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Reach 50 What is the Point?

Wanakanabe
So I reached 50. Confused on how scaling works and where is the fun. It doesn't seem there is a goal to work towards other than more leveling. On my journey to 50, I thought the mobs would be more challenging as I progressed and the past mobs would get easier, you know as I gain power, I am advancing/accomplishing something. At 50 levels in, I don't feel like I accomplished anything. I made an Alt that is level 4 and he can solo delves and dolmens and pretty much everything my 50 can. So at 50, I am still really just a level 4 in level 50 armor. End game as far as I can tell is everyone bragging about beating up a training dummy for parses and getting the gear to do it. Is that it, am I missing something? How hard is it to get those next 160 levels, so do the levels take as long per level as the first levels to get to 50?
I enjoyed the story to 50, it was quite overwhelming as to where to go and what to do but as far as fighting, there really wasn't anywhere I couldn't go, no place made me feel like it was something I might not be able to handle. 160 levels sounds daunting and boring and to only end up looking pretty and brag about beating up a dummy doesn't sound appealing.
  • JoDiMageio
    JoDiMageio
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    Nope, seems like you have understood perfectly.
    (Excuse my cynicism).

    You'll have to figure out what brings you the most enjoyment, and invest in that. Could be chasing achievements, could be housing, could be training for trifecta achievements, but if you do a little research on the forums, you'll see that overland is easy. The hard stuff is in groups. Looking for a sense of accomplishment in overland content (ie beating bosses) is not where you'll find it.

    Veteran dungeons, trials (normal and vet) might be what you'll want to look in to, and for normal most groups require at least CP160 (some 300), and for vet content there are progression groups that each have their own requirements (CP, gear, roles, etc.). The mechs are much more interesting and challenging in group content like that.
    Edited by JoDiMageio on August 23, 2021 2:23PM
  • Wanakanabe
    jaws343 wrote: »
    Go take your level 50 or level 4 into Vet Fang Lair solo or any vet dungeon/arena for that matter before disparaging end game players.

    sorry not my intention to disparage anyone. Just trying to find something that I can look forward to
  • Wanakanabe
    Appreciate all the comments, you all have all given me some insight as to what I can look forward to. Seems there is more than I first thought. Going to formulate a plan and decide what direction I want to head to first as I progress. Thank You
  • etchedpixels
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    I think you forget that if you tried to solo a dungeon at level 4 when you first started playing you'd have been pasted. It's not just that your character has changed your skill level has likewise. And yes - once you've played the game a bit you can do the non DLC dungeons solo, or in underpants but if they were harder then new players would have nowhere to learn.

    (For that matter after a while you can do the easier veteran dungeons in underpants too)

    As to where to go - depends on play style. There is a huge amount of quest content and you can find most of the ones you missed with the zone guide off map (not all some seem to be missing - not sure if that's a bug or a feature). There is PvP, and a whole ton of end game trials and the like if that rocks your boat. And there's fishing.. although quite why anyone wants to fish all of tamriel and get a boat thing for their house still eludes me 8)
    Too many toons not enough time
  • Everest_Lionheart
    Everest_Lionheart
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    Wanakanabe wrote: »
    Appreciate all the comments, you all have all given me some insight as to what I can look forward to. Seems there is more than I first thought. Going to formulate a plan and decide what direction I want to head to first as I progress. Thank You

    One thing I will say though is don’t be too shy to join groups or ask for help. The number of helpful players far exceeds the number of toxic players. Normally I’m trying to burn through some of these group encounters as fast a possible because I cycle through many characters to earn more rewards but if I see a group is leaning or stuck on some mechanic I will reach out to offer help. I’m not bothered to lose an hour teaching DLC dungeon mechs if it will make players better for it. That’s how we all learned the game at some point. Or riding across the map to help someone with a tough WB or taking a random player through several public dungeon group events to get them the extra skill points needed to unlock more of their skills. I might even craft someone some purple training gear or some overland body sets like Hundings, Julianos or DV for free.

    As for farming the CP these is no need to race for it but you should know it does slow down at some point. Some content will be gated by the power creep that comes with CP as well, but CP is merely a currency which you will use to buy perks and perks = power. You can change your CP allocation anytime for a small fee of 3K gold. You make 5K daily if you do all of your crafting writs so it’s not expensive at all. The new tree is a bit more complicated but there are guides on what to use. 99% of players use the same configuration anyway, so even though the choices seem overwhelming in reality they aren’t. Just do some research on the tree before going to crazy with your points. It’s better to focus them into specific passives/slotables rather than to spread them too thin.

