Why was BoL nerfed?

Alucardo

The most complaints you hear about is necromancers being too strong or stam dks wanting stone giant to be a regular insta cast melee ability. But you nerf BoL into the ground when it rarely worked for me anyway.
Sometimes I'd love to be inside your brains just to see what's going on in there.

Unified_Gaming

Alucardo wrote: »

The most complaints you hear about is necromancers being too strong or stam dks wanting stone giant to be a regular insta cast melee ability. But you nerf BoL into the ground when it rarely worked for me anyway.
Sometimes I'd love to be inside your brains just to see what's going on in there.

It closes down entire range classes/builds like magicka nightblades. It also allows you to reset the fight as you get distance from melee attacks and immunity from range with 1 skill

Zabagad

Jesus - we need another abbreviation for "Breath of Life"

zvavi

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

The most complaints you hear about is necromancers being too strong or stam dks wanting stone giant to be a regular insta cast melee ability. But you nerf BoL into the ground when it rarely worked for me anyway.
Sometimes I'd love to be inside your brains just to see what's going on in there.

It closes down entire range classes/builds like magicka nightblades. It also allows you to reset the fight as you get distance from melee attacks and immunity from range with 1 skill

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. the reduction of group members protection might have been justified, but i am very sorry the nerf to a skill per second renders this morph useless for what it was doing, easy to counter with just adding light attacks, and inferior to the other morph that provides a stun.

Marcus_Aurelius

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.
Tried multiple time and all you achiev is an half skill animation and your char standing still.

Bol/Streak works because they don't need a target but every gap closer that need a target is almost useless in Cyro.
They do not work against a guard standing still in a flag, imagine against a streaking sorc.

Alucardo

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.

That's a pretty poor excuse to nerf an ability into the ground.

zvavi

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.

Game should not be balanced around bugs. Especially since cyro is not the only mode.

ImSoPro

Zabagad wrote: »

Jesus - we need another abbreviation for "Breath of Life"

Lmao

BohnT2

Because it was blatantly overperforming, every good sorc on EU agreed on it since Zos thought it's a good idea to increase the duration and shut down basically any ranged damage at will.

I'm still surprised that Zos actually nerfed a defensive carry tho

notyuu

BoL: Aka Breath of life got nerfed becasue it was the be all and end all of templar healing, to the point where is overshadowed literally all of their other healing capabiltites, so we end up with a stuned directional 30% strength secondary heal of a morph which nobody really picks vs the alternative

BL: aka Ball of Lighting got nerfed becasue no other ability in the game could be abused quite like its mystical ability to absorb 100 projectiles per second in a small raidus around the caster, if done right it could render entire groups almost completely immune to projectile attacks. But if you're grumbling about the fact that it had its stun removed a while back...well, it's a mobility tool that is also a defensive tool and on top of that it used to stun too...seems a bit overloaded, even with the stacking cost.

zvavi

notyuu wrote: »

BoL: Aka Breath of life got nerfed becasue it was the be all and end all of templar healing, to the point where is overshadowed literally all of their other healing capabiltites, so we end up with a stuned directional 30% strength secondary heal of a morph which nobody really picks vs the alternative

BL: aka Ball of Lighting got nerfed becasue no other ability in the game could be abused quite like its mystical ability to absorb 100 projectiles per second in a small raidus around the caster, if done right it could render entire groups almost completely immune to projectile attacks. But if you're grumbling about the fact that it had its stun removed a while back...well, it's a mobility tool that is also a defensive tool and on top of that it used to stun too...seems a bit overloaded, even with the stacking cost.

Not saying it didn't need a bit of balance. Especially since they literally buffed the skill lately. Now it is gutted to oblivion.

Alucardo

notyuu wrote: »

BL: aka Ball of Lighting got nerfed becasue no other ability in the game could be abused quite like its mystical ability to absorb 100 projectiles per second in a small raidus around the caster, if done right it could render entire groups almost completely immune to projectile attacks. But if you're grumbling about the fact that it had its stun removed a while back...well, it's a mobility tool that is also a defensive tool and on top of that it used to stun too...seems a bit overloaded, even with the stacking cost.

Oh no, it definitely should not have the stun, but the absorb is a tiny hitbox that let so many things come through it. I'm still not entirely sure how it works. Someone mentioned if you turn it around it doesn't work??
If it put up a giant wall and blocked a single projectile I'd be like okay, fair enough. But projectiles still go straight through it.

the1andonlyskwex

zvavi wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.

Game should not be balanced around bugs. Especially since cyro is not the only mode.

To be fair, even without the bugs, it still absorbs magDK's non-ultimate gap closer.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.
Tried multiple time and all you achiev is an half skill animation and your char standing still.

Bol/Streak works because they don't need a target but every gap closer that need a target is almost useless in Cyro.
They do not work against a guard standing still in a flag, imagine against a streaking sorc.

