Could we perhaps test Minor force on other skills . Trap beast has been meta for too long.

francesinhalover

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Minor+Force

It's been years , all the way since morrowind. trap beast just feels bad to use.

Why can't we have minor force on damage over time abilities like Blade Cloak , Poison Arrow , or other abilities that either buff damage or do damage. or at least add it to unpopular sets that are from dlc dungeons or trials.

Please test it if possible zenimax.

YandereGirlfriend

A Twilight Remedy that provided 20+ -seconds of Minor Force and Minor Berserk would do wonders for the bars of both DPS and healers.

BattleAxe

francesinhalover wrote: »

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Minor+Force

It's been years , all the way since morrowind. trap beast just feels bad to use.

Why can't we have minor force on damage over time abilities like Blade Cloak , Poison Arrow , or other abilities that either buff damage or do damage. or at least add it to unpopular sets that are from dlc dungeons or trials.

Please test it if possible zenimax.

Trap beast specifically barbed trap is a damage over time ability. For stam it’s pretty good damage. Now the psijic order skill that grants minor force doesn’t feel good to use at all.

Excelsus

. Now the psilocybin order skill that grants minor force doesn’t feel good to use at all.

Heh psilocybin.
But its true. Zos should have made scalding rune the magicka minor force but had to sell them Summersets. Stamina gets a cheap dot that also gives them passive ult gain and wep damage. Magicka gets a channeled skill that gets interrupted a lot and wastes a global cooldown... oh.

ESO_Nightingale

Excelsus wrote: »

. Now the psilocybin order skill that grants minor force doesn’t feel good to use at all.

Heh psilocybin.
But its true. Zos should have made scalding rune the magicka minor force but had to sell them Summersets. Stamina gets a cheap dot that also gives them passive ult gain and wep damage. Magicka gets a channeled skill that gets interrupted a lot and wastes a global cooldown... oh.

I'd rather source it from a healer using a buffed twilight remedy

Septimus_Magna

BattleAxe wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Minor+Force

It's been years , all the way since morrowind. trap beast just feels bad to use.

Why can't we have minor force on damage over time abilities like Blade Cloak , Poison Arrow , or other abilities that either buff damage or do damage. or at least add it to unpopular sets that are from dlc dungeons or trials.

Please test it if possible zenimax.

Trap beast specifically barbed trap is a damage over time ability. For stam it’s pretty good damage. Now the psijic order skill that grants minor force doesn’t feel good to use at all.

Yeah, the cast time ruins Channeled Acceleration for me. Its nice to use in dungeons as prebuff but in trails its really annoying to sink your dps by waiting for the channel to end, its even more annoying when it gets interrupted.

I would be happy if the movement speed bonus was reduced in duration but the skill was instant cast. Minor Expedition for the full duration would also be a good option.

DrSlaughtr

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

francesinhalover

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

DrSlaughtr

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

If that were case no one would run them. Minor force is pretty necessary for end game DPS.

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

If that were case no one would run them. Minor force is pretty necessary for end game DPS.

Nobody runs Lightweight or RAT for end game DPS. It’s always Barbed Trap or Medusa for sustained damage, with Channeled Accel for quick fights where you can pre-cast and then remove it from your skill bar.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

If that were case no one would run them. Minor force is pretty necessary for end game DPS.

Nobody runs Lightweight or RAT for end game DPS. It’s always Barbed Trap or Medusa for sustained damage, with Channeled Accel for quick fights where you can pre-cast and then remove it from your skill bar.

I didn't say what is used to get it. I just said the buff itself is necessary.

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

If that were case no one would run them. Minor force is pretty necessary for end game DPS.

Nobody runs Lightweight or RAT for end game DPS. It’s always Barbed Trap or Medusa for sustained damage, with Channeled Accel for quick fights where you can pre-cast and then remove it from your skill bar.

I didn't say what is used to get it. I just said the buff itself is necessary.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

vgabor

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

If that were case no one would run them. Minor force is pretty necessary for end game DPS.