    Anyway good luck.
  • Ippokrates
    Ippokrates
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    The whole point of "new player experience" progression in ESO is to not overwhelmed players with new system, so you are starting with very limited number of skills but instead you have a lot of health, stamina & magicka plus if I remember correctly from UESP, if you do not have any other char with CP, costs of your skills should be much smaller - so in result you can travel through Tamriel, enjoy the content, run through dungeons & battlegrounds with other players, and do not care to much about your survivability.

    The real fun start once you reach lvl 160 CP - then you can start to collect and end gamę equipment, including arena stuff. And that could be challenging for a new player. Especially Vateshran :D
    Edited by Ippokrates on August 23, 2021 5:17PM
  • SirAndy
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    Yes, at level 50 you'll be weaker than at level 4 because level scaling has carried you from 1-50 so you wouldn't die horribly to the first mudcrab you encountered (That actually was a thing during beta).

    Getting from 50 to CP160 is pretty quick and CP160 is where you want to be. That is the cap for gear levels, meaning after you reach CP160 any gear you find will always be usable and you will never again outlevel it.

    As for what to do:
    You need to find your carrot, ZOS already gave you the stick


    For me end game is soloing group content. I like to tinker with different classes/gear/specs and see which one of my characters i can push the farthest into the realm of group content.
    post-2-1445282250.gif

    Edited by SirAndy on August 23, 2021 4:45PM
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    SirAndy wrote: »
    Yes, at level 50 you'll be weaker than at level 4 because level scaling has carried you from 1-50 so you wouldn't die horribly to the first mudcrab you encountered (That actually was a thing during beta).

    That brings back memories lol. I remember fighting that mudcrab boss for the first time during that period in the games history. Until you out leveled it the thing was the most fearsome mudcrab in Tamriel.
    PC NA
    Ceyanna Ashton - Breton MagDK
  • moo_2021
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    try craglorn, dungeon finder or pvp. Many requires skills that you couldn't have on lower levels.
  • Wanakanabe
    I think the biggest thing here that made me the happiest was that scaling drops off at lvl 50, I did not know this and it sounds great that I will actually be seeing improvement as I get to 160. Just want to feel like I am advancing
  • Vhozek
    Vhozek
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    Wanakanabe wrote: »
    So I reached 50. Confused on how scaling works and where is the fun. It doesn't seem there is a goal to work towards other than more leveling. On my journey to 50, I thought the mobs would be more challenging as I progressed and the past mobs would get easier, you know as I gain power, I am advancing/accomplishing something. At 50 levels in, I don't feel like I accomplished anything. I made an Alt that is level 4 and he can solo delves and dolmens and pretty much everything my 50 can. So at 50, I am still really just a level 4 in level 50 armor. End game as far as I can tell is everyone bragging about beating up a training dummy for parses and getting the gear to do it. Is that it, am I missing something? How hard is it to get those next 160 levels, so do the levels take as long per level as the first levels to get to 50?
    I enjoyed the story to 50, it was quite overwhelming as to where to go and what to do but as far as fighting, there really wasn't anywhere I couldn't go, no place made me feel like it was something I might not be able to handle. 160 levels sounds daunting and boring and to only end up looking pretty and brag about beating up a dummy doesn't sound appealing.

    Welcome to the daily discussion that is progression and game difficulty. It is an every day topic. No progress has been made towards fixing this issue ever. You will also be told to play the game naked if you want a challenge.. oh and think of the new players.
    SMELT THE HAMMER AND SICKLE FOR PROFIT!
  • theyancey
    theyancey
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    This is an Elder Scrolls story game. While I would enjoy more opportunities for character development I am in it primarily for the lore
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    End game pretty much consists of three things:

    1. Veteran PVE Content (can be very challenging), but outside of the two arenas, it is pretty much all designed with a group in mind. If you think the game is easy, take your level 50 into vet maelstrom and call us in the morning.

    2. PVP. Self explanatory. This game is highly skill based, with a deep learning curve. When it's working, PVP is great in this game, but it's certainly not for everyone. The performance does leave something to be desired (understatement of the century).

    3. Some sort of housing/RP combo. This part never interested me much, but some people seem to love it.

    If none of those interest you, you will do what a lot of people do and lose interest after the main story. That is okay, MMOs arent for everyone. My advise is to give PVE dungeons a try (on normal). Start by working on a reasonable build. It certainly does not have to be min/maxed, but it should at least pass the smell test. If you are inclined to do so, then yes, beat on a dummy for a bit for some practice. No, Dummies are not endgame, but they are a useful tool for end game.

