[Improve the game] Ideas about dungeon finder

Noctume

I really can't stand DPS players who tag tank or heal in dungeon finder just to tag quickly!
When you come across this kind of players and you come across DLC dungeons it becomes complex and unmanageable because 90% of the time they rush without caring about the others player of the group !

It would be necessary that to change the dungeon finder system like for example : blocks the fact of tag tank or healer if one does not respect certain restrictions:

• Tank : have a sword and shield equipped and a HP cap (30-35k for normal and more for vet) and minimal resistances (base for normal and vet) as well as the presence of at least one taunt skill
  
• Healer : have a recovery staff equipped with at least two healing skills (and more skills in vet)

Because this kind of experience with people who don't have the role and who ruin the tag of the other players who are forced to leave the dungeon because of people who don't respect the others and their role it becomes tiring.

Tell me what do you think about that idea in the comment below, tell me what should be your way to make things better rom your point of view and of course share your bad experience because of that kind of player to show to Zenimax dev that is a real problem.

Parasaurolophus

I really can't stand DPS players who tag tank or heal in dungeon finder just to tag quickly!
When you come across this kind of players and you come across DLC dungeons it becomes complex and unmanageable because 90% of the time they rush without caring about the others player of the group !

And what's wrong with that? These players usually deal the highest DPS in the group and guarantee the completion of the dungeon.

Noctume

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I really can't stand DPS players who tag tank or heal in dungeon finder just to tag quickly!
When you come across this kind of players and you come across DLC dungeons it becomes complex and unmanageable because 90% of the time they rush without caring about the others player of the group !

And what's wrong with that? These players usually deal the highest DPS in the group and guarantee the completion of the dungeon.

On 5 runs 4 of them was lead by a fake tank who die at each pack on DLC dungeon because they couldn't resist to damage of the pack and because they didn't wait other players and wanted to rush alone

ixthUA

Real tanks and healers aren't needed in normal dungeons, so they don't queue there. The longer current situation continues - the less real tanks and healers will be in normal dungeons.
Enforcing certain requirements will not return tanks/healers back to normal dungeons.

Arkew

Noctume wrote: »

I really can't stand DPS players who tag tank or heal in dungeon finder just to tag quickly!
When you come across this kind of players and you come across DLC dungeons it becomes complex and unmanageable because 90% of the time they rush without caring about the others player of the group !

It would be necessary that the dungeon finder blocks the fact of tag tank or healer if one does not respect certain restrictions:

• Tank : have a sword and shield equipped and a HP cap (30-35k for normal and more for vet) and minimal resistances (base for normal and vet) as well as the presence of at least one taunt skill
  
• Healer : have a recovery staff equipped with at least two healing skills (and more skills in vet)

Because this kind of experience with people who don't have the role and who ruin the tag of the other players who are forced to leave the dungeon because of people who don't respect the others and their role it becomes tiring.

Tell me what do you think about that idea in the comment below, tell me what should be your way to make things better rom your point of view and of course share your bad experience because of that kind of player to show to Zenimax dev that is a real problem.

more simply if you hate fake tank and fake healer

simply ask zos to add spirit buff/nerf like in pvp for each role

Tank spirit: increase max health and armor by X% , you can survive one shoot if you have more of 70 % of you hp, reduce all damage done by 95 % and healing done/shield given to other player by 75 %

DD: increase weapon and spell dmg by X%, increase critical damage done by X%, reduce all healing done/shield by 95 %

Healer: increase healing done by X%, increase buff duration given by X%, reduce all damage done by 95 % (except funnel Health because damage done are turned into heal for other player).

the problem is simply to tighten on the dd simply if they go on other role they simply lost all they'r damage, with this system each role need other for not go to the wipe.

but if you want more horrbile way to fix fake tank just add dps cap on boss like he can only take max 3% of is max health as damage per second and make execute extra damage the only way to bypass this mechanic.

Problem solven

writen by a tank/healer player so if your not happy dd go play true healer/tank role instead of plague the most overpopulated role in eso.

the proof with blackwood update , the legendary shadowfen node war who show we have to many dd population.

