I never realized how many fake tanks/healers there was until I started playing DD

Arbiter7070

I really don't think this is even an issue in normal dungeons. Now veteran dungeons sure. In fact in normal dungeons I would prefer just 4 DD's so I can get in and get out to get my transmutes. When you queue for dungeons, at this point you should have the expectation of a possible fake tank and at least put some kind of sustain on your bar.

ArchMikem

This is why I always felt a sense of pride whenever I took my Tank into a PuG, even Vet ones. Even though I wasn't the greatest Tank I still put effort into the role and helped many others get their clears.

Also note fake Tanks are much more prevalent. I got legit Healers more often.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

cmon guys, the new week hasn't started yet to start a new topic about fake roles.

To late, fake roles.

We really need the ability to report fake tanks that result in actual bans for habitual offenders.

Tanks in my guild say the problem is not "fake tanks" but that the real tanks avoid using the GF due to the quality of group they would get to often. I have only been around for a few months but I have seen some groups where I queued as a healer and was out dpsing the group while also healing and sending out orbs. This was starting when I still had fairly low CP.

It's true. Those people are dragging the quality of group finder down for everyone. It's a natural consequence of allowing people to feel comfortable with never having to contribute their role.

oddbasket

We've already past the point where removing roles in group finder is more beneficial than detrimental. ESO is already unconventional as in everyone has access to the same tools that can dps, heal or be tanky. Given an adjustment period in a roleless queue, players will sort themselves out. For the ones they can't complete, they'll build into a role themselves or find others who can out of necessity created by a roleless queue, getting them to play and creating more real tanks and healers themselves.

starkerealm

Amottica wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

cmon guys, the new week hasn't started yet to start a new topic about fake roles.

To late, fake roles.

We really need the ability to report fake tanks that result in actual bans for habitual offenders.

Tanks in my guild say the problem is not "fake tanks" but that the real tanks avoid using the GF due to the quality of group they would get to often. I have only been around for a few months but I have seen some groups where I queued as a healer and was out dpsing the group while also healing and sending out orbs. This was starting when I still had fairly low CP.

They're correct. But, it's not the only problem, fake tanks are an issue with the group finder. Low quality DPS are an issue. Fake healers are an issue.

Fake Tanks are the easiest to identify, and the most destructive to group cohesion.

cyclonus11

I PUG as a tank, and I can't count how many times the first chat from a group member is "wow an actual tank!!"

priestnall.andrewrwb17_ESO

Hit first boss; make a judgement call - kick, replace or bail (your free time vs effort required).

CaffeinatedMayhem

starkerealm wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

cmon guys, the new week hasn't started yet to start a new topic about fake roles.

To late, fake roles.

We really need the ability to report fake tanks that result in actual bans for habitual offenders.

Tanks in my guild say the problem is not "fake tanks" but that the real tanks avoid using the GF due to the quality of group they would get to often. I have only been around for a few months but I have seen some groups where I queued as a healer and was out dpsing the group while also healing and sending out orbs. This was starting when I still had fairly low CP.

They're correct. But, it's not the only problem, fake tanks are an issue with the group finder. Low quality DPS are an issue. Fake healers are an issue.

Fake Tanks are the easiest to identify, and the most destructive to group cohesion.

Agree to both. Fake tanks are the worst offenders, because not having a taunt in even the lowest level random normal can be catastrophic, if it's a group of level 10-20 players who don't have CP. Fake healers aren't as noticeable, outside of not casting ANY healing skills. Many players who consider themselves "real" healers still balk when I mention that Orbs/Shards are actually just as important (or MORE important) than pumping out "heals".

If you are going to queue as a tank role without actually being in tank gear, at least slot a taunt. Know how to kite in a small circle so you're not taking the boss out of DPS AoE, or yes, you CAN block a lot of hits on normal dungeons, even in 7 pieces of light armor.

If you are lucky enough to get a REAL tank with full tank buff gear, and two bars full of CC skills - have the decency to let me do my job. Don't run ahead, don't yell when there's 1 small add on you, don't get upset when the boss is taunt immune during a mechanic and charges you (I can't fix that, sorry).