    Sidebar: There is a reason a lot of end game guilds require a dummy parse to join, it's a very effective screening tool. Anyone that says different probably has lousy DPS. There is no such thing as a person that pulls high DPS in content but cant do it on a dummy. The notion that High DPS players cant follow mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players who are incapable of doing damage themselves.
    Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - 2,000+ CP

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Khajiit, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Bear Shot First - Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Khajiit
    NBs: Bears Crafter - Bosmer, Bearblade - Khajiit, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Orc, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer (DC)
    Necros: Bearomancer - Dunmer, ßearßones - Orc, Bearona Virus - Breton

    vKAHM, vSSHM, vCR+3, vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vBRP, vDSA, DD, TTT, Flawless Conqueror-All Classes, Spirit Slayer, Grand Overlord

    Speed Caps Explained

    EasyMode Tank/DPS Build for Fast Random Normals
  • Supreme_Atromancer
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    @Wanakanabe its a clunky, unintuitive system that is the product of a bunch of different levelling systems sort of just built on top of over the years. Unfortunately, 50 levels are just an arbitrary point you have to get to before progressing to an entirely different levelling system. Much the same as cp160 is just an arbitrary amount of CP you have to get to before gear cap.
  • Kiralyn2000
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    A lot of this is an artifact of how the game began, and then changed.

    In the beginning, it was like a regular MMO, with a level range for each zone. You played through your faction's 5-zone story and then the Coldharbor climax, and you were 50!

    But people wanted to Experience Everything, so they added the ability to play through the other two factions, along with Veteran Levels 1-16 (you'd go through the second faction, getting into mid-Vet; then the third faction to V16)

    But people didn't like being walled off from playing with their friends (since you were instanced to whichever faction & playthrough, etc) And TES lets you go wherever and do whatever in whichever order!

    So they changed the game to just let you go anywhere, out of order. And changed Vet Levels to Champion Points, with things to spend them on. And to do that, they just scaled the entire world to the level cap: lv50/160CP.

    So everything is 'the same level'. And you can't outlevel old zones or dungeons. And they don't up the level cap every Big Expansion, invalidating all your old gear. And a variety of other things that make it different than a standard MMO.

    (I probably got some small details of timing wrong, but the general idea should be close. ;) )
  • Watchdog
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    End game pretty much consists of three things:

    3. Some sort of housing/RP combo. This part never interested me much, but some people seem to love it.

    Indeed.

    Housing and fashion are the true endgame of ESO. Seriously, do you know how much completed content, resources and time they require? ;)

    Member of Alith Legion: https://www.alithlegion.com
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Watchdog wrote: »
    End game pretty much consists of three things:

    3. Some sort of housing/RP combo. This part never interested me much, but some people seem to love it.

    Indeed.

    Housing and fashion are the true endgame of ESO. Seriously, do you know how much completed content, resources and time they require? ;)

    Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. LOL
    Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - 2,000+ CP

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Khajiit, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Bear Shot First - Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Khajiit
    NBs: Bears Crafter - Bosmer, Bearblade - Khajiit, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Orc, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer (DC)
    Necros: Bearomancer - Dunmer, ßearßones - Orc, Bearona Virus - Breton

    vKAHM, vSSHM, vCR+3, vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vBRP, vDSA, DD, TTT, Flawless Conqueror-All Classes, Spirit Slayer, Grand Overlord

    Speed Caps Explained

    EasyMode Tank/DPS Build for Fast Random Normals
  • SkaraMinoc
    SkaraMinoc
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    You're still doing the tutorial until you reach CP160, then the game begins.
    Skara Minoc, Bash Sorc | PC NA
    RIP Deathmatch Queue, September 2021 - March 2022, You Will Be Remembered
  • ghastley
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    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    You're still doing the tutorial until you reach CP160, then the game begins.

    That being the point where you can equip any gear you make or find.
  • HumbleThaumaturge
    HumbleThaumaturge
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    For me, the original ESO leveling system at launch (which ended with "One Tamriel") was much, much, much, much, much more fun, challenging, rewarding. It was also much more difficult, which made it even more fun, challenging, and rewarding. I am so very glad I was able to play ESO per its original design. I wish Microsoft would release a single-player version of the game as it was at launch (with the bugs fixed, of course), with just the 15 Alliance zones and the associated training islands. That would be fun!

    Comparison: As the game was originally designed (at launch) it took me more than 100 hours to get my first character to level 50 (completing all the Aldmeri Dominion alliance zone quests and the Main Quest). Now players get to level 50 in under an hour. Quite frankly, the original design was much more fun.

