Battle Spirit

Nevidyra

Battle Spirit:
Reduced the damage taken bonus to 50% on this effect, down from 55%.
Increased the healing received penalty to 55%, up from 50%.
We will no longer detail the “effective strength” of these changes to prevent potential confusion.

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No, no no no. 55% was too much, 50% is what the community has been asking for on the forums since the PTS changes. The reduction of healing by making the penalty 55% to 50% just negates the entire purpose of bumping Battle Spirit up to 50%.

Please make healing 50% reduced and damage taken 50% reduced. That's all we want. That's all thats needed.

relentless_turnip

I think reducing healing makes sense personally.

neferpitou73

You're looking for logic where there clearly isn't any

Alucardo

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think reducing healing makes sense personally.

How does it make sense? (Genuinely curious)

neferpitou73

Alucardo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think reducing healing makes sense personally.

How does it make sense? (Genuinely curious)

I think ZOS was trying to kill two birds with one stone:

-address the mitigation complaints

-address the concerns about overhealing

My gut is that their changes to healing will cancel out their changes to the mitigation. Although it will be interesting to test in practice.

jecks33

they should also adress single class abilities. There are classes with way less healing than others (stamplar or stamblade vs stamden)

relentless_turnip

Alucardo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think reducing healing makes sense personally.

How does it make sense? (Genuinely curious)

If zos was unhappy with TTK (which I personally thought was fine) they have reduced burst and increased TTK whilst not allowing players to recover instantly. Though damage was high, healing was equally so. Even on my stamsorc I could recover from 10% health to full in 2-3 seconds. So if you lower burst you need to lower burst healing.

On paper it makes sense, not saying it does in practice. Players should take longer to die, but also take longer to recover. With the medium changes nightblades will still rule the next patch IMO.

Sandman929

Another blow to actual healers to help deal with the power of everyone being their own healer. I don't have a problem with the strength of healing, but I have problems with how easy it is, how ambient it is in Cyrodiil and how abusive unbalanced stacking the same few HoTs can become.
I wish healing in this game were something that couldn't just be substituted by running a back bar resto.

Tommy_The_Gun

Currently on live server we have 44% damage reduction and 50% healing reduction.

So we will have 6% less dmg taken (50%), but 5% less healing (55%). It sound "ok" I guess. Probably wont be as impactful for builds that are already tanky, but will give less tanky players tiny bit more time to react.

The only thing that worries me is Major Protection on Flare. 10% less damage taken just for slotting an ability. It imho can have a game - breaking potential build-wise.

Jameson18

jecks33 wrote: »

they should also adress single class abilities. There are classes with way less healing than others (stamplar or stamblade vs stamden)

They nerfed stamden healing into the ground. At least for those that aren't trying to have 40k+ hp.

jecks33

Jameson18 wrote: »

They nerfed stamden healing into the ground. At least for those that aren't trying to have 40k+ hp.

....into the ground.... LOOOOOOOOL

relentless_turnip

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Currently on live server we have 44% damage reduction and 50% healing reduction.

So we will have 6% less dmg taken (50%), but 5% less healing (55%). It sound "ok" I guess. Probably wont be as impactful for builds that are already tanky, but will give less tanky players tiny bit more time to react.

The only thing that worries me is Major Protection on Flare. 10% less damage taken just for slotting an ability. It imho can have a game - breaking potential build-wise.

The only thing that worries me is a elemental susceptibility most likely being applied to you from the moment you arrive in cyro to the moment you log out. This needs to be changed IMO.

Ragnaroek93

They nerf healing and meanwhile magsorc gets a free pass again...

jaws343

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

They nerf healing and meanwhile magsorc gets a free pass again...

They significantly toned down the mitigation provided from Ball of Lightning.

Outside of that, nothing is really too strong with Sorc right now. They melt pretty quickly and the healing changes end up hurting them far more than other classes since the two viable heals they mostly rely on have more of a chance to go to other players when needed and aren't even class skills.

And the class skills that heal either require crit and sustained damage, which sorcs have low crit rate in PVP and sustained damage while trying to defend is not viable. Or they require a cast time and can be interrupted. Or they require double barring a pet, that can be killed.

