DV Changes: Not everything has to be correct in PvE, let the players have some fun please?

cro25519

The changes to DV this pts literally feels like: "Yo the kids are having too much fun skateboarding, let's call the police". In this case anti-fun police was called.

Sure the set didn't work as you expected, but people got creative and were having fun with the set. We were literally proccing ranged supremacy in magplar execute by crouch (cancelling crouch with a la) weaving, and it was hella fun finding new creative ways to use a set and using them, and actually have fun playing a game in a different way than before. Yea it enters a skill barrier but who cares, the extra dps that comes from using dv over siroria (which is like what 1-2%?) only caters to like the 0.01% of the game who cares about the challenging content. And if we are doing vet hm trials without any rewards (and even vet it's not like most players do vet trials in the game) you know we are there looking for challenge and having fun doing hard stuff.

I feel like we are literally being punished for having fun playing a game and punished for being creative.

The new changes not only kills DV, but just feels like: "Oh how dare our players get creative, and use a set how it isn't supposed to", isn't the point of the game for players to have fun? Who cares if it's a little broken and doesn't work as implemented, at the end of the day it should be about players enjoying the game. It's not like people aren't grinding new content released for bahsei mania, and so people won't play the new content you released. I get it you want people to stay in the game and grind more because it's a MMO, but punishing players for having fun is gonna do opposite of that.

We are told by devs that a number of people who complete vet hm content is extremely tiny, but ofc it's going to be tiny if you just keep punishing said players for having fun in the game and will leave the game altogether. We'll just leave to a game that likes it's players being creative, yea I love elder scrolls universe that's why I stay here, but if the game is going to keep punishing me for being creative, I have better places to be, I will just read lore on uesp instead.

Not all bugs are bad bugs, but... let us have some fun sometimes you know?

Azorean

Diamond’s Victory: This set now better follows its statement of requiring an ability cast, and as such will no longer trigger from core combat skills such as Light Attacks or Bash.

I really don't understand. Finally, a set that isn't simply BUFF stats, but you actually have to work for it (some classes more than others), offers variety in the PvE settings.

And they nerfed.

YandereGirlfriend

Your comparison is both apt and amusing, well done!

I am also in complete agreement with you.

Unfortunately, this set was only on their radar due to the rantings of the various nerflings who were crusading against this set from basically its introduction. Some, it seems, simply cannot tolerate others having nice things if they cannot devise a way to benefit from it themselves.

SkaraMinoc

RIP Werewolf DV

Dagoth_Rac

How is Diamond's Victory more DPS than Siroria? Honest question. Assuming perfected (only requires vCR+1, so not that hard), Siroria gives you 5% from Minor Slayer and 520 spell damage. DV gives no Minor Slayer and 437 spell damage. Is idea that you lose Siroria stacks too often in real combat so that Minor Slayer + varying spell damage is worse than the mostly constant 437 spell damage from DV? Or is there more going on here that I am overlooking?

PrinceShroob

This change makes me upset. When this set was announced, it looked like a perfect magicka Dragonknight set, since they have melee-ranged abilities but ranged light attacks. And then, of course, people realized that self-cast abilities and things like Blastbones and Scorch would trigger the ranged buff and it became soulless flavor-of-the-month. I think a better change to curtail the set's power would be to restrict the range buff to actually triggering off of abilities that have a melee range greater than 0 (so no more triggering with Blastbones or Dark Deal) and continue to allow the the melee buff to trigger off of light attacks.

propertyOfUndefined

I know it’s probably an unpopular opinion, but most of the changes made for the sake of “balance” make the game less fun, imho. If I wanted something perfectly balanced (and bland) there are plenty of other games for that. None of them interest me.

The fun of a good roleplaying game was always finding creative ways to use general mechanics to have fun. In a game of pen & paper D&D, my character once hid inside his “bag of holding” as the ceiling crumbled above him. In Fallout 2, I once used my pickpocket skill to place live explosives in the inventory of a ghoul merchant, then skipped town and came back later to loot his corpse without being mobbed. These were memorable experiences!

YandereGirlfriend

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I know it’s probably an unpopular opinion, but most of the changes made for the sake of “balance” make the game less fun, imho. If I wanted something perfectly balanced (and bland) there are plenty of other games for that. None of them interest me.

