Getting kicked from vet trials because I'm a stamina DD

Sleeping_OwI

I joined a vSS group last night. We kept wiping at the Ice boss, so the leader wanted someone to blame, and he kicked me. Asked him why, "You're stam dd. Stam not for trials lol."

Now that irresponsible trash who does this 1 hour into the trial is not the subject here, but the whole lack of balance between magicka and stamina in PvE and PvP. Everyone knows mag is in a better place than stamina in PvE, and most groups don't even take any stamina DDs to serious trials. Mags get a huge penetration from light armor, freedom to use crit weapon traits and crit mundus, and the massive advantage of range in PvE, while stamina has to struggle just to get enough penetration, all the while losing crit chance left and right because we have to sacrifice weapon traits and mundus for penetration, and always having to stay in melee range, taking all that damage in the face like a champ. Every [snip] boss in this game has mechanics to punish those in melee range, but how often do they punish you at range? Not nearly as often.

And this is all before the next patch drops which reduces crit chance for medium armor even further, meanwhile giving magic classes nice bonuses from Fighters Guild. What do staminas get from Mages Guild? Nothing, of course. Right now I have only 47% crit with Kinras+Deadly, and next patch it'll be below 40%, which is just sad and pathetic.

Stamina is better in PvP, so this is how they try to fix it, by ruining PvE end-game for staminas instead of separating PvE and PvP once and for all and preventing all this, because that's too much work for them I guess. I'm glad I'm not too much into vet trials and serious PvE end-game, because otherwise I would be have a very bad time as a stamina main, but I guess that's my fault for not maining mag. Rant over.

What do you guys think about all this?
[edited for profanity bypass]

Cadbury

Stamina is for PvP
Magicka is for PvE
That's the way they seem to want it.

colossalvoids

My only thought about this is that people who shouldn't be concerned about "what's the flavour of the patch is" still trying to act as endgame players deciding who's going and who's staying outside an instance. Especially in pugs performance isn't tied to a spec, even in more less organised group stam player can easily be outdamaging his full magicka group depending on his skill level. Just log part of the encounter to see who's the weak link in the chain, spec guessing is the dumbest thing I've heard personally. Anyway.

Are actual stam comps having it worse now? Yeah, same as mag ones before that and that's usual eso cycle here. I'd like it to be "fair" but people would hop on the new train as soon as new PTS patch notes be up. It's zos, you'll always find something performing better than other.
Difference isn't insanely big, but some prefer to have no opinion and follow the flow instead of doing some work themselves.

Fennwitty

Best stam participation I achieved in a trial was with a bowblade build at Cloudrest.

Able to put attacks almost wherever, avoid mechanics because I can see them coming a mile away ...

But that was before some of the recent bow changes that reduced damage.

Ranged vs. Melee is one huge piece. Bow in my opinion isn't in a great place for doing damage as a main weapon unless you specifically use the special arena weapons and build for it. So stam doesn't have much in the way of purely ranged damage.

Trials have so much (almost) unavoidable effects and teleporting enemies that melee is at extreme disadvantage. Even if I was ready to do tons of damage with a 2-h or dual wield, it feels like half my time's spent dodge rolling or breaking free. Then the other quarter of my time is running down the real target because they popped up somewhere else.

cleric_warlock

Honestly, i think it’s lazy that they can’t just separate the balancing of mag and stam builds between pvp and pve. Most of us are paying them monthly for eso plus so they should feel more of a sense of obligation to fix this and make mag and stam separately balanced for both pve and pvp. How hard even is it to just put pve and pvp stats on everything and just list them in tooltips?

Karm1cOne

The entire stam vs mag in trials is bs. With a couple of exceptions like vCR, everyone is in melee range. Shields are a dps loss, so that argument is bs too. The difference at the topest of prog groups is a percent or 2. In a pug vet trial, the difference is marginal.

zvavi

vSS is one of the most stam friendly trials out there, excluding HM, which requires a huge amount of cleave damage that stam is lacking. If they can't clear non HM it is not because you are a stam dd (which parses higher this patch!!!), but because group as a whole was weak af.