YandereGirlfriend

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

They nerf healing and meanwhile magsorc gets a free pass again...

The Ball of Lightning change was fairly cataclysmic to the utility of that skill.

It now won't help at all when fighting outnumbered and even against something as mundane as Force Pulse it's only going to stop like 1 of the 3 damage ticks.

It also completely stripped it from having any group utility.

IMO, it's not really worth a slot anymore, which is never a good outcome when developers touch a skill - since it means that they have failed in their attempt to balance it.

Alucardo

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

They nerf healing and meanwhile magsorc gets a free pass again...

The Ball of Lightning change was fairly cataclysmic to the utility of that skill.

It now won't help at all when fighting outnumbered and even against something as mundane as Force Pulse it's only going to stop like 1 of the 3 damage ticks.

It also completely stripped it from having any group utility.

IMO, it's not really worth a slot anymore, which is never a good outcome when developers touch a skill - since it means that they have failed in their attempt to balance it.

The damn thing barely even worked for me. Now it definitely won't xD

Qrähe

Ball of lightning will still be good for solo fights, but it won't be a get out of jail free card. Also it absorbs projectiles and I'm pretty sure force pulse is still projectile so it would be absorbed. Though I never use it so maybe I'm wrong.

It's not an overbearing ability, the fact it was tuned down from 100 shows that it was set up in such a wierd way.

Jameson18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

They nerf healing and meanwhile magsorc gets a free pass again...

The Ball of Lightning change was fairly cataclysmic to the utility of that skill.

It now won't help at all when fighting outnumbered and even against something as mundane as Force Pulse it's only going to stop like 1 of the 3 damage ticks.

It also completely stripped it from having any group utility.

IMO, it's not really worth a slot anymore, which is never a good outcome when developers touch a skill - since it means that they have failed in their attempt to balance it.

Yeah, they basically made it useless. The morph most likely won't see much use anymore. I'll be swapping it out now to get used to streak on my toons prior to the patch.

Jameson18

Alucardo wrote: »

The damn thing barely even worked for me. Now it definitely won't xD

The last change to it already brought it into being competitive to it's morph. As I said above, I myself won't find much use for it anymore. Tactics will change and I'll have to switch to the other morph entirely now.

SkaraMinoc

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Currently on live server we have 44% damage reduction and 50% healing reduction.

So we will have 6% less dmg taken (50%), but 5% less healing (55%). It sound "ok" I guess. Probably wont be as impactful for builds that are already tanky, but will give less tanky players tiny bit more time to react.

50 / 44 = 13.64% reduced damage or the equivalent of an additional 9k resist. That's huge for all builds, even tanks.

Abyssmol

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Currently on live server we have 44% damage reduction and 50% healing reduction.

So we will have 6% less dmg taken (50%), but 5% less healing (55%). It sound "ok" I guess. Probably wont be as impactful for builds that are already tanky, but will give less tanky players tiny bit more time to react.

The only thing that worries me is Major Protection on Flare. 10% less damage taken just for slotting an ability. It imho can have a game - breaking potential build-wise.

You don't need to worry about Major protection on a useless skill. Major protection the way it is now is somewhat beneficial to a squishy character, but to a tankier one, it is not so much due to the multiplicative effect. The more mitigation you have the less effective the next mitigation percentage is.

What I worry about is the loud minority in the forum. If ZOS continues to listen to this forum, they are going to end up with a worthless game, and at the end the majority will leave. My case on point will be the no proc campaigns. ZOS has a great opportunity to find out if the voice of this forum really represent the player base. And you all can prove me wrong. But after everyone and there mothers in this forum asked for no proc campaign, I bet the no proc campaigns will be Empty. Yeap ZOS pay attention!!!

neferpitou73

Abyssmol wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Currently on live server we have 44% damage reduction and 50% healing reduction.

So we will have 6% less dmg taken (50%), but 5% less healing (55%). It sound "ok" I guess. Probably wont be as impactful for builds that are already tanky, but will give less tanky players tiny bit more time to react.