    Well, ESO is what it is now. At level 50, you have a lot more fun ahead of you. Sadly, the overland PvE content is no longer difficult enough to be challenging, except maybe a worldboss fight. If you are not having difficulty running the PvE content, and if you want to get CP more quickly, get a complete set of gear with Training trait on all pieces. Having a blue-quality set of gear with Training trait will give you an 80% XP buff per kill (purple quality Training gear will give 87% XP buff per kill). One may get from level 50 to CP 160 very quickly in all-Training gear. You can find players who will make you gear for free, especially if you join a Social guild or PvE guild.

    If we were having a pint or a quart at the pub, I would tell you not to worry about level and CP, just yet. I'd suggest that you just wander around and explore and have fun. Forget "grinding" for level. Run each of the three PvE alliance zones, in order, starting by completing the training island(s), then doing the five zones in each alliance in order. These zones were designed (originally) to be performed in order: the stories and dialogue make most sense if you do them the first time in order. I would run the alliance zones BEFORE you run the DLC zones.

    If you like quests, there's at least 500 hours of game-play in the "base game," and more than another 500 hours in the expansions/DLC. If you don't like quests, I suppose you are limited to running 4-player group dungeons, 12-player trials, and PvP (battlegrounds or Cyrodiil). I quite enjoyed running all the quests when the game first launched.

    Here are things to do (in no particular order):
    - Start "Riding Lessons" immediately: they take 6 months per character to complete!
    - Start crafting research soon, but don't place Skill Points into Crafting skill trees until you have sufficient points in offensive and defensive Active and Passive Abilities.
    - Get the FREE house: Just complete the main quest sequence in Elswyr. (It's a big house, after one gets the FREE expansions to the house.)
    - Join the following: Mages Guild; Fighters Guild; and the Undaunted.
    - Run the Quests in all the alliance zones. A lot of folks hate quests. I thought they were amusing.
    - Complete the following: Mages Guild quest line; Fighters Guild quest line; Psijic Guild quest line.
    - Get the Antiquity System skill trees, and start leveling up the skill trees. It might be good to do this before you run the Zones.
    - Go exploring. Just walk, run, or ride around the landscape as you go from place to place. I love the artwork, and the surprises.
    - Start running all the 4-player Group Dungeons. Run them at "normal" difficulty. Try to join a PvE or Social guild where you can find friends to run these dungeons. You can run them as part of the daily Undaunted pledge if you want.
    - Run all the delves and dolmen and worldbosses in each of the alliance zones.
    - Run quests and skyshards and delves in the Expansion/DLC zones. I had fun with all the new zones: Craglorn; Wrothgar/Orsinium; Morrowind; Summerset; Elswyer; Greymoor; and Blackwood. I didn't really enjoy Imperial City.
    - Play a new character in the under-level-50 PvP campaign in Cyrodiil. Enter Cyrodiil at level 10 to 15, run the skyshards and delves, then join the PvP action. You can go to Cyrodiil and complete the training quest in total safety (no enemy players around to kill you), and you get 2 skillpoints upon completion. You can also pickup 2 skyshards while you are at it, with no risk to life, limb, or pride.
    - Consider completing the Thieves Guild quest line.
    - Consider completing the Dark Brotherhood quest line.
    - Consider playing around with Vampire and Werewolf.
    - Pickup a "companion" in Blackwood!
    Edited by HumbleThaumaturge on September 1, 2021 12:29AM
  • newtinmpls
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    I do agree...but also some things got missed
    A lot of this is an artifact of how the game began, and then changed.

    In the beginning, it was like a regular MMO, with a level range for each zone. You played through your faction's 5-zone story and then the Coldharbor climax, and you were 50!

    Problem was that if you actually did all the side quests, delves, explorations, you seriously quickly outleveled content - and if you think overland is bad now; being Vet 4 (err....CP40) in a Vet 1 zone was a major annoyance.
    People wanted to Experience Everything, <snip> AND But people didn't like being walled off from playing with their friends <snip> So they changed the game to just let you go anywhere, out of order.

    And there is good and bad to it.

    Yes it used to be frustrating as heck to have problems grouping with someone from another faction - I don't miss that at all.

    Also - one good point - Since switching from Vet to CP; the gear cap doesn't change - though a lot of the sets get tweaked (or mangled in various partchs) - see the craziness when Medusa got changed and people started farming for staves - and more recently see the changes to Pelinal's this patch.

    I think that ZoS initially underestimated at lot of what the TES fans loved; witness for years we were told there would never be housing, and now there are not only dye stations, but outfit systems. Lots of things that were not planned, but came about in response to player demand. And money.

    This is one theory that I've seen propounded - that part of the dearth of PvP expansion is that the money is in PvE and cosmetics and "silly things" that are delightful to lore fiends.