I do wish the devs would do something to encourage more players to have a tank alt... but the amount of work required to level and gear a tank is prohibitive to players who maybe only get 1-2 hours per day to play.

disintegr8

I haven't used group finder in ages but I actually used to take a real tank into them. Only problem could sometimes be the lack of competent DPS.

heng14rwb17_ESO

FAKE TANK AND HEALER MUST BE BAN !!!

starkerealm

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

If you are lucky enough to get a REAL tank with full tank buff gear, and two bars full of CC skills - have the decency to let me do my job. Don't run ahead, don't yell when there's 1 small add on you, don't get upset when the boss is taunt immune during a mechanic and charges you (I can't fix that, sorry).

Yeah, that's a large part of why I don't spend much time in the queue. The DPS running ahead, and people throwing absolute fits that I don't cancel all mechanics.

priestnall.andrewrwb17_ESO

Fake DPS are the worst (since the whole game revolves around DPS)…. It’s like stepping into a war zone with a nerf blaster. It’s gonna be a bad day for yourself and those unfortunate people around you - don’t do it.

starkerealm

priestnall.andrewrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Fake DPS are the worst (since the whole game revolves around DPS)…. It’s like stepping into a war zone with a nerf blaster. It’s gonna be a bad day for yourself and those unfortunate people around you - don’t do it.

A friend of mine last night, randomed into vDoM as the tank, got past the first boss, was like, "group DPS is 12k," and peaced out. Not a great situation, but yeah, low DPS is a problem.

Bealeb319

Most dungeons on normal difficulty don't need a tank or healer and 4 DPS could clear through them pretty quick assuming the DPS are decent. It is obviously not ideal but they aren't going to fix it and people aren't going to stop doing it. This is why it is difficult to find a random group for vet dungeons and why so many casual players struggle in the later parts of the game.

Veles

Another topic about fake roles, how unusual. This is an unsolvable problem, because the game initially removes restrictions: any class can play any role. This fact in itself means that it is impossible to create a monitoring tool to assess the veracity or falsification of a role.

Here everyone will have their own requirements for tanks, for healers. And if for one person taunt skill on the panel is enough to be a tank, for the other one there will require an adaptive support level and absolute build flexibility in relation to equipment. So one and the same player becomes fake for one, and OK for another.

To be clear, I have no respect for players with fake roles. For me, these selfish creatures are below the level of animals, somewhere at the level of worms, because I believe that they spoil the game, and I refuse to accept any explanation for such behavior. This is how I feel about those who do it deliberately.

Most importantly - the reason for this behavior. I had a case that we got such fake tank, it was vet dlc dungeon. At the same time his CP level was not high. We asked him why he had fake role. In the course of conversation we realized that he simply does not understand the essence of the role. And since he saw that other players were doing the same, He decided that fake role is okay. For a month, we trained him to correctly approach his role and showed him the basics of tanking in this game. We helped him get the necessary equipment. At the same time, we did not carry him through the content, he practiced as tank all this time with our tips. Now there is true tank in randoms.

And all this I lead to the fact that you can endlessly discuss this topic on the forum, try to insist on your point of view, swear and disagree with the other side, and then this problem will certainly remain unresolved forever.

If you want your group to be free of fakes - form the group yourself.

ClawOfTheTwoMoons

I enjoy buffing pugs.

DonHardstyle

I only fake heal in random normal dungeons. I do. It want to wait an hour to get my daily exp boost. I tell the group I'm not an healer. And if i forget to tell them, they realize it quick enough when i dk atkeast 50% of the group DMG. I keep myself healed. Incase the others don't have an self heal and die in the bosses.

Summary: just life with it. It will bit change. Slot an self heal when you jump into an rdnd. Maybe an shield. And think about yourself. Release the selfish side of you're brain.

Eiregirl

It has been mentioned a few times on the forums that there is really only one way fake tanks, healers or even dd's in a random will ever be fixed and that would be to make every dungeon absolutely require an actual tank to take damage from multiple mobs and from bosses that is to high for anyone other than a true tank to survive. An actual healer to heal the tanks missing health back up and spread some out to the damage dealers that with the new system have learned they need to let the tank go first or they will absolutely die.