The only thing that worries me is Major Protection on Flare. 10% less damage taken just for slotting an ability. It imho can have a game - breaking potential build-wise.

You don't need to worry about Major protection on a useless skill. Major protection the way it is now is somewhat beneficial to a squishy character, but to a tankier one, it is not so much due to the multiplicative effect. The more mitigation you have the less effective the next mitigation percentage is.

What I worry about is the loud minority in the forum. If ZOS continues to listen to this forum, they are going to end up with a worthless game, and at the end the majority will leave. My case on point will be the no proc campaigns. ZOS has a great opportunity to find out if the voice of this forum really represent the player base. And you all can prove me wrong. But after everyone and there mothers in this forum asked for no proc campaign, I bet the no proc campaigns will be Empty. Yeap ZOS pay attention!!!

It still irks me when people say flare is useless, it's a really good skill when used in the right context. But I've already gotten into that elsewhere so I won't drag it into here.

But everything else I'm in perfect agreement with. If the large guilds in Ravenwatch go it's going to be dead as a doornail. I already know some are leaving. All to please what seems to me a vocal minority in the fandom who will probably abandon what's left of the campaign in a few months anyway when the gameplay gets stale.

katorga

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think reducing healing makes sense personally.

It does not make sense and their dev comment is contradictory and cancel each other out.

By reducing healing taken and increasing base effective health by increasing damage reduction, we hope to see less situations of insane burst tearing players apart, but also similar or less situations where healing supplements your ability to sustain constant pressure.

So end result will be insane burst tearing players apart.

(On the flip side, healing nerfs through battle spirit do not impact groups at all since you can infinitely stack hots.)

Jameson18

katorga wrote: »

So end result will be insane burst tearing players apart.

(On the flip side, healing nerfs through battle spirit do not impact groups at all since you can infinitely stack hots.)

In essence, a wasted patch cycle.

ajkb78

Alucardo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think reducing healing makes sense personally.

How does it make sense? (Genuinely curious)

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Currently on live server we have 44% damage reduction and 50% healing reduction.

So we will have 6% less dmg taken (50%), but 5% less healing (55%). It sound "ok" I guess. Probably wont be as impactful for builds that are already tanky, but will give less tanky players tiny bit more time to react.

The only thing that worries me is Major Protection on Flare. 10% less damage taken just for slotting an ability. It imho can have a game - breaking potential build-wise.

You don't need to worry about Major protection on a useless skill. Major protection the way it is now is somewhat beneficial to a squishy character, but to a tankier one, it is not so much due to the multiplicative effect. The more mitigation you have the less effective the next mitigation percentage is.

What I worry about is the loud minority in the forum. If ZOS continues to listen to this forum, they are going to end up with a worthless game, and at the end the majority will leave. My case on point will be the no proc campaigns. ZOS has a great opportunity to find out if the voice of this forum really represent the player base. And you all can prove me wrong. But after everyone and there mothers in this forum asked for no proc campaign, I bet the no proc campaigns will be Empty. Yeap ZOS pay attention!!!

It still irks me when people say flare is useless, it's a really good skill when used in the right context. But I've already gotten into that elsewhere so I won't drag it into here.

But everything else I'm in perfect agreement with. If the large guilds in Ravenwatch go it's going to be dead as a doornail. I already know some are leaving. All to please what seems to me a vocal minority in the fandom who will probably abandon what's left of the campaign in a few months anyway when the gameplay gets stale.

If it's a totally empty campaign, at least it'll be handy for cross-alliance guilds to cycle emperors through.

DrSlaughtr

Before I answer let me say that I think pvp is in a great place. Combat is awesome, even when you get popped from behind.

Having said that, the damage mitigation stops incoming damage before it affects your health at all. 5% via battle spirit is noticable.

The healing reduction is you dealing with what damage hits and it is over the top right now. Players always figure out how to cheese by the end of a patch cycle and now it's no different. There are numerous immortal templars, necros and wardens running around right now because of their abilities to out heal what damage lands after mitigation.

Though the two issues are tied together, they aren't one in the same.