Lady_Galadhiel

Again this? The same people reposting over and over different threads about the same,I miss the diversity of subjects on this forum.

perfiction

Noctume wrote: »

It would be necessary that the dungeon finder blocks the fact of tag tank or healer if one does not respect certain restrictions:

• Tank : have a sword and shield equipped and a HP cap (30-35k for normal and more for vet) and minimal resistances (base for normal and vet) as well as the presence of at least one taunt skill
  
• Healer : have a recovery staff equipped with at least two healing skills (and more skills in vet)

I really hate queueing to RND on my healer/tank toons. There are plenty of uncompetent DDs turning simple normal DLC dungeon into 40-50 minutes of boredom and suffering. Let's add "DD: can do at least 30k dps" to your list and I'll be fine with dungeon finder restrictions

gariondavey

Sorry but this isn't really a good idea.
I've ​healed players who were a tank with 12k hp in vet dungeons and nobody ever died.
I've tanked vet dungeons with 20k hp in medium armor with a taunt but no 1h+s or ice staff with completely self sufficient heals and no dedicated healer, and no problems.
I've healed vet dungeons with only radiating regen and extended ritual.
I've run vet dungeons with 4 dps. No healer and no tank and no deaths.

Larcomar

I suppose it's that time of the day again. I think you're conflating two separate problems : rushers and "fake tanks." Stopping rushers queing as a tank isn't going to make them stop rushing. When they finally get in the damn dungeon, they're going to want to get it done at warp speed.

As to fake tanks? You not only don't need a tank in base game normals, you wouldn't really want one. They don't do any damage. And half the groups running them put out about 10k between them. All you really need to tank a normal is inner fire, a source of breach and some basic resists / HP.

Vets, dlcs, sure that's a different kettle of fish. But most of these posts seem to be peopel companining about normals. But liek I say, I think what they're really complaining about is rushers.

ebix_

what about asking zos to make dungeons that actualy needs a healer and tank.
having 3 dd in most of dunegons make it easier even a healer in hardmode fights like castle thorn is just a dead weight.

Noctume

Arkew wrote: »

more simply if you hate fake tank and fake healer

simply ask zos to add spirit buff/nerf like in pvp for each role

Tank spirit: increase max health and armor by X% , you can survive one shoot if you have more of 70 % of you hp, reduce all damage done by 95 % and healing done/shield given to other player by 75 %

DD: increase weapon and spell dmg by X%, increase critical damage done by X%, reduce all healing done/shield by 95 %

Healer: increase healing done by X%, increase buff duration given by X%, reduce all damage done by 95 % (except funnel Health because damage done are turned into heal for other player).

the problem is simply to tighten on the dd simply if they go on other role they simply lost all they'r damage, with this system each role need other for not go to the wipe.

but if you want more horrbile way to fix fake tank just add dps cap on boss like he can only take max 3% of is max health as damage per second and make execute extra damage the only way to bypass this mechanic.

Problem solven

writen by a tank/healer player so if your not happy dd go play true healer/tank role instead of plague the most overpopulated role in eso.

the proof with blackwood update , the legendary shadowfen node war who show we have to many dd population.

That could be a good idea too

Noctume

Larcomar wrote: »

I suppose it's that time of the day again. I think you're conflating two separate problems : rushers and "fake tanks." Stopping rushers queing as a tank isn't going to make them stop rushing. When they finally get in the damn dungeon, they're going to want to get it done at warp speed.

As to fake tanks? You not only don't need a tank in base game normals, you wouldn't really want one. They don't do any damage. And half the groups running them put out about 10k between them. All you really need to tank a normal is inner fire, a source of breach and some basic resists / HP.

Vets, dlcs, sure that's a different kettle of fish. But most of these posts seem to be peopel companining about normals. But liek I say, I think what they're really complaining about is rushers.

Was speaking mostly of normal DLC and vet dungeon with the random queue

Don't know if I have a bad luck or something but 75% of my random dungeon are DLC's (normal or vet) and 80% in normal dungeon I have a fake tank on DLC's runs. For a lot on normal DLC's dungeon, tank is quite needed because of packs and bosses which still have hard dmg mecanics.
Or separate DLC's Dungeon from the random queue... don't know but it's quite a pain to have runs ruined because of that

zelaminator

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

There, answer provided.. once again, an idea that will just ruin it for people wanting to run dungeons with friends, people who can handle the situation they land in

Rasande_Robin

I'd say remove dungeon finder and have a hub where people talk to each other.

Darrett

The solution is to make healing and tanking required through dungeon design. The push for higher DPS to bypass mechanics is the fault of the developer.

svendf

OP. You will see the same people responce to your post, who aren´t interested in a solution, so don´t mind them .

Yes there are problems in dungeons and you are right OP. Tanks are not needed in norm or DLC is not true as you have discovered for yourself.