If something like this was implemented it would put and end to soloing dungeons unless it was only put in place for the dungeon finder. Is this something you would want to happen?

If this was implemented what would happen to the dungeon queues? Would this reduce the time for people to get in a dungeon from the queue or would it increase the time.

Zos is not going to implement a ban on anyone queueing as a fake tank, healer or dd no matter how many times they queue that way. They are not going to ban anyone for not having a heal on any of their bars. They are not going to ban anyone for not having a taunt on their bars.

There is currently no normal dungeon base game or dlc that can't be run by 4 dps especially if at least 1 of them know what they are doing. Vet dlc dungeons are another story but even many of them can be run by 4 dps that have a clue of what to do.

spartaxoxo

priestnall.andrewrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Fake DPS are the worst (since the whole game revolves around DPS)…. It’s like stepping into a war zone with a nerf blaster. It’s gonna be a bad day for yourself and those unfortunate people around you - don’t do it.

I agree because it drives real tanks and healers away, leaving them to queue as tanks and healers for the faster queue and then continue to not give a flying flip about group play and refuse to slot a taunt.

Darrett

VaranisArano wrote: »

The "No taunt" part is why I stopped running my DD in random. I'm sorry, but I would be doing a lot more DPS if the boss weren't running out of my AOEs at every opportunity or right up in my face so that I'm basically playing a really squishy tank.

At least with my healer, I can reliably face tank the boss and still keep everyone else up.

I run a 1H/Shield on my healer’s back bar and have a setup that can swap on puncture without a huge loss. I find I run healer/tank pretty regularly. People seem to appreciate it too.

Mitaka211

I just found that some players want their keys, they want their daylies but they don't put the minimum efford and hope the group will carry them. If it's a newer lower cp player it's fine. You can easily have your stuff set up to where all you need between your pvp and pve set up is a gear and skill change(not respec just switching them out). Fake DDs get away with it far more, as a fake healer or tank in a vet dungeon stands out. I can't stress it enough how often i see people in their pvp build running around as dds . Like i am not a pve player but at least i bothered to get my maelstrom bow + Harpooner's Wading Kilt with all gold gear just for dps. Like even i know i am mediocre at pve but at least i know i am not a burden to the group. Due to this behaivior actual healers and tanks almost never bother q-ing for a random group and you get the fake ones.

zvavi

Mitaka211 wrote: »

at least i bothered to get my maelstrom bow + Harpooner's Wading Kilt with all gold gear just for dps.

But harpooners is pretty bad for most dungeons. Well, at least dlc ones.

HertoginJanneke

Veles wrote: »

Another topic about fake roles, how unusual. This is an unsolvable problem...

It is solvable. Moderators just have to lock and remove every topic about fake roles th moment they pop up, because it adds nothing.

Ei8htba11

Veles wrote: »

Another topic about fake roles, how unusual. This is an unsolvable problem...

Remove the role requirement when queuing. No one has to lie, or fake it. Natural selection will take care of the rest. Some content absolutely needs a tank and a healer, let people find out the hard way.

Asardes

Just add a rule in group finder to check your skills before queueing:
- you can't queue as tank unless you have at least one taunt skill slotted
- you can't queue as healer unless you have an AoE or targeted heal skill slotted

AndlatAndometi

It's in issue that's gonna take some time to fix if you ask me. They could put a system in place, but then I can imagen people would find a way to cheat that system, so then that needs fixing. Could increase healthpool and damage of dungeon monsters and increase the defense cap/scaling, so being a fake tank is certain suicide. Though that would then probably bring issues to PvP, which doesn't need more issues.

Always wanted to talk about player etiquette regarding dungeons. Compared to a few years ago, it's pretty bad. And I can imagen that it's not very attractive for new players either. Seeing one guy solo rush a dungeon, seems fun?