Nobody runs Lightweight or RAT for end game DPS. It’s always Barbed Trap or Medusa for sustained damage, with Channeled Accel for quick fights where you can pre-cast and then remove it from your skill bar.

Lightweight Trap occasionally has been used by zenmk front kiter in vAS, but yeah, haven't seen on anyone else

DrSlaughtr

@WrathOfInnos

No need to be passive aggressive. I'm sorry I mentioned other skills. We wouldn't want to give options. You obviously missed where i said this:

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If that were case no one would run them. Minor force is pretty necessary for end game DPS.

Doesn't matter which source, it's a necessary buff. That's all I was saying.

BattleAxe

No offense intended this just sounds more like a change for the sake of change serving no real purpose.

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos

No need to be passive aggressive. I'm sorry I mentioned other skills. We wouldn't want to give options. You obviously missed where i said this:

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If that were case no one would run them. Minor force is pretty necessary for end game DPS.

Doesn't matter which source, it's a necessary buff. That's all I was saying.

No aggression meant. I’d love some decent options for Minor Force, the current ones all have substantial flaws.

I’ll only slightly disagree about it being necessary. It’s certainly worth having for a dummy parse or a boss like Yolnahkriin. For fights where you may need a bar slot for a shield or heal (Navi downstairs, Falgravn HM, etc), even the good morph of Barbed Trap is the first thing to go. Now that may mean swapping to Medusa/Bahsei to get Minor Force (a viable option), but DV/Bahsei is just as good on some builds, or EC/Bahsei, or Siroria/MK. Luckily Necros in these support sets have tons of bar space for Trap, but for other classes it’s not an easy answer.

With the low crit chance and high crit damage these days, Minor Force is around 3% DPS. It’s nice to have, and I’d never turn down Stalwart Guard, but there are often skills that contribute more than 3% DPS and should be prioritized. Just have to take it case by case.

ajkb78

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A Twilight Remedy that provided 20+ -seconds of Minor Force and Minor Berserk would do wonders for the bars of both DPS and healers.

Can't you just run it on a build that provides two synergies? Orbs and extended ritual for example. I doubt anyone uses it simply because there are better sets available.

And of course there are alternatives to barbed trap - channeled acceleration / race against time also give the buff and without needing to move to melee range and gave your trap t, plus for stamina players they have the advantage of using your off resource thus helping with sustain.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

CA is fine, situational if it's better than barbed trap but it works very well in VAS where CA casts fit quite nicely with kite mechanics. I wouldn't use rat in pve but do remember that's not the only game in town, and rat sees a good bit of use in PvP where the lack of cast time and enough minor force duration to cover a burst window is ideal.

Excelsus

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

. Now the psilocybin order skill that grants minor force doesn’t feel good to use at all.

Heh psilocybin.
But its true. Zos should have made scalding rune the magicka minor force but had to sell them Summersets. Stamina gets a cheap dot that also gives them passive ult gain and wep damage. Magicka gets a channeled skill that gets interrupted a lot and wastes a global cooldown... oh.

I'd rather source it from a healer using a buffed twilight remedy

1. That just creates further disparity between stam and mag access to minor force. Tzogvins > Medusa, Trap > acceleration. Point of this thread is for mag to have a comparable trap not rely on a healer for something stam has base game access to.
2. Most dungeons dont require a healer except certain dlc HMs.
3. Twilight Remedy would become yet another set for healers to lug around and micromanage in trial groups increasing the barrier for entry when many groups already struggle finding tanks and healers due to all the sets theyre required to farm.

YandereGirlfriend

ajkb78 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A Twilight Remedy that provided 20+ -seconds of Minor Force and Minor Berserk would do wonders for the bars of both DPS and healers.

Can't you just run it on a build that provides two synergies? Orbs and extended ritual for example. I doubt anyone uses it simply because there are better sets available.