Wuuffyy

Nevidyra wrote: »

Battle Spirit:
Reduced the damage taken bonus to 50% on this effect, down from 55%.
Increased the healing received penalty to 55%, up from 50%.
We will no longer detail the “effective strength” of these changes to prevent potential confusion.

---

No, no no no. 55% was too much, 50% is what the community has been asking for on the forums since the PTS changes. The reduction of healing by making the penalty 55% to 50% just negates the entire purpose of bumping Battle Spirit up to 50%.

Please make healing 50% reduced and damage taken 50% reduced. That's all we want. That's all thats needed.

Like very happy it was reduced. However this healing change only hurts solo or small scale, not groups. Please just do 50% and 50%. That’s the general rule. Idek what to say. Please.

neferpitou73

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

Battle Spirit:
Reduced the damage taken bonus to 50% on this effect, down from 55%.
Increased the healing received penalty to 55%, up from 50%.
We will no longer detail the “effective strength” of these changes to prevent potential confusion.

---

No, no no no. 55% was too much, 50% is what the community has been asking for on the forums since the PTS changes. The reduction of healing by making the penalty 55% to 50% just negates the entire purpose of bumping Battle Spirit up to 50%.

Please make healing 50% reduced and damage taken 50% reduced. That's all we want. That's all thats needed.

Like very happy it was reduced. However this healing change only hurts solo or small scale, not groups. Please just do 50% and 50%. That’s the general rule. Idek what to say. Please.

Yep exactly. Another case of a change begin made and the consequences being given the bare minimum of thought.

DrSlaughtr

My magplar crits honor the Dead for 28k.

My stamblade crits vigor at 20k over 4 seconds.

A flat percentage reduction hurts my magplar way more and will lead to dying more on that character, as it should. Right now it's an immortal damage machine and I get bored playing it.

shrekt4303

Having a healer vs not having one shouldnt decide a match in bg. Less healing is welcome imo.

ExistingRug61

I'm kinda with @relentless_turnip on this one, I can see the thought behind the changes on paper.

Let's take two simplified cases of combat on live vs with the pts battle spirit changes.
(note comparing live to pts not previous pts to current pts)

Case 1: Burst, where a player does enough damage to another such that they die in around 1-2 GCD, and the defending player takes no healing (ie: due to low amount of time to react and/or using other defenses such as block/roll/other skills).

In this case, the defending player dies if the amount of incoming burst damage exceeds there HP. If not, they survive.
This is a typical low TTK scenario.

Case 2: Sustained damage, where a player is dealing damage over a time period to another, and due to the time the defending player is receiving heals (either their own or from elsewhere).

In this case, the defending player will (eventually) die if the rate of incoming damage exceeds their own rate of healing.
If not, the fight will stalemate.

Now, consider how the changes affect these.
Battle spirit change (live vs pts) means our damage taken has been reduced from 56% (live BS reduction ir 44%) to 50% (pts BS reduction is 50%).
Basically, we now take 50/56 = 89.2% of the damage on pts that we would on live (10.8% reduction).
Likewise, our healing received has changed from 50% (live BS reduction is 50%) to 45% (pts BS reduction is 55%).
So we now get 45/50 = 90% of the healing received on pts that we get on live (10% reduction).

In the first case, its purely damage vs health. Health is unchanged, so it's simply a case of requiring extra damage on pts to burst kill someone in this fashion. Specifically, given damage was reduced by 89.2% from pts to live you need ~12% (1/0.892 = 1.12) more damage to achieve the same burst potential.

In the second case where what matters is damage vs healing, not much has really changed in terms of outcome. Damage was reduced to 89.2%, but healing was reduced to 90%. So if you could or couldn't outheal incoming damage on live, the same will basically be true on PTS.

So as I see it, the changes from live mean that it becomes somewhat harder to burst people, but drawn out fights stay about the same. On paper anyway.
And obviously true combat is a mixture of these cases, but they illustrate my perception of the changes effects.

Edit: The only thing a bit illogical about it to me is that they aren't changing damage shield's BS reduction like they are heals, as they fill basically the same role mechanically, and the above logic could equally be applied as damage vs shields instead of damage vs healing.