Story time!
Many moons ago (4years?) I started off playing as DD, swapped to tank after 3 months for faster queues also I sucked as DD. Learned the ways of the Tonk, Yes TONK not tank. If you tonk your you're doing it right. Anyway, I enjoyed tanking back then, it seemed a lot more balanced. If people were low cp or low level, you'd ask if they've been to the dungeon before, you'd tell em some mechanics, some jokes, some laughs. Though through real life taking over I kinda left the game for a small 2 years.
And when I returned things were different, at first I thought it was just someone trying to show off. But DD were just rushing the dungeon. Mob grouping? tossed out of the window, they'd rather chase a mob that ran off to the healer that's afk at the entrance. At one point I was running Unhallowed Grave as a random normal, a low cp DD was in the group and I asked if he wants me to explain mechanics (for old times sake). To then the other DD saying "Screw mechanics it's only normal" ... I'd have you know that same DD died because of not knowing mechanics...
Nowadays I've pretty much given up on tanking. There's no enjoyment in it, people rush for their dailies just to get their sh*t done. Now I queue as DD on my first character I made (don't suck anymore though). Atleast I still have a time to shine whenever I pull aggro cause the fake tank has bad dps, or they leave because it's a dlc dungeon. Not my problem though.

I am Tonk.

Iarao

MrMazurski wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

cmon guys, the new week hasn't started yet to start a new topic about fake roles.

To late, fake roles.

We really need the ability to report fake tanks that result in actual bans for habitual offenders.

And what will it change? Average time. Queues for a tank / healer 1 min, DD 30 min.

DD population is too large.

If the OP means normal what changes that. They are easy enough that the tank and healer will get bored there, and the 2nd DD has to jump pretty well to get through it quickly. And everyone who does rnd knows how many people have a problem with doing at least good dps.

Vet? Fake roles are the least of the problems. There, the problem is the people themselves who should not have access to heavier instances. - here you should find friends, guilds, from zone, otherwise it's a path through torment.

I too fake role because I'm not going to wait so long for my alt only for RND. I have many cases where my character who doesn't have some endgame setup does 50-60% team dps as a fake healer? I might as well accuse DD of a fake DD role in this case.

A simple solution before you go on to devise some kind of restriction, banning system etc.

Find a few people you will enjoy playing with. I don't know in person "hey dude, you've been fun doing dungeon lately, would you like to do a few rnds sometimes" Simple, you have to start somewhere instead of turning the game system over. ESO is designed in such a way that you can go through a dungeon even in 4 DD. And let it stay that way.

yes 4 DD can do a non vet non dlc dungeon with ease. so find some DD buddies that play at your time. it's what i do. clarification: not too low of a level. not sure how low that is, tho.

neferpitou73

Amottica wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

cmon guys, the new week hasn't started yet to start a new topic about fake roles.

To late, fake roles.

We really need the ability to report fake tanks that result in actual bans for habitual offenders.

Tanks in my guild say the problem is not "fake tanks" but that the real tanks avoid using the GF due to the quality of group they would get to often. I have only been around for a few months but I have seen some groups where I queued as a healer and was out dpsing the group while also healing and sending out orbs. This was starting when I still had fairly low CP.

Exactly

"I never realized how many fake DDs there were until I started queueing as a tank."

MrMazurski

Asardes wrote: »

Just add a rule in group finder to check your skills before queueing:
- you can't queue as tank unless you have at least one taunt skill slotted
- you can't queue as healer unless you have an AoE or targeted heal skill slotted

But do you know that I can change skills / setup after entering the Dungeon? In total, I do not even do that, Cauterize from DK are like heal...

Urvoth wrote: »

I never realized how many fake DDs there are until I started playing tank/healer

So true.. I have one tank and i have leave or not finished more dungeons with my tank than DD. Many times meet group where they cant cap achieve 20k dps... where my tank give them around 500dmg bonus from Yolna nad Assault

Iarao

DonHardstyle wrote: »

I only fake heal in random normal dungeons. I do. It want to wait an hour to get my daily exp boost. I tell the group I'm not an healer. And if i forget to tell them, they realize it quick enough when i dk atkeast 50% of the group DMG. I keep myself healed. Incase the others don't have an self heal and die in the bosses.

Summary: just life with it. It will bit change. Slot an self heal when you jump into an rdnd. Maybe an shield. And think about yourself. Release the selfish side of you're brain.

easy to get a self heal now. just head to cyro and do the starter learner quests. used to be rapids but they switched it and now you get heals.