Edit: additionally the stam crit-> crit damage is a buff. Change you mundus stone to thief and live your life happiner. (Essentially you are trading 5% crit dmg for 3% crit).
Edit 2: I am not saying you were not the issue. you might have been one of the reasons group couldn't pass it (having few weaker dds makes it harder) but if you were, it is not because you are a stam dd.

BXR_Lonestar

Honestly, what they need to do is make Stam designated "finishers." Mag has always been more survivable, but people complained about the stam DPS meta because stam was always better. Now that is not the case. If Mag is going to be more survivable AND better DPS, simply buff the crap out of stam executions so that stam is still useful in the last phase of a fight when you are trying to take down a big baddy. Then they can make more sets geared towards that role. That way, you would always want a decent mix of stam dps to help finish a boss faster once you've gotten them to execute phase.

Shantu

After doing pretty much nothing but vet trials for a few years, this kind of elitist BS behavior is why I now just avoid them. Honestly, I don't think the whole stam vs mag issue is worth stewing over. ZOS has repeated shown that protests about their combat design get ignored. I'd just find a different guild and/or group that better suits my sense of entertainment.

Reverb

*laughs in 100k dps stamplar*

Oreyn_Bearclaw

And this is why we don't pug vet trials...

Jaimeh

Karm1cOne wrote: »

The entire stam vs mag in trials is bs. With a couple of exceptions like vCR, everyone is in melee range. Shields are a dps loss, so that argument is bs too. The difference at the topest of prog groups is a percent or 2. In a pug vet trial, the difference is marginal.

It's not the range that's the problem is that most group compositions are tailored for maximizing mag DDs, and if you are a stam player within that composition your damage won't get boosted and you will be underpenetrating by a lot which you would have to tweak from your own build, further sacrificing damage.

MudcrabAttack

If it’s true that they’re saying it’s because you’re on a Stam DD, just find another group since they don’t know what they’re talking about.

I would like to get something from the mages guild, though, since I use meteor, seems only fair.

I’m on a stam archer build, generally in the top 2 in all my trials otherwise full of mages, they like using a couple mage sets on damage dealers that add group buffs and leave a few spots open for anyone else interested. If you have a parse that qualifies you for the spot while making up whatever penetration is missing in their magic oriented trial, there’s really nothing else to it.

Karm1cOne

Jaimeh wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

The entire stam vs mag in trials is bs. With a couple of exceptions like vCR, everyone is in melee range. Shields are a dps loss, so that argument is bs too. The difference at the topest of prog groups is a percent or 2. In a pug vet trial, the difference is marginal.

It's not the range that's the problem is that most group compositions are tailored for maximizing mag DDs, and if you are a stam player within that composition your damage won't get boosted and you will be underpenetrating by a lot which you would have to tweak from your own build, further sacrificing damage.

That is a group comp issue, not a mag vs stam issue. Besides, the OP was talking about pug trials, so I would be amazed if the set comp was so optimized for penetration to be that big of an issue.

Grandchamp1989

I think it will get better next patch when you can increase your penetration by putting on light pieces.
Also Tanks can get easy access to a pen debuff set that's stronger and with better uptime than the current version of Alkosh.

I still think we need more options through CP to equal the playing field between mag and stam for PVE - but atleast it's something.

When I pug on my stamDK DD I always offer to to wear alkosh, so I don't burden supports and mag DDs and can help out my fellow stam DDs. It's honestly not a big DPS loss to put on Alkosh on a Stam DD in the current patch.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

It's created friction since the get-go. Many players are left on the sidelines as stamina based DPS characters.
There have been some rare occasions and patches where a stamplar or a stam dk would be used, but we are talking years ago and only briefly the time of a meta.

Now you can always organise full stam raids, but you'd have to find a raid/group leader who is interested in that. Same as always folks, if you want something done -> do it yourself.

