This patch is a leap into the wrong direction balance wise

olsborg

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Also where are the class changes which you promised? Why is Templar the only class which gets love and the other vanilla classes are treated like they don't exist?

Because they are free to play, they dont bring zos any cash, I think thats their main focus nowadays.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Regarding the nerf to Damage in Battlespirit, what if Healing were proportionally reduced? Does that sound good or bad? This would still be bad for NBs, comparatively - maybe unless Cloak became harder to break, which it might be.

I get what you're saying but imo, instead of countering a ridiculous nerf to damage with a ridiculous nerf to healing, maybe do neither.

Yeah the most nuanced solution to some of the current issues in my view is - a buff to mitigation solely for ungrouped players in No CP, including all 4 members in Solo Queue. Here is where TTK is in fact a bit too low, in my opinion. The pace in CP Cyro feels pretty good post MYM.

That's kind of what happens when you don't run CP. But they could buff it in no cp and not screw over the majority of players.

Right, if ever there were a time to give each mode a different Battlespirit, now might be it.

Still, I'm not convinced, even in CP, if Healing were nerfed commensurately to Damage that this wouldn't be a fun patch. I'm really not sure. Again I'm a DK, so that would probably work out pretty well for us. Outside of this genre I slightly favor Fighting Games over FPS, to further clarify my biases.

I think it's important in debate to confess your biases, and of course to affirm the Socratic Paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

About this one issue, the increased mitigation, if I had to wager, I'd say we'll see our mitigation increased less by the end of PTS, but, I'm still interested in how others think a Reduced Damage + Reduced Healing change would pan out.

Blobsky

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Should leave Battlespirit as is, the new CP will help more than enough with tankyness.
Inner Beast Pve Only.

The time to kill in non-cp/ battlegrounds is close 1 second tho. With inner beast this will turn into a oneshot or be oneshotted duell.
I Think cp potency should be reduced by half via battlespirit that way cps can still be balanced for PVE.

Anyone dying in 1 second in bgs simply needs to learn their class more. TTK is fine for anybody clued in, even if outnukber by an experienced team.

The sad bit about these stupid mitigation and OP skill changes is that the current patch is some of the best balanced PvP in a long time (other than necro and stam warden) - and it's about to be the worst tank meta so far instead.

Brrrofski

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Should leave Battlespirit as is, the new CP will help more than enough with tankyness.
Inner Beast Pve Only.

The time to kill in non-cp/ battlegrounds is close 1 second tho. With inner beast this will turn into a oneshot or be oneshotted duell.
I Think cp potency should be reduced by half via battlespirit that way cps can still be balanced for PVE.

No way is it.

Only really new players are dying that quick, or they get caught off guard by ulti dumps - which is fine. Or they're being ganked, but that's something entirely different.

This is the problem. Instead of people trying to learn why they're dying and combat it, we end up with ZOS taking away our damage and giving us child safety scissors.

And guess what, even with more mitigation, better players will still kill worse players. Those players that barely got kills will never get kills if this new mitigation goes though.

BohnT2

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Regarding the nerf to Damage in Battlespirit, what if Healing were proportionally reduced? Does that sound good or bad? This would still be bad for NBs, comparatively - maybe unless Cloak became harder to break, which it might be.

I get what you're saying but imo, instead of countering a ridiculous nerf to damage with a ridiculous nerf to healing, maybe do neither.

Yeah the most nuanced solution to some of the current issues in my view is - a buff to mitigation solely for ungrouped players in No CP, including all 4 members in Solo Queue. Here is where TTK is in fact a bit too low, in my opinion. The pace in CP Cyro feels pretty good post MYM.

That's kind of what happens when you don't run CP. But they could buff it in no cp and not screw over the majority of players.

Right, if ever there were a time to give each mode a different Battlespirit, now might be it.

Still, I'm not convinced, even in CP, if Healing were nerfed commensurately to Damage that this wouldn't be a fun patch. I'm really not sure. Again I'm a DK, so that would probably work out pretty well for us. Outside of this genre I slightly favor Fighting Games over FPS, to further clarify my biases.

I think it's important in debate to confess your biases, and of course to affirm the Socratic Paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

About this one issue, the increased mitigation, if I had to wager, I'd say we'll see our mitigation increased less by the end of PTS, but, I'm still interested in how others think a Reduced Damage + Reduced Healing change would pan out.

Reducing healing favors specs utilizing shields or evasion or other means of damage avoidance (purge) as their defense.
That's Templar but mainly Magsorc, Stamnb ( not mentioning magnb because it's so trash).
And ofc Necro and stamden as their healing and survivability is so much higher than others which will still be the case after a flat healing nerf.


The result will be that survivability is insanely high especially when you have a pocket healer (as the mitigation prevents you from ever getting bursted) or really low if you're playing a spec that's reliant on healing to survive.

People will either go full tank or full damage with a pocket healer and even fights won't end.
Pocket healer + max dmg vs pocket healer vs max dmg cancel each other.
Tank vs tank doesn't end either.

The mitigation on Pts is simply too high and the easiest way to preserve the currently rather decent meta is by tuning down the extra mitigation to an acceptable value.

Lughlongarm

I also think battle spirit should not be touched.

-Inner beast - should work in PVE only.
-Flare - Can give major protection, but not passively. Give it the same duration as the reveal.
-Add another CP that reduces damage from stealth attacks by 20%.