My tanks and healers plus dds are kept out of dungeons atm. We are allready seeing problems finding people to que as tank, but that´s not because there isn´t any tanks out there, they just don´t bother.

Yes. A solution is needed

zelaminator

svendf wrote: »

OP. You will see the same people responce to your post, who aren´t interested in a solution, so don´t mind them .

Yes there are problems in dungeons and you are right OP. Tanks are not needed in norm or DLC is not true as you have discovered for yourself.

My tanks and healers plus dds are kept out of dungeons atm. We are allready seeing problems finding people to que as tank, but that´s not because there isn´t any tanks out there, they just don´t bother.

Yes. A solution is needed

A solution is needed, no discussion there.. his solution though, is not the one

svendf

zelaminator wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

OP. You will see the same people responce to your post, who aren´t interested in a solution, so don´t mind them .

Yes there are problems in dungeons and you are right OP. Tanks are not needed in norm or DLC is not true as you have discovered for yourself.

My tanks and healers plus dds are kept out of dungeons atm. We are allready seeing problems finding people to que as tank, but that´s not because there isn´t any tanks out there, they just don´t bother.

Yes. A solution is needed

A solution is needed, no discussion there.. his solution though, is not the one

It´s ZOS job to find a solution.. I believe suggestions are welcome. As it is now it´s not healthy for ESO.

neferpitou73

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Again this? The same people reposting over and over different threads about the same,I miss the diversity of subjects on this forum.

I think this is the third of fourth thread I've seen on this in the past 1.5 weeks. It really does get tiresome.

ebix_ wrote: »

what about asking zos to make dungeons that actualy needs a healer and tank.
having 3 dd in most of dunegons make it easier even a healer in hardmode fights like castle thorn is just a dead weight.

You mean instead of creating arbitrary and cumbersome systems which will make completing dungeons a slog and turning people off from playing, ZOS should just create content that necessitates having all roles in a group? What a concept!

zelaminator

svendf wrote: »

zelaminator wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

OP. You will see the same people responce to your post, who aren´t interested in a solution, so don´t mind them .

Yes there are problems in dungeons and you are right OP. Tanks are not needed in norm or DLC is not true as you have discovered for yourself.

My tanks and healers plus dds are kept out of dungeons atm. We are allready seeing problems finding people to que as tank, but that´s not because there isn´t any tanks out there, they just don´t bother.

Yes. A solution is needed

A solution is needed, no discussion there.. his solution though, is not the one

It´s ZOS job to find a solution.. I believe suggestions are welcome. As it is now it´s not healthy for ESO.

Suggestions, sure.. but I'm willing to be everything that this idea which has been posted many many times already, is not the one they'll go with.. shutting down all the friend groups who use fake roles to play together? Yeah, not gonna fly

EF321

Noctume wrote: »

I really can't stand DPS players who tag tank or heal in dungeon finder just to tag quickly!
When you come across this kind of players and you come across DLC dungeons it becomes complex and unmanageable because 90% of the time they rush without caring about the others player of the group !

It would be necessary that the dungeon finder blocks the fact of tag tank or healer if one does not respect certain restrictions:

• Tank : have a sword and shield equipped and a HP cap (30-35k for normal and more for vet) and minimal resistances (base for normal and vet) as well as the presence of at least one taunt skill
  
• Healer : have a recovery staff equipped with at least two healing skills (and more skills in vet)

Because this kind of experience with people who don't have the role and who ruin the tag of the other players who are forced to leave the dungeon because of people who don't respect the others and their role it becomes tiring.

Tell me what do you think about that idea in the comment below, tell me what should be your way to make things better rom your point of view and of course share your bad experience because of that kind of player to show to Zenimax dev that is a real problem.

I tanked hard mode vet dungeons on sorc with all points magicka and ice staff.

I tanked vet hard mode dungeon on same character with snb front and 7 light armor pieces ~23k hp and capped block mitigation.

I healed vet dlc dungeons with stamina warden 2 daggers front bar and bow backbar, all medium armor (hircine, PA, rkugamz)



Don't limit others others because you have poor imagination and/or understanding of the game.