Do you even play sorc? In heavy lag, it is a completely unreliable skill, just like any gap closer. BOL/Streak does the exact same thing. You cast, you stutter, and end up in the same spot. We can't balance around lag. It will never be productive.

Also, for the record, I do not run BOL. I always run streak (best defense is a good offense IMO). I do agree with the devs that BOL was overperforming. What I do not agree with, which is pretty much always my balance complaint, is that they probably just nerfed it out of use. The Devs lack any form of subtlety, which is why balance is always a mess.

Furthermore, this is a nerf that is going to hurt newer and more inexperienced players. They are going to log in, get wrecked because their main defensive ability is now 99% less effective, and we are going to hear about it on the forums. Fairly certain that most of the best sorcs run streak.

Jameson18

It was already "redone" in blackwood and was noticeably less effective, but still a viable morph choice. When next update hits, it'll be yet another skill in the list of class skills across the board that are entirely useless.

jaws343

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.
Tried multiple time and all you achiev is an half skill animation and your char standing still.

Bol/Streak works because they don't need a target but every gap closer that need a target is almost useless in Cyro.
They do not work against a guard standing still in a flag, imagine against a streaking sorc.

Do you even play sorc? In heavy lag, it is a completely unreliable skill, just like any gap closer. BOL/Streak does the exact same thing. You cast, you stutter, and end up in the same spot. We can't balance around lag. It will never be productive.

Also, for the record, I do not run BOL. I always run streak (best defense is a good offense IMO). I do agree with the devs that BOL was overperforming. What I do not agree with, which is pretty much always my balance complaint, is that they probably just nerfed it out of use. The Devs lack any form of subtlety, which is why balance is always a mess.

Furthermore, this is a nerf that is going to hurt newer and more inexperienced players. They are going to log in, get wrecked because their main defensive ability is now 99% less effective, and we are going to hear about it on the forums. Fairly certain that most of the best sorcs run streak.

I see more stam sorcs running BoL. Most mag sorcs are running streak because there is no room for a stun and defense is bad without some maneuverability.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

jaws343 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.
Tried multiple time and all you achiev is an half skill animation and your char standing still.

Bol/Streak works because they don't need a target but every gap closer that need a target is almost useless in Cyro.
They do not work against a guard standing still in a flag, imagine against a streaking sorc.

Do you even play sorc? In heavy lag, it is a completely unreliable skill, just like any gap closer. BOL/Streak does the exact same thing. You cast, you stutter, and end up in the same spot. We can't balance around lag. It will never be productive.

Also, for the record, I do not run BOL. I always run streak (best defense is a good offense IMO). I do agree with the devs that BOL was overperforming. What I do not agree with, which is pretty much always my balance complaint, is that they probably just nerfed it out of use. The Devs lack any form of subtlety, which is why balance is always a mess.

Furthermore, this is a nerf that is going to hurt newer and more inexperienced players. They are going to log in, get wrecked because their main defensive ability is now 99% less effective, and we are going to hear about it on the forums. Fairly certain that most of the best sorcs run streak.

I see more stam sorcs running BoL. Most mag sorcs are running streak because there is no room for a stun and defense is bad without some maneuverability.

That is fair. Stam Sorcs in my expeirence usually aren't the ones abusing BOL/streak, because a stam sorc built to streak for long periods cant typically kill much. I really dont have a problem with this skill as is on live, but I do agree that it is a very effective escape/reset tool (perhaps too effective). I try not to chase squirrels. Haha

jaws343

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.
Tried multiple time and all you achiev is an half skill animation and your char standing still.

Bol/Streak works because they don't need a target but every gap closer that need a target is almost useless in Cyro.
They do not work against a guard standing still in a flag, imagine against a streaking sorc.

Do you even play sorc? In heavy lag, it is a completely unreliable skill, just like any gap closer. BOL/Streak does the exact same thing. You cast, you stutter, and end up in the same spot. We can't balance around lag. It will never be productive.

Also, for the record, I do not run BOL. I always run streak (best defense is a good offense IMO). I do agree with the devs that BOL was overperforming. What I do not agree with, which is pretty much always my balance complaint, is that they probably just nerfed it out of use. The Devs lack any form of subtlety, which is why balance is always a mess.

Furthermore, this is a nerf that is going to hurt newer and more inexperienced players. They are going to log in, get wrecked because their main defensive ability is now 99% less effective, and we are going to hear about it on the forums. Fairly certain that most of the best sorcs run streak.

I see more stam sorcs running BoL. Most mag sorcs are running streak because there is no room for a stun and defense is bad without some maneuverability.