The fun of a good roleplaying game was always finding creative ways to use general mechanics to have fun. In a game of pen & paper D&D, my character once hid inside his “bag of holding” as the ceiling crumbled above him. In Fallout 2, I once used my pickpocket skill to place live explosives in the inventory of a ghoul merchant, then skipped town and came back later to loot his corpse without being mobbed. These were memorable experiences!

I think that you're actually with the (silent) majority with that opinion.

cro25519

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

How is Diamond's Victory more DPS than Siroria? Honest question. Assuming perfected (only requires vCR+1, so not that hard), Siroria gives you 5% from Minor Slayer and 520 spell damage. DV gives no Minor Slayer and 437 spell damage. Is idea that you lose Siroria stacks too often in real combat so that Minor Slayer + varying spell damage is worse than the mostly constant 437 spell damage from DV? Or is there more going on here that I am overlooking?

It's more stats damage wise. Also minor slayer doesn't stack, so bahsei + (129*2+437+657 crit) = almost 700 damage + all that crit. Siroria only gives you like a little extra spell damage (due to magicka to spell dmg ratio) but none of that nice crit. Crit in this game is op especially with kilt. If you want to do math on it normalize the amount of crit to crit dmg, and add that to spell damage, it's a little higher, not by a lot, but a little higher.

So your damage ends up being higher. Yes without minor slayer it's bad, but with bahsei you already get the minor slayer and since both the minor slayers don't stack to 10% spell damage, dv being better.

DrSlaughtr

It's not a nerf when they fix a cheese bug. It wasn't supposed to proc under those conditions. People figured it out and abused it.

It's like when people find ways to sneak into keeps/castles/forts in Cyro them get upset when they get in trouble. They make the same argument made in this thread.

cro25519

Not everything has to be fixed even if it's a cheese. The PvE is about having fun, unlike PvP you don't disadvantage other players by having fun. Unless I guess players are angry someone's having fun playing a game? If it's fun what's the harm in keeping it as it is? Bland gameplay is boring.

That entire pvp thing makes no sense. How does people griefing players on PVP by abusing bugs has anything to do with pve players finding more fun and creative ways to enjoy the game?

It was a bug, but it was a good bug. Maybe make it the intended behavior. It's not like we haven't done this with light attack weaving before anyway.

Arunei

No matter how much you like something, it's not a nerf if a set, skill, or item is performing in unintended ways and those ways are fixed. The simple truth is the devs didn't want DV to function in the way it was, so they fixed it. That's not a nerf, that's fixing something that's behaving in a way that wasn't intended. Also, you're forgetting that since PvP and PvE aren't balanced separately, anything that applies to one can 100% be applied to and have something to do with the other. If a set can be cheesed/abused in PvE, it can be used the same way in PvP, and vice-versa.

cro25519

Let's agree to disagree then.

Nerf might be a bad choice of word, doesn't matter since I wrote a couple paragraphs other than the word nerf, my point still stands. I'd change it to anti fun police or something if I could (can't anymore) since people are fixated on that word.

My entire message agrees it wasn't working as implemented, but if you read it, you will see what I am trying to state. Sure *** happens sometimes, and devs slipped, but it inserted a really fun thing in the game. If it's fun, just let it stay, who cares if it doesn't work as they intended, if the players are having a blast.

As for pvp, I don't pvp so I can't say, but I don't really know about: lots of players which used it last patch when the set was "broken" which was probably because it's not very strong on pvp. By all means if it was broken, it's understandable.

You know what'd have been cool?

Patch notes saying: "Yo guys, you all are crazy finding all these fun ways to make the set work, keep having fun, we'll keep the set as it is because it's important to have fun, we'll figure something out if it creates any unbalanced behavior (which it didn't)".

phaneub17_ESO

Compromise: Change from having to be in combat to activate the effects. Having to tap mobs first to initiate combat before you can get the buffs is annoying, let it proc on any ability at any time.

YandereGirlfriend

Arunei wrote: »

No matter how much you like something, it's not a nerf if a set, skill, or item is performing in unintended ways and those ways are fixed. The simple truth is the devs didn't want DV to function in the way it was, so they fixed it. That's not a nerf, that's fixing something that's behaving in a way that wasn't intended. Also, you're forgetting that since PvP and PvE aren't balanced separately, anything that applies to one can 100% be applied to and have something to do with the other. If a set can be cheesed/abused in PvE, it can be used the same way in PvP, and vice-versa.

A nerf is literally any action that reduces the power of something. Intention does not have anything to do with it.