DrSlaughtr

Lughlongarm wrote: »

-Flare - Can give major protection, but not passively. Give it the same duration as the reveal.
-Add another CP that reduces damage from stealth attacks by 20%.

As much as I hate giving away major protection the first one is perfectly acceptable. Get protection so long as flare is active.

The second one is even worse than giving away major protection. Everyone will slot it (because there are not enough good red tree buffs) which leads to the same conclusion: death to NBs.

Lughlongarm

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

-Flare - Can give major protection, but not passively. Give it the same duration as the reveal.
-Add another CP that reduces damage from stealth attacks by 20%.

As much as I hate giving away major protection the first one is perfectly acceptable. Get protection so long as flare is active.

The second one is even worse than giving away major protection. Everyone will slot it (because there are not enough good red tree buffs) which leads to the same conclusion: death to NBs.

I don't think so, the variety is quite big now. You have the up to 20% reduction vs dots which huge for 1vsX, you have the 10% while blocking or using shields which is must have for Sorcs and some other builds, you have the major protection while CC, great overall CP, you have Juggernaut, and all the other sustain stars. I don't think it will be an auto pick, but perhaps 20% is too much, maybe 15% is enough.

Urzigurumash

BohnT2 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Regarding the nerf to Damage in Battlespirit, what if Healing were proportionally reduced? Does that sound good or bad? This would still be bad for NBs, comparatively - maybe unless Cloak became harder to break, which it might be.

I get what you're saying but imo, instead of countering a ridiculous nerf to damage with a ridiculous nerf to healing, maybe do neither.

Yeah the most nuanced solution to some of the current issues in my view is - a buff to mitigation solely for ungrouped players in No CP, including all 4 members in Solo Queue. Here is where TTK is in fact a bit too low, in my opinion. The pace in CP Cyro feels pretty good post MYM.

That's kind of what happens when you don't run CP. But they could buff it in no cp and not screw over the majority of players.

Right, if ever there were a time to give each mode a different Battlespirit, now might be it.

Still, I'm not convinced, even in CP, if Healing were nerfed commensurately to Damage that this wouldn't be a fun patch. I'm really not sure. Again I'm a DK, so that would probably work out pretty well for us. Outside of this genre I slightly favor Fighting Games over FPS, to further clarify my biases.

I think it's important in debate to confess your biases, and of course to affirm the Socratic Paradox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

About this one issue, the increased mitigation, if I had to wager, I'd say we'll see our mitigation increased less by the end of PTS, but, I'm still interested in how others think a Reduced Damage + Reduced Healing change would pan out.

Reducing healing favors specs utilizing shields or evasion or other means of damage avoidance (purge) as their defense.
That's Templar but mainly Magsorc, Stamnb ( not mentioning magnb because it's so trash).
And ofc Necro and stamden as their healing and survivability is so much higher than others which will still be the case after a flat healing nerf.


The result will be that survivability is insanely high especially when you have a pocket healer (as the mitigation prevents you from ever getting bursted) or really low if you're playing a spec that's reliant on healing to survive.

People will either go full tank or full damage with a pocket healer and even fights won't end.
Pocket healer + max dmg vs pocket healer vs max dmg cancel each other.
Tank vs tank doesn't end either.

The mitigation on Pts is simply too high and the easiest way to preserve the currently rather decent meta is by tuning down the extra mitigation to an acceptable value.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. Not to put words in your mouth but perhaps we could hypothesize: Diminishing Healing proportionally to Damage would disproportionately elevate the importance of Group Healing for any chance of success. Damage Dealers with Pocket Healers would pull even further ahead of Damage Dealers without Pocket Healers than they are now, increasing the gap between optimized and non-optimized, between large group and smallscale - and players/classes not well-disposed to Stealth/Ranged/Avoidance would tank up and we'd return to the age-old paradigm where a DK can't beat a DK 1v1 - which I can say, has probably never been less true than these last few patches, at least since before Dark Brotherhood.

I suppose one way to address potential stalemates in Group vs Group in a Low Damage, Low Healing Meta might be to give the "Damage Augmenter" role more importance in PvP - which would help with some other issues as to how an asset designed for Tanking in PvE should be balanced for PvP - but, that's a complicated task, and it still does nothing for non-Stealth Solo, or for non-optimized small groups - which probably are the way the majority of PvPers spend the majority of their time playing.

There was however that one stat which seemed especially designed to help the survivability of Non-Stealth Solo and Players without a Healer.. you know, that "AFK auto-healing" stat... but then again, that stat was a big reason for the perpetual state of DK vs DK stalemates.

I'm still leaning towards a buff to Shields was the next thing to try to smooth out some of the present imbalances in an otherwise enjoyable and quick-paced meta. One thing about an extremely quick meta, to me, is that it can "devalue" a number of skills in this game. They simply won't be needed versus slotting as many passive buffs for your strongest Direct Damage as possible. That's always going to be true for DoTs when they're underpowered, but at some point, Damage can be high enough that it becomes true even for things like Shields, or Snare Removers, if Damage is so high that they don't appreciably extend ones TTK and aren't worth the slot or the GCD. Not that Damage is so high now that that's the case, but a buff to Shields is a buff to counterplay, a raising of the skill gap, an increase of diversity in viable skills, and a buff to Class Shields especially might majorly tone down the comparative survivability of Necro.

Of course, halving or quartering this buff to mitigation and seeing how things play out is much simpler than buffing Shields.