    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • Coatmagic
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    Bravo! You got it right!
  • Zuboko
    Zuboko
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    From my perspective (and this is why I resisted getting into MMO's for as long as I did and why ESO is my first MMO and will be my last) to most people MMO's essentially serve as a glorified chat server with a graphical interface with an occasional intermission for running a dungeon.
    Edited by Zuboko on August 24, 2021 2:23AM
  • rpa
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    Levelling is there to give illusion of progress for those who need it, Champion points (and similar systems in other gaems) are there to give illusion of ever increasing power for those who need it. Costuming, mounts, pets, housing, fishing (too bad its so bad in this game) and such are the endgame for the casual masses who does not give a *** about progress or power but just want to have fun.
    PC EU - Casual pessimist
  • Kwoung
    Kwoung
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    Wanakanabe wrote: »
    So I reached 50. Confused on how scaling works and where is the fun. It doesn't seem there is a goal to work towards other than more leveling. On my journey to 50, I thought the mobs would be more challenging as I progressed and the past mobs would get easier, you know as I gain power, I am advancing/accomplishing something. At 50 levels in, I don't feel like I accomplished anything. I made an Alt that is level 4 and he can solo delves and dolmens and pretty much everything my 50 can. So at 50, I am still really just a level 4 in level 50 armor. End game as far as I can tell is everyone bragging about beating up a training dummy for parses and getting the gear to do it. Is that it, am I missing something? How hard is it to get those next 160 levels, so do the levels take as long per level as the first levels to get to 50?
    I enjoyed the story to 50, it was quite overwhelming as to where to go and what to do but as far as fighting, there really wasn't anywhere I couldn't go, no place made me feel like it was something I might not be able to handle. 160 levels sounds daunting and boring and to only end up looking pretty and brag about beating up a dummy doesn't sound appealing.

    It all depends on what you like to do. I gave up doing dungeons & trials long ago, just wasn't that into it. That said, I have so many goals in ESO it is hard to decide what to do each day, or even hour to hour. If you are 100% focused on combat, then practice your rotation, farm gear sets to put a build together after you hit CP 160 (the gear cap), and make sure you have your crafting leveled to get those bonuses and be able to upgrade your gear as well.

    Possible things to do:
    1. Become a trade mogul
    2. Do every quest in game (my current favorite)
    3. Get all the achievements, some are a blast, some are a real PITA, but there are thousands of them.
    4. Decorate houses (more of a end game activity, as it requires a ton of gold and rare materials)
    5. Do some PVP (also a favorite of mine). The rewards are great and you don't have to just memorize mechanics, it takes skill reacting to other players trying to kill you. (I still kinda suck at it)
    6. Collect all the monster sets.
    7. Collect all the gear sets for your stickerbook.
    8. Earn Master Crafter.
    9. Earn Master Angler.

    ...and lot's more. This game has more crap to do than any other game I have played and will keep you engaged for years if you want.
    Edited by Kwoung on August 24, 2021 9:04AM
  • hands0medevil
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    housing and roleplay - true and currently only endgame in ESO my friend
  • inchdixprb19_ESO
    inchdixprb19_ESO
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    Not one reply has mentioned the fact that this game started with no no CP system in place and that your character was not compensated (scaled) to be able to deal with all story content. One tamriel did not exist and the game was very much more alliance based. You could not simply go anywhere in the game and do the story content there, you had to follow the story arc of your alliance. Originally you started the game as a prisoner in coldharbour, had to fight you way out of there and would awaken in the starter zone of your chosen alliance. You were then pointed to follow the basic quests in the starter islands for your alliance before tackling the main story. If for argument your char was dominion, go to khenarthi's roost before trying auridon.
    After leaving coldharbour, your character would be level 4-5, enemies in Auridon were level 8-12 and you knew the difference those levels made. thinking you could skip ahead to say Reapers march where the enemies were level 35-40 and you would die horribly constantly. Also as , in this case, a Dominion character, you had to complete all of your alliance story arc, travel to coldharbour once more to face off with Molag Bal and only then could you travel the next alliance and do cadwells silver (which would mean completing the entire story arc for the Pact and so on).
    Of course you could travel anywhere you liked by porting to other players/friends within YOUR alliance but you probably would have had a really tough time doing anything that was not appropriate for your level.
    Even crafting was different..... all the various ores/wood/cloth between level 50 and CP160 were absolutely necessary. Now they almost pointless.
    As I mentioned, the CP system did not exist, rather we had the Veteran system which at maximum reached V16 when Wrothgar was added. V16 became CP160 and the 2 systems ran side by side for a short while.
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