This change reduces the power of Diamond's Victory, ergo it is a nerf. This is not debatable.

ApoAlaia

Looks like some people found creative ways to have fun with this set.

Turns out that not everything that doesn't quite work as intended, of which we still have aplenty, does need to be enraging, tedious or frustrating. Every so often something crops up that without being necessarily game changing is nonetheless entertaining.

Well, we shall have none of that nonsense here.

That's it, party is over; don't you have a rotation to practice? Well off you go then, that dummy ain't gonna kill itself.

Moncc

Funny how light attacks, a hit with a definite range, proccing one of the buff is considered a bug, but Blastbones proccing both buffs for absolutely no logical reason can remain untouched. This set was the best thing to happen to magdk, but how dare we try to make the worst dps class be something else than a z'en bot.

Commander_Kjlp

Absolute shocker to remove light attacks from the trigger of the bonus. Isn't that the core idea of this set? Melee weapon and range spammable unlocks this set for most classes (even stamina, not that any content works well for them anyway). When you enter melee execute for example you will actually drop the melee bonus unless you cast the range ability inbetween the execute... sounds quite balanced to me?? You must be the correct class with correct spammable now.

I knew not invest anything upgrading this to gold, know these thiefs all too well. This was always on their minds to destroy this set once everyone pays up for the expansions. But some garbage crit chance % and crit damage % one slot item stays because thats really unique way to play this normalized game of 3 gameplays elements: crit chance, crit damage, damage modfiers - fun. Harpoon still could be next and they legitimately stole 40$ from me for the empy expansion, not much else in the new chapter other than 'save the world again' quest line made for lvl 27s, who all are at where the base game put them, not in Blackwood.

Shantu

This has been happening over and over the last couple of years. I don't think the concept of "fun" has any place in their design decisions. IMO, that's a mistake. You can only bleed so much entertainment from the game before you entirely kill the desire to play.

Jameson18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

No matter how much you like something, it's not a nerf if a set, skill, or item is performing in unintended ways and those ways are fixed. The simple truth is the devs didn't want DV to function in the way it was, so they fixed it. That's not a nerf, that's fixing something that's behaving in a way that wasn't intended. Also, you're forgetting that since PvP and PvE aren't balanced separately, anything that applies to one can 100% be applied to and have something to do with the other. If a set can be cheesed/abused in PvE, it can be used the same way in PvP, and vice-versa.

A nerf is literally any action that reduces the power of something. Intention does not have anything to do with it.

This change reduces the power of Diamond's Victory, ergo it is a nerf. This is not debatable.

It is, in fact, debatable.

A nerf would be to reduce the power of something from what it is. Currently, DV is actually broken and not even what it was meant to be, so therefore not at the "what it is" stage.

Therefore, its not a "nerf", its a "fix." That's just simplicity in basic logic.

cro25519

People being so fixated on the word "nerf" rather than what the thread stands for I have changed the word nerf lmao. No offense, but who gives a *** about the pedantic discussion on the word. It's like discussing if it's a chicken sandwich or a chicken burger. Americans call it Sandwich, in a lot of places it's called a burger. Who gives a ***? Like seriously...

What yandere said is right, it's literally in the dictionary what he said, but honestly who cares, if you don't agree, that's fine. Just move on, there's better things to do than arguing literally if it's a nerf or a fix. Don't have to make always make everyone on the internet agree with you.

Jameson18

cro25519 wrote: »

People being so fixated on the word "nerf" rather than what the thread stands for I have changed the word nerf lmao. No offense, but who gives a *** about the pedantic discussion on the word. It's like discussing if it's a chicken sandwich or a chicken burger. Americans call it Sandwich, in a lot of places it's called a burger. Who gives a ***? Like seriously...

What yandere said is right, it's literally in the dictionary what he said, but honestly who cares, if you don't agree, that's fine. Just move on, there's better things to do than arguing literally if it's a nerf or a fix. Don't have to make always make everyone on the internet agree with you.

Did you really just rant about it and then dog pile onto it?

And no... It's not right. It would have to be fixed first, and then changed.

To simplify base logic by using your own analogy; It doesn't matter if it's a chicken burger or a chicken sandwich. If the chicken is missing, it isn't either one of them.

Phaedryn

It was pretty broken as it was, and it was obvious to anyone paying attention it wasn't intended. I had actually expected an adjustment to it right after it launched, and am surprised they waited.