They won't make an exception for solo stamina players in raids unless you perform to the T and then they have nothing to say.

This said: Stamcros are still visible in some raids.

Also...if you are doing distance content think of making a bow/bow build...don't stay with daggers and axes all your lives and make the small effort to learn a new rotation and make your character usable 100% in distance contexts.

WrathOfInnos

I wouldn’t read into the actions of a zone pug trial leader. These usually have standards just as low as group finder dungeons. I have no idea if the kick was justified (underperforming as stam DPS? Or just existing as stam DPS?), but an informed leader should not get rid of someone who is pulling their own weight on any build.

vSS is widely considered a Stamina-friendly trial. The first few GS groups were all stam, and even after Mag became more popular there was nothing wrong with having a couple stamina in the group. My Mag vSS group had a stamplar for a while, which performed very well, and I’ve seen others succeed with a couple of stamcros.

Lady_Galadhiel

Didin't the first Godslayer consist in like 3 or 4 stamcros in the team back in the day?
I know that stamina is not needed/wanted now but how can a team kick one player for something everyone is responsible for?
I mean if you wipe at one boss over and over it is not the fault of one player but of everyone.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Didin't the first Godslayer consist in like 3 or 4 stamcros in the team back in the day?
I know that stamina is not needed/wanted now but how can a team kick one player for something everyone is responsible for?
I mean if you wipe at one boss over and over it is not the fault of one player but of everyone.

They possibly did it when the dot meta was deployed (on VSS launch basically), all stams had the VMA daggers and were boosting out crazy DPS for that time (might be wrong on the way they achieved it, but it existed)

radiostar

That's interesting bc the callout is never for mag dps or stam dps when a group is formed in zone, it's always just need dps.

Dojohoda

I was browsing trial guilds recently and saw one that posted "not accepting stam dps". I'm mag, but what the heck?

NylAR

One of the major reasons I have 0 interest in vet content is I can't play my mains that happen to be stamina.

I could still use an alt but really it grants me no satisfaction then.

colossalvoids

Dojohoda wrote: »

I was browsing trial guilds recently and saw one that posted "not accepting stam dps". I'm mag, but what the heck?

Well some teams have full right to have the composition set their way, if group is optimising for magicka damage dealers it's pretty obvious that they would expect someone who would fit. The other thing would be pugs and not fully optimised groups but that's the problem with YouTube driven mentality, if X said Y is bad we're kicking Z.

redspecter23

If I'm in charge of a vet trial and it comes to a point where I need to remove someone, I'm basing it entirely on their performance. I won't remove someone just because they are stam, but I will remove someone if their dps is much lower than average or if they die constantly or if they are a detriment to the group as a whole.

There are issues currently which make it harder for stam to perform in an organized trial to the same degree that mag can, but stam can definitely perform well enough to not be removed from the group and it's definitely not the fault of one sub par dps that the entire raid is failing.

If you're getting removed from content on a regular basis, it's time to examine the common factor... or maybe just change to mag spec. It really does seem that ZOS wants players to do that in PVE.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Didin't the first Godslayer consist in like 3 or 4 stamcros in the team back in the day?
I know that stamina is not needed/wanted now but how can a team kick one player for something everyone is responsible for?
I mean if you wipe at one boss over and over it is not the fault of one player but of everyone.

They possibly did it when the dot meta was deployed (on VSS launch basically), all stams had the VMA daggers and were boosting out crazy DPS for that time (might be wrong on the way they achieved it, but it existed)

I think it was more about the fact that Necros were the new Meta with Colossus rotations when VSS launched, and as stated, VSS is VERY stamina friendly as trials go. It was the first class/spec our raid lead at the time told us to power level. Between Colossus and Lokkestiiz (from VSS), you had absurd uptimes on Major Slayer and Vulnerability. Lokk played well to StamCro with there ability to self synergize. DPS was off the charts. I dont remember VMA weapons being part of that setup. Lokk Daggers (and 2 handers) were all the rage.