That is fair. Stam Sorcs in my expeirence usually aren't the ones abusing BOL/streak, because a stam sorc built to streak for long periods cant typically kill much. I really dont have a problem with this skill as is on live, but I do agree that it is a very effective escape/reset tool (perhaps too effective). I try not to chase squirrels. Haha

If I'm using streak to run away, I am not coming back. There's a reason I am running away.

If I am using streak to re-position, it only works if the other players follow me. Don't follow, and the re-position won't work. And the sorc will have to return to a situation they already deemed unfavorable to fight.

For those two reasons, I really don't see the escape/reset aspect of the skill to be problematic.

Probably one of my favorite fights recently. I was solo at a resource and got attacked by a stam sorc. The Stam sorc kept line of siting stuff, so I used streak to lure him away from the resource. He followed and then found a tree to kite around. So I used streak a few times and lured him out into an open field. He followed. And then I blew him up in like 4 seconds because he could no longer kite around using LoS. Had he just stayed at the resource or the tree, I'd never have killed him. But he followed into my reposition.

YandereGirlfriend

BohnT2 wrote: »

Because it was blatantly overperforming, every good sorc on EU agreed on it since Zos thought it's a good idea to increase the duration and shut down basically any ranged damage at will.

I'm still surprised that Zos actually nerfed a defensive carry tho

That might be their opinion but completely dumpstering an ability isn't the correct remedy to that situation.

I really wish that we could get some more nuanced balancing by this development team rather than the feast or famine approach that they take toward seemingly everything.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

jaws343 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

gap closers. their cost dont ramp up and they deal damage. .

The problem is that gap closers do not work in Cyro due to lag.
Tried multiple time and all you achiev is an half skill animation and your char standing still.

Bol/Streak works because they don't need a target but every gap closer that need a target is almost useless in Cyro.
They do not work against a guard standing still in a flag, imagine against a streaking sorc.

Do you even play sorc? In heavy lag, it is a completely unreliable skill, just like any gap closer. BOL/Streak does the exact same thing. You cast, you stutter, and end up in the same spot. We can't balance around lag. It will never be productive.

Also, for the record, I do not run BOL. I always run streak (best defense is a good offense IMO). I do agree with the devs that BOL was overperforming. What I do not agree with, which is pretty much always my balance complaint, is that they probably just nerfed it out of use. The Devs lack any form of subtlety, which is why balance is always a mess.

Furthermore, this is a nerf that is going to hurt newer and more inexperienced players. They are going to log in, get wrecked because their main defensive ability is now 99% less effective, and we are going to hear about it on the forums. Fairly certain that most of the best sorcs run streak.

I see more stam sorcs running BoL. Most mag sorcs are running streak because there is no room for a stun and defense is bad without some maneuverability.

That is fair. Stam Sorcs in my expeirence usually aren't the ones abusing BOL/streak, because a stam sorc built to streak for long periods cant typically kill much. I really dont have a problem with this skill as is on live, but I do agree that it is a very effective escape/reset tool (perhaps too effective). I try not to chase squirrels. Haha

If I'm using streak to run away, I am not coming back. There's a reason I am running away.

If I am using streak to re-position, it only works if the other players follow me. Don't follow, and the re-position won't work. And the sorc will have to return to a situation they already deemed unfavorable to fight.

For those two reasons, I really don't see the escape/reset aspect of the skill to be problematic.

Probably one of my favorite fights recently. I was solo at a resource and got attacked by a stam sorc. The Stam sorc kept line of siting stuff, so I used streak to lure him away from the resource. He followed and then found a tree to kite around. So I used streak a few times and lured him out into an open field. He followed. And then I blew him up in like 4 seconds because he could no longer kite around using LoS. Had he just stayed at the resource or the tree, I'd never have killed him. But he followed into my reposition.

And that is why I don't chase squirrels. Haha They are either running for their lives, which probably means they arent worth much AP anyways, or they are trying to Kite me into a position that is less favorable to myself. The best 1vX sorcs use streak to string out there opponents so they can effectively fight 1v1, not that that is a secret to anyone.

I have zero issues with streak, whether I am playing on my sorc or fighting one. I do like playing sorc, but I also find them on average to be the least threating class in ESO. Maybe it's because I know how to play them, which means I know how to fight them.

I admittedly can get annoyed with BOL, as it has certainly saved a sorc (or 300) that I threw a burst combo at while they were retreating that probably would have otherwise died. Again, I think being able to absorb 100 projectiles a second might be over the top (honestly didnt even know that was the limit, just what the patch notes say), but going to 1 is going to make most players just slot streak.

I think 2 should be a minimum number per second, which would be a LA and skill per GCD from one attacker. With the limit at one, basically peoples light attacks wont get through, but the skills will land. With more than one player, the mitigation will be lost in the shuffle as it will eat the first random LA and that's it. Streak becomes a significantly better option at that point.

master_vanargand

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

Alucardo

master_vanargand wrote: »

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

Even at 100 I could never get this ability to absorb much. Is there a trick to it I don't know about?