Jameson18

Phaedryn wrote: »

It was pretty broken as it was, and it was obvious to anyone paying attention it wasn't intended. I had actually expected an adjustment to it right after it launched, and am surprised they waited.

This.

Considering it actually states on ability use.

Everest_Lionheart

cro25519 wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

How is Diamond's Victory more DPS than Siroria? Honest question. Assuming perfected (only requires vCR+1, so not that hard), Siroria gives you 5% from Minor Slayer and 520 spell damage. DV gives no Minor Slayer and 437 spell damage. Is idea that you lose Siroria stacks too often in real combat so that Minor Slayer + varying spell damage is worse than the mostly constant 437 spell damage from DV? Or is there more going on here that I am overlooking?

It's more stats damage wise. Also minor slayer doesn't stack, so bahsei + (129*2+437+657 crit) = almost 700 damage + all that crit. Siroria only gives you like a little extra spell damage (due to magicka to spell dmg ratio) but none of that nice crit. Crit in this game is op especially with kilt. If you want to do math on it normalize the amount of crit to crit dmg, and add that to spell damage, it's a little higher, not by a lot, but a little higher.

So your damage ends up being higher. Yes without minor slayer it's bad, but with bahsei you already get the minor slayer and since both the minor slayers don't stack to 10% spell damage, dv being better.

Having tested both setups side by side with perf Bahsei I have found the difference in overall power to be negligible at best. 101.3K on my Magcro dot parse with DV, 101.7K with Siroria. My skull parses came out at 96.5 in DV and 96.7 in Siroria.

Despite the wasted minor slayer bonus all things are equal on my end. DV is slightly easier on the mag dump to start a fight, it’s also way easier to get than Siroria because you can craft it how you like. Siroria gives me more consistent numbers between 99-101 where DV has a slightly higher variance between 98-101.

What’s more interesting is that we are in a time where you don’t have to run Sorrow or Medusa anymore. It’s nice to see damage sets get a chance to shine.

DrSlaughtr

I get that LA was a convenient way to proc it but everyone has access to range and melee skills, and they're going to be in your rotation anyway. That's the way it's intended to work.

It is cheese balls that Necro can proc both conditions with one skill.

I'd get the outrage is it was written to include LAs and now they're removing them. There are plenty of people who didn't even know they could have been using LAs this entire time.

cro25519

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

cro25519 wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

How is Diamond's Victory more DPS than Siroria? Honest question. Assuming perfected (only requires vCR+1, so not that hard), Siroria gives you 5% from Minor Slayer and 520 spell damage. DV gives no Minor Slayer and 437 spell damage. Is idea that you lose Siroria stacks too often in real combat so that Minor Slayer + varying spell damage is worse than the mostly constant 437 spell damage from DV? Or is there more going on here that I am overlooking?

It's more stats damage wise. Also minor slayer doesn't stack, so bahsei + (129*2+437+657 crit) = almost 700 damage + all that crit. Siroria only gives you like a little extra spell damage (due to magicka to spell dmg ratio) but none of that nice crit. Crit in this game is op especially with kilt. If you want to do math on it normalize the amount of crit to crit dmg, and add that to spell damage, it's a little higher, not by a lot, but a little higher.

So your damage ends up being higher. Yes without minor slayer it's bad, but with bahsei you already get the minor slayer and since both the minor slayers don't stack to 10% spell damage, dv being better.

Having tested both setups side by side with perf Bahsei I have found the difference in overall power to be negligible at best. 101.3K on my Magcro dot parse with DV, 101.7K with Siroria. My skull parses came out at 96.5 in DV and 96.7 in Siroria.

Despite the wasted minor slayer bonus all things are equal on my end. DV is slightly easier on the mag dump to start a fight, it’s also way easier to get than Siroria because you can craft it how you like. Siroria gives me more consistent numbers between 99-101 where DV has a slightly higher variance between 98-101.

What’s more interesting is that we are in a time where you don’t have to run Sorrow or Medusa anymore. It’s nice to see damage sets get a chance to shine.

Like you said it adds good variety to the game, without being overpowering. Its fun to use too.

Just adds a nice crafted set to the game that is on par without being overpowered. The current version just makes it useless for lots of classes. Yea it doesn't work as stated, let it be, it's a fun set that worked on all classes with the bug, good bugs can be converted to features.

cro25519

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I get that LA was a convenient way to proc it but everyone has access to range and melee skills, and they're going to be in your rotation anyway. That's the way it's intended to work.