Thannazzar

If you wish to go down this route:

Tank should have:
- Minimum Health Requirement
- Minimum Resistance Requirement
- Taunt slotted

Healer should have:
- Resto Staff Heal Slotted
- Class Heal Slotted
- Resto Staff Equiped

DPS should have:
- No Taunt equipped
- Minimum weapon or spell power
- Minimum Base Damage stat.

zelaminator

Thannazzar wrote: »

If you wish to go down this route:

Tank should have:
- Minimum Health Requirement
- Minimum Resistance Requirement
- Taunt slotted

Healer should have:
- Resto Staff Heal Slotted
- Class Heal Slotted
- Resto Staff Equiped

DPS should have:
- No Taunt equipped
- Minimum weapon or spell power
- Minimum Base Damage stat.

And again, no.. bad idea.. the ones it will harm the most are people who farm with friends

ixthUA

There are already released dungeons that require tanks and healers. Normal dungeons were made for sub-50 players with no cp and no gear sets. If you are running a beginner version of dungeon with 4 veteran players - expect it to be a speedrun with 4 DDs. Or you can queue yourself as a real tank/healer.
If you complain about no real tank/healer in dungeons - i see no reason not to switch to veteran dungeons.

neferpitou73

Thannazzar wrote: »

If you wish to go down this route:

Tank should have:
- Minimum Health Requirement
- Minimum Resistance Requirement
- Taunt slotted

Healer should have:
- Resto Staff Heal Slotted
- Class Heal Slotted
- Resto Staff Equiped

DPS should have:
- No Taunt equipped
- Minimum weapon or spell power
- Minimum Base Damage stat.

I fail to see how restricting people's build choices makes the game more enjoyable for anyone.

Eiregirl

It has been mentioned a few times on the forums that there is only one way to drastically reduce the number of fake tanks, healers or even DD's in a random if not put an end to people faking their role. To do this ZOS would need to make every dungeon absolutely require an actual tank to take damage from the boss and multiple mobs that would quickly kill a healer or DD. This system would also require an actual healer to heal the tanks missing health back up and spread some out to the damage dealers that with the new system have learned they need to let the tank go first or they will absolutely die.

Under the new system these dungeons could still be cleared quickly but just not as fast as the current system because people would have to actually perform their roles.

If something like this was implemented for the dungeon finder only it would NOT put an end to people being able to solo dungeons. Which is what I would prefer because I like soloing and short grouping dungeons.

If something like this was implemented across the board for dungeons then it would put an end to soloing dungeons which is something I would not like to happen.

What would happen to the dungeon queues if this was implemented? Would this reduce the time for people to get in a dungeon from the queue or would it increase the time? I would hope more people would take up tanking and healing but honestly it would only help if there a lot of real tanks and healers hiding out there than I think. I would dust off my tanks and healers how about you?

A system like this would make it more interesting and more challenging but do people want that? I do but I don’t know about you.

The vast majority of players in dungeon finder seem to only want to get in and get out as fast as possible and do not seem to even want to be there to start with.

I do dungeons for fun and I like to make them challenging which is why I solo whatever I can and sometimes take a friend along for company and take an extra friend or two along on ones that I cannot. I like to loot and pick up heavy sacks and treasure chests. I have done my speed run achievements and don’t care to do them again unless someone I am running with needs it.

Dungeon finder is not something I use often but I would be all for a system like the one I described above where I would have fun again using my tank or healer in a role they were actually needed for. In the current system on normal dungeons 4 dps can clear everything and many vet dungeons. Vet dlc is a bit of a different story for some dungeons but even then if those 4 dps know what they are doing they can clear most of them if not all.

Amottica

Noctume wrote: »

Tank : have a sword and shield equipped and a HP cap (30-35k for normal and more for vet) and minimal resistances (base for normal and vet) as well as the presence of at least one taunt skill][/center]

Sword and shield are not requirements for tanking. Neither is an ice staff. Anyone can taunt (the single defining aspect of being a tank). Even 30-35k HP is much more than is required for many dungeons and the more skilled the tank the less HP is required.

• And then requiring a taunt does not force the person to actually use it.

Noctume wrote: »

Healer : have a recovery staff equipped with at least two healing skills (and more skills in vet)

We have classes that do not need a healing staff to heal. I know some players that have Templar healers that have healed dungeons and even some of the easier vet trials without a resto staff (they were the second healer in the trial).

• A DPS can equip that healing staff to get into the trial, even keep it equipped on the back bar. That does not force them to actually heal.