YandereGirlfriend

master_vanargand wrote: »

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

Absorbing only one effect pigeon-holes it into a (weak) dueling-only skill - which is awful from a design perspective.

No group utility, no use when fighting outnumbered, no use against melee opponents, no use against any Light Attack weaving... it's clear that this skill has been banished to the Deadlands until ZOS buffs it again (which means, maybe... two years from now...).

MirandaSharp

Zabagad wrote: »

Jesus - we need another abbreviation for "Breath of Life"

OMG! I was thinking BoL, which dungeon is that?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

master_vanargand wrote: »

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

I don't think I agree with that. BOL is an expensive skill. This means it will basically give 2 seconds of snare immunity and mitigate 3 light attacks with a position change. Why would anyone use that over Streak at that point.

Here is the thing, you might very well be right that 2 would be OP, but we will never know. Whether its 100 or 1000, probably doesnt really matter. Bringing this thing into single digits, however constitutes a big nerf, whether or not its OP to begin with.

In ZOS fashion, they went from 100 to 1, one extreme to the other. Where is the subtlety. Try 5 for a week on PTS, Try 2, Try anything in the middle. But no, they just fried the skill and now EVERYONE will run Streak. That is balance by destruction.

Jameson18

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

I don't think I agree with that. BOL is an expensive skill. This means it will basically give 2 seconds of snare immunity and mitigate 3 light attacks with a position change. Why would anyone use that over Streak at that point.

Here is the thing, you might very well be right that 2 would be OP, but we will never know. Whether its 100 or 1000, probably doesnt really matter. Bringing this thing into single digits, however constitutes a big nerf, whether or not its OP to begin with.

In ZOS fashion, they went from 100 to 1, one extreme to the other. Where is the subtlety. Try 5 for a week on PTS, Try 2, Try anything in the middle. But no, they just fried the skill and now EVERYONE will run Streak. That is balance by destruction.

Exactly.

It was a decent alternative. Either use streak and have both offensive and defensive aspects, or go with a straight escape or mobility aspect.

What's the difference? With BoL, when it was working properly, attacks would get absorbed, dots still tick on you, and a ramping cost. NB cloak ditches basically everything and doesn't ramp.

Don't be crazy, i'm not asking for ramp cost on cloak. That would be utterly devastating and terrible and annihilate the class.

My point is, BoL had enough negatives to it. The blackwood update to it also brought it more in line anyway. It was a conscious decision one would have to make on selecting a morph. Now it's just nerfed into oblivion and will never see use once people catch on to the change. The terrible, terrible, change.

Alucardo

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

In ZOS fashion, they went from 100 to 1, one extreme to the other. Where is the subtlety. Try 5 for a week on PTS, Try 2, Try anything in the middle. But no, they just fried the skill and now EVERYONE will run Streak. That is balance by destruction.

Yup. Well it made my mind up. I'd drop BoL now in favour of the AOE, undodgeable, unblockable stun. Far more bang for your buck imho.

olsborg

BohnT2 wrote: »

Because it was blatantly overperforming, every good sorc on EU agreed on it since Zos thought it's a good idea to increase the duration and shut down basically any ranged damage at will.

I'm still surprised that Zos actually nerfed a defensive carry tho

Yea its not like they will nerf Guardian Spirit tho, since its behind a paywall, but the OG classes has been shafted for years now..

Jaraal

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In ZOS fashion, they went from 100 to 1, one extreme to the other. Where is the subtlety. Try 5 for a week on PTS, Try 2, Try anything in the middle. But no, they just fried the skill and now EVERYONE will run Streak. That is balance by destruction.

ZOS is always swinging for the fences. Unfortunately, they seem to strike out more often than not.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Alucardo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

In ZOS fashion, they went from 100 to 1, one extreme to the other. Where is the subtlety. Try 5 for a week on PTS, Try 2, Try anything in the middle. But no, they just fried the skill and now EVERYONE will run Streak. That is balance by destruction.

Yup. Well it made my mind up. I'd drop BoL now in favour of the AOE, undodgeable, unblockable stun. Far more bang for your buck imho.

Yep, and next patch, streak will get nerfed because they couldnt balance BOL.

zvavi

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

1 is enough.
If it is 2, it is OP.

In ZOS fashion, they went from 100 to 1, one extreme to the other. Where is the subtlety. Try 5 for a week on PTS, Try 2, Try anything in the middle. But no, they just fried the skill and now EVERYONE will run Streak. That is balance by destruction.

Yup. Well it made my mind up. I'd drop BoL now in favour of the AOE, undodgeable, unblockable stun. Far more bang for your buck imho.

Yep, and next patch, streak will get nerfed because they couldnt balance BOL.