It is cheese balls that Necro can proc both conditions with one skill.

I'd get the outrage is it was written to include LAs and now they're removing them. I'm are there are plenty of people who didn't even know they could have been using LAs this entire time.

You lose way too much damage unless you body it and you need to body bahsei which complements the set, so not really that great of an option. The uptimes at execute are sad. You could move wall up, but then you lose a couple of your execute skills + recast wall. At that point why even bother?

It went from like 103k on plar to like 94k. At that point, it's better to use medusa anyway (world first rockgrove groups have used it for everything even trash, plus you can stack fighters guild next patch up for massive spell damage boosts making it even better and kilt + Elemental Catalyst makes it a really really hot set in actual content). Meanwhile siroria/bahsei hits for like 106k. It'll be way worse on a plar player at the 80k dps range who can't do dynamic rotation for the pl burst.

Similar problem for other classes.

I mean sure it was intended to be like something, but if it's not super strong, no harm in keeping it anyway and saying we changed it to proc from these abilities which is what I'm asking for. Just keep it proccing.

Sure one can still use the set, and keep having fun, but it's also about being a team player. My team is great and will be fine with me having fun, but there's also the guilt of holding your team back to have fun while pushing scores. It's not hard to have both fun and good performance with the current status of the set.

As for necro players, lots of poor necro players can't even use it with state of endgame just putting support after support set on them (EC, mk kekw)...

neferpitou73

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I know it’s probably an unpopular opinion, but most of the changes made for the sake of “balance” make the game less fun, imho. If I wanted something perfectly balanced (and bland) there are plenty of other games for that. None of them interest me.

The fun of a good roleplaying game was always finding creative ways to use general mechanics to have fun. In a game of pen & paper D&D, my character once hid inside his “bag of holding” as the ceiling crumbled above him. In Fallout 2, I once used my pickpocket skill to place live explosives in the inventory of a ghoul merchant, then skipped town and came back later to loot his corpse without being mobbed. These were memorable experiences!

I'm pretty sure this is the most popular opinion on the forum. I can't think of a single change they've made in the past year (aside from nerfing Crimson into the ground) that has made the game more fun for me.

Jaimeh

Another golded-out set bites the dust.

Everest_Lionheart

cro25519 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I get that LA was a convenient way to proc it but everyone has access to range and melee skills, and they're going to be in your rotation anyway. That's the way it's intended to work.

It is cheese balls that Necro can proc both conditions with one skill.

I'd get the outrage is it was written to include LAs and now they're removing them. I'm are there are plenty of people who didn't even know they could have been using LAs this entire time.

You lose way too much damage unless you body it and you need to body bahsei which complements the set, so not really that great of an option. The uptimes at execute are sad. You could move wall up, but then you lose a couple of your execute skills + recast wall. At that point why even bother?

It went from like 103k on plar to like 94k. At that point, it's better to use medusa anyway (world first rockgrove groups have used it for everything even trash, plus you can stack fighters guild next patch up for massive spell damage boosts making it even better and kilt + Elemental Catalyst makes it a really really hot set in actual content). Meanwhile siroria/bahsei hits for like 106k. It'll be way worse on a plar player at the 80k dps range who can't do dynamic rotation for the pl burst.

Similar problem for other classes.

I mean sure it was intended to be like something, but if it's not super strong, no harm in keeping it anyway and saying we changed it to proc from these abilities which is what I'm asking for. Just keep it proccing.

Sure one can still use the set, and keep having fun, but it's also about being a team player. My team is great and will be fine with me having fun, but there's also the guilt of holding your team back to have fun while pushing scores. It's not hard to have both fun and good performance with the current status of the set.

As for necro players, lots of poor necro players can't even use it with state of endgame just putting support after support set on them (EC, mk kekw)...

Ahhh see this explains my experience as well. I find DV way more effective on the body as well. It’s my go to set in mobile fights with Medusa right now. I always felt something was off on the front bar to the point where it almost requires Bahsei to save the set.

I have front barred it with Siroria body and it was laughable at best. But body it with Siroria front bar and it’s a nice upper tier set. I wouldn’t call it BiS though, not without Bahsei to compliment it. Honestly as a craftable body set it probably over performs slightly at least on mag. I have yet to try it on stam so can’t comment there.