And of course there are alternatives to barbed trap - channeled acceleration / race against time also give the buff and without needing to move to melee range and gave your trap t, plus for stamina players they have the advantage of using your off resource thus helping with sustain.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

CA is fine, situational if it's better than barbed trap but it works very well in VAS where CA casts fit quite nicely with kite mechanics. I wouldn't use rat in pve but do remember that's not the only game in town, and rat sees a good bit of use in PvP where the lack of cast time and enough minor force duration to cover a burst window is ideal.

Orbs is not reliable since way more players are using Orbs in a group than only the healer. Templar is also the only class that has access to Ritual. I don't necessarily mind shading sets toward certain classes more than others but even a Templar is going to have downtime on the buff unless the Minor Force duration is 20 seconds or greater.

Excelsus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

. Now the psilocybin order skill that grants minor force doesn’t feel good to use at all.

Heh psilocybin.
But its true. Zos should have made scalding rune the magicka minor force but had to sell them Summersets. Stamina gets a cheap dot that also gives them passive ult gain and wep damage. Magicka gets a channeled skill that gets interrupted a lot and wastes a global cooldown... oh.

I'd rather source it from a healer using a buffed twilight remedy

1. That just creates further disparity between stam and mag access to minor force. Tzogvins > Medusa, Trap > acceleration. Point of this thread is for mag to have a comparable trap not rely on a healer for something stam has base game access to.
2. Most dungeons dont require a healer except certain dlc HMs.
3. Twilight Remedy would become yet another set for healers to lug around and micromanage in trial groups increasing the barrier for entry when many groups already struggle finding tanks and healers due to all the sets theyre required to farm.

Having to collect sets is something that utility roles simply have to #DealWith. Arguing against buffs to sets because it might make them good enough to actually see use is backward logic that is harmful to the game. Having many viable sets is a good problem to have.

WrathOfInnos

ajkb78 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A Twilight Remedy that provided 20+ -seconds of Minor Force and Minor Berserk would do wonders for the bars of both DPS and healers.

Can't you just run it on a build that provides two synergies? Orbs and extended ritual for example. I doubt anyone uses it simply because there are better sets available.

And of course there are alternatives to barbed trap - channeled acceleration / race against time also give the buff and without needing to move to melee range and gave your trap t, plus for stamina players they have the advantage of using your off resource thus helping with sustain.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I have always loved trap costing stam on my mag toons because it's saving me mag.

but aren't mag's long range? Is it not better to use https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/race-against-time
It at least gives you status immunity for 2 seconds

You can use Lightweight Trap Beast for range. I only use race or channeled to get speed. But race works perfectly well in a rotation since MF is up 12 seconds. People just don't like not causing damage with it like trap.

It’s not really about whether people like it or not. Lightweight Beast Trap and Race Against Time are objectively a damage loss for the user. You’re better off just not having Minor Force and carrying out an uninterrupted rotation of damage skills.

CA is fine, situational if it's better than barbed trap but it works very well in VAS where CA casts fit quite nicely with kite mechanics. I wouldn't use rat in pve but do remember that's not the only game in town, and rat sees a good bit of use in PvP where the lack of cast time and enough minor force duration to cover a burst window is ideal.

I disagree strongly about using Channeled Acceleration in vAS. Kite mechanics are no reason to stop casting damage skills on the boss, and whenever I see players using it they typically wait until the boss is shielded. This is a terrible move, because it means they are waiting at least 2s before they begin to focus the Protector. As a result the boss stays shielded longer than necessary, reducing the entire group’s DPS.

Asylum is actually one of the few places I’ve found Twilight Remedy useful. It was a lot of work to get mediocre uptimes, but kept everyone able to focus the priority target instantly. Medusa front bar is typically an easier solution in there. Barbed Trap can be used if 2 other damage sets are desired (Bahsei + Acuity or Bahsei + DV are strong options), but keeping high uptimes with Barbed during kite is also difficult.