things like one game's map being, well, bent out of the exact shape of another game's map. But that's just me.

I think "most accurate" is essentially most recent; Arena's Tamriel has vast scope, but is very low-res. As each successive game has brought into focus its particular region, small retcons have been introduced in order to make that world real. Such changes (for example, TES5's retconning of Markarth Side) can be controversial because the installed fanbase invested their stories and their "reading the world" (which is an important element of Elder Scrolls games) on the older interpretations, and so those changes make their headcanons, their stories irrelevant. So I think its safe to say that, like other franchises for which lore is a major selling point, people kind of want them to take care with such choices.

ZOS' mandate isn't to create a new or retconned vision of the world, but to deliver "the world you already know and love, but *all of it*". They obviously have some creative space for stuff we've never seen before in a mainline game, but the fact that they know how important it is to get *known* Tamriel right is highlighted by the astoundingly good job they did matching Western Skyrim or Vvardenfell to Bethesda's versions. Arguments about "changing geography/thousand years" are kind of absurd in the context of IDENTICAL Seyda Neen and Solitude Windmill - they're poorly thought-out excuses for botching stuff, not deliberate design choices for the sake of versimilitude.

If the map were just a UI device, we could all laugh at how shoddy it is and move on. But for the loreseekers and the people that are here to explore Tamriel, its a statement about ZOS' competence and understanding of the world. We know from the lore, and have dreamed about exploring places like Breton Jehanna on the Sea of Ghosts just across from Skyrim; The Western Reach; The Velothi Highlands; Torval, Corinthe and Alabaster. We know that Kragenmoor is just across from Cheydinhal and Blacklight was tantilisingly close to Windhelm. We wonder what these places are like, and how much their proximity to other places effect their stories. When all we have is a map that gets a lot of stuff really wrong and just plain weird, ZOS is telling us they don't get how Tamriel works, that they will just simply forget certain places that we know exist in this time, and that doesn't demonstrate a genuine care for the handling of the world we love.

APGaming

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The zone maps are accurate, the world map however is not, the arrogance of the High Elves may lead them to drawring their homeland on the map to be significantly larger then it actually is, on the world map Summerset appears to be as large as Vvardenfell, the truth is however its about the half the size but the High Elves wont admit it, we do see this problem on RL maps as well, observe....



Shocking isn't it, it seems the World Map of Tamriel suffers from the exact same problem, the biggest sinner would be none other then Craglorn which appears huge on the Tamriel map but the zone map says otherwise, if your going to scale Tamriel it is best to do it using the zone maps and not the Tamriel map because the zone maps are accurate.

I actually did exactly this using satellite/development maps but I can't figure out how to attach pictures. (I never use the forums)

For now, these twitter links should work:

https://twitter.com/APGaming17/status/1422061270833025026

https://twitter.com/APGaming17/status/1428556985985810434