Dojohoda

colossalvoids wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

I was browsing trial guilds recently and saw one that posted "not accepting stam dps". I'm mag, but what the heck?

Well some teams have full right to have the composition set their way, if group is optimising for magicka damage dealers it's pretty obvious that they would expect someone who would fit. The other thing would be pugs and not fully optimised groups but that's the problem with YouTube driven mentality, if X said Y is bad we're kicking Z.

I'm not disputing a guild's right to optimize their way. My comment was more toward -what did zeni do to stam dd to make them seem like a weak link. Perhaps it is simply misinformation.

colossalvoids

Dojohoda wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

I was browsing trial guilds recently and saw one that posted "not accepting stam dps". I'm mag, but what the heck?

Well some teams have full right to have the composition set their way, if group is optimising for magicka damage dealers it's pretty obvious that they would expect someone who would fit. The other thing would be pugs and not fully optimised groups but that's the problem with YouTube driven mentality, if X said Y is bad we're kicking Z.

I'm not disputing a guild's right to optimize their way. My comment was more toward -what did zeni do to stam dd to make them seem like a weak link. Perhaps it is simply misinformation.

I guess it's more common now to have strictly magicka or stamina composition, years back it wasn't that black and white and most people I knew were in mixed groups which isn't really as common now. Partially because the information about raid comps and such is much more accessible now so people are copying more, that's some unintended effect from that. More casual raiders are using advanced strategies and composition which are really unnecessary at that level.

So it's not really Zeni, it's just usual cycle of things as someone always will be on top by some %. If we had same mindset that common years back it would be the same for magicka characters, but as far as I remember it was pretty okay. Not for everyone obviously but oh well.

Sleeping_OwI

zvavi wrote: »

vSS is one of the most stam friendly trials out there, excluding HM, which requires a huge amount of cleave damage that stam is lacking. If they can't clear non HM it is not because you are a stam dd (which parses higher this patch!!!), but because group as a whole was weak af.

Edit: additionally the stam crit-> crit damage is a buff. Change you mundus stone to thief and live your life happiner. (Essentially you are trading 5% crit dmg for 3% crit).
Edit 2: I am not saying you were not the issue. you might have been one of the reasons group couldn't pass it (having few weaker dds makes it harder) but if you were, it is not because you are a stam dd.

If I switch to Thief then my penetration will at a pitiful 2300 unbuffed, barely reaching 11k-12k with buffs. That's underpenetration. I'd love more crit chance, but I gotta have enough penetration first, don't you agree?

SeaGtGruff

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

I mean if you wipe at one boss over and over it is not the fault of one player but of everyone.

Yeah, I was wondering how the group performed after kicking the OP and getting a mag DD replacement. Chances are, they continued to wipe at least a few more times, if not a lot more times. It's kind of too bad we'll never know.

KovalskyNestor

Its kinda sad when you enter a trial and you see everyone wearing their sticks on the back and you are the only one with swords. This game is heavily advertised as "play how you want" but more and more I see anti melee range mechanics (like dragon slapping you if you enter its range). It's really elder staffs online.

Jaimeh

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Karm1cOne wrote: »

The entire stam vs mag in trials is bs. With a couple of exceptions like vCR, everyone is in melee range. Shields are a dps loss, so that argument is bs too. The difference at the topest of prog groups is a percent or 2. In a pug vet trial, the difference is marginal.

It's not the range that's the problem is that most group compositions are tailored for maximizing mag DDs, and if you are a stam player within that composition your damage won't get boosted and you will be underpenetrating by a lot which you would have to tweak from your own build, further sacrificing damage.

That is a group comp issue, not a mag vs stam issue. Besides, the OP was talking about pug trials, so I would be amazed if the set comp was so optimized for penetration to be that big of an issue.

I was replying to a comment, as shown by the quote embedded, and not to the OP. Also, it very much is a mag vs stam thing, since mag DDs can reach pen without altering anything, if you want to get technical.