Arbitrary requirements will not make the game better nor will they solve the fake tank/healer issue. If it was that easy then Zenimax would have probably done something long ago.

neferpitou73

Easiest solution to the fake tanking problem:

-make sure that your group dps is high enough to burn through any non-DLC normal dungeon

-form your own group for vet and DLC dungeons

Larcomar

Noctume wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

I suppose it's that time of the day again. I think you're conflating two separate problems : rushers and "fake tanks." Stopping rushers queing as a tank isn't going to make them stop rushing. When they finally get in the damn dungeon, they're going to want to get it done at warp speed.

As to fake tanks? You not only don't need a tank in base game normals, you wouldn't really want one. They don't do any damage. And half the groups running them put out about 10k between them. All you really need to tank a normal is inner fire, a source of breach and some basic resists / HP.

Vets, dlcs, sure that's a different kettle of fish. But most of these posts seem to be peopel companining about normals. But liek I say, I think what they're really complaining about is rushers.

Was speaking mostly of normal DLC and vet dungeon with the random queue

Don't know if I have a bad luck or something but 75% of my random dungeon are DLC's (normal or vet) and 80% in normal dungeon I have a fake tank on DLC's runs. For a lot on normal DLC's dungeon, tank is quite needed because of packs and bosses which still have hard dmg mecanics.
Or separate DLC's Dungeon from the random queue... don't know but it's quite a pain to have runs ruined because of that

Yeah, I can appreciate that having a fake tank in one of those would be a problem. A lot of people report that they have this "bad luck." I suspect it's not bad luck at all - more likely there aren't many people who are going to choose to run those dungeons and dungeon finder is using the people asking for random dungeons to fill groups out for those who do.

A problem which is probably exacerbated by .... people like me I can't be the only person who cancelled ESO+ because I'm not going to pay £8.99 a month to be penalised with DLCs in my RND queue... Conversely, I get a large number of low level groups, doing BC, FG etc, often running the quest.

I don't know how it works exactly, but I'm guessing that DF starts with the people who've requested a particular dungeon then fills their group out with people in the RND queue. And it's presumably going to assign people who don't have ESO+ to the basegame dungeons, leaving people who do pay getting a disproportionate number of DLCs....

They really should separate out the queues; an awful lot of people just want an RND for the transmutes, and I'm not sure forcing them into DLCs is in anyone's interests. Until they do, if you *want* DLC's - or still need to run vets - I'd suggest you do then in a guild group; I run them like that during ESO+ trials etc and it's alot less painful.

If you don't, however, I'd suggest you dump ESO+. It makes life alot easier. There is ofc the craft bag but, once you realise that 90% of the stuff you pick up is crap you won't ever need and just auto dump it to junk, it's pretty straighforward. I honestly don't notice not having it anymore.

That doesn't ofc solve the fake tank issue. I ran a bunch of dungeons on a healer alt I was levelling up for the skill pts a while back; I realised after the third dungeon I was going to have tank, heal and probably dps the lot of them, and ended up just slotting a taunt because it was obvious noone else had one.

After that little experience, I just go in as a tank now. You can tank basegame D's just with inner fire and a source of breach but I stick my toons in heavy armor, if only out of laziness; it just makes you pretty impervious to damage. I used to use snb on them all until I realised that you don't really need either the skills or the passives and it crippled you dps. Silver leash is handy, but it's usually quicker to just kill the mob and nowadays I prefer - if I have one - to slot a group heal because if you get low levels, they may not have a self heal. And they love to stand in red....

Maybe that makes me part of the problem. But personally, rather than get stuck with someone who isn't even going to *try* to tank the dungeon and ending up having to do it myself by default, I'd rather go in set up for it and do it properly. Or at least make some effort to do it properly. I think it makes for better groups but sure, YMMV.

You're still going to get rushers but I find - most of the time - if you point out someones on the quest they're actually reasonable. And if they're not, just go at the pace of the quester. The rushers don't always end up dying when they charge ahead, but it's quite satisfying when they do....

zelaminator

Larcomar wrote: »

people like me I can't be the only person who cancelled ESO+ because I'm not going to pay £8.99 a month to be penalised with DLCs in my RND queue...

Penalized?? Wow...

lolo_01b16_ESO

I like playing support roles. I healed vet dlc dungeons with dual swords + destro staff, dual daggers + bow or double destro staves. I tanked vet dungeons with 2h+bow or shock + healing staff. All that is possible if you know how the game works and have some creativity and dedication.

Why would you ban me from the group finder, just because some other people don't do their roles.

Also in my experience 80% of the time when a dungeon group fails, it's due